rocker & quarter repair

[steverine]

Is there any good way to repair rusted rocker panels & rear wheel arches, with new metal, without welding? I am fairly accomplished do-it-yourselfer but have never done welding (and not interested in starting). I have an '88 DX with only 200k on it and am repairing above areas, one way or another, in hope of getting several more years out of the car.

I found new metal wheel arches and am wondering if feasible to rivet them on - tap in a depression around where new arch would meet original body, rivet new metal in place, then fill in remaining depression & refinish.

And for the rocker panels - I'm wondering about just cutting off the outer rocker panel altogether, and then repairing and refinishing the inner rocker as the new exterior surface. Existing outer panels have 5-6 good-sized holes (2" to 6"+), while the inner panels only seem to have a couple, and much smaller, holes.

Am I completely off my rocker? (No pun intended.) (OK, maybe it was.) Has anyone ever done either of the above before? Should I just clean up the existing as much as possible, fill w/ fiberglass, and leave it at that? Is anyone else out there even still trying to keep these cars on the road at this point? (Mine is now 27 years old... it can vote; it can drink, it can own a gun; it can even rent itself. :-) ) Seriously, I've read through a bunch of other threads on this topic, including "Carotman's '87 hatch project", but with that one exception most of the others were 2008... 2007... earlier. Have tried to contact carotman directly but no success to date.

I would be interested in any insights or comments about making this repair, particularly from people more experienced than I, and particularly about the riveting idea. I am also pretty new to posting like this, so would be interested in hearing if there are any other forums, in addition to 3geez Accords, to which I should be posting this inquiry.

Thanks for reading.

[Dr_Snooz]

You found new quarter panels for these cars??? I'd recommend that you verify they are in stock. I had a time finding a hood a few years ago, so double check before getting too happy. If they truly exist, post the source for the rest of us. Most of the time, quarter panels are spot welded to the car, which is basically a kind of riveting. I wouldn't trust aluminum pop rivets to hold up for the long term, so look for something more substantial, like bolts maybe. The rocker panel idea sounds pretty lame to me. I think it will look like a chop shop abortion when you're done, but do what you think is best. It's not my car.

This is just my two cents, and others will have different ideas, but you're really trying to re-invent the wheel here. Welding is the way to do this job. You don't have to buy an expensive welder to get the job done and it's another skill you can tuck in your memory bank for use later. I'd look at it as an opportunity to learn something new and awesome. I readily admit though that highly visible, aesthetically important sheet metal is not the place I'd want to learn welding. It's better to build a few barbecues or rebar storks or something first.

[steverine]

You found new quarter panels for these cars??? (...)



They're not full quarterpanels; but they're sitting in my living room right now. Got them through Mill Supply, in Cleveland (I think), online as Rust Repair Panels | Replacment Body Panels | Chevy - Honda - Ford - Dodge (http://www.rustrepair.com). I'll try to post a pic of the part taken from the website. As I said they're not full quarters; they were labeled "rear wheel arches" and are basically 6" or so of metal around the wheel well. I have held them up against the existing metal & they seem to fit. I figure even if not perfect, with whatever back-alley modifications may be required they'd still end up looking way better than the existing rustiness.

Thanks for your advice about riveting and about the rockers. Yeah, I'm sure welding is the best way to do it; but probably not feasible for me (obsessive-compulsive tendencies, which means going "one step further" into anything is risky time-wise. Plus I don't have a garage - am doing this in the back alley behind my house.) And you're right about the "highly visible, aesthetically important" thing, too. :-)

I'm assuming it wouldn't be worth it to pay someone to weld, although never having done it myself I have no idea how much time would be involved. (I've found 2 yards so far that claim to have several cars, without rust - one in NC, one in Nevada - so getting replacement pieces shipped here is theoretically possible...) Any thoughts on this?

Picture will be in separate post.

[steverine]

picture, as promised...

[steverine]

Here are a couple pics of the car as it sits now in my back alley.

In looking for parts recently I came across talk of both "outer" and "inner" rocker panels. I didn't know they existed separately; however in the third pic I think I can see them (two separate sheets of metal, both outboard of the jack support). So when folks talk of replacing "rocker panels", what is generally meant by that - just the outer, or both?

(I've also asked more about this in an earlier post.)

Any further insight from experienced body folks will be appreciated!

[gp02a0083]

oo yah thats gonna need some time with the saw and grinder. I have those patch panels from mill supply, they appear to be decent gauge metal and all. They were available many years ago when i worked on my gold hatch. They are better now with the ordering system, just check the tins when they arrive for any damage. Your going to need to find a donor for a bunch of the metal to make life a bit easier.

in regards to the 1/4 panel, usually when people talk about replacing a 1/4 it means the outer shell unless the inner 1/4 or inner structure needs replacement as well. The arch patch panel will be an easier job than the rocker as it looks pretty corroded.

