Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 42

Thread: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

  1. #1
    LX User AC439's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Vehicle
    86 LXi
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    447

    Question Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    Guys, I'm still troubleshooting the engine vibration issue (at a certain rpm under load). I disabled the EGR (unplug the vacuum from EGR and plug the hose) for a quick test and made no difference. So I went to test my next theory - "Possible messed up ignition timing"

    I know my timing is definitely out of factory spec and more advanced then it is supposed to be. The mechanical advance is original and worn out. I did the lazy man (or poor man) dizzy rebuild already but noticed the two pins (weights pulled by the springs) sort of worn out and loose. I did asked this before about an Ebay unit and sort of pending getting it but now I think I should get it.

    So I retarded the base timing by rotating the dizzy clockwise a little. The vibration decreased and became less noticeable. But I wanted to know how off my base timing is so I pulled out the good old timing gun. With engine at operating temp, rpm about 750 and both vacuum hoses connected, I could not see the timing mark on the flywheel. So I retarded the timing more (clockwise rotation) until I hit the dead stop. I finally see the edge of the timing mark plate in the little window and the three close marks (the middle is 15 BTDC). But it is still way advanced from the pointer. I looked at the graphic of the flywheel and estimate my timing is probably close to 24-25 BTDC !

    I think I am going to order the dizzy from Ebay but with this much advance timing, is it safe to keep driving with this much advanced timing ? (Yeah, I know I have been driving this for a while but don't want to do more harm to it)

    - AC



  2. #2

    Dr_Snooz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Vehicle
    1989 Accord LX-i
    Location
    Fresno, California
    Posts
    9,275

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    I'll just say that pinging is hard too hear in these cars...

  3. #3
    LX User AC439's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Vehicle
    86 LXi
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    447

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    I have been thinking the vibration is actually ping. That's why I start going down the path of ignition timing. I further retarded the timing and today the car has even less vibration. I think I am going to order that dizzy and get it replaced and set the timing to spec.

  4. #4
    LX User
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Vehicle
    88 DX 5spd sedan 171Kmiles, 1 owner, stock
    Posts
    294

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    Is there any chance your timing belt is off a notch or 2?

  5. #5
    LX User AC439's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Vehicle
    86 LXi
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    447

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    I am sure timing belt is fine. When I changed the head gasket few years ago, I worked with a mechanic friend and we were making sure the belt was put back on correctly. Car back then ran fine after head gasket change.

  6. #6
    2.0Si User
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Vehicle
    88 LXi
    Location
    Knoxville TN
    Posts
    3,842

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AC439 View Post
    I am sure timing belt is fine. When I changed the head gasket few years ago, I worked with a mechanic friend and we were making sure the belt was put back on correctly. Car back then ran fine after head gasket change.

    Besides what been said you can drive around in a parking garage or tunnel and hear a car pinging better.

    I think you should be checking the timing with BOTH hoses plugged car fully warmed up and idle set to factory.
    1988 Lxi owner since August 1995
    336k miles running strong!
    Now running E85.

    My Acura Type R front brake thread

    https://www.3geez.com/forum/showthrea...r+brake+option

  7. #7
    LX User AC439's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Vehicle
    86 LXi
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    447

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    I will verify that too with car warmed up and at idle. I think with both hoses removed and plugged, the timing should be around 4 BTDC. With both hoses connected, timing should be at the mark which is 15 +- 2 degrees.

  8. #8

    Dr_Snooz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Vehicle
    1989 Accord LX-i
    Location
    Fresno, California
    Posts
    9,275

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldblueaccord View Post
    Besides what been said you can drive around in a parking garage or tunnel and hear a car pinging better.

    I think you should be checking the timing with BOTH hoses plugged car fully warmed up and idle set to factory.
    x2. That's how I figured out that mine was pinging.
    Dr_Snooz

    "I like to take hammers, and just break stuff, just break stuff." - Beavis


    1989 Honda Accord LX-i Coupe, 215k miles, MT swap, rear disc swap

    Can't see my car? Install the "photobucket embed fix" Add-On in your Firefox browser.

