why are old hondas so overlooked, etc

[Accordtheory]

I've been trying to figure this out for a while, and have no doubt annoyed a few people with my posts in the mattel thread, but I'm really trying to figure this out. Why is it that the old hondas are so overlooked as project vehicles vs other cars? Why is it that almost no one, even on here, has any money to spend on the 3gs?

I'm curious who is actually driving these cars. I know it isn't all just young kids. I bought my hatch when I was 19, I'm 32 now. I've owned 14 or 15 cars in my life so far. Ive owned my hatch for the longest of any of them, although it has spent quite a bit of that time parked and not drivable.


I know the "domestic" guys will invest tons of money into old muscle cars, with little reserve, because they always know they can get it back, but they're doing more restorations than heavy mods.

But to me, the old hondas seem like absolutely legitimate project vehicles. They have a good basic build quality, you can get them cheap, and improve them dramatically. The typical progress of a project vehicle is it sits aside while another car is the daily driver, and the person works on the project fully realizing they'll never get the money back out of it. A car that is cheap to start out with makes the perfect project, by lowering the total investment.

Is it just an image thing? I know today our culture is all about money, shit makes me puke. "got da benz on dubs, make it rain up in da club" just about every generic rap song says that kind of crap. But that valuing of money over everything else has resulted in a huge decay of our society overall. Not to mention those paper notes aren't backed by anything, might as well be fairy dust. They can, and are inflated by the trillions to pay for all of our government's insane bullshit. They create all this money out of thin air, then goad us through pop culture to compete with each other to get it, giving the money actual value.. And then the 3gs don't represent money, so they don't get any?

But then look at the popularity of the civics. They don't cost much either. I've always hated civics, I've always hated everything they are and everything they represent. They're boring, mainstream, designed as cheap commuter cars, underpowered, even the B16 in a civic is slow as hell...and yet they were, or still are to a lesser degree, incredibly popular. Why?? Then you look at the old accords and preludes, better build quality, more unique, but they don't catch on. Why? If it's just because of all the vacuum lines, etc, I don't get that either, because it's just as illegal to mod a civic as it is an old prelude in an emissions controlled state or county.

If anyone can explain this to me, please do!

[Dr_Snooz]

Generational trends might have something to do with it. As a rule, each generation tends to want to restore the cars it remembers from its youth. Baby Boomers will gravitate to muscle cars of the '60s, while Gen Xer's will gravitate to the excellent Japanese cars of the '80s (no one wants to restore the cars of the '70s because they were all so awful). The Baby Boomers came at a real good time, economically, in US history. They all got great jobs and made fantastic amounts of money that they religiously pour into the cars they restore. Thus, these cars receive great aftermarket support and sell for eye-watering prices.

We Gen Xer's got the shaft, demographically and historically. Most of us are struggling to get by, burdened with debt from school loans that didn't give us much earning power. We tend not to have a lot of discretionary income to lavish on a car. Thus, the cars of our youth don't get a lot of love.

The vintage Japanese cars are vastly superior to anything that came before by nearly every metric. The generation that normally would restore those cars...not so much.

***

Another part of it is the automakers themselves. Have you ever tried to get a part for an older car from Honda? It's impossible. They have absolutely no conception that their older cars might be valuable. I complain to the parts guys at the dealership whenever I go in and they basically tell me to pound sand. They don't use that exact expression, but it's so close as not to matter. Mercedes has the opposite mindset. They actively support aftermarket restoration parts makers. You can go to their website and literally find every part for any Benz ever made. If Benz doesn't make it, they know who does and how to contact them.

I'm not too familiar with restoring American cars, but I imagine that there is some basic collaboration with aftermarket restoration suppliers/support for enthusiast clubs, etc. there too. Think of all those BBQs and meets for Saturn buyers back in the day.

Honda won't have any of it. We are entirely on our own without any help from them. Any aftermarket restoration is truly a labor of love, custom fabbed parts and incredible tenacity, as we see with the 3g. Honda won't give us the time of day. Their only loyalty to us is to churn out new crap for us to buy. Without active help from Honda themselves, we can't expect our cars to achieve the popularity of the old muscle cars or German vehicles, no matter how much we love them.

[1813mdw]

Not much of anything from the mid to late 80s is really all that sought after with a few exceptions. Eventually people will all be after Trans Ams, Corvettes and Camaros from that era but at this point there still pretty much dime a dozen. I highly doubt many of the older Hondas will ever be all that popular to be a project car as there wasnt much of an aftermarket to begin with until the Fast and Furious" era when everyone and there mom wanted a modded Civic; which IMO hurt the Honda name more than anything but atleast got people working on them. I really like the older(80s) Hondas; but I highly doubt they will be all that popular for projects. They are under powered, FWD, OBD0 and sometimes carbed imports w/ hardly any aftermarket. Dont get me wrong, I loved my 3gee and hopefully will have a 3rd gen Lude next but it take a special type of person to invest money in these cars lol

[2oodoor]

There is a big trend among the growing nerd populous to seek and collect tbe oddest things, a list like furbies, the estranged gamecube enterage, all these items remind us of our history and have an emotional connection in some weird paralell. The same can be said for what is interesting enough to follow. Tbe main reason Honda cars appear unworthy of projects is front wheel drive IMHO
Ignorance blissfully mis directed, hondas fit into that niche of furbies, turbo 486 pc, reproduced transformer action figures but in a garage collectable kind of way lol.
if youve never noticed, a majority of us here have some form of mental diversion from normal, thats why were here!
On a serious note, these cars get a lot of love on the circle track budget racer class for 4&6 cyl non mini stocks.
another interesting thing is how much love the civic wagovans get among serious Honda guys..so there isnt a clear line in the sand of hating.

[lostforawhile]

part of the reason for the hate, is American car makers made some real shit in the 70's and 80's, and imports came along with well engineered designs, much better cars etc, so naturally everyone went to them, hurting American car makers, this of course was the Japanese manufacturers fault for producing a better product, and the fact that we were producing absolute garbage (most Chrysler's of this era come to mind) had nothing to do with it, if you bought a Jap car, you were un American! this still seems to go on today even though we are producing better cars

[conozo]

I think it's societys view on manlyiness. Your not a cool man unless you have a big excessive engine and/or size of car and/or parts on it like wheels. Everything in excess or large. Well the 80s japanese cars dont fit any of those categories. They are small, engines are reasonable and effecient, wheels are small, everything is small. A big manly guy does not have anything small (don't laugh).
If honda made a car with a Big v8 I have no doubt it would be a collectors car instantly.

[Accordtheory]

N They are under powered, FWD, OBD0 and sometimes carbed imports w/ hardly any aftermarket.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head with this. First thing to be able to do anything with the motor is go obd-1, and that stops a lot of people right there. But once you do that, you have cast iron blocks that don't need to be sleeved for boost, with motor/powertrain mounts that work quite well. With my turbo a20 setup, I could roast both tires perfectly equally, with basically no driveline harshness when launching or shifting. When I think of launching a civic or integra, I brace myself for the whole car to hop, the dash to jump up and down, and the stereo to fly out and smash my hand into the shifter.

