First classic accord oil leak or blow by

[sona1111]

Hey guys, first post on this forum!

I have been in touch with the folks over at hondaaccordforum but I wanted to get a second set of ears on some questions I had about this honda. I bought the car (1989 automatic LX) pretty cheap from someone. It only has 64000 miles - they claimed that it had been sitting for a while because their father moved to another country or something similar, so I knew I was in for some problems, but why not try. Took it for a test drive and everything went well as I knew, so I bought it.

I finally got it registered and took it for a highway drive. There were only a few minor problems that I noticed during the drive. Only when I got home did I notice the issues.

I noticed 10 minutes after parking that two oil spots had formed under the car, none of which were apparent while doing tests while idling. One was at the front driver side of the car and one was almost directly under the oil filter, but I don't think this means much because the oil seems to be dripping from elsewhere and those spots were just for escape. The oil looked slightly green as if it could be a head gasket problem, but I am not sure - when doing drain and fill the coolant did not look oily and the oil did not look milky. After less than 10 miles on the drive today the oil went from the top hole of the dipstick to the middle, so clearly I can not continue to use the vehicle like this. Lastly I noticed that there was some blow-by from the valve cover, but at idle the smoke was just slightly visible. I am not sure if that much oil could be coming from the blow-by, but if it is a possibility, then please let me know.

Am looking to find out what tests I can do or parts I can replace to stop the oil problem. I hope to keep it for at least a year or two.

Thanks for reading.

[Griff]

I would degrease the engine to better spot where the leaks are coming from. If oil is leaking from the bottom of the lower timing belt cover it's probably a bad front main oil seal, cam oil seal, or oil pump seals. All these seals are easy to replace if you have the timing belt off (I'd recommend you replace the timing belt; it's cheap, easy, a good insurance, and you can possible fix some oil leaks).

The oil filter could leak if the oil filter base gasket fails. Make sure you didn't double gasket the oil filter too.

And are you saying the valve cover gasket is leaking?

[Oldblueaccord]

If that cars been sitting 10 years that oil is junk.Change it.

Dont got expensive just get some regular 10/40 10/30 dino oil and start fresh with a new filter.

With that low mileage it should be ok on the piston rings. A compression test or better yet a leak down test will tell you how well the rings are seating.

[sona1111]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the suggestions. I already did many maintenance items before the highway drive.

-oil and filter (5w30 currently)
-both fuel filters
-coolant
-ATF
-spark plugs
-air cleaner

I think a compression test is in order to tell if the engine is still fixable, and to find where the excessive blow-by is coming from. Has anyone tried the ones for rent from autozone? are they ok? Has anyone ever heard of a blow-by so bad that 1/2qt oil is lost from a sub 10 mile drive from the blow-by alone? As soon as I can verify the rings are ok I will start to look to fix the other gaskets near the timing belt.

Thanks

[Oldblueaccord]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the suggestions. I already did many maintenance items before the highway drive.

-oil and filter (5w30 currently)
-both fuel filters
-coolant
-ATF
-spark plugs
-air cleaner

I think a compression test is in order to tell if the engine is still fixable, and to find where the excessive blow-by is coming from. Has anyone tried the ones for rent from autozone? are they ok? Has anyone ever heard of a blow-by so bad that 1/2qt oil is lost from a sub 10 mile drive from the blow-by alone? As soon as I can verify the rings are ok I will start to look to fix the other gaskets near the timing belt.

Thanks

If its burning oil that bad you will see it and smell it.

I drive one old car that goes thru about 300-500 miles on a quart. Full throttle you will see it out the back. You will smell it too when its idling at stop lights etc.

Might try some Reslone or magic oil to free up the rings.

[5 Speed Speeder]

Were both those oil measurements taken cold?

[sona1111]

Hi,

The 'full' measurement was taken cold. The 'middle' measurement was taken hot. (meaning it likely was low by that point) I could see and smell something burning under the hood after stopping, it was a light grey smoke which seemed to be coming from around the exhaust manifold (it most likely dripped there). Opening the oil cap directly after the drive also showed some smoke coming up from inside valve cover (car was off). Perhaps oil getting too hot after draining? The car does not seem to burn any oil though. (in the traditional sense, as in no blue smoke from exhaust and no oil on the pipe) I still don't know if the oil could all be from blow-by unless I take a hose and redirect the valve cover hose somewhere else under the car and see if the location of the dripping changes.

