Valve Noise (before and after adjustment)

[niles]

I may have messed something up here folks.

My engine (218k) has always had a tick, which annoys me. I noticed it seemed louder than usual, so I adjusted my valves and it didn't help.

So, anyone that has damaged their valves or repaired valves, what does this sound like to you? It seems too loud to be a fuel injector, and the valves are in spec. I did not see any cam damage when I was adjusting, but removing the cam would yield be a better inspection. And it runs good and strong otherwise.

Some other symptoms that might be related are a misfire on a cold start, and uneven idle.

Any suggestions or advice would be helpful.


http://youtu.be/d_qbHNWw1yk

[conozo]

Im not sure but it does sound loud to me. How is your timing, chech for vacuume leaks, can you get a stethescope or screwdriver to pinpoint where the loud clicking/ ticking is coming from, also you could do a compression test

[Hazwan]

I don't know about you but when I adjusted mine I made it sound worse. Readjusted again and its gone. Maybe double check your valve clearance again?

[niles]

Im not sure but it does sound loud to me. How is your timing, chech for vacuume leaks, can you get a stethescope or screwdriver to pinpoint where the loud clicking/ ticking is coming from, also you could do a compression test

Timing was good last time I checked, about two months ago. I will recheck. I was planning to do some screwdriver listening tonight to hopefully narrow it down to which cylinder. I have always wondered what my compression is like, I'd have to rent a tester in order to do that.
So the compression test would show if the valve is seating properly, right?


I don't know about you but when I adjusted mine I made it sound worse. Readjusted again and its gone. Maybe double check your valve clearance again?

I have adjusted my valves several times over the last few years, and I usually have to do it more than once too. Why is this, is it my skills? It just seems that once should be enough.

So I am just afraid of a burnt/bent valve or improper seating. Is that something that is audibly different than just being out of spec? Could adding the headers this winter have affected anything? (I have been enjoying the added performance)

While I'm asking a bunch of questions; who all puts RTV on the valve cover gasket corners next to the cam? I do, but redoing the RTV makes valve adjusting a little extra inconvenient.

[conozo]

I think you might have your best luck listening to it to narrow it down to the location.

Here is a website that tells you about compression test Cylinder Compression Test: Camshaft Timing (http://www.freeasestudyguides.com/compression-test-camshaft-timing.html)

Might want to skip the RTV while you get this sorted out. A new gasket will stay pliable for a while so no need to replace it every time you take it off.

[Dr_Snooz]

Are you sure it isn't an exhaust leak?

[niles]

I'm not sure of much at this point. I did a good listen yesterday with a screwdriver and I'm pretty sure its either a valve or a fuel injector. But I'm leaning towards a valve on cylinder 4. Would an exhaust leak be able to sound like a tick? I always thought it would be more of a hiss.

Riding my bike to work today so I can recheck my valve lash tonight.

[Oldblueaccord]

Timing was good last time I checked, about two months ago. I will recheck. I was planning to do some screwdriver listening tonight to hopefully narrow it down to which cylinder. I have always wondered what my compression is like, I'd have to rent a tester in order to do that.
So the compression test would show if the valve is seating properly, right?



I have adjusted my valves several times over the last few years, and I usually have to do it more than once too. Why is this, is it my skills? It just seems that once should be enough.

So I am just afraid of a burnt/bent valve or improper seating. Is that something that is audibly different than just being out of spec? Could adding the headers this winter have affected anything? (I have been enjoying the added performance)

While I'm asking a bunch of questions; who all puts RTV on the valve cover gasket corners next to the cam? I do, but redoing the RTV makes valve adjusting a little extra inconvenient.


Look your valve springs and cam over closely when you take the valve cover off tonight.

An exhaust leak will sound like a sharp tick and esp. if you have headers on. Look for black soot around the gaskets or feel with your hand while its running,first started, you may feel the leak with the back of your hand close to the header but of course not on it. The header itself could have developed a leak around the flange. Headers are just thin metal so they amplify motor noises. If you ever hear a solid cammed domestic motor run you'll see what I mean.

Valve adjustment is a feel thing its what your comfortable with. If your sure your on the base circle (low spot) on the cam then Im sure you are close enough. I do a slight drag on the feeler gauge with them set right at the middle of the spec. I have been told I set mine too loose by a reputable Honda mechanic but I'm right on 330k miles with no head work. I dont even check them anymore they havent moved in 200k miles or more. I set up machinery all the time to specs and Ill tell you every guy has a way so don't freak out to much about it.


EDIT: somewhere on you tube there is a short vid of my car running search around if might help you. I do no it sounds more "clacky" on the vid then in real life. The mic just catches the sound different.

[niles]

Awesome, thanks for all the advice guys. I am new to headers, and honestly I wish they weren't so noisey lol. Like you said, Oldblue, engine noise definitely increased after installation.