You guys know that the old prelude with the mechanical 4 wheel steering beat everything, even corvettes in the slalom when it came out? A nose heavy, front wheel drive, cast iron block car with 195 section width tires, and it's beating corvettes in the slalom. I would absolutely love to have one of those with an H22 in it.

But I'd probably have to pay $4 or 5k just for the shell. I just did a search on cars.com, 500 miles within 95776 (Woodland , CA) and this is the Only old prelude that showed up. 1989 Honda Prelude Si, $4,750 - Cars.com (http://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/606641151/overview/)

Searching for 3g accords, not a single one showed up.

[1813mdw]

Yeah i really want one of the 3rd gen Ludes. A swap or turbo is pretty much all you have for options to make power tho. The B20a5 that came in it has 0 aftermarket support and nothing really swaps over from other series. Nobody even makes an intake manifold for them and even if you jig-rigged another IM to bolt up theres no room as the motor slants really far towards the firewall to get that good balance/handling. I would love to swap an f22a in 1; lots of torque and real iron sleeves for lots of boost. Great platform other than the motor

[lostforawhile]

When I think of launching a civic or integra, I brace myself for the whole car to hop, the dash to jump up and down, and the stereo to fly out and smash my hand into the shifter.:rofl:

[Dr_Snooz]

You guys know that the old prelude with the mechanical 4 wheel steering beat everything, even corvettes in the slalom when it came out?

It even beat the 911. Soichiro was the best.


But I'd probably have to pay $4 or 5k just for the shell. I just did a search on cars.com, 500 miles within 95776 (Woodland , CA) and this is the Only old prelude that showed up. 1989 Honda Prelude Si, $4,750 - Cars.com (http://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/606641151/overview/)

Searching for 3g accords, not a single one showed up.

Does this maybe suggest that old Hondas aren't so overlooked? I called a dealership in Washington on a 4WD Wagovan a couple years ago. The cars are rarer than hen's teeth and the dealership was asking double high blue book. I called them and offered them half that and they laughed. They had several buyers already at their price and were getting constant calls. My guess is that the next time you go look for that Prelude, it will be gone. I spied a 3g just the other day here that was all cherried out. The owner isn't on this board, but clearly loved his 3g.

You can't confuse tuner cars with classic cars. I mean, there are no aftermarket performance goodies for a 300SL Gullwing. Yet the cars still sell for $250k. MGs are likewise, under-powered, too small, NoBD and come with carbs, (and are constantly broken down) yet they enjoy a fanatical following. While we're here wringing our hands, the resale values for old Hondas keep climbing. We had guys buying these cars for $300 a couple years ago. They aren't paying that anymore.

1989 Honda Accord 2 Door Coupe LXI Value, Prices & Specs | NADAguides | NADA 1989 Honda Accord Book Value & 1989 Honda Accord Market Price (http://www.nadaguides.com/Classic-Cars/1989/Honda/Accord/2-Door-Coupe-LXI/Values)

[Accordtheory]

According to that guide, the price has actually gone up quite a lot. I don't know what I'm going to do if hipsters start buying these old hondas..

But my main point wasn't about some price guide showing a higher price, or anything along those lines. It was really when you look at a guy who has a few project vehicles, why is an old accord or prelude usually not one of them, when they're willing to mod cars like the 90s civics.
Case in point, currently 75 people have looked at this 1986 1989 86 87 88 89 Honda Accord A20 Turbo Manifold Header | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/331253279231?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1586.l2649) but not one has clicked "buy it now". Although I think someone probably will eventually.

[Accordtheory]

I think it's societys view on manlyiness. Your not a cool man unless you have a big excessive engine and/or size of car and/or parts on it like wheels. Everything in excess or large. Well the 80s japanese cars dont fit any of those categories. They are small, engines are reasonable and effecient, wheels are small, everything is small. A big manly guy does not have anything small (don't laugh).
If honda made a car with a Big v8 I have no doubt it would be a collectors car instantly.

Well, the 90s civics were incredibly popular, and they sure aren't manly in the least.

I'm almost afraid to guess what some people think of me in my solid axle swapped chevy on 37s. I sure didn't build that to be "manly". People always stare, curious to see what kind of person drives something like that. It's not a "bro truck", it has soul..and rust holes in a few spots, thanks to the midwest winter road salt.

[cygnus x-1]

I think the popularity of the Civic comes from two things. One, there are millions of them. Two, someone figured out that it was easy to swap in a B18 engine, making it a cheap fast car. Magazines picked up on this, and it snow balled from there. Once you generate a critical mass of popularity, it feeds on itself and is self sustaining.

Civics are not manly, but wanting to go faster than everyone else is manly. (yes, I realize this is a generalization, etc.)


A SAS Chevy on 37s is about as bro truck as it gets. Not that you're necessarily a bro, but that's the image that most people will get.
Now if you put a diesel in it with stack exhaust and crank up the fuel screw to roll coal, there is no doubt. You ARE a bro. :lol:

I would not consider myself a bro, but actual bros do seem to like my lifted Samurai on 32s. And it does have a diesel, albeit a small one (1.6L NA VW). Possibly I'm just a bro in denial? :rofl:


Anyway, back to old Hondas. Being an import is an automatic disadvantage in that parts are less available off the shelf. Yes they can usually be ordered, but the domestics will always win this battle. I'm pretty sure you can build a complete 57 Chevy entirely from catalog parts. That will never happen with any import; certainly not a Honda.

C|

[cygnus x-1]

part of the reason for the hate, is American car makers made some real shit in the 70's and 80's, and imports came along with well engineered designs, much better cars etc, so naturally everyone went to them, hurting American car makers, this of course was the Japanese manufacturers fault for producing a better product, and the fact that we were producing absolute garbage (most Chrysler's of this era come to mind) had nothing to do with it, if you bought a Jap car, you were un American! this still seems to go on today even though we are producing better cars


I think this has a lot to do with it as well. During the 50s and 60s America could do no wrong. I mean we won the war right? Well then the 70s and 80s came along and those same people we had to beat down in 1945 were now kicking our asses. And for good reason (they made better cars). Therefore, I don't think any import car will ever be considered a "classic" in the US. They're cool in more of an underdog sort of way. Which to me is just fine.

C|

[Accordtheory]

A SAS Chevy on 37s is about as bro truck as it gets.

That's not what a "bro truck" is.