Now to clarify some confusion I am having about piston rings: because I can see some blow-by during idle, at least part of the problem if not all of it is to do with compression. I did not expect a low mileage honda engine to have many internal issues, but I guess not knowing the full history of the vehicle anything is possible. I have seen many posts while researching this topic about "stuck rings" and "freeing stuck rings" (like OldBlueAccord states), but I don't understand in a technical sense what is happening. How can a ring attached to the piston be 'stuck' in the traditional sense? What is actually happening that can be fixed? If I obtain a compression tester or other tool, is there any way to tell if any discovered low compression is caused by 'stuck rings' instead of 'blown rings'? Does anyone have a general procedure that has produced any results using an oil additive like your suggested 'marvel mystery oil'? For example, do I put in the additive, and keep driving over an hour and stop once in a while to add more regular 5w-30 to keep the level at an acceptable level?

Thank you; I really appreciate the hints.

[Oldblueaccord]

Im at work but real quick.

Piston rings have to float as they move with the piston up and down. If there gunked up they wont,if they loose there tension from age they wont. If there chipped or broken they wont. The oil control ring just letting oil in to the combustion chamber.

Leak down will show some of this.

Prolly from starting it after sitting and they were stuck in the bore a little. Always want to oil cylinder down and crank before firing a motor but most dont have the patience.

[sona1111]

After doing some research on other sites, it looks like the procedure is to take off the spark plugs and put in some mystery oil (or some other combination of fluids) down into the cylinder without removing the oil from the crankcase. Then at some point crank the engine around by hand a bit and leave the solution to sit for a while. After this you place a rag over the spark plug holes and crank with the starter to catch the oil flying off, then put the plugs back and try to start and see what happens! IF this is correct I have a few questions:

-any way to stop fuel from going into the cylinders during this procedure? (cranking with no spark plugs) I think it might flood it.
-the cylinders on this engine seem to be tilted pretty extreme to the front of the car. Should I fill them up almost completely with fluid to get all the way around the base of the cylinder/ring?
-are there any success stories here of someone who has actually tried this method?

Thanks for reading

[Demon1024]

Fi? Can just remove the injector plugs. Carb remove the fuel pump fuse.
not filled just enough that the piston moving will have enough to spread it around on cylinder walls before firing it up, after letting it sit to loosen things up if using mystery or other
It has to be true, it's on the internet! But seriously if the stuck rings are the problem I'd try a solvent first then re lube with some oil. I'd say try solvent then relube, start it let it run a bit, then compression test it after it cools off.
Try a new valves cover gasket when you clean it. The most common leaks are that,oil filter base,distributor O-ring and the 2 seals on the pulley side.
Compression should be IMO over 100psi and no more than 5% variance between cylinders
Gl and don't forget to keep us posted!

[sona1111]

Hey Demon,

Thanks for the tips. Should solvent follow the same process as the mystery oil? (put in spark plug hole, wait a while, squirt out with starter, fire up) What kind of solvent would you recommend? I am going to give one of these two a shot tonight and let it sit overnight and check on the seals tomorrow.

Thanks for reading!

[sona1111]

Well I have bigger problems now. I got halfway over to my friends house to look at the seals together when something exploded and there is coolant all over everything! I don't know how difficult this is to fix but I cant look at it until everything cools down. I might need a tow home...

[sona1111]

Ok well I managed to fix that issue. Thermostat was bad did not open all the way causing the coolent pressure to build and blow up. Replaced the radiator and thermostat and all is good. Still looking for tips on the blow-by issue though...

[sona1111]

Ok well just rented a compression test today, and it's not too good, but I also am not 100% sure what I am doing so maybe what I did was wrong too. In any case would appreciate any more suggestions:

What I did: Idle car for 5 minutes. Took off all plugs to ignition coil, and removed fuel pump fuse. Took off all plug wires and spark plugs. Hooked up compression test thingy to one cylinder, crank over counting 7 'turns' (you can hear a pitch difference between each turn). Look at number, repeat for next cylinder. I did not press the gas pedal at all for any of this. (except the idleing part haha) I also re-gapped all of the spark plugs to 0.044 while they were out.

Numbers from passenger side to drivers: 75, 70, 60, 110

So....very bad it seems. Any suggestion what could be checked next? Additionally, there is a problem with the idle I think. With the car cold or hot, shifting into gear, either reverse or drive, has a 50% chance of stalling the car. Is there any quick solution to this such as a common vacuum leak spot or possibly making the idle higher?

Thanks for all of your suggestions.

