EFI Flooding - Won't Start

[niles]

I am running out of ideas here. Started this thred as part of my troubleshooting: http://www.3geez.com/forum/efi-tech/108726-tw-sensor-clarification.html

So my car wont start. The engine is flooding like crazy. It has been getting progressively worse for about two weeks. I think I've read every TW Sensor post ever made on 3geez. I don't know what else it could be, but I'm wondering now if it might be my ECU?

Synopsis:
- No Codes
- Replaced TW Sensor (old one broke while testing)
- Verified Timing
- Verified Spark
- Verified Main Relay
- Newish Injectors
- Checked Injector Resistor
- Checked TDC sensor in Distributor
- Checked Cap and Rotor

So it's like everything works but when I try to start it gas floods into my cylinders. When I pull the spark plugs they are soaked!

Anybody in the Portland area have a spare ECU?

[Oldblueaccord]

Still sounds like the TW sensor. I think you can just jump out the harness with a paperclip to see if its it. it will just give out a fake reading to the ECU.There is a ohm reading on it by temperature chart someplace in the book.

Otherwise the ECU injector driver maybe bad or the ground on the intake manifold may be suspect. Not sure excactly where it is but I think its on or near the fuel rail.

The injectors you put in where the correct ones ? peak and hold?

[niles]

Thanks for your help oldblue. I was able to at least confirm which is which. Only one sensor will trigger the code 6, and for me its the SU410 sensor.

My sensor wire colors:
TW Sensor: green/white stripe and yellow/green stripe
Cooling Fan Sensor: white/green stripe and black

Here's an interesting observation; I took off the fuel rail to see how my injectors were operating. All four fire at the same time... Is that normal? I was under the impression that only one cylinder would receive fuel at a time?

Is the injector driver in the ECU? I verified the ground, its on the belt side of the intake.

Right now I am letting the cylinders dry out before I try new plugs, cap and rotor... And I'm a little dizzy from all the fumes

[niles]

Oh and I did try using a 400ohm resistor to trick the computer into thinking the engine was warm, I'm scared to straight short it out with a wire though

But at this point I'm thinking the plugs were too fouled to do anything soaking wet with fuel.

[gp02a0083]

Oh and I did try using a 400ohm resistor to trick the computer into thinking the engine was warm, I'm scared to straight short it out with a wire though

But at this point I'm thinking the plugs were too fouled to do anything soaking wet with fuel.

you got a nasty problem your dealing with here huh? good you already check a bunch of other systems. With your explanation that this problem has been getting worse over time makes me think it has something with a resistive part. maybe here is a few things to try?

-Measure the resistance of the Tw sensor , book specs it to be around 3k - 4.5k ohm around 68oF, hotter and ohm's decrease.
-Check for +5v from the yellow/Green wire of the sensor to chassis ground , then check the yellow/green wire to the green/white wire for +5v
- Double check the injector resistance, verify if the injector is opening and closing

Yes the injector driver is part of the Ecu, now after looking at the book and writing this i'd try to snag a donor ecu to test. That seems to be the extreme case or a broken / shorted wire
- When you verified the injector resistor box, did you have the 5-7ohm between any of the pins?

[niles]

you got a nasty problem your dealing with here huh? good you already check a bunch of other systems. With your explanation that this problem has been getting worse over time makes me think it has something with a resistive part. maybe here is a few things to try?

-Measure the resistance of the Tw sensor , book specs it to be around 3k - 4.5k ohm around 68oF, hotter and ohm's decrease.
-Check for +5v from the yellow/Green wire of the sensor to chassis ground , then check the yellow/green wire to the green/white wire for +5v
- Double check the injector resistance, verify if the injector is opening and closing

Yes the injector driver is part of the Ecu, now after looking at the book and writing this i'd try to snag a donor ecu to test. That seems to be the extreme case or a broken / shorted wire
- When you verified the injector resistor box, did you have the 5-7ohm between any of the pins?

You are dead-on with your troubleshooting advice. I even have a spare injector resistor, ya know, just in case lol.

The old TW Sensor test was intermittent. It would measure the correct reading but only if I pushed on the contacts just right, so I thought it may have a bad connection.

Everything tested correctly (after I replaced the TW sensor) which was why this was so maddening. It was really cool to watch the injectors firing fuel as a ghetto-test.

The best news is that IT RUNS!!!!!!

I replaced the distributor cap, rotor and spark plugs... and it fired right up!

So what I learned was that in all the attempted starts with the bad TW Sensor, I ruined my spark plugs (which I didn't think was possible with a little extra fuel exposure) and they just wouldn't spark enough to fire up.

Thanks for the support guys! I was literally losing my mind on this one, and ready to throw all kinds of money at my car since I was out of ideas.

[gp02a0083]

Smart move to have a resistor box on hand. Sounds like there may have been a shotty connection for the tw sensor at first, cle@n up the pins and dielectric grease couldbt hurt. Glad that you got her running and understand the fustration. You ruled out a whole bunch of potiental issues that helps out alot. More importantly you did one of the best things... walk away from it foe a little bit. My only suggestion during that time would have been to go pick up a 6 pack lol

[niles]

Okay so this has turned into an ongoing issue. My car is still hard to start, and I nearly got stranded at work today. It took what felt like ten attempts before it fired up.

So I am thinking it's either a fuel issue or a distributor issue, maybe ignition coil. The frustrating part is that there is nothing to troubleshoot, everything passes the tests! Well, except for one caveat: when warmed up, it idles rough, like occasionally missing or something. I can watch my tach dip every time it misses.

My igniter is new, but I'm going to test it too now...

