Individual carbs ?? will it work

[xvok]

So I was thinking that if I get anouther engine Ill have one sitting around... so what better to do then modify it as i rebuild it. this is a thought that I have been having for a while but cant figure out the pros and cons so maby you guys could help me out. I was thinking of doing like an individual throttlebody setup but then one 35m makuni carb for each cylnder. I aredy have the carbs so ideas, thoughts, flame bait?:rocket:

[2ndGenGuy]

Guy in Portland has them. Zufer. It's a fucking awesome idea. It would be badass to see it on the EK1. You really have 4 mikuni's hanging out?

Here's his car:

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56785&highlight=zufer+quad+carbs

[sb_hbackDX]

Oh sure it will work but not without possibility countless hours of tuning...You will defiantly need a wideband O2 sensor, will make things way easier. It will come in handy when adjusting/rejetting the carbys. Plus if you already know how to tune carburetors, especially motorcycle carburetors, the tuning time will also cut down. Zufer got 4 34mm mikuni's to run on his car a while back but not sure of what long term performance gains he achieved...I'm actually currently working on the quad carb project, I have already constructed a intake manifold partly using a a20a3 EFI intake manifold. The big issues with the intake manifold are the vacuum ports on each runner. I tried a few different methods but the easiest seems to be moding the old EFI intake mani...you might have to clean up the previous runners a bit due to its odd oval like shaping so that the aluminum piping lines up for good flow. My current delay is rebuilding the 38mm mikuni carbs...ordered rebuild kits but each are coming in slowly.


Pros---> precise fuel/air metering (ole school EFI), great throttle response
Cons---> lots of tuning time, if you have patience more power to ya!


Also if you have an aftermarket cam (triflow stage 1/2 or delta 272/282) with complete exhaust, then you can expect lots more! I have those but I’m rebuilding the engine with higher compression cylinders(forged rods and such), larger valves and a good bit of head work. The more the merrier! For more detailed answers you should call upon Zufer since he actually got his running…Good luck!

[2ndGenGuy]

Well, you won't be getting a TriFlow cam for your EK1, but Colt Cams will do a mild performance grind on your old cam for probably around $100. Combine that with the Canadian EL1 head which bumps compression and flows better, and you should get a nice little performance setup. :) Just lemme know when you wanna buy that head. Cheaper than getting your EK1 head fixed, that's for sure.

[xvok]

whell the makunis are from school I hellped my teacher take some yamaha engines apart. and he said I could have the carbs so I locked them away in my cabinet (There where alllllllooooooot of dumbasses in auto and power and enegery(advanced auto)) but then the old teacher quit so now not only do I not have asces to the shop (I graduated but the old teacher was cool and he liked me) so now I have to figure out how to get my carbs without getting caught. I problay should just go have a talk with the new teacher there are plenty of juniors and sophmores that will vouch for me. the drawback to that plan is If the new teacher wont let me have them then not only will the lock probaly be cut and the carbs destroyed ( by giving them to the freshmen) I then would have no chance to sneek in unnoticed. so my delema is do I use my moles to leve the back door proped open and go in during lunch and take whats mine or do I go about this by ligitimate means.:violin:

[2ndGenGuy]

Get them however you can!!! ;) Ask first though. If they were given to you, you should go talk to the teacher and tell him they're yours. You don't have to give him the background story, just tell him you left them there. Which you did.

[ghettogeddy]

just have someone in the class go in and get them for u

[xvok]

just have someone in the class go in and get them for u
ya I was thinking of that but A. not sure who I can tell to do this ( people is shop are fun guys but rely stupid IE smoke pot in the gargue let the upper clasmen plasma cut "Class bitch" itnto the back of their leg though that was very very damn funny and Cole the badass who took this punishment without whining might i add was then upgraded from freshman to senior in the shop.though he has class bitch burned into the back of his leg for life.
B. if someone else where to get caught with them they would be in deep shit.

[xvok]

wow speek of the devil my old teacher just called me I didn't even know he had my number apperntley hes teaching the new person what to do. yay but the down side is one set of the carbs is gone so ill need to find 2 more carbs bitches and ho's

[SZfiftyfour]

Well, you won't be getting a TriFlow cam for your EK1, but Colt Cams will do a mild performance grind on your old cam for probably around $100. Combine that with the Canadian EL1 head which bumps compression and flows better, and you should get a nice little performance setup. :) Just lemme know when you wanna buy that head. Cheaper than getting your EK1 head fixed, that's for sure.