1st requirement for a "bro truck": it has to be new, or close to new. Giving the image of "status" through purchase price alone.
2nd: It has to be a crew cab, or have 4 doors..so you can roll with your "bros".
3rd: It has to be modified the same way as every other affliction wearing d bag mods their truck. Same lift, same wheels, same tire size

When you think of "bro trucks", think of the truck in this video:Florida Georgia Line - Cruise - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PvebsWcpto)


I see what you're saying about after WW2, but I disagree about a few of the finer points there. Particularly how our government decided to nuclear bomb 2 major cities full of civilians, I think that is one of the worst things america as a country has ever done. And now our government is basically a police/surveillance state taken over by large corporations, ruling with militarized police, financing itself through inflation by way of a private bank with currency backed by nothing. Absolutely corrupt from top to bottom, makes me embarrassed to be an American. I love my country, but hate my government with a passion.

Why did I just get political like that? Well, that ties in to the people who chose an old camaro over a 240z just for political reasons, just because one is made by "muricans" while the other is made by "japs". But the 240z had independent suspension, struts on all 4 corners, rack and pinion steering, etc, it was way ahead of those old camaros. To me, it isn't even close. Just like the ancient engineering of harleys, vs the japanese sport bikes.

[Dr_Snooz]

just because one is made by "muricans" while the other is made by "japs".

Except that most of the Camaro was probably made by starving Mexicans living in cardboard and pallet shanty-towns just outside the gates of the maquiladora. At the same time, a sizeable chunk of the "Jap" cars were being made stateside. The flag waving over cars was nothing more than marketing and just another way for middle class Americans to slit their own throats by buying slave goods.

[lostforawhile]

That's not what a "bro truck" is.

1st requirement for a "bro truck": it has to be new, or close to new. Giving the image of "status" through purchase price alone.
2nd: It has to be a crew cab, or have 4 doors..so you can roll with your "bros".
3rd: It has to be modified the same way as every other affliction wearing d bag mods their truck. Same lift, same wheels, same tire size

When you think of "bro trucks", think of the truck in this video:Florida Georgia Line - Cruise - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PvebsWcpto)


I see what you're saying about after WW2, but I disagree about a few of the finer points there. Particularly how our government decided to nuclear bomb 2 major cities full of civilians, I think that is one of the worst things america as a country has ever done. And now our government is basically a police/surveillance state taken over by large corporations, ruling with militarized police, financing itself through inflation by way of a private bank with currency backed by nothing. Absolutely corrupt from top to bottom, makes me embarrassed to be an American. I love my country, but hate my government with a passion.

Why did I just get political like that? Well, that ties in to the people who chose an old camaro over a 240z just for political reasons, just because one is made by "muricans" while the other is made by "japs". But the 240z had independent suspension, struts on all 4 corners, rack and pinion steering, etc, it was way ahead of those old camaros. To me, it isn't even close. Just like the ancient engineering of harleys, vs the japanese sport bikes.

I still get hell about my truck, just because it's not oversized, I didnt want a huge gas guzzler, but a medium sized one that was useful, so I ended up with a ranger, still has four doors and a decent size bed, and is basically a mazda, or a Mazda truck is Ford, depends on which way you look at it. Says Ford but the Mazda ones are identical. Around here a reasonable lift is actually useful, not the truck way up in the air, but a 6-8 inch lift, trucks here actually get used as trucks, If I want to go pick up my grandkids, it's a 1/4 mile down washed out huge ruts and mud, all in first gear at about 2 mph, and I always carry a shovel and some old plywood to put under the wheels, car would bog down. That lift would be really nice to have for this situation

[2oodoor]

Yeah the full size Ford Trucks use a Mazda tranny too!

Oh it took me a few posts to figure out "bro truck" that term I never heard but the animal I definately know of. IT MAKES me sick to see these 16-20 yr old kids driving a truck that cost as much as my house, its wrong, even if he did earn the money to actually buy it and then mod it (total sum appx 50k-30k right?) It would be irresponsable use of financial resources for a kid that age IMHO.

lol yes I have a small house and it was a foreclosure hud, but still Im driving a ten yr old F150 $16k I wound up paying and I worked hard to get it so pulling beside a bro truck offends me a few seconds.
Funny transformation though is I pull beside most any late model sport model in my four door 29 yr old Honda with all Ive done to it, doesnt bother me a bit

[Dr_Snooz]

When you think of "bro trucks", think of the truck in this video:Florida Georgia Line - Cruise - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PvebsWcpto)

Will a bro truck get me the girl in the bikini?

[lostforawhile]

if they were going to name the band what they did, they could have shot the video here, since this is the real Georgia Florida line, but otherwise it's about accurate, about every third vehicle here is a truck

[Accordtheory]

Will a bro truck get me the girl in the bikini?

No, but I absolutely fucking guarantee she'd never set her hot little ass in a 3g accord! Unless it was a 500+ whp car, you'd have to have more game than mystery the pickup artist to pull that shit off..

[FederalSecurity]

I've been trying to figure this out for a while, and have no doubt annoyed a few people with my posts in the mattel thread, but I'm really trying to figure this out. Why is it that the old hondas are so overlooked as project vehicles vs other cars? Why is it that almost no one, even on here, has any money to spend on the 3gs?

I'm curious who is actually driving these cars. I know it isn't all just young kids. I bought my hatch when I was 19, I'm 32 now. I've owned 14 or 15 cars in my life so far. Ive owned my hatch for the longest of any of them, although it has spent quite a bit of that time parked and not drivable.


I know the "domestic" guys will invest tons of money into old muscle cars, with little reserve, because they always know they can get it back, but they're doing more restorations than heavy mods.

But to me, the old hondas seem like absolutely legitimate project vehicles. They have a good basic build quality, you can get them cheap, and improve them dramatically. The typical progress of a project vehicle is it sits aside while another car is the daily driver, and the person works on the project fully realizing they'll never get the money back out of it. A car that is cheap to start out with makes the perfect project, by lowering the total investment.

Is it just an image thing? I know today our culture is all about money, shit makes me puke. "got da benz on dubs, make it rain up in da club" just about every generic rap song says that kind of crap. But that valuing of money over everything else has resulted in a huge decay of our society overall. Not to mention those paper notes aren't backed by anything, might as well be fairy dust. They can, and are inflated by the trillions to pay for all of our government's insane bullshit. They create all this money out of thin air, then goad us through pop culture to compete with each other to get it, giving the money actual value.. And then the 3gs don't represent money, so they don't get any?

But then look at the popularity of the civics. They don't cost much either. I've always hated civics, I've always hated everything they are and everything they represent. They're boring, mainstream, designed as cheap commuter cars, underpowered, even the B16 in a civic is slow as hell...and yet they were, or still are to a lesser degree, incredibly popular. Why?? Then you look at the old accords and preludes, better build quality, more unique, but they don't catch on. Why? If it's just because of all the vacuum lines, etc, I don't get that either, because it's just as illegal to mod a civic as it is an old prelude in an emissions controlled state or county.