[rigel]

i just assumed when i bought my auction car that i'd need to replace the head gasket. i did, now it runs pretty well, though it burns a little oil.

someone mentioned here when i was rebuilding the top end that i should have just bought a gasket kit, and they were right. full gasket kits can be had from rockauto for less than $50. going into it i just assumed that all the gaskets were going to be crap after 30 years, so every one i encountered while tearing down the top end, i replaced. if yours has sat for a while, i would say it's probably a good idea to replace gaskets regardless.

the point you're at now, there's really no getting around removing the head. you could be leaking from the valves, or you could be leaking from the head gasket, or worst case, your block is cracked. since you're going to crack it open anyway (maybe it's a poorly seated or burnt valve, who knows) might as well just replace all the wear items.

you're going to want to adjust the valves too, but do that after you put everything back together. theres lots of youtube videos on rebuilding your top end. thats how i learned it.

[sona1111]

Hmm well,

It is a little scary: I have never done any internal engine work. How many days do you estimate it may take? Do you possibly have a link or two to one of the youtube videos that you found to help you out the most?

[rigel]

this guy's got a whole series of videos on cylinder heads. hes working on a DOHC and our accords are SOHC but the process is the same

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjmplL0Sfac

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GEmuQa3dPY

"eric the car guy" also has a lot of videos, they skew towards basic maintenance but theres info on how to do a valve adjustment and other stuff too.

[sona1111]

Hey,

Thanks for the links. I hope I can manage it without breaking things... Is it possible to do a leakdown test before to know if the problem is the valves or rings, or not worth it? If so, what equipment do I need to buy, or what have you used for it?

Thanks.

[rigel]

the way i see it, if it's the rings, you're gonna take the whole damn engine apart anyhow. eventually. you can go for a while with ring problems.
if it's the valves, that's a lot more manage-able. clean them or replace them, make sure theyre seated well.

but again, you're not going to be able to avoid taking some shit apart.

[sona1111]

Thank you for the advice,

Ok so basically my strategy for now is to take off the head and try to clean the valves, and replace some of the gaskets around the valve guides and other gaskets on the head, but leave the rings for now, at least for a first job. I know I have been asking a lot, but one more thing if you get a chance: what kind of kit or parts would you recommend I buy for this procedure? Should I try to get a whole engine rebuild kit or is something available for the head specifically? Any reseller you would recommend?

Thanks much!

[rigel]

something like More Information for DNJ ENGINE COMPONENTS FGS2006 (http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=1817716&cc=1166969&jsn=380) or https://www.amazon.com/Victor-FS5735-Full-Engine-Gasket/dp/B000CLKECQ is probably going to be your best bet. full gasket set, including valve seals.

if youre going to do a full cleaning of the valves (which may require some replacement as well, and/or some honing) this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dfzeMgrHqA shows a really nice process for making sure they all wind up back in the right spot (as well as the cleaning itself)

good luck, and let us all know how things evolve!

[Oldblueaccord]

Ok well just rented a compression test today, and it's not too good, but I also am not 100% sure what I am doing so maybe what I did was wrong too. In any case would appreciate any more suggestions:

What I did: Idle car for 5 minutes. Took off all plugs to ignition coil, and removed fuel pump fuse. Took off all plug wires and spark plugs. Hooked up compression test thingy to one cylinder, crank over counting 7 'turns' (you can hear a pitch difference between each turn). Look at number, repeat for next cylinder. I did not press the gas pedal at all for any of this. (except the idleing part haha) I also re-gapped all of the spark plugs to 0.044 while they were out.

Numbers from passenger side to drivers: 75, 70, 60, 110

So....very bad it seems. Any suggestion what could be checked next? Additionally, there is a problem with the idle I think. With the car cold or hot, shifting into gear, either reverse or drive, has a 50% chance of stalling the car. Is there any quick solution to this such as a common vacuum leak spot or possibly making the idle higher?

Thanks for all of your suggestions.

Double check that the timing belt is correct. The cam and the crank need to be aligned correctly or the compression numbers could be off.

White mark on the crank flywheel and the cam need to line up at TDC,top dead center. That means both valves on the number one cylinder are closed,piston at the top.

Easy to check and its pretty easy to get the alignment off a tooth or two on the belt when its changed.

[sona1111]

So after another Friend's recommendation I did the test again with dry/wet readings and holding the gas full open and 10 crank overs. Here are the new numbers:

No Oil: 110 ; With Oil 165
No Oil: 70 ; With Oil 80
No Oil: 80 ; With Oil 80
No Oil: 100 ; With Oil 110

So it looks less conclusive except that Cylinder