Did you ever find out if the EL1 head lined up? Wouldn't you also need the 1.6 manifolds? just curious:)

[xvok]

no we havent gotten round to that yet good thought on the manifolds oh whell if i get this engine in can I will have then anyways

[lostforawhile]

i see you have a 77 datsun z? isn't that one running the hitachi Su setup like on the project i'm running? they are much eaisier to tune and will probably flow all you need. i figured you might be familiar with them already. the 72 and before carbs are much bettter though,like what was on the 510. the problem is though that you need a set of carbs with complete linkages. and probably would need to do what i did and put a datsun manifold together with a honda manifold. i'm not even done with my project yet. and it's been a couple of years.

[lostforawhile]

Oh sure it will work but not without possibility countless hours of tuning...You will defiantly need a wideband O2 sensor, will make things way easier. It will come in handy when adjusting/rejetting the carbys. Plus if you already know how to tune carburetors, especially motorcycle carburetors, the tuning time will also cut down. Zufer got 4 34mm mikuni's to run on his car a while back but not sure of what long term performance gains he achieved...I'm actually currently working on the quad carb project, I have already constructed a intake manifold partly using a a20a3 EFI intake manifold. The big issues with the intake manifold are the vacuum ports on each runner. I tried a few different methods but the easiest seems to be moding the old EFI intake mani...you might have to clean up the previous runners a bit due to its odd oval like shaping so that the aluminum piping lines up for good flow. My current delay is rebuilding the 38mm mikuni carbs...ordered rebuild kits but each are coming in slowly. Pros---> precise fuel/air metering (ole school EFI), great throttle response
Cons---> lots of tuning time, if you have patience more power to ya!


Also if you have an aftermarket cam (triflow stage 1/2 or delta 272/282) with complete exhaust, then you can expect lots more! I have those but I’m rebuilding the engine with higher compression cylinders(forged rods and such), larger valves and a good bit of head work. The more the merrier! For more detailed answers you should call upon Zufer since he actually got his running…Good luck!
i did the same thing to move vaccume from one side of my manifold to the other, i used a later model honda fuel rail. i cut off the end with the regulator,then tig welded an aluminum coupler from aeroquip on both ends. you could get your manifolds lined up then tig weld one of these across them. if you get me the dimensions all the way across,and the spacing of where each port would need to go,i can just make you that part from round aluminum bar stock. you really need to tie each individual intake runner together with multiple carbs. a fitting on each end would give you one end to run vaccume stuff off of,and the other end to go to your power brakes.

[2ndGenGuy]

I have the manifolds for the EL1 head as well. They were included in the price of the cylinder head... We really should check that out.

[xvok]

man you know im up for whenever I might use them for when I have the original block rebuilt still need to find a good running moter for the time being and then canidain carb should take care of most of the reinstalation problems looking to have the crappy moter running by oct nov

[sb_hbackDX]

i did the same thing to move vaccume from one side of my manifold to the other, i used a later model honda fuel rail. i cut off the end with the regulator,then tig welded an aluminum coupler from aeroquip on both ends. you could get your manifolds lined up then tig weld one of these across them. if you get me the dimensions all the way across,and the spacing of where each port would need to go,i can just make you that part from round aluminum bar stock. you really need to tie each individual intake runner together with multiple carbs. a fitting on each end would give you one end to run vaccume stuff off of,and the other end to go to your power brakes.

Ok I must be getting tired because I'm trying to picture this in my head and its not working :lol: So you used a older model honda's fuel rail and cut the ends then TIG welded couplers on both ends...right? Then the part with TIGing the modified fuel rail across the ports...I suppose you made holes in the fuel rail before you TIGed it to the manifold...the fuel rail fit flush against the ports of the manifold? That sound lots easier than what I did...I have fittings coming out each injector port then all running via hose to a plastic vacuum rail for the power brake and advance. Your method seems a lot cleaner :)

I appreciate the offer but I have already made the manifold...but I am making another and as of the moment I'm without a TIG/MIG welding machine. Would there be anyway possible if you have time and if I sent you the cut runners and manifold could you maybe weld them together for me? Along with the rail? There would be no rush or anything and shipping/other materials would be taken cared of...I'm in college as of now and the machine I used I had to return after the summer was over mainly because I couldn't have a welding machine in the dorm :lol: Whatever your answer is I appreciate the consideration.

P.S. Could you post a picture/drawing of what you were explaining hahaha, sorry my brain is drained.