If anyone can explain this to me, please do!

AccordTheory, believe me when I say I understand your frustration. I've been at that point many times in the last several years.
I think a part of it has to do with aftermarket support. All one has to do is start searching online for older Honda parts. Here are some specific examples:

Car Craft Boon - Civic, CRX
Function 7 Engineering - Civic, CRX
Inline Four - Civic, CRX
J's Racing - Civic, CRX
Mishimoto - CRX
Nengun - Civic, CRX

Unlike the older Civics and CRXs, most aftermarket support for the Accord starts with the CB chassis in 1990. It may be that there is correlation between the amount of aftermarket support and the popularity of any given chassis.

Another possibility for the limited acceptance of the other older Hondas may have something to do with the origins of the import tuner scene in Southern California in the 70's and 80's. According to what little I've read online, the first import tuners in the U.S. were influenced by street racers coming from Japan at the time. These Japanese street racers purportedly preferred the lightweight, well-balanced early Civics and CRXs that were ideal for the traffic and tight spaces of places like the Isewangan Expressway and the Osaka Kanjo.

Something else to ponder is the possible lack of exposure of the older Accords to the younger import tuners. By the time the "Fast & Furious" craze lured legions of new tuners into the scene, the time of the older Accords had come and gone. I don't remember seeing any 2Geez or 3Geez of note in any of the Fast & Furious movies. On a related note, I'm sure a lot of other "3Geezers" would have joined me in jumping for joy if publications like Project Car Magazine had chosen a 3rd Generation Accord for tuning and modification in one of their issues.

On the subject of spending money on my 2Geez and 3Geez, AccordTheory, I can only speak for myself. The fault here lies with me. Instead of focusing on just one project car like I probably should be doing, I'm being overwhelmed with stretching my time and resources among a few different project cars at once. The purchases, repairs, and modifications I've done are:

<> A new glove box and driver's side door handle for the Florence Blue Metallic Accord LX that my younger sister will be driving when she gets her license.
<> Four new tires for my LX-i.
<> An eBay exhaust for my LX-i.
<> A new starter for my LX-i.
<> A new water pump for my LX-i.
<> An MSD Blaster SS Coil for my LX-i.
<> Control Arms form my LX-i.
<> Two new tires for my RX-7.
<> A new starter for my RX-7.
<> Corksport headers for my RX-7.
<> An A'PEXi N1 Dual Exhaust System for my RX-7.
<> New window tint for my RX-7.
<> A Fluidyne aluminum radiator for my RX-7.
<> An expensive stereo system for my RX-7.
<> Two new tires for my '85 LX.
<> A radiator fan switch for my '85 LX.
<> A new tire for my '84 Celica GT.
<> An LC Engineering Pro Clutch Kit for my '84 Celica GT.
<> An LC Engineering 9 lb. Lightweight Aluminum Flywheel for my '84 Celica GT.

I'm not evening trying to think about my 2000 Trans-Am yet...

My reasoning for doing this is dominated by one thought...the more of my old imports I can keep on the road, the less chance there will be of me being stranded when I need transportation to and from work.

I, myself, am 35 years old and I've owned several older cars throughout my life, three of them being older Accords. There are also some advantages that I've got in life right now. My mother's passing away prompted me to move from my life and job in Spokane back to the rest of my family in southeastern Washington State. Because of this, I'm living in one of the older houses on the family farm about thirty miles away from work. This means I don't have a lot of bills or expenses, and I'm keeping my life and finances as simple as I possibly can. I've got a decent Federal job at a hydroelectric dam with decent paychecks every couple of weeks. Because of these circumstances, I've finally been able to start allocating the time and resources that my cars have always deserved.

I'm with you on this next point. I don't repair or modify my cars on the premise that they will increase in value or give me the "ballin' outta control" status that a lot of other people go for. I repair and modify my cars because of what they represent to me, and if a future 3Geez movement is able to show the older Civic and CRX tuners that the older Accords can demand respect too, that would be a bonus.

[cygnus x-1]

That's not what a "bro truck" is.

1st requirement for a "bro truck": it has to be new, or close to new. Giving the image of "status" through purchase price alone.
2nd: It has to be a crew cab, or have 4 doors..so you can roll with your "bros".
3rd: It has to be modified the same way as every other affliction wearing d bag mods their truck. Same lift, same wheels, same tire size

When you think of "bro trucks", think of the truck in this video:Florida Georgia Line - Cruise - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PvebsWcpto)


Oh, now I see what you mean. I was thinking more redneck but your definition makes more sense.

Man, that video is outstanding. It has all the bases covered: text book stereotypical country music, glorification of consumerism (and gambling), objectification of women, and there's even a token hipster in the band. It's also interesting to note that EVERY person in the video is unmistakeably white.




I see what you're saying about after WW2, but I disagree about a few of the finer points there. Particularly how our government decided to nuclear bomb 2 major cities full of civilians, I think that is one of the worst things america as a country has ever done. And now our government is basically a police/surveillance state taken over by large corporations, ruling with militarized police, financing itself through inflation by way of a private bank with currency backed by nothing. Absolutely corrupt from top to bottom, makes me embarrassed to be an American. I love my country, but hate my government with a passion.

I was being somewhat sarcastic with the war comment. My intent was only to point out the mentality of the time, not to make any judgements right or wrong. I would generally agree with what you said here, although I would differ some on the degree of your claims.



Why did I just get political like that? Well, that ties in to the people who chose an old camaro over a 240z just for political reasons, just because one is made by "muricans" while the other is made by "japs". But the 240z had independent suspension, struts on all 4 corners, rack and pinion steering, etc, it was way ahead of those old camaros. To me, it isn't even close. Just like the ancient engineering of harleys, vs the japanese sport bikes.

And yeah, that was actually my point. Americans like American cars because they're (supposedly) American, not because they're any better than imports. In the late 70s and 80s Japanese cars were light years ahead of American cars. Of course the line between domestic and import has been pretty blurry for quite some time, but we Americans can't be bothered with trivial details like where our cars are ACTUALLY made. It says Ford on it, so it has to be American right? (more sarcasm)


So, I would say old Hondas are not popular as project cars for all of the stated reasons so far. It's certainly not rational, but popularity rarely is.

C|

[Accordtheory]

This thread is going off in the direction of american vs japanese, but one of my biggest points was the 3gs vs the civics, not so much 3gs against camaros, etc.

Aside from being underpowered, fwd, and obd0, I think one of the biggest reasons is the 80s style.

And apparently, people with MONEY do not like this style, or anything the old hondas seem to represent. I'm selling my a20 manifold for $300 shipped, over 100 people have looked at it so far, not one has clicked buy it now. At $300 shipped, I'm basically giving it away, and that still isn't cheap enough for the 3g guys.

It's like the guys with the 3Gs, you have to pay them to mod their cars.