I will report back my results tonight or tomorrow morning after rechecking my valve lash. What should I look for with the valve springs inspection, play, damaged retainers? And I will give a closer look at the cam, I haven't really paid much attention to it other than a glance.

I will probably be in the market for a new head someday anyway for the follwing reasons:
1) stripped exhaust stud threads on the whole bottom row (not by me btw lol), so Dr_Snooz & Oldblue could be right about that. Also this made the header intall a bitch. Someone put the studs in backwards somewhere along the line for some reason.
2) 218K miles on the current head
3) messed up spark plug threads on cylinder 1, each time a new spark plug goes in could be the last


Off topic a little: I don't recommend GP Sorenson fuel injectors. Two were bad out of the box when I replaced all four of mine over a year ago. This is also why I am blaming an injector as a possible problem source of my current issue, and it may also be the reason I have a cold-start misfire. I will check their resistances tonight as well, but even if the coil of the injector is intact, there may be something mechanically wrong with the injector on cylinder 4. I hope the problem is the injector so I can go to Pick-N-Pull, get a set of OEM injectors and just throw that $200 I blew on GP Sorenson in the trash. I get why all new injectors have a 1-year warranty but then the OEM injectors last for 25 years! Rant over.

[niles]

Rechecked my valves. They were all good, except for the exhaust valves on 3 and 4 were a little tight still. I was shooting for middle-of-the-road in tolerance and the tight ones were near the minimum tolerance, still within spec more or less.

A readjustment did help the noise however. I may recheck again after a good drive cycle. The higher RPM tick is still there though. I will probably pick up an OEM fuel injector from Pick-N-Pull on Saturday so I can see if that's the problem, can't go wrong for $7.50 lol. And if the engines I see have low enough mileage I just might pick up an extra head while I'm at it.

All the retainers looked good. I didn't really feel too much wiggle on the valve springs when I was checking. Which lead me to wonder; should there be any wiggle at all?

Upon cam inspection I saw the below pictures on cyl. 3 exhaust valve. The lobe is pitted and there's corresponding dark stuff on the side of the lobe. Is this acceptable? I don't really know that much about cams.

http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a607/NilesHenke/Honda/DSC_0190_zpsp5jpbwbn.jpg

http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a607/NilesHenke/Honda/DSC_0182_zpsz4iarenn.jpg

[conozo]

I'm not an cam expert but I would say that what you have is bad and your best best might be to get a different head from the junk yard and have it worked on. I had a shop here in town resurface the head, 4 angle grind the valves and cleaned up and inspected the whole thing for around $200. You'll need a new head gasket too which I think I paid like $50 for a fel-pro one. So all in all you can probably rebuild the head and install it for $300 to $350 which isn't bad.

[niles]

There is a machine shop at the end of my street. Pick-N-Pull only charges like $90 for a head. Plus luckily I'm in Portland so there's gotta be like 1,000 machine shops around

[Dr_Snooz]

That lobe is bad. You can replace it with a junkyard cam but it won't solve your noise. Replacing a cam is not very hard, just make sure that there isn't any of that nonsense on the new cam.

[niles]

Thanks Dr. That reassures what conozo is talking about. The cam discovery paired with the other issues mentioned with my existing head means I'll be looking around for a new one staring Saturday. I'll post in the wanted section if I can't find anything worth wile at the yards.

[niles]

Another thing that everyone can help me with is this: I can get a head from the parts yard and have it reworked, or I can buy one online for $275 to $400, depending on who I get it from.

So my question is, am I better off pulling my own head from the yard and having it reworked locally or should I go with one of the major remanufacturers? Which would be cheaper? Which would have the best quality?

And while discussing the lobe pitting with a coworker, he had an interesting theory. He said maybe the valve guide is worn, allowing exhaust blowback to go up the guide and hit the lobe. This would explain the pitting and the dark markings on the side of the lobe after the exhaust stroke. But whatever happened to pit the lobe, I don't know, however this is also one of the valves that has a little play in it when you wiggle it.

[conozo]

I bet a remanufacturer is cheaper but you would have to call in your local place and see what they charge. Do you have a link to a place were you can get one online from a major remaufacturer.

I was also going to say if your set on rebuilding or fixing this issue i would take the head off before you get a new one just so that you can get a better look at the engine and the other parts you take off before you start spending money so you don't have any surprises.

[niles]

I was going to do a head replacement eventually, but I didn't necessarily want to do it right now. But as the picture is coming together, it looks like head replacement is inevitable.

Stopped by the local machine shop today (Don's in Gresham, OR) and they quoted me a worst-case cost of around $400. Of course this was a quote for a hypothetical situation without any diagnosis; I asked for the upper range cost. They also told me that from my description of the cam pitting that it usually means the cam is on it's way out, and not necessarily exhaust gasses like speculated in my previous post.