[lostforawhile]

Ok I must be getting tired because I'm trying to picture this in my head and its not working :lol: So you used a older model honda's fuel rail and cut the ends then TIG welded couplers on both ends...right? Then the part with TIGing the modified fuel rail across the ports...I suppose you made holes in the fuel rail before you TIGed it to the manifold...the fuel rail fit flush against the ports of the manifold? That sound lots easier than what I did...I have fittings coming out each injector port then all running via hose to a plastic vacuum rail for the power brake and advance. Your method seems a lot cleaner :)

I appreciate the offer but I have already made the manifold...but I am making another and as of the moment I'm without a TIG/MIG welding machine. Would there be anyway possible if you have time and if I sent you the cut runners and manifold could you maybe weld them together for me? Along with the rail? There would be no rush or anything and shipping/other materials would be taken cared of...I'm in college as of now and the machine I used I had to return after the summer was over mainly because I couldn't have a welding machine in the dorm :lol: Whatever your answer is I appreciate the consideration.

P.S. Could you post a picture/drawing of what you were explaining hahaha, sorry my brain is drained.
if you look right above my signature,you'll see a link to my carb threads,that link takes you to the page with the links to all three threads. there are a lot of posts and pictures on the links,they were put togehter from about 20 different threads. my SU setup already had the balance tube as part of the manifold,what i did was run a modified fuel rail across the manifold,to move vaccume from the port on the left side to the right to go to the brake booster. i also put three taps on that old fuel rail for vaccume accessories. what i'm suggesting is to do the same thing,but use all four ports on the rail,one for each runner. drill a hole in the runner,and tig the port on the fuel rail over each hole. think the fuel rail upside down. exactly the opposite of the way i did mine. that ties each runner together for vaccume. as far as tig welding all my tig welding is done by favors by friends of mine,so i'm not sure if they would do someone elses project.i def can help you with the machineing though.

[xvok]

lol yes the datsun or son of DAT did have the twin su carb setup but my year was the first of the fi oh joy. but for some reason i think that individual carbs would look more dare i say it badass? thanks for the discusion keep it up . as soon as I get some actual parts in I will make some designs up.

[Ichiban]

You will have problems with the counterflow head design of the 2 gen, and how the exhaust manifold is directly beneath the intake. The intake runners will have to dogleg upwards to provide clearance for the float bowls hanging off of the individual carbs, and heat problems might arise.

[lostforawhile]

You will have problems with the counterflow head design of the 2 gen, and how the exhaust manifold is directly beneath the intake. The intake runners will have to dogleg upwards to provide clearance for the float bowls hanging off of the individual carbs, and heat problems might arise.you can do the same thing the datsun desingners did with the SU setup,in a lot of those datsun manifolds the intake would be directly above the exaust,in the original configuration on my manifold,the exaust and intake share the same head studs. they put a heat shield between the intake and the exaust to block radiant heat.

[xvok]

that or wraping the headers was what I had in mind as whell i was thinking of having the carb close to the engine as possiable by kinda tilting the carbs upward ill try to make some quick skechs tomarrow

[Ichiban]

Yes on the EK and EL engines the intake shares studs with the exhaust, and the factory uses a heat shield already. However the bike carbs usually use a bottom hanging float bowl, while the factory setup uses a downdraft carb with a side hanging float bowl. Also, carburetors are designed to function at a very specific angle range, and tilting them to fit will usually cause major problems.

[lostforawhile]

Yes on the EK and EL engines the intake shares studs with the exhaust, and the factory uses a heat shield already. However the bike carbs usually use a bottom hanging float bowl, while the factory setup uses a downdraft carb with a side hanging float bowl. Also, carburetors are designed to function at a very specific angle range, and tilting them to fit will usually cause major problems.this is another reason to use the SU carbs,you can tilt the carb itself,to even extreme angles,and the fuel bowl can be leveled by itself, independent of the carb,it has a fuel tube that attaches to the jet, and the fuel bowl is on a swivel bolt. so the carb is tilted,and the fuel bowl is level. example. : [img=http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/980/enginethisone72dpi1iq0.th.jpg] (http://img514.imageshack.us/my.php?image=enginethisone72dpi1iq0.jpg)

[xvok]

this is another reason to use the SU carbs,you can tilt the carb itself,to even extreme angles,and the fuel bowl can be leveled by itself, independent of the carb,it has a fuel tube that attaches to the jet, and the fuel bowl is on a swivel bolt. so the carb is tilted,and the fuel bowl is level. example. : [img=http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/980/enginethisone72dpi1iq0.th.jpg] (http://img514.imageshack.us/my.php?image=enginethisone72dpi1iq0.jpg)

I had kinda figured something like that would be the case I have yet to get the parts that I need to maseure this out and actualy check clearances and the such but if i did go with the bike carb setup header wrap would deffentaly be in the picture lets see what the canadian exhaust and intake look like then let the relly awkward fabercating begin.