    Shop manual downloads available here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vtyhl48z5...udl0xk_Oa?dl=0

  9. #9
    LX User AC439's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Vehicle
    86 LXi
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    447

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    [EDIT: Found my old thread about timing confusion here - https://www.3geez.com/forum/3geez-ac...confusion.html, I think the below info is correct]]

    I would like to clarify real quick about timing with hoses connected and disconnected cause the FSM is kind of confusing. I remember I asked this before and general consent here is -

    FI Accord:
    Engine idle, engine warmed up, hoses disconnected and all vacuum connections plugged - about 4 BTDC

    Engine idle, engine warmed up, hoses connected to vacuum advance - 15 BTDC (pointer should align to the center long timing mark on flywheel)

    Correct ?
    Last edited by AC439; 07-14-2018 at 03:37 AM.

  10. #10

    Dr_Snooz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Vehicle
    1989 Accord LX-i
    Location
    Fresno, California
    Posts
    9,275

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    The short answer is yes; that's correct. I think the 15 degree number varies depending on what part of the world you're in, your altitude, your local smog laws, whether you have a carb, etc. You're supposed to refer to your underhood label for the actual figure, but yes, as a general rule, 15 degrees with the vacuum lines connected.

    The real question is: what mark on the flywheel is 4 degrees? The manual doesn't say and I have only educated guesses from looking at it. I THINK it was the green dot on my old AT drive plate. My MT flywheel came with no marks, so I copied them from the old drive plate. I hope I was right.
    Dr_Snooz

    "I like to take hammers, and just break stuff, just break stuff." - Beavis


    1989 Honda Accord LX-i Coupe, 215k miles, MT swap, rear disc swap

    Can't see my car? Install the "photobucket embed fix" Add-On in your Firefox browser.

    Shop manual downloads available here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vtyhl48z5...udl0xk_Oa?dl=0

  11. #11
    2.0Si User
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Vehicle
    88 LXi
    Location
    Knoxville TN
    Posts
    3,842

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    yeah I agree its 4 and 15. But like snooze said the 4 isnt marked. The 15 is the red.

    Reason I say disconnect the advance on any car when your suspecting timing problems Is just like you said your advance is suspect to start with.

    the carb cars list 24 degrees.

    My opinion on to much advance is these motors are stout there shouldnt much short term problems only long term bearing and pistion wear. If it was say my 6.4L hemi there is cause for concern theyll bust the ring lands easy.

    Quick fix is run 20% E85 to 87 and call it good it will cover the pinging and youll come out ahead in power and mileage.
    Last edited by Oldblueaccord; 07-15-2018 at 01:12 AM.
    1988 Lxi owner since August 1995
    336k miles running strong!
    Now running E85.

    My Acura Type R front brake thread

    https://www.3geez.com/forum/showthrea...r+brake+option

  12. #12
    2.0Si User
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Vehicle
    88 LXi
    Location
    Knoxville TN
    Posts
    3,842

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    1988 Lxi owner since August 1995
    336k miles running strong!
    Now running E85.

    My Acura Type R front brake thread

    https://www.3geez.com/forum/showthrea...r+brake+option

  13. #13
    LX User AC439's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Vehicle
    86 LXi
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    447

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    Yeah I saw this pic too. Mine (AT) I think has T for TDC and also the three marks being center one is longest and labeled 15. My label under the hood is long gone.

    Currently, I have the carb vacuum advance on the FI dizzy (long story short - Rockauto issue, they listed as fit, just like the front engine mount). And I have manually verified the vacuum advance has no leak and operational using a vacuum pump.

    I do remember the shaft on the vacuum adv can be rotated for the length so I can still try to do some adjustment and see if I can get the base timing right. Maybe I should lengthen it so it will retard it a little further hopefully I can get the timing back within or at least close to spec.....
    Last edited by AC439; 07-16-2018 at 02:23 AM.

  14. #14

    Dr_Snooz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Vehicle
    1989 Accord LX-i
    Location
    Fresno, California
    Posts
    9,275

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    Do you suppose that advance pot is causing your problem? It could be over-advancing or who knows what.
    Dr_Snooz

    "I like to take hammers, and just break stuff, just break stuff." - Beavis


    1989 Honda Accord LX-i Coupe, 215k miles, MT swap, rear disc swap

    Can't see my car? Install the "photobucket embed fix" Add-On in your Firefox browser.

