I take back everything I said I knew about cars

[niles]

Yesterday morning I had a hard time starting my car. Then after work it wouldn't start at all.

All the tests I could think of were passing; resistances, voltages, fuses, fuel, spark, timing, etc. Then I started pulling spark plugs, they were soaking wet and rusted. It was coolant. Luckily the oil is still moisture free.

It's hard to say exactly how long my head gasket has been on it's way out, but according to the symptoms - about a year. I am a terrible mechanic.

http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a607/NilesHenke/Honda/DSC_0267_zpsno9c81wm.jpg

[conozo]

looks like you'll be needing that head you got from the junk yard now.

Edit: are you sure it was coolant. (i dont know if you mean all 4 spark plugs looked the same) Its my understanding that if a headgasket went out there would be at most two cylinders with coolant not all 4. I just cant think of a way you would have coolant in all 4 cylinders unless you were totally thrashing the engine. So are you sure its not just gas from being flooded or something.

[niles]

Yep lol glad I picked it up now. I'm taking it to the machine shop tonight to have it tested

[niles]

Spare head checked out okay, so I am having the machine shop replace the valve stem seals and machine the surface today, then do a pressure check.

ARP head studs are on order. Victor Reinz gasket is on order. Already have all the other gaskets.

I will start the treardown this weekend. While everything is apart, I might try to reroute some vacuum lines for appearances. And the intake manifold will get a thorough cleaning.

Any other suggestions for things to do while I have the top-end dismantled?

[conozo]

Timimg belt, tensioner., check your water pump

[Dr_Snooz]

I am a terrible mechanic.

I'm thinking just the opposite. You had a sense that something wasn't right with the head. You bought a spare and ended up being right in a way you didn't anticipate. I find the biggest part of being your own mechanic is paying attention to that sixth sense you have about your stuff.

Do you have any big mods planned for this job, or just get everything running again?

[niles]

Thanks for the support Dr. I do think the timing of the issue it pretty ironic.

Since the head gasket kindof took me by surprise its going to mostly be a repair. I will still consider polishing the exhaust ports at minimum, since it will be a few days before the head studs arrive. I do have a spare cam that I can send in for a regrind though.

I'm also going to do a major intake manifold cleaning. And today I'm going to see what it will take to reroute some vacuum lines.

T-belt, tensioner and water pump are new, but I'll make sure the water pump bearings are still good.

I'm open to suggestions for mods, but if it takes more than a few hours I'll probably not do it. I'll be swapping the head after work mostly so I'll be doing the work a few hours at a time unfortunately.

[2ndGenGuy]

Yeah dude, that shit happens to all of us. If a HG is gonna blow, it's gonna blow. I mean, it sounds like you figured it out pretty quick. I wouldn’t be hard on yourself about it.

[Vanilla Sky]

Let's get good pictures of that head gasket. I have a brand new Fel Pro that I can do the same with. I'd love to do a comparison.

I done blowed up my motor good, too. It happens to the best of us. Mine made it through 218,000 miles of abuse and neglect.

Celebrate your failures. Learning by failure is something you should already know from your electronics work. Just different hardware and function, that's all.

[niles]

Let's get good pictures of that head gasket. I have a brand new Fel Pro that I can do the same with. I'd love to do a comparison.
will do. should get it Monday. I'll post it in the http://www.3geez.com/forum/efi-tech/101398-headgasket-materials.html thread.

Yeah dude, that shit happens to all of us. If a HG is gonna blow, it's gonna blow. I mean, it sounds like you figured it out pretty quick.
it was definitely due for a head gasket. I was just venting mostly.

got the engine tore apart today. going to do a super clean tomorrow or monday

[2oodoor]

Mine blew for no apparent reason before, drove it home like a like an epileptic race horse, never ran hot, im still a little perplexed becaus it was rattling like hell on the three cyl, 2.5 cyl or whatever was going on.

[niles]

Still waiting on the head studs and head gasket to get here. In the meantime, any suggestions on how to clean the pistons? The stuff is like concrete. Cylinder walls look fantastic, but I haven't turned the engine yet to do a full inspection...

http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a607/NilesHenke/Honda/DSC_0278_zpselo4btth.jpg

[Dr_Snooz]

Good God! Keep your sharp tools out of there! Close it up and run some injector cleaner through it when you get it running. Then give it the occasional Italian tune up and call it good.

[Oldblueaccord]

Still waiting on the head studs and head gasket to get here. In the meantime, any suggestions on how to clean the pistons? The stuff is like concrete. Cylinder walls look fantastic, but I haven't turned the engine yet to do a full inspection...

http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a607/NilesHenke/Honda/DSC_0278_zpselo4btth.jpg

If you have compressed air I used those rol loc pads on a right angle air buffer.


