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View Full Version : '86 EFI Cold Idle Issue



Fixedit
04-02-2015, 09:35 AM
Okay, I'm sorry for taking up this entire forum with my crap, but I realized I never posted anywhere about an issue my engine has.

I tried to explain it in my "Cylinder Head Bolts BT Engine" thread, but didn't spend the time to give the big picture. This is an '86 Automatic EFI LXi.

I'll start with these issues;

1. Anytime the engine is started when cold, it revs to 1500-2000RPM for a good minute to warm itself up. Once it is out of that cycle, it'll try to idle at 900-1000RPM. It soon starts to constantly rev and drop for a good ten minutes, ranging from 1000 to 1800RPM. It's a quick pattern, revving and dropping about every second. It stops once the temp gauge reads about a quarter from the bottom, and will idle at about 1100 to 1200RPM, depending on the day (who knows what). Some days it'll idle rough at 1000RPM, pittering and puttering, it sounds like I have a mild cam in a V8. After driving for a good trip, the temp gauge wont ever really reach much further than a 1/4 from the bottom, maybe 1/3. Idling in park after a drive it will sit at a less rough, nicer 1000RPM, maybe even dropping to a splendid 850-900.

2. For a total of maybe THREE times I've owned this car (since September 2014), I've "Blown my head gasket". The car drives great, and then I'll come to a stop, put it park, and it starts running real rough, like 3 cylinders firing, with tons of white puffy coolant smelling smoke from the tail pipe. I come back to it after a few hours, starts right up and runs great. No problems other than #1, which happens on cold start ups anyways.



I've done so much research about issues, enough to confuse myself. MAP sensor is good. Adjusted EACV. Smoked intake: no vacuum leaks. So I tried burping the cooling system; bubbles constantly --> Exhaust gasses entering cooling system. Visual inspection of jungle of coolant hoses above transmission shows at least one has a pin hole leak, and the back of the engine block looks like someone puked down the side of it. So I have a coolant leak, a really small one. Maybe cause by the exhaust gasses? Are the hot gasses screwing with the EACV? How do the exhaust gasses escape the system?

I could possibly have a cracked head; but wouldn't that be evident EVERY time I get up to operating temp? This has happened just a few times. I think the head gasket is blown in a way that it's only letting exhaust into the cooling system, and somehow I have a cracked head that doesn't open up every time the engine is hot.

The only reason I have not done a compression test is solely because Cylinder #2 Spark plug is in a thread repair sleeve. I replaced the plugs when I first got the car, and that one broke in the head, and I had to drill it out. The sleeve went in crooked, and I'm too scared to take the plug out for a compression test because it pulls the sleeve out with it, and this is my only daily driver right now, I can't park it and take the head to the machine shop to be checked for a crack or repaired.


To sum it up; What causes a surging cold idle, rough warm idle, and coolant to enter a cylinder extremely infrequently?

Hauntd ca3
04-02-2015, 12:42 PM
how did you "burp "the cooling system ?
Just leaving the radiator cap off and running it or by the bleeder ?
Air trapped in the system can screw with the idle if you get a big bubble at the ecu temp sensor.
The ecu thinks the car is cold and speeds up the idle, the air bubble moves and coolant gets around the sensor , ecu thinks motor is warm and drops the idle , air bubble moves back and so on.
you could go to a mechanic and get a tk test done. it is basically a test to pic up if there are combustion gases in the cooling system which indicates a blown head gasket.

Fixedit
04-02-2015, 12:54 PM
I hooked up a funnel at the radiator cap and filled the funnel half way. After 45 minutes of idling like that it was still producing little bubbles constantly. I can test for combustion gasses at my shop once we get more of that blue shiznaz for the tester, but it's like a bottom of the list kind of thing right now, so much going on.

Fixedit
04-03-2015, 08:07 AM
Also I have the EGR code (12 flashes I believe) and I think I'm running rich, getting 25/26 MPG

Fixedit
04-08-2015, 07:05 AM
Adjusted the EACV down once again and that has solved the idle surge issue. Just seems like it idles way too low. Still going to do a head gasket eventually though

Fixedit
05-01-2015, 07:29 AM
Filled up the coolant last night for a trip I'm taking today, and this morning after a 30 minute drive it started smoking sitting in park. It's gotta be a cracked head. Once it burns off enough coolant (the entire reservoir and maybe the top tank of the radiator) it never smokes. Also, according to the gauge I have no overheating issues (I've checked this with a temp gun before just not recently). My oil has never been discolored, either. Any opinions/advice?

Dr_Snooz
05-03-2015, 09:09 PM
A cracked head is a good hypothesis, but you have to test it before spending a lot of money on repairs. Have you done a leakdown test? Compression test? Cooling system pressure test? The exhaust gas test you mentioned earlier? If plug #2 has issues, then you need to get it fixed. Eventually that plug will need to be replaced or will itself start causing problems. If you can't do proper testing, then you'll never figure it out.

Remember that coolant also runs through the IACV, fast idle valve and throttle body. Though unlikely, given the right combination of poor maintenance, abuse and sloppy QC, any of those areas could leak coolant into the combustion chamber. I would carefully inspect each of those components, looking for any signs of leakage. Pay special attention to the fast idle valve and IACV, since you're already having issues with those. When you find something out of spec, fix it properly. Fix your leaking hoses and get the CEL resolved by following the troubleshooting flow charts in section 12 of the manual.

If it does end up being a cracked head or head gasket, do a very careful visual inspection of the gasket surfaces while you have it apart. Replace the head bolts also.