    Shop manual downloads available here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vtyhl48z5...udl0xk_Oa?dl=0

  15. #15
    LX User AC439's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Vehicle
    86 LXi
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    447

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    Yeah, this is what I'm trying to figure it out. But I remember I had also messed with rotating the shaft (shortening it) on the vacuum advance so I could have caused the problem. At that time, I did not use a timing light (bad me).

    I rotated the shaft one turn to extend it and put it back (without adjusting the dizzy body), car vibrates even less. Must less noticeable while engine cold, little more noticeable when warmed up. Next step is to disconnect hoses and plugs them all and check base timing....

  16. #16

    Dr_Snooz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Vehicle
    1989 Accord LX-i
    Location
    Fresno, California
    Posts
    9,275

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    Does a new Richporter dizzie sound real good right now?
    Dr_Snooz

    "I like to take hammers, and just break stuff, just break stuff." - Beavis


    1989 Honda Accord LX-i Coupe, 215k miles, MT swap, rear disc swap

    Can't see my car? Install the "photobucket embed fix" Add-On in your Firefox browser.

    Shop manual downloads available here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vtyhl48z5...udl0xk_Oa?dl=0

  17. #17
    LX User AC439's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Vehicle
    86 LXi
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    447

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    New dizzy ordered. Will be here a few days....

  18. #18
    LX User AC439's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Vehicle
    86 LXi
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    447

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    New dizzy arrived and installed. Pics are comparison between the original (left) and the ebay unit (right).

    I tested the vacuum advance on the new unit before installation. However, the new unit's timing is way off even within the adjustable range. The 15+-2 mark cannot be seen with vacuum attached. I then disconnected vacuum and plugged them, I was able to see the 15+-2 mark but I had to rotate the dizzy all the way clockwise until it hit the stop. The base timing (with vacuum disconnected and plugged) is estimated to be around 10 to 11 BTDC. I left it this way and reconnected vacuum hoses and went for a driving test.

    Road test seems ok. There is still little vibration around 2000 rpm but it is less now. The vacuum advance on the new unit is metal and it is not flushed to the body of the dizzy. I think I can fiddle around it so as to make the ignitor plate (the plate that the vacuum advance moves) further retard to base timing around 4 BTDC.

    Will update when I can get to it.....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails -dsc04586-jpg   -dsc04587-jpg   -dsc04588-jpg   -dsc04589-jpg  

  19. #19

    Dr_Snooz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Vehicle
    1989 Accord LX-i
    Location
    Fresno, California
    Posts
    9,275

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    Are you sure you didn't jump a timing belt tooth?
    Dr_Snooz

    "I like to take hammers, and just break stuff, just break stuff." - Beavis


    1989 Honda Accord LX-i Coupe, 215k miles, MT swap, rear disc swap

    Can't see my car? Install the "photobucket embed fix" Add-On in your Firefox browser.

    Shop manual downloads available here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vtyhl48z5...udl0xk_Oa?dl=0

  20. #20
    LX User AC439's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Vehicle
    86 LXi
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    447

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    Yes, I'm perfectly sure. When I did the head gasket, I marked the timing belt against the cam gear. Then I slides it off. When I reinstalled, I matched the marks and slides back on the belt. At that time, the car ran fine just like before.

    With the eBay dizzy, I'm not surprised if its not calibrate. With that said, the old dizzy timing was off but not that much off compared to the eBay dizzy so I am pretty certain there is not one teeth off the belt.

    But, like I said, I will investigate more on that to see how much tweaking I would need to bring it in spec.

    p.s. My other theory is the new dizzy might have been calibrated to be able to adjust to 15 BTDC with vacuum advance DISABLED/PLUGGED (even Haynes manual said this way). This has been the most confusing part for our ignition timing and have been largely discusses here.
    Last edited by AC439; 07-27-2018 at 02:34 AM. Reason: Auto correction messed it up

  21. #21
    LX User AC439's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Vehicle
    86 LXi
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    447

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    Well, worked on car this morning.... As you can see in the first pic, there is a gap between vacuum adv and body of dizzy. I removed the vacuum advance and refitted it to reduce the gap. I also rotate the shaft on the vacuum advance one turn to extend it. These two retarded the ignitor plate further so I can see my timing mark (warmed up, 750 rpm, vacuum connected) but it is still a bit advance. I estimated to be around 20 BTDC at this time.