3M Roloc Disc Holder + Fine Medium and Coase 50mm Disc Kit | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3M-Roloc-Disc-Holder-Fine-Medium-and-Coase-50mm-Disc-Kit-/300675067578)


I do notice it looks like every piston has a mark in the middle/right for some reason or maybe its the photo.

[niles]

Good God! Keep your sharp tools out of there! Close it up and run some injector cleaner through it when you get it running. Then give it the occasional Italian tune up and call it good.

Sorry, Dr. I couldn't look at the carbon buildup and not do anything about it...

I was originally going to seafoam the engine before the gasket gave out. I've even heard of people just using regular kerosene added to their gas. I will use some additives once I get it all back together to keep things nice and clean. I always pump premium, a few days ago I was reading that running a higher octane than the engine requires can also cause excess carbon buildup. I think it was from the additives they use to raise the octane not getting fully burned. What do you guys think?


If you have compressed air I used those rol loc pads on a right angle air buffer.
I do notice it looks like every piston has a mark in the middle/right for some reason or maybe its the photo.

Oldblue, are you talking about the arrow stamped on the piston that points at the pulley-side of the engine?

I don't have compressed air :( - just an old beat up power drill. I was actually trying to find my scotch pads lol. I was unsuccessful, but I found that WD40 and a brass bristle brush slowly removes the carbon.

Is there anything wrong with rotating the crank with the engine all apart? I want to clean the other two pistons now...

Small update was well. ARP head studs should be in tomorrow, and the head gasket is at my buddy's house who had the parts hook-up. So this weekend I should be able to begin the reassembly. Time to read up on coolant line deleting!

[cygnus x-1]

I wouldn't get too worried about trying to remove all the carbon. Some buildup is pretty normal. A brass wire brush might work ok and won't leave any abrasive behind like scotch brite pads do. I love the roloc scotch brite pads but they do shed.

C|

[niles]

WD40 and a brass-bristle brush are magic! I cleaned the other two pistons today. The WD40 had been soaking for about two days, and it only took a few minutes each to scrub off the carbon deposits.

Then I noticed the below marking on cylinder four, which is also the cylinder that had the nastiest carbon deposits. There is no scarring that I can feel with my fingers. Any ideas on what could cause this? (the blue is from my flashlight)

http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a607/NilesHenke/Honda/DSC_0290_zpsdpiktjk9.jpg

[conozo]

Did this cylinder have coolant in it? From the look of it, it appears to be the top part of the piston scraping the side since the scrape marks go all the way to the top so i wouldn't assume a broken ring or something but again i am no expert.

Edit: Possibly carbon build up and fell into the gap between the piston and cylinder wall scraping it up. What condition were the valves on that cylinder compared to others, how was the spark plug, was the valve lash way off or anything.

Edit 2: I've been reading online and am looking into why you had so much carbon build up, one possibility is detonation which can have several different causes. Quote from enginebuildermag.com article "Detonation can be caused by low octane fuel, over advanced spark timing, a defective or plugged EGR valve, a lean fuel mixture (dirty fuel injectors or a weak fuel pump), a buildup of carbon deposits in the combustion chamber, and engine overheating. Detonation can occur when fuel ignites spontaneously from excessive heat and pressure." Also was that the cylinder with the bad fuel injector?

[niles]

Did this cylinder have coolant in it? From the look of it, it appears to be the top part of the piston scraping the side since the scrape marks go all the way to the top so i wouldn't assume a broken ring or something but again i am no expert.

Edit: Possibly carbon build up and fell into the gap between the piston and cylinder wall scraping it up. What condition were the valves on that cylinder compared to others, how was the spark plug, was the valve lash way off or anything.

Edit 2: I've been reading online and am looking into why you had so much carbon build up, one possibility is detonation which can have several different causes. Quote from enginebuildermag.com article "Detonation can be caused by low octane fuel, over advanced spark timing, a defective or plugged EGR valve, a lean fuel mixture (dirty fuel injectors or a weak fuel pump), a buildup of carbon deposits in the combustion chamber, and engine overheating. Detonation can occur when fuel ignites spontaneously from excessive heat and pressure." Also was that the cylinder with the bad fuel injector?

From the top:

This is cyl 4, and most of the breach happened on cyl 2. You can see in the picture how the water was cleaning off the carbon. I was thinking the same thing about carbon scraping cyl 4. The top of the scrape looks like a little heat discoloration. I have no experience with pistons though. Feels smooth to the touch, so I am not going to mess with it.

The valves were all really nasty looking to me, mondo build up on cyl 4. That was the cylinder with the faulty injector, I think you're on to something here. Valve lash for this cylinder was a little too tight on the exhaust, perfect on intake side.