[Ichiban]

this is another reason to use the SU carbs,you can tilt the carb itself,to even extreme angles,and the fuel bowl can be leveled by itself, independent of the carb,it has a fuel tube that attaches to the jet, and the fuel bowl is on a swivel bolt. so the carb is tilted,and the fuel bowl is level. example. : [img=http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/980/enginethisone72dpi1iq0.th.jpg] (http://img514.imageshack.us/my.php?image=enginethisone72dpi1iq0.jpg)


Mr Spock: "Fascinating..."

[lostforawhile]

I had kinda figured something like that would be the case I have yet to get the parts that I need to maseure this out and actualy check clearances and the such but if i did go with the bike carb setup header wrap would deffentaly be in the picture lets see what the canadian exhaust and intake look like then let the relly awkward fabercating begin.I'm not sure about that generation accord, but the 81-83 civics,you could use the canadian version cyl. head. that changed it from a siamesed manifold to a cross flow manifold like 3 g. the cvcc head and manifold is really useless for anything but factory. check with some of our canadian members. i can't remember exactly what had to be swapped,but i think it was the head, the cam of course,the sprockets for the timing belt, the dis, which is attached to the head. and the oil pump drive gear and shaft.which is driven off the center of the camshaft on that engine. this swap might be possible on that second gen engine. you need the intake and exaust manifolds of course too. or you could just swap an a20. if you do that you can go with webbers.

[xvok]

lol i know that cvcc is useless why do you think i got reid of it?

[lostforawhile]

lol i know that cvcc is useless why do you think i got reid of it? I think you would do better with the A20 in that car, it's got more horsepower and torque then what you have now. I think some people on here have done it already. the problem with getting rid of the cvcc on your car,is that it's part of the head and the cam also, only way to truly get rid of it is a different head. even the spark plugs sit in those prechambers on the head. even if you pulled the prechambers out of the head, the plugs would be in such a horrible loction,they would be almost useless. the head was designed to create a swirl effect, the carb introduces a rich mixture into the tiny prechamber the plug is in,then a super lean mixture into the main chamber. the plug lights the rich mixture,the flame front shoots out of those holes in the prechamber,and lights the super lean mixture. the carb is actually two carbs in one, it has a main two barrel carb, then a small carb attached to it. the secondary carb actually is completly independent of the main carb, it has it's own float chamber, and it's own fuel inlet, it also has it's own fuel passages into the head, and it's own valves and lobes on the cam. there is no effective way to get rid of it,thats not a compromise. except for the non cvcc cyl .head. i remember people trying when the cars were newer,I mean serious engineering trying,and they always ended up burning valves. it was common practice then,to take the a20 out of wrecks and swap it into first and second generations. I used to own a kit years ago,that had all the motor mount adaptors and weld in parts,and came with webber sidedrafts and manifold for the a20. God i still wish i had that kit,i could take a ton of measerments off of it.

[2ndGenGuy]

I think you would do better with the A20 in that car, it's got more horsepower and torque then what you have now. I think some people on here have done it already. the problem with getting rid of the cvcc on your car,is that it's part of the head and the cam also, only way to truly get rid of it is a different head. even the spark plugs sit in those prechambers on the head. even if you pulled the prechambers out of the head, the plugs would be in such a horrible loction,they would be almost useless. the head was designed to create a swirl effect, the carb introduces a rich mixture into the tiny prechamber the plug is in,then a super lean mixture into the main chamber. the plug lights the rich mixture,the flame front shoots out of those holes in the prechamber,and lights the super lean mixture. the carb is actually two carbs in one, it has a main two barrel carb, then a small carb attached to it. the secondary carb actually is completly independent of the main carb, it has it's own float chamber, and it's own fuel inlet, it also has it's own fuel passages into the head, and it's own valves and lobes on the cam. there is no effective way to get rid of it,thats not a compromise. except for the non cvcc cyl .head. i remember people trying when the cars were newer,I mean serious engineering trying,and they always ended up burning valves. it was common practice then,to take the a20 out of wrecks and swap it into first and second generations. I used to own a kit years ago,that had all the motor mount adaptors and weld in parts,and came with webber sidedrafts and manifold for the a20. God i still wish i had that kit,i could take a ton of measerments off of it.