Oldblueaccord
05-04-2015, 04:22 AM
This start before or after the the insert was put in. I wonder it its cracked there.

Fixedit
05-05-2015, 08:05 AM
I read Dr Snooz's post and the car did another "I'm gonna drive fine but billow smoke as soon as you park" act, so I finally got the balls to take out the #3 bad spark plug. Definitely never going to be able to install a new plug into that hole again, so I want to get a new head whether or not the head is cracked. Anyways, I did some tests last night.

Started with a cylinder leakage test, then a compression test. I've done a cooling system pressure test in the past and had no leak, which baffles me. Also, the hose tools used for the compression and leakdown test did not thread into Cyl. #3 very well, so the results are a little worse than they actually are, but I'm going to just go with them because it doesn't make a difference.

Leakdown test: (All starting at 94 p.s.i.)

Cyl. #1 - Down to 90psi

Cyl. #2 - Down to 86-88psi

Cyl. #3 - Down to 86psi or so, and coolant began overflowing out of the radiator (I took the cap off)

Cyl. #4 - Down to 86psi

Compression test (8 cranks each) correlated with this data;

1 - 195psi
2 - 180psi
3 - 125psi
4 - 155psi (would have been better with a less tired battery, but I'm guess this cylinder is also leaking past gasket)

Dr Snooz, where can I get head bolts for this car? I was told before that they can be reused when I originally wanted to replace them. Is there a stud kit out there from ARP? Going to try and get a head from O'Reilly's or Napa instead of some random online site like last time.

Fixedit
05-05-2015, 10:32 AM
Spark plug pictures

#1
http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab169/cheesenugget_bucket/IMG_20150504_191242127_zpslahy71hm.jpg (http://s860.photobucket.com/user/cheesenugget_bucket/media/IMG_20150504_191242127_zpslahy71hm.jpg.html)


#2
http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab169/cheesenugget_bucket/IMG_20150504_191259702_zpsjemm12i3.jpg (http://s860.photobucket.com/user/cheesenugget_bucket/media/IMG_20150504_191259702_zpsjemm12i3.jpg.html)


#3 (different type, replaced it before replacing other three which isn't smart I know)
http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab169/cheesenugget_bucket/IMG_20150504_191329387_zpsojvam5u7.jpg (http://s860.photobucket.com/user/cheesenugget_bucket/media/IMG_20150504_191329387_zpsojvam5u7.jpg.html)


#4 (Threads aren't stripped, just weird lighting)
http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab169/cheesenugget_bucket/IMG_20150504_191420868_zps210qceea.jpg (http://s860.photobucket.com/user/cheesenugget_bucket/media/IMG_20150504_191420868_zps210qceea.jpg.html)

Dr_Snooz
05-05-2015, 06:59 PM
I might not have understood your first post. Have you replaced the head gasket 3x or only had the smoke issue 3x? If you've been replacing head gaskets a lot, then you have something else going on, like stretched head bolts, atypical coolant leak, etc. If not, then your leak down test would seem to suggest some kind of failure between cylinder #3 and the cooling system.

I don't know of any non-invasive way to diagnose a head gasket conclusively, but whatever is going on will make more sense when you get it opened up.

Why does spark plug #3 look mangled?

Fixedit
05-05-2015, 09:12 PM
Oh haha no, it's only blown heavy smoke 3x (4 times now) I haven't ever removed the head before. If I confused you by saying "like last time" in regards to the off brand website, I had actually ordered a reman cylinder head from Cylinderheadsonly.com and it had some shitty weld repairs that blocked off the two middle coolant passages by the exhaust ports, so I sent it back. Oh yeah, I don't recommend Cylinderheadsonly.com (or headsonly or whatever it's called). And plug #3 is the one that's in a thread sleeve, since an old plug broke in the head and had to be drilled out. The hole drilled was cockeyed, so the sleeve went in cockeyed, and the spark plug's crush ring/washer contacted the head before seating, thus deforming it. 10,000 miles of driving partially melted the washer to the head, so in order for the plug to come out it need to thread out of it's washer, which destroys some threads.

Do you know where I can find head bolts or studs?

Fixedit
05-06-2015, 03:09 PM
As it turns out, no parts stores around me can get a reman head anymore, just my luck. I have a couple more questions;

How well would an '89 A20A3 cylinder head work on my '86 BT Block?

Does anyone have a source for remanned heads/a spare BT head laying around?

I want to either buy a reman head from a good reliable source, or have one that isn't cracked and has good spark plug holes rebuilt locally.

Thank you for all of your help!

Dr_Snooz
05-10-2015, 04:39 PM
Why don't you take your existing head to a local machine shop and see what they can do for you?

Fixedit
05-10-2015, 05:03 PM
I thought about it, but figured they wouldn't be comfortable trying to fix the spark plug hole. I mean it's really screwed up.

I'm actually just going to use the head off an engine I have for an '89 and have it checked. I'll use it and hope for the best.

Demon1024
05-15-2015, 01:13 AM
it's a better head the cam I believe is a bit different. Could be wrong tho. Port match it and have it milled, get the valves and guides done and presto! of course check your block for warpage too, but not as likely as the head to have problems

Fixedit
05-15-2015, 07:17 AM
That's good to know! I got it back yesterday after a cleaning, milling, and full valve job. I'll be happy to have four normal spark plug holes. Right now it's all up to time; I wont be able to do this job until next weekend, and that's still a maybe.

Do you happen to know what/where to find the differences in the cam between 86 and 89 (BT & A20A3)?