As Snooz mentioned, welding is the way to go on this, rivits will hold but not all that long. Many guys that do not have access to a pinch welder also use plug welds as an acceptable re-work. If access to a welder is out of the question, you may want to see how much a local shop would charge for the metal/ welding work and save money by doing all paint prep work yourself if the overall plan is to get it re-sprayed. You may also want to look into some of the 3M structural adhesives, i do not have personal experience with that material. I have seen it used in newer repairs and the assembly of certian uni-bodies.

[steverine]

Thanks for the info.


Your going to need to find a donor for a bunch of the metal to make life a bit easier.
You mean for the rockers, right?

[gp02a0083]

yah the inner structure looks corroded as well, dunno how bad its gonna be until its cut and opened up

[Oldblueaccord]

My only comment is there are some nice RUST free cars popping up from time to time on the want ads here. Drive the nice one in the summer and the rusted one in the winter if it will pass inspection.

[Dr_Snooz]

You have some gnarly rust there. If it were a little hole in a flat surface, you could fudge your way around it. Unfortunately, you're well beyond that point and I don't think there's a cheap or easy way of fixing it. Even if you get very good at welding very quickly, it's still going to be a bear of a job. If you want to get an idea of what you're up against, Gearz had a good show on it.

https://www.staceydavid.com/episodes/bushmaster-2281

[steverine]

Well, an update is due here. I did find a pair of good rocker panels from a car in a yard in Idaho, and now have them here. Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on your perspective - i.e. if you're my wife), back on August 2 while gathering you guys' advice and looking for parts I stumbled across an ad here on 3geez for an 87 LXi in CA, with virtually no rust. So I bought it. As of August 26, that car is my daily driver. But since I had already looked all over and finally located these parts... I couldn't stop myself from going ahead & buying them too. The thought was / is to still complete this repair.

So, back in August, I started cutting into the existing rocker & quarter of the original car, the ’88 DX, to see how far the rust went. Think I did ok on the rockers, but hoping NOT more harm than good on the wheel well. Will post pics here soon so you can see what I mean. There is at least one restoration shop near me, so intend to take it to them & see (after they finish laughing) what kind of a ballpark $ they will give me for cleaning up my mess. By which I mean: cutting out whatever more is needed, sealing up the innerds, and then welding on the replacement rocker and new arch.

I would still do whatever more prep I could beforehand, and then all the refinishing. My hope is that with this approach the cost will not be prohibitive. The good news is the passenger side doesn't need anything! (When I began working on driver's side, I hadn't even looked closely at the passenger’s, since I knew the driver's was worse and feared it might be the end of the car.) But it turns out some repairs from a couple years ago on the pass. side are still solid enough to pass inspection. So I'm only looking at doing the driver’s side, instead of both.

Pictures to follow soon.

[Dr_Snooz]

Congrats on the purchase and good luck with the repair.

[steverine]

Here is long-delayed follow-up to my Oct 2 post. A couple general pics showing both cars - the old red '88, which is the reason I started this thread, and the “newer" '87, which I bought from another forum member. That one - the grey 87 - is in great shape and is now my daily driver. The other pics are of the current condition of the ‘88. It no longer passes state inspection. Am almost, but not quite, ready to give up on it. Here’s where I stand now:

As mentioned in October, I got good replacement rockers and driver's door. However, all but one local body shop said $1000-1200 just to cut & weld on the new metal (with me doing more prep + everything after.) I am inclined to think that's not cost-effective. All are full-service body shops & don’t seem willing to go below insurance-quality, "like new" standards. I'd still be happy to pay somebody more like 500 to do just the actual cutting & welding - somebody who knows what they're doing, but who is willing to do a rougher job on this older vehicle. I know of one such place but they say they’re not interested.

Other options: 1) keep the 88 just for parts for the other one; 2) fix the '88 with POR-15, lots of filler, maybe some sandblasting; 3) try welding myself (despite previously-described objections).

This is where you all come in. See pics below and separate posts. Any comments/recommendations? The car has been started & driven occasionally through the winter. Body work remains only obstacle to getting it back on the road. Am interested to hear anything further anyone may have to say. Thanks for reading.

[steverine]

Here are detailed pics of rocker panel that go along with text posted a few minutes ago.

[steverine]

...and of wheel well.

[Oldblueaccord]

If that red car has the black or gray black interior thats a pretty sought after item IMHO. Might be worth something to sell. Very unusually color combo.

My question is what makes it fail inspection in PA? My guess is rust through make it fail?

Does the E brake and all the other safety stuff pass as well. All that could add up.

That being said I really feel older Japan cars are the next hot thing so some investment is not that crazy an idea.

[Dr_Snooz]

I'd bet someone in those body shops moonlights on the side. Might be worth standing outside at quitting time and making a new friend. That said, it's an intricate repair. You're in a tough spot.

[gp02a0083]

like snooz said you might want to befriend autobody guys. From the pictures you posted it looks like a decent amount of work there. The arches through mill supply will help out as you posted, I used them for my hatch and they are ok. Rockers your gonna have to dig around, i've seen one or two places that had listed rockers for a coupe and for a sedan, I don"t remember who it was tho. however i'm worried that the inner structure is gone. I really think best bet is either to abandon the chassis, or if willing to go this route, get a donor to cut up.