I have been dealing with detonation issues, for a while, here's a summary:

low octane fuel:
I only run premium; which I heard can also cause carbon buildup due to unburnt additives. Our cars are spec'd for 91 octane.

over advanced spark timing:
I've been suspecting an issue with my vacuum advance, timing is perfect when the advance is unplugged, however. No troubleshooting performed yet though.

defective or plugged EGR valve:
EGR valve had hardcore carbon buildup on it. I don't know if any EG was getting past the R-Valve at all lol

lean fuel mixture injectors:
they were all new, (one is used Bosch now) but questionable quality. Proper resistance on them though, same with the resistor - both pass.

lean fuel mixture weak fuel pump:
very possible, no troubleshooting performed. New fuel filter though, so if it were any fuel delivery issue it'd be the pump or fuel pressure regulator IMO

buildup of carbon deposits in the combustion chamber:
hell yeah! Intake manifold looked pretty good though, and cylinder walls still show factory cross-hatch.

engine overheating:
Nope, actually runs a little cold. I want to get a higher temp thermostat for the mild NW winters. Takes too long to heat up.

Edit1: I also got new spark plugs one heat range colder to install in the new head to try to combat the detonation.

(cylinder order: 4 3 2 1)
http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a607/NilesHenke/Honda/DSC_0285_zpsv8zi7er8.jpg

[Oldblueaccord]

That piston is scuffed pretty good. Someone on here was selling a used set they will look like that.

[niles]

Got the car all put back together today. Gonna go double-check my work after a little break, then start 'er up...

Wish me luck!

[Dr_Snooz]

Woohoo! Got my fingers crossed.

[niles]

Sorry for the delay, thank for haingin' in there.

Saturday night after I checked all my work and added fluids, I turned the key and the car just turned over a few times with no combustion and I though "Oh crap..." then I tried a second time, and the car fired right up!

Replacing the head gasket and installing a refurbished head is by far the best thing I have done to the car so far. It behaves as if the engine was brand new! I have done a few short drives so far and I don't see any issues yet. The car even warms up faster, it's really nice to have warm air out of the vents within a few minutes. Now I just have to keep reminding myself that the rest of the engine still has 219k miles on it...

I really took my time on this repair and it was kind of rough having my only car out of commission for almost two weeks, but the repair only cost me about $400.

It's like the saying we used to throw around at one of my old workplaces: "Fast, Cheap, High Quality - You can only pick two."

Thanks for all your support folks, on a repair I have never done before.

[conozo]

Congratulations, you have just done a repair most people would even know where to start. I bet this little experience has greatly improved your confidence in fixing these cars.

And $400 to fix an engine problem is super cheap.

[niles]

Thanks conozo, it has been a real confidence-builder. I am going to get a few more miles on the new head before I will start considering it a complete success though.

Next challenge; Auto-tranny rebuild or bottom-end rebuild (lol, I hope not anytime soon...)

[Dr_Snooz]

Next challenge; Auto-tranny rebuild or bottom-end rebuild (lol, I hope not anytime soon...)

MT swap?

[niles]

I've thought about it, but LXi is all about luxury lol

[derolph]

low octane fuel:
I only run premium; which I heard can also cause carbon buildup due to unburnt additives. Our cars are spec'd for 91 octane.
Where did you get this notion? The user's manual for my 88 LX-i says to use 86 octane or higher. I've always used 87 octane, or "regular". Using a higher octane is usually a waste of money.

[niles]

Where did you get this notion? The user's manual for my 88 LX-i says to use 86 octane or higher. I've always used 87 octane, or "regular". Using a higher octane is usually a waste of money.

Thank you derolph, I always like making sure I get my facts straight. I know this topic has been debated before, so I checked the mauals on 3geez.wiki-tv.com to confirm my statement.

At luch I am going to check my personal manual in my glovebox, and I think there is also a sticker on my hood I will check to confirm.

Here is what the manuals say:
http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a607/NilesHenke/Honda/Octane_zpsa3435808.gif

[derolph]

Again:
The user's manual for my 88 LX-i says to use 86 octane or higher.

[niles]

You're correct derolph. My manuals say antiknock index of 86, which is equal to 91 research octane. I have two 87 LXi manuals and they're both worded slightly different lol.

So now I'm reading up on what the differences are, which countries report what octane at the pump, and what the Cost of Living Council has got to do with it all...

[Dr_Snooz]

My brother had an '84 CRX. He insisted that using anything less than 91 (actually 92 at that time) would void the factory warranty. I never saw that in writing though.

My sister claimed that she could tell the difference between different grades and brands of gas in how her '86 3g and her '89 (which I now own) would drive. What can I say? She had great taste in cars! Anyway, according to her, they both liked Chevron 91 best.

[niles]

Well I just had a great read over at Wikipedia, and the pumps in the US show the antiknock index. So I've been misinterpreting the ratings. I've been running premium when I should've been running regular.

I've been using premium to battle my detonation problem. But now that I've replaced my head, the car runs so much better. So I'll reduce the octane unless the detonation comes back.

Edit: According to the one shop manual, premium is fine. Just throwin' that out there.