They made A20 swap kits for 1st generation and the 82-83 2nd generation Accord? I've never seen one with that swap done before. You'd think that by now we would have found out something about it....

Usually people with the older E-series motors wind up getting the 82-83 Accord motor and swapping them into thier Civics and whatnot. Going from the 1200 or 1300 up to the 1800 was quite a boost, even with the CVCC. What I've also read about, is people doing what we're doing with that EK1, and putting the Canadian EL head on it. It's EXACTLY the same head, just without ANY CVCC stuff. No aux valve, prechamber, aux intake ports, aux valve rockers, or even the aux valve cam lobe.

See this thread: http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62057

The problem with putting the A20 into any of the EK or earler Accords, is that there is NO clearance for the exhaust headers. The front crossmember is so close to the engine block, you'd have to either cut away the crossmember, or route some crazy long-tubes around the side of the block....

Also, if you're running an aftermarket carb, you can block off the CVCC ports without any real worry. That essentially bypasses the lean carb / rich carb setup. There is a guy on PreludePower who actually removed the rockers for the CVCC valves when he swapped his Weber DCOEs on his car. I didn't even know the damn thing would still run without any mixture getting into the prechamber, but it seems to do just fine.

[xvok]

ya looking at the two heads I was imagine that if you rely wanted to one could simpley weld up the aux port in the combustion chanber side of the head and then block all the other cvcc goodies then it would be like a lightend head

[lostforawhile]

They made A20 swap kits for 1st generation and the 82-83 2nd generation Accord? I've never seen one with that swap done before. You'd think that by now we would have found out something about it....

Usually people with the older E-series motors wind up getting the 82-83 Accord motor and swapping them into thier Civics and whatnot. Going from the 1200 or 1300 up to the 1800 was quite a boost, even with the CVCC. What I've also read about, is people doing what we're doing with that EK1, and putting the Canadian EL head on it. It's EXACTLY the same head, just without ANY CVCC stuff. No aux valve, prechamber, aux intake ports, aux valve rockers, or even the aux valve cam lobe.

See this thread: http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62057

The problem with putting the A20 into any of the EK or earler Accords, is that there is NO clearance for the exhaust headers. The front crossmember is so close to the engine block, you'd have to either cut away the crossmember, or route some crazy long-tubes around the side of the block....

Also, if you're running an aftermarket carb, you can block off the CVCC ports without any real worry. That essentially bypasses the lean carb / rich carb setup. There is a guy on PreludePower who actually removed the rockers for the CVCC valves when he swapped his Weber DCOEs on his car. I didn't even know the damn thing would still run without any mixture getting into the prechamber, but it seems to do just fine. those kits were around in 89-90 when the cars were still pretty new. if i remember correctly it moved the engine back far enough to clear the crossmember. it was a long time ago. there used to be a lot of cool honda swap and aftermarket stuff for these cars. but it's all long gone now. :sad:

[2ndGenGuy]

Here's a reasonably built EL motor swapped into a 1st gen Civic:

http://www.roadsailing.com/f-motor.jpg

- '81 1600cc EL (Canadian Non CVCC) Prelude/Accord motor
- 82-83 GK 5 speed transmission (cable clutch)
- Lightened Flywheel (11 pounds approx.)
- Shadbolt reground cam
- A/T Engineering intake manifold
- Dual Dellortoa DHLA 40 Side draft carbs (with 32mm chokes)
- Pace Setter header
- 2" exhaust (non mandrel) to Dynamax muffler
- Mallory 6A CD ignition
- MSD Blaster SS coil
- MSD tach adapter

And this is in a MUCH smaller engine bay than the Accord. It's not all that unreasonable to do a carby swap...

And what is it with Canadians building all the badass old E-series motors? There is a Canadian company (www.raceenergy.net) who built a full-race 1976 civic. They built the old 1300 to put out over 175hp @ 10,000RPM! These things have more potential than most people realize.

[xvok]

that is so badass links to the car plz

[2ndGenGuy]

that is so badass links to the car plz

www.roadsailing.com

[xvok]

crazy jakson usted to make a turbo setup for the ek very nice how much