I know it is subjective, but I think the style of almost everything from the 80s was pure shit. Clothing style, style of cars, music, etc. 90s music and style was unbelievably better, in my opinion. High waisted jeans and bikinis, who the hell thought that shit was hot?? high waisted jeans make even a fit girl look like she has about 10lbs of extra fat below her belly button. Puke. Low waisted is 1000% more sexy, and shows a girl's curves like how they really are. Same with flip up headlights, pure 80s all the way, looks dorky as hell. Only hipsters could like that shit these days. (the 3gs were available with normal headlights in other markets, right?) Even grafting in the last gen prelude headlights looks better than the flip up ones.

Reason I'm emphasizing the style is it's 2014 now, and the knowledge accumulated in the honda community in the last 10+ years is absolutely massive. I can break down a 600whp b series build part by part with very little effort, and literally thousands of other people can too, and now everyone is on to the K series motors. With that knowledge being so common these days, surely people must realize that it is no more difficult to properly turbo an old prelude or accord than a civic? The majority of the cost is the same, since you're installing the same kind of parts. Fuel pumps, injectors, turbos, turbo manifolds, downpipes, exhausts, intercoolers, a lot of those costs are very similar, if not the same. Sure, you're not going to be able to find a used ramhorn manifold for an old prelude or accord on ebay, but if you're fabbing, same thing. Same thing for fabbing the downpipe, intercooler tubing, radius arms, etc. Converting an old honda to obd1 and then running the hondata S300 is a minor expense in the build, and you still have to mod the ecu in the civic/teg to accept the S300 the same way.

That's why I think a lot of it is the 80s style, people just don't like the look of the old hondas, and they'd much rather choose the look of the 94+ integra, for example. (Although I absolutely hate those 4 little round headlights the us versions come with.)

I also think our current crop of cars will suffer the same fate, since they all look so similar and boring, if not flat out ugly with their extremely high hoods, high dashes and high door sills sloping upward to even higher trunklids. These modern cars will never stand up to the test of time style wise. I'm calling it now, because I'll be around to see it..

[conozo]

I know it is subjective, but I think the style of almost everything from the 80s was pure shit. Clothing style, style of cars, music, etc. 90s music and style was unbelievably better, in my opinion. High waisted jeans and bikinis, who the hell thought that shit was hot?? high waisted jeans make even a fit girl look like she has about 10lbs of extra fat below her belly button. Puke. Low waisted is 1000% more sexy, and shows a girl's curves like how they really are. Same with flip up headlights, pure 80s all the way, looks dorky as hell. Only hipsters could like that shit these days. (the 3gs were available with normal headlights in other markets, right?) Even grafting in the last gen prelude headlights looks better than the flip up ones.

In other markets the lights did not flip up, that's for pedestrian safety if they were hit by a car. The impact had to be a certain distance from the belt. Since we had high waisted jeans at the time the lights could be higher, thats why we have flip up headlights. So blame the styling on the pants.

[2oodoor]

Nice, according to theorys presented, that makes for an incredible insight Conozo!
In other markets the lights did not flip up, that's for pedestrian safety if they were hit by a car. The impact had to be a certain distance from the belt. Since we had high waisted jeans at the time the lights could be higher, thats why we have flip up headlights. So blame the styling on the pants.

[Vanilla Sky]

Most of you guys haven't seen how popular the 3geez facebook group (https://www.facebook.com/groups/2520356414/) has become. Lots of younger people doing engine swaps, turbo builds, good paint jobs, pretty much anything you can think of, to these cars. They're paying quite a bit more money for them, too.

[Dr_Snooz]

This thread is going off in the direction of american vs japanese, but one of my biggest points was the 3gs vs the civics, not so much 3gs against camaros, etc.

Well see the thread title says "old hondas," so I got confused. As for the Civic vs. Accord, you might be expecting too much. The Civic has come in various race car versions since 1983(?). There has been the Si, SiR and Type R Civics with special styling and high performance tuning. The Accord never got a performance tune. It got leather and Bose sound. If you were hard on for tuning, then the Civic is what you bought. The Accord is what your Dad bought after his promotion. It's what your Mom bought for taking your kid sister to school in the mornings. To put it another way, you're basically asking why everyone wants to hot rod Firebirds and not Buick Rivieras. Pretty silly question, right?

[TNTumbler]

I have a 1989 Honda Accord LX Sedan in B49-M Laurel Blue Metallic as a "project car" and "show car" at the same time. This one even carries Antique Tags on her. She does get some rather inquisitive looks and on occasion people will come up and ask what she is. I've had several of these cars, I actually was half way through a restoration on an 1986 LX-i before it was destroyed by an EF1 Tornado. I love my older Hondas especially the 3Geez. There is only 4 generations of Accords that really turn my head faster than if say a Porsche 911 Targa drove by. They are 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 6th generations. The 4th and 5th generations are alright (the 5th generation is growing on me since I did build these cars from 1994-1996), but the 7th through current generations look like homogenized jelly beans to me. I've restored many of cars over the years, but the Accord always has a soft spot in my heat. The styling is unique and very 80's which goes great with my favorite music which is also from the 80's. No, I don't dress like I'm from the 80's but I have once or twice just for a car show (which it was required as you would be judge as one with your car). Civics are ok, but just don't churn cream into butter for me. CR-X's on the other hand I find extremely sexy but to me they are sports cars, not family haulers. Preludes are slick, sweet, and have sex appeal written all over them for me (I've owned a 1979, 1984, 1988, and 1991) as the are spirited, have room for 4, and have great character lines.

As for American cars, I've restored a few in my time. But there is one over the rest that just catches my attention and almost makes me break my neck like an Accord does. That car is a Pontiac Grand Prix. I've owned 9 of them in my lifetime. Camaros are nice, so is a Mustang, but they are overrated and over blown. Same with the 1957 Chevrolet Bel Air (which was my very first car), and some of these other cars out there. People want these cars because they are popular subjects for these "Reality Shows." Which makes stupid people famous and they over pay for a rust ridden pile of crap. Doesn't make since.

In conclusion, I've shelled out at least 2k on my 1989 Honda Accord since Sept 2013 and somewhere in an upwards of $4 or 5k on my 2002 Grand Prix since April 2007. Do I regret it? No, Its passion and a love in an artful sort of way to me. Do I enjoy these cars, absolutely YES! I wouldn't own anything else (especially a Mustang, LoL). The last time I had the Honda appraised I was shocked to hear the guy say "I'm going to be brutally honest here. This is by far the best example of an "Older Honda" I've seen to date. I'm placing an appraisal value of $8,500 to as much as possibly $9k, if the right person came along, on it." But in truth, you can't put a price on love. Either you love these old cars, or you hate them.