My plan is to look around the parts yard on Saturday when I'm picking up a few injectors to test that theory of a bad injector. If I see a head that looks cherry, I'll pick it up while I have the chance. If anything I can take my time rebuilding the new head or slap it on my car and then take my time repairing my original head.

I think it will be good to have a spare head from the yard since all the rebuild companies want the core within 30 days. This will also give me time to polish the ports and get a cam regrind done for the head I will be using permanently.

My thought process might make more sense if I let you know that my 3gee is my only car. So being out of commission for more than a weekend is out of the question.

Here are a few rebuilt head listings:

HeadsOnly.com = $275 (core return shipping included)
HONDA ACCORD 2.0 LITER REBUILT CYLINDER HEAD 86-89 PJO (http://www.shop.headsonly.com/HONDA-ACCORD-20-LITER-REBUILT-CYLINDER-HEAD-86-89-PJO-HONDA-ACCORD-20-PJO.htm)

AluminumHeads.com = $395 (I think...) I can spare the shipping since they're local
Honda Cylinder Head - Portland Oregon. (http://www.aluminumheads.com/Honda.html)

CylinderHead.com = $325
Honda Cylinder Heads (http://cylinderhead.com/find-your-head/honda-cylinder-heads/)

[Dr_Snooz]

I've seen the darndest things at the junkyard. You spend a half-day looking for something decent and another half-day pulling it, only to find out its completely fubared when you get it off. You could spend a lot of time pulling a cracked head or something equally unsalvageable. I've left many parts in the yard after spending hours pulling them because the broken parts in my car were in better shape. With something as complicated and difficult as a head, I would rebuild what I have instead.

To answer your question though, the best course is to use a source you or a friend have had good luck with in the past. Online, in-town doesn't matter as long as the results are good. If you call around to parts stores in town and they all recommend the same shop with high praise, use that shop.

I'll second what conozo said and take it a step further. You're about to spend a load of time and money to rebuild your engine halfway. What usually ends up happening is that you slap a new, tight head on an old, leaky block and within a short time, your rings start smoking. Then you get to pull everything out again and rebuild the block. Consider doing a complete rebuild now instead.

[niles]

I hear ya, guys. Honestly if I had alternative transport and all the necessary tools I would do a full rebuild. Or just drop in a rebuilt engine for $900 to $1200 lol.

I don't have the resources for that kind of stuff... and my garage is being used as a storage unit for someone right now. :uh:

But seriously, I appreciate your opinions. I am in serious brainstorm mode right now. I am not going to sink a bunch of money into something that's not broken. I know my head is old (like the rest of my car), a compression test will answer a lot of questions, I fear having to helicoil one of my spark plugs if I take it out. But that is the logical next step.

Somewhat off-topic, how bare minimum can the tools get with a bare minimum bottom-end rebuild? Ring compressor, plastigage, other special tools?

[Vanilla Sky]

That's how my head gasket job grew into me doing the bottom end, too. Get it done and over with and rebuild an engine for it.

[niles]

I will start by proving the problem (still really hoping its a bad injector). Then I will perform a compression test if the injector idea doesn't help.

If I do end up replacing the head I will plan for a bottom-end rebuild to do at the same time or shortly thereafter. I am pretty familiar with how upgrades just cause problems for everything else that is worn out too.

[Dr_Snooz]

Bottom end build is pretty easy. You need a ring compressor and a good torque wrench. You probably have everything else already. Read through the section in the manual on it and you'll see.

I still think your problem is an exhaust leak though. If you had engine problems, you'd feel them in the car. If the car drives fine, roll on and be happy.

But still change the cam and fix the exhaust manifold bolts. For probably $100 and a few hours, you can fix those bolts and see what's what. That's a whole lot cheaper and easier than a valve job.

[niles]

Found a head at the yard yesterday with a good cam and I haven't found any cracks yet lol. I'll have the local machine shop check it out for problems.

I also picked up some spare fuel injectors.

I installed a Bosch injector in cylinder 4, where I thought most of the noise was coming from. The car seems a lot quieter. Also checked the valves for the third time. I did a good highway drive today and the car runs way better. Still need to give a good listen though.

[niles]

After a couple days of driving, I think I have been successful. In conclusion:

Used Bosch fuel injectors = Good :D

New GP Sorenson Injectors = BAD :rant:

Careful Valve Adjustment = Good :D

Well I am glad my seemingly severe problem was fixed with a $7 used injector. And it has helped in so many ways; uneven idle, LOUD ticking noise, cold-start misfire, overall crappiness.

Having pulled the spare head I didn't even need is great too since I did find some cam wear on my existing cam, I can have the spare cam reground by Delta. And leisurely (instead of frantically) have the spare head built and refurbished for a head swap down the road, which is on the horizon regardless. This will also provide better planning for a bottom-end rebuild to coincide with the new head.

Thanks for all your help and experience!

[Dr_Snooz]

Glad it worked out well for you.