I grabbed a spare dizzy from the yard on Saturday. I'm going to test it and then try swapping it to see if there is a difference. I'm thinking if the idle smooths out I may have solved the problem, hopefully.

Update: the distributor from the yard tested fine, so I swapped it. The car cold started fine and my idle seems to have smoothed out. We'll see if it starts in the morning.

[Dr_Snooz]

It sounds like you have a new issue to me. Before, you had a rough idle, flooding and no start. Now you have a hard start. What's going on with the starting now?

[niles]

Same thing really. With my old distributor the engine just turns and turns without an attempt to fire. Then eventually it will start.

But the good news is that the car started just fine this morning with the JY distributor, and its especially good news because we are having a cold front in the 30's. I always assume its harder to start a finicky car in the cold... lol

[Jafir]

After market igniters can be junk. I'll bet the junk yard igniter is OE. They don't really go bad very often. I think most people that have to replace them are replacing aftermarket igniters that were installed as some sort of shotgun troubleshooting from a previous issue. :)

[niles]

After market igniters can be junk. I'll bet the junk yard igniter is OE. They don't really go bad very often. I think most people that have to replace them are replacing aftermarket igniters that were installed as some sort of shotgun troubleshooting from a previous issue. :)

I completely agree about the igniter. The JY igniter is genuine TEC, where the igniter in my old distributor was generic bought in a closeout sale from RockAuto.

The two parts tested differently. Tonight I am going to compare everything that is testable on the two distributors and record my results. I did a quick and dirty test last night, but the weird part is that neither distributor had results that matched the shop manual.

I have seen incorrect information in the manual before, like the ignition coil test procedure. But I guess that's another topic for another time.

[Oldblueaccord]

I completely agree about the igniter. The JY igniter is genuine TEC, where the igniter in my old distributor was generic bought in a closeout sale from RockAuto.

The two parts tested differently. Tonight I am going to compare everything that is testable on the two distributors and record my results. I did a quick and dirty test last night, but the weird part is that neither distributor had results that matched the shop manual.

I have seen incorrect information in the manual before, like the ignition coil test procedure. But I guess that's another topic for another time.

Well good sticking with it.

I got one of those rockauto ignitors too stocked up. Lets get them tested up.

Do you think on your old one its loosing its ground?

[niles]

Here is the comparison between the parts I had on hand.

Master Manual Section 12-30
----------------------------------------------------------------
Crank Angle Sensors - Both Pass
Old Dist: 721ohms
JY Dist: 883ohms
(but neither showed continuity to ground.. might just be my ohm meter)


Electrical Manual Section 24-9
----------------------------------------------------------------

Pickup Coil Test - Both Pass

Old Dist: 12v
JY Dist: 12v


Igniter Testing Results

Continuity Test - Suspicious
Original: Inconclusive
Discount Replacement: Good
JY Part: Good
(might also be ohm meter related)

Input Resistance Test - Suspicious
Original: 70.3kohms
Discount Replacement: 55.8kohms
JY Part: 72.3kohms

Part Numbers:
Original: NEC MC-5357 CE010
Discount Replacement: 9901 BE40020
JY Part: NEC MC-5357 AS011

Two distributors, one was with the car since I got it, the other was from the junkyard from a car with 100,000 miles less than my original one.

Three igniters, the original one that came with the car, the discount one from Rock Auto that has been in use for a year or two, and the one that came with the junkyard distributor.

So in conclusion, the car is running pretty good right now while using the junkyard distributor with the junkyard igniter. Idles very smooth and starts well, I've only driven it twice so far though. I want to switch out the junkyard igniter with the discount igniter I was using before. I suspect that is the culprit. But it was getting dark outside and it's super windy right now.

[Dr_Snooz]

I don't buy anything on closeout from Rock Auto. I've had nothing but trouble. Mostly stuff shows up broken in the devastated remains of what was once a box. The igniter I ordered from them looked like it had been run over by a forklift. The leads were bent over and broken. They gave me a refund that I used to buy a non-closeout igniter that works to this day, years later.

If memory serves, the stuff on closeout is old and damaged overstock that they find in some forgotten warehouse somewhere. They pay next to nothing for it, then blow it out at a huge discount. Eighty-percent of it comes back bad, but they still make money on it, I guess. It really doesn't help their reputation though.

[niles]

I don't buy anything on closeout from Rock Auto. I've had nothing but trouble. Mostly stuff shows up broken in the devastated remains of what was once a box. The igniter I ordered from them looked like it had been run over by a forklift. The leads were bent over and broken. They gave me a refund that I used to buy a non-closeout igniter that works to this day, years later.

If memory serves, the stuff on closeout is old and damaged overstock that they find in some forgotten warehouse somewhere. They pay next to nothing for it, then blow it out at a huge discount. Eighty-percent of it comes back bad, but they still make money on it, I guess. It really doesn't help their reputation though.

I agree, actually I don't trust any aftermarket parts, because I know they are usually inferior quality.

Edit: I also forgot to mention that the bearings in the JY distributor feel much better than my original too.

For now my car works, and the weather has turned nasty. So if anything comes up and I am forced to do more troubleshooting I will post my results here.

[Susanoo]

Sounds like it's time to go obd1 bro. Lol I would swap your coil for the msd blaster 2 just to make sure you're getting good spark energy. But that's just me.

[Oldblueaccord]

So you got yours to run?

http://www.3geez.com/forum/efi-tech/78994-no-start-situation-1400-miles-obd1-3.html#post1111992

http://www.3geez.com/forum/efi-tech/80767-obd1-still-having-issues-getting-running-right.html#post1115036