[Accordtheory]

Iupwards of $4 or 5k on my 2002 Grand Prix since April 2007

I just sold my '02 GTP. Out of the 15 or so vehicles I've owned, that was my favorite one. I always liked the style, and the 97-03 has good reliability, is easy to work on, has the same common problems which are easy to diagnose and fix (MAF, wheel bearings (get the TIMKEN) front strut mounts, etc) It also has a very good combination of power and mpg, and goes right through the snow like it isn't even there. I've driven a lot of newer, much more expensive cars, and always used the GTP as a benchmark, and they usually never beat it in the real world. No wonder they are incredibly popular in the midwest, pissing off a lot of people how GM killed pontiac in favor of Buick, yuuuck. Buicks are ugly old people cars that don't handle, have horrible ergonomics, and ugly style, inside and out.

Well, over 100 views and no one bought my a20 manifold, still proving my point, 3gs are overlooked..

[Vanilla Sky]

Right now, the market is flooded with the Mosselman turbo manifolds. I had quite a bit of trouble getting my group buy together back in 2012.

[conozo]

But then look at the popularity of the civics. They don't cost much either. I've always hated civics, I've always hated everything they are and everything they represent. They're boring, mainstream, designed as cheap commuter cars, underpowered, even the B16 in a civic is slow as hell...and yet they were, or still are to a lesser degree, incredibly popular. Why?? Then you look at the old accords and preludes, better build quality, more unique, but they don't catch on. Why? If it's just because of all the vacuum lines, etc, I don't get that either, because it's just as illegal to mod a civic as it is an old prelude in an emissions controlled state or county.

If anyone can explain this to me, please do!

Here you go
http://www.3geez.com/forum/classic-honda-community-chat/103351-meet-kanjozoku-osakas-infamous-street-racers.html

[86AccordLxi]

Cheap speed. A b16/b18/k20 civic is a relatively bolt-in affair. Making a fast 3g takes lot more effort and fab, and the market has proven that very few people are willing to spend the money to make a real proper 3g.

Plus, while the accord light, it's not civic light (nicer car, obv., etc etc).

The aftermarket has never really embraced accords, anyway, and it's such a small fraction of old ones that are still getting modified that there's no real need to start producing new parts. I mean, even koni got out like 5 years ago? And that was just super simple reds.


I'm up to two well-built s13s now (hooray unlimited aftermarket!) but I find myself shopping for a 3g again just to have a relatively cheap/slow dink around car. At least there are still 5spd Lxi floating around for sale on craigslist in the NW.

[Vanilla Sky]

I had to stop into the parts store today for some PB Blaster, and I was asked what I was working on. I said "an old Accord." The counterman said he always loved the ones with the popup headlights. When I went on to say that's what I was working on, he thought it was cool that people did still work on them other than as beaters, and might look into one himself.

Maybe these cars aren't dead afterall.

[Vanilla Sky]

BTW, I think Koni got out closer to 15 years ago, and it took them until 10 years ago for stock to deplete to the levels that they decided it wasn't worth another run. There are, however, 2 new full-bodied coilovers on the market for these cars. They aren't the best (IMO), but it does display that some in the aftermarket are willing to cater to the less popular cars.

[86AccordLxi]

Ksport and what else? Still pure junk.

If I get another one I'll make come sort of civic konis work because fuck that 1-piece jay-dee-emm (with air quotes) bullshit.

[Vanilla Sky]

D2, the same junk, different color. Bilstein does still make the HD shocks for our application, and if you're honestly serious, you're likely going to revalve them anyway.

[86AccordLxi]

Purple instead of orange. Pass.

Bilstein lists a b6 shock for the 3g and it looks like summit/amazon carry the part numbers, so that's probably the route I'd take.

[cygnus x-1]

There is also Hotbits out of Malaysia.

HOT BITS SPORTS SUSPENSIONS - Engineered To Be The Best (http://hotbits.com.my/catalogues-detail.aspx?makeid=10&kitsid=111)


C|

[Vanilla Sky]

It's not like other coilovers don't fit. The D2s came about because they already made the parts, they just had to put them together as a kit.

[lostforawhile]

There is also Hotbits out of Malaysia.

HOT BITS SPORTS SUSPENSIONS - Engineered To Be The Best (http://hotbits.com.my/catalogues-detail.aspx?makeid=10&kitsid=111)


C|
for some reason these cars are very popular there, some really nice ones facebook page from over there

[86AccordLxi]

Yeah, more mediocre susp.

I'm a snob (no way!) when it comes to dampers, and unless it's koni, bilstein, moton, ast, penske, kw, MCS or maybe about a couple others, I'll pass.

[cygnus x-1]

Yeah, more mediocre susp.


You have experience with them or just haven't heard of them so they are automatically no good? Not that it matters to me. I'm just curious what you know that we don't.


C|

[86AccordLxi]

Well they make mediocre s-chassis and FC parts, too. Really anything at the $1k price point is not going to be spectacular and if it's at the $2k price point it should be a damper everyone knows to be good or they should be able to provide dyno plots for the shock.


I've never ridden in any of the one-piece coils that rode worth anything. Fortune Auto is probably the best of the off-the-shelf stuff. If they start making a 3g setup that'd be an alright solution, though I think mixing and matching EF/DA konis is probably the way to go and still cheaper.

edit: did more research. Hot Bits is supposed to be a cut above and the rally stuff isn't supposed to be bad at all. Seems that no one is really running their street stuff. Like I said, would rather piece together something from other honda models that settle for something that's more expensive and probably has less r&D, and has no support state-side.

I see them on alibaba, too. Take that for what you will.

[Accordtheory]

After doing a little more internet creeping, I have to say I suspect the whole honda game is dying off, way more than I initially suspected. Changing demographics, lackluster product offerings from honda, and a lousy economy thanks the ever increasing merger of government and corporate greed. But I don't think it is going to stay that way though. I think there will be a rebellion against all this "compete with everyone with money" crap, like grunge as a style will come back. Same with the ridiculously high "beltlines" on modern cars, I laughed out loud thinking that was a reaction to how much everyone creeps these days. Cameras everywhere, constant status updates via social media, etc. Maybe it is nice to be able to hide in a car with such poor visibility..

[Vanilla Sky]

Well, car guys are a dying breed in general. I do, however, see more clean old Hondas on the road now than I used to.

I personally emailed D2 back when they first introduced the coilovers for our cars, asking for a shock dyno chart. They asked what a shock dyno was. Just sayin'.

There are still ways to get good dampers under these cars. While you have to work more for it, the project can be done. Hell, we put motorcycle coilovers on a Miata.

[86AccordLxi]

Yeah, d2s have been junk since they started.

I missed on a nice 5spd lxi sedan yesterday but I'm on the hunt. Once I get it, it will get koni'd up shortly.