    Road test ok, car runs with slight vibration (2000 rpm) still but kind of feeling a little sluggish now. I believe I have been running way advance timing for a while and now its closer to normal.

    2nd pic is after the adjustment to reduce the gap. Third pic is the home position of the ignitor plate.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails -dsc04591-jpg   -dsc04592-jpg   -dsc04593-jpg  

  22. #22

    Dr_Snooz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Vehicle
    1989 Accord LX-i
    Location
    Fresno, California
    Posts
    9,275

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    Very interesting...
    Dr_Snooz

    "I like to take hammers, and just break stuff, just break stuff." - Beavis


    1989 Honda Accord LX-i Coupe, 215k miles, MT swap, rear disc swap

    Can't see my car? Install the "photobucket embed fix" Add-On in your Firefox browser.

    Shop manual downloads available here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vtyhl48z5...udl0xk_Oa?dl=0

  23. #23
    LX User AC439's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Vehicle
    86 LXi
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    447

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    So I have just done more work. First, I manually rotated the crank to make the sure the UP mark on cam is pointing up and the two timing marks aligned with the valve cover surface as in page 6-16. I then threw a light into the ignition timing windows to verify it is indeed at the TDC mark. This ruled out the possibility of timing belt off a teeth.

    I recall when I checked the head bolts before, the center two bolts were a little loose so I did tighten them. My theory is I could have over-tightened them (I didn't have a torque wrench then) and possibly wrap the head a little (being the middle tighten down too much). I have since bought a torque wrench and torqued them accordingly to the manual but the vibration still there. So I did something a little risky and torqued the outer bolts a little harder leaving the middle two untouched. I was hoping this will "straighten" out the head if my theory was right. I also tightened the 10 bolts holding the cam, some were able to be tightened a little more than the other.

    Road test of 10 mins shows it indeed vibrates less. There is still some but a lot less pronounce.

    My next thing is to take apart the old dizzy and see if I could repair the two weight pins with sleeves so it will rotate freely and better. The flea bay dizzy seems ok for now but if I can totally restore the OEM unit, I rather use the original. At least car now is more drive-able. I really hate that vibration at 2k rpm since this is where the engine runs most of the time.

  24. #24

    Dr_Snooz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Vehicle
    1989 Accord LX-i
    Location
    Fresno, California
    Posts
    9,275

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    DBMaster had the same problem with the advance weights and fixed it somehow. I don't recall whether he posted anything about it though. Might be worth a search if you need ideas.
    Dr_Snooz

    "I like to take hammers, and just break stuff, just break stuff." - Beavis


    1989 Honda Accord LX-i Coupe, 215k miles, MT swap, rear disc swap

    Can't see my car? Install the "photobucket embed fix" Add-On in your Firefox browser.

    Shop manual downloads available here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vtyhl48z5...udl0xk_Oa?dl=0

  25. #25
    LX User AC439's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Vehicle
    86 LXi
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    447

    Re: Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

    I saw his posting about this as well but I might have to look around here in Lowes or HD (doubt if they have anything like that or I have to go to hobby shops like those selling remote control cars or plane etc. I also have an idea of getting one of those extendable/retrackable radio antenna and the metal tubes might have a section that fits.

    p.s. I just teared apart the original dizzy and only able to get to the point to get the springs off. The shaft won't come off and cannot get the advance weight off. They are both loose but seems like the bushings for the weights are still intact. I'm not sure if I want to mess around with that....

    I also pulled vacuum on the VC (incorrect fit, bought from rockauto for carb) and noticed the movement of this VC seems less than the new metal VC from the flea bay unit with same amount of vacuum applied....
    Last edited by AC439; 07-29-2018 at 12:37 PM.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-24-2015, 05:14 PM
  2. new pics (MAY be dangerous to 56k)
    By B16 ED9 in forum Classic Honda Pics & Videos
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 06-17-2007, 10:49 PM
  3. Ignition Timing Q
    By visionguru in forum 3geez Accords
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 09-03-2006, 08:45 PM
  4. Ignition timing
    By Sabz5150 in forum Performance
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-12-2002, 03:14 PM
  5. Ignition Timing. 88 LXI
    By flexsource in forum 3geez Accords
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 05-10-2002, 12:10 PM

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
VigLink badge