[Vanilla Sky]

The one I'm getting next Sunday already has Konis, along with a DC front strut bar and an OBX rear. I'm immediately selling the strut tower bracing, and the Sportlines or whatever that are on it now will get flogged off on here. Then I'm going to order 2 circle track 2.5" springs in half the spring rate, but double the length and cut those in half for springs. The coupe parts car I have has Tokico blues on the back, and a set of coilover conversion sleeves, and with a combination of parts and some cheap-ass engineering, my car will end up with a good shock and spring setup.

I also have every stock size sway bar, so I can play with those some. My favorite setup on my coupe with stock springs and struts was no front bar, stock rear bar.

If you hang around people that engineer on a budget, you learn little tricks like that for custom rate springs.

[86AccordLxi]

Can't say I'd ever cut springs in half when new QA1s are $37/ea...

[Vanilla Sky]

$2014 Challenge, $1007 class.

[86AccordLxi]

That makes more sense.

GRM is too far from here to compete but it seems like a blast.

[Dr_Snooz]

After doing a little more internet creeping, I have to say I suspect the whole honda game is dying off, way more than I initially suspected. Changing demographics, lackluster product offerings from honda, and a lousy economy thanks the ever increasing merger of government and corporate greed. But I don't think it is going to stay that way though. I think there will be a rebellion against all this "compete with everyone with money" crap, like grunge as a style will come back. Same with the ridiculously high "beltlines" on modern cars, I laughed out loud thinking that was a reaction to how much everyone creeps these days. Cameras everywhere, constant status updates via social media, etc. Maybe it is nice to be able to hide in a car with such poor visibility..

Things are so screwed up, it's really hard to justify putting a lot of work and expense into a car at this time in history. I'm so busy growing my own food, researching traditional building techniques for barns and readying my homestead for the apocalypse that it leaves little time for anything else. I mean, when you realize that all the food in our nation has been systematically poisoned for the last 50 years, the police are arming themselves with military hardware, the banks are all on the brink of collapse and WWIII is just getting started in Ukraine, it puts things into perspective. And it doesn't help that you can't buy anything that isn't crap anymore. I was literally researching how to make my own shoes the other day. Decades ago, I resigned myself to wearing ill-fitting shoes because everyone stopped making narrow widths. Now, I can't find shoes that don't have toxic Chinese rubber soles that stink up the house and make my feet blister. On the car front, all the cars have been ugly for at least ten years and are filled with a bunch of crap I don't want, like GPS, Bluetooth and a whoooole lotta spy tech. I'm done with this. I'll build my own stuff now.

The world is splitting into two groups. Either you're returning to a medieval way of living, growing your own food, learning to hunt, make shoes, find farmer's markets, etc. or you're retreating deeper into the Matrix, becoming more of a Facebook zombie, McDonald's eater, etc. It doesn't leave much room for hotrodders. If you can weld, chances are you're building a woodgas generator, or should be.

[86AccordLxi]

/thread lol

[2oodoor]

What the hell, a trendy thread, how nice!

Some off the hoof ideations floating around here.

[Vanilla Sky]

What the hell, down the rabbit hole we go!

One of the reasons I've become extremely interested in electronics over the last year is so that I can be off the grid, but still maintain the luxuries that electricity provides, such as HVAC, communications, entertainment, and life support systems. If at some point things do hit the fan, I want to be able to communicate with everyone else that still has access to modern communications. Some systems, such as GPS, receive only, so there's no fishy tracking going on there.

With technology, you can reduce the amount of land it requires to feed yourself, as well. Instead of growing out, grow up. Hydroponics are an excellent solution, but that requires electricity to improve yields. Growing indoors is an option, too. Buy yourself a factory, and light it with LED grow lighting, use a variety of renewable resources for electricity generation, drill a well or hope there's a good spring nearby, and you can grow anything you want, even trees, indoors. That allows you to seal it and never have to deal with Monsanto cross-pollination.

If SHTF, the guy that can still communicate will still survive, whether he has goods or not. Part of learning electronics started when one of my friends started getting into HAM radio. For the longest time, I thought the air waves were dead, but it's quite the opposite.

[Accordtheory]

Nice post, dr snooz.
I see it all a little differently than the 2 groups you described being created. I see it as 4 groups. The people who are joining the corporate/government world, people like me who fight against that, people who "opt out", and everyone else. I fight for the way I want this world to be by educating people primarily.

I have a very hard time living in this world. Seems the Only thing evolving is technology, everything else is going backwards. So many people only care about advancing their own lives, money, and "image". So many people believe all the garbage they're taught, question so little. They're glued to their "smart" phones, posting up every little irrelevant thing, focused on all the wrong shit. You can literally see this with people's physical forms, with obesity. Wal mart, everything made in china, fast food. Zero enlightenment. And everything that can make people stop and think, and Question, is illegal. Psilocybin mushrooms, peyote, cannabis, ayahausca, etc, etc, can get you a cage in our modern prison society. In South Dakota, they have a charge of "ingestion", and they can forcibly draw blood and imprison you. No ownership of our own lives is allowed by this tiny percentage of our population that "controls" everything. Astounding to me, yet it continues that way.

If anyone reads this and gets butthurt, they need to calm down. Seriously, if you don't like to read shit like this, you Should be reading it. We already know that we can get revalved bilsteins for a little over $700, or adapt dampers and coilovers from another car, with extended tophats. Old news.

To me, being able to rely on yourself is a legitimate goal, off grid, I think that's going to far. I already do just about everything else myself, and honestly, I am sick of it. I can tig weld, fab up a woodgas generator if I want to. I can do all the plumbing and electrical in my house. I've done a lot of work on vehicles, and enough on houses to know I hate it. I really should have learned one thing, and focused on that instead. Because most of the time I'm stuck doing shit I don't want to do. Like shingling my house between rainstorms. I think if you have a skill that is always going to be in demand, or a product (like moonshine, or high grade cannabis) you'll be fine even when the dollar is worthless, or in times of chaos/war.

One thing I like about automotive enthusiasts is that at least they have a passion about something, they're not just another drone.

[Vanilla Sky]

I've often thought that a real car guy commune would be impervious to any sort of outside influence.

[Dr_Snooz]

I really should have learned one thing, and focused on that instead. Because most of the time I'm stuck doing shit I don't want to do. Like shingling my house between rainstorms.

That is so classic. This last winter, we had like three rainstorms. The drought is apocalyptic here. People's wells are all going dry. We literally have environmental refugees fleeing the countryside and moving to cities after their wells go dry and they don't have the $20k+ to drill a new one. Of course, their home values go to zero when that happens, so they're destroyed. Anyway, between rainstorms 2 and 3, I was scurrying around my camper with a tube of silicone trying to keep water from pouring in through the windows. (If you're tempted to buy GE's Silicone II, DON'T!!!!! It's why my windows leaked so bad.)

I'm not sure what your background is, but that whole jazz about focusing on one thing is hogwash. They tell you to go to college, major in one thing and that will make you all your money. It's a load of crap. You graduate with a highly focused degree in bullcrap, leave with so much debt that you're forced to work for a corporation to pay it off. You hate your job because it's all yes-man, circle-jerk, politics and pointless bureaucracy but you can't leave because you don't know how to do anything else. You even have to call someone when your toilet breaks and that sucks too because they don't give a crap, are strung out, and always do the work wrong. Be glad you can figure stuff out and make it work.

[1813mdw]

I have a very hard time living in this world. Seems the Only thing evolving is technology, everything else is going backwards. So many people only care about advancing their own lives, money, and "image". So many people believe all the garbage they're taught, question so little. They're glued to their "smart" phones, posting up every little irrelevant thing, focused on all the wrong shit. You can literally see this with people's physical forms, with obesity. Wal mart, everything made in china, fast food. Zero enlightenment. And everything that can make people stop and think, and Question, is illegal. Psilocybin mushrooms, peyote, cannabis, ayahausca, etc, etc, can get you a cage in our modern prison society. In South Dakota, they have a charge of "ingestion", and they can forcibly draw blood and imprison you. No ownership of our own lives is allowed by this tiny percentage of our population that "controls" everything. Astounding to me, yet it continues that way.



Agreed. Most days I feel like Im in the movie Idiocracy; nothing but a bunch of braindead morons stuck on Facebook sharing pointless shit like what theyre eating for dinner and stupid memes. And dont even get me started on the Government. I would love for and uprise on any level but unfortunately I dont see it happening considering just posting this could get me locked away indefinately w/ no trial on "terrorist" charges. First alot of people would needed to wake up but Im afraid its too late for any of that

[2oodoor]

Even though I agree with about 89.9% what had been said the last fiver so posts, im kinda lost on the more e.motionally charged points. Very interesting stuff.
social media is ultimately evil as is over the top technology, Theres a generation or 2 that are "generating" malignent narcissists, and will be totally dependent on scamming people, taking more than giving as a lifestyle, brutally violent non empathetic zombies. Kinda like find "third" world organizations very much being immulated huh...

Im keeping a carbed vehicle around and a vast collection of cb and ssb radio equipment as well. Food is going to be an important consideration.
i absolutely hate my smartphone, why do I cling to it and check it like someone walks in the kitchen and opens the refridgerator door...why why why.
last nite we were awakened by a phone blasting a verizon 4glt advertisment! The phone was idle, all aps closed, volume on mute vibrate, so what the fuck was that!

[Accordtheory]

If you sit back, gain knowledge, and start questioning, you'll eventually realize almost everything we've been taught or programmed to think is false.

Before I go off momentarily, here is a really good video for anyone interested. There are multiple cuts of this with different lengths on youtube. America: Freedom to Fascism - Full. - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNNeVu8wUak)

The federal reserve is a private bank, not authorized by the constitution (The Treasury is supposed to be the issuer of currency) The "tycoons" of industry at the time realized "hey, why work so hard to establish monopolies on industry when we can do that with the currency itself!!" They got a few politicians behind that, and voted it in during christmas break of 1913. After a while, it was completely unbacked by anything tangible, ie, gold, and could be inflated to the point of severe damage to our society, which was their goal all along. Absolutely corrupt, leads to a world of debt, war and evil, while giving those on top unimaginable power and riches. Wars to the extent we've seen would not exist if they had to be financed with direct taxes instead of inflation. Think about that for a while. Look at how much our currency has been inflated over the years, where has the "value" been spent. By our government, mostly on "defense".

Schools, compulsory education are not this benevolent, altruistic, for our own good thing most people believe. They are designed to get between the parents and their kids, influence the kids the way the state wants, teach the kids they're the property of the state, and subconsciously teach them to hate learning/to Not question. I saw an article a few months ago about making college compulsory, and to illustrate my points, not one single person in the comments below said, "hey wait a minute, these kids are over 18, how can you just make them go?"

Feminism is Not about equal rights for women at all, it is about getting the other half of society to produce a Taxable income. And about getting more money from the guys in the divorce courts. And lessening the influence of parents over their kids, just like the schools, by getting the moms into the workforce. And about breaking up families, by creating financial incentives for divorce, which weaken society as a whole. Divide and conquer!

Global warming is not about "saving the planet". The idea was thought up by a small group of people in the U.N. many, many years ago as a way to generate revenue to support world government through global carbon taxes. The science doesn't support it, but if you question it, you'll get the same type of response you get for questioning the other thing you cannot question, 9/11. Or the newton, conn "school shooting", where half the people involved were paid actors, and the "kids" interviewed called it a "drill" on camera.

I could go on all day, and cover just about any subject you can imagine. I've spent hours and hours researching all of this shit, a few years ago when I had money And time, which is exactly what we're not supposed to have. This sure is getting far off topic, but it's all connected anyway. If we have to dissect society to see why people don't mod old hondas, so be it. Haha

[Dr_Snooz]

Being on topic is overrated.

You raise many good points. There's so much division between "left" and "right" these days. Yet when you start to understand the real issues behind the issues, instead of the irrelevant "debate" that takes place in the media, there isn't much to argue about.

Things are real bad. We all need to be drawing closer to friends and family, developing networks of support and planning for how we'll get along after this rotten system collapses. I've moved my mom onto my property and my sister will be moving in soon with her family. We're trying to pull together to make life work after "Babylon" falls. It won't be easy, but it's how we should have been living all this time. We never should have been divided into nuclear families all isolated from each other in the suburbs.

[1813mdw]

Good vid, Accortheory

[2oodoor]

Being on topic is overrated.



Things are real bad. We all need to be drawing closer to friends and family, s.

If you want good shoes spare no expense, that is the best advise you can get about life Im not shittin you. Footwear is important to youre health in every aspect imaginable.
Floors must be kept clean in dwellings, additionaly take youre shoes off at the door. Do you know what you walked in at tbe local general store, puke, oil, bird fece, the list goes on.
Vaccuum that car regularly, everything you stepped in on youre ventures is deposited on the carpet/mat and turned into ultra fine dust which makes its way into your eyes,nose and mouth via the hvac.

Having had foot surgery, Ive had to study footwear, tried on dozens of them, shopping for weeks to find what works.

To name drop a few of my favorites....
Merrell, Keen, Clark, Rockport, upscale models of New Balance and Aasics (those in the 100$ plus range) are worth every dime.
Go to a Clark store, theyre old school and fit you with full service.

These are all choices short of prescription or custom made ortho shoes.


Hondas will always have a significant place in automotive entheusists history and racing.
BTW I saw and awesome example of a modded DA yesterday that I never saw before and I dont really care for the looks of those. It was white, lowerd to the hilt, perfect non tacky body kit and custom grill that tied the headlights together. Im not workng now so Im on the street at different times so I see different cars

[1813mdw]

Quality?

[Accordtheory]

Footwear? Fuck..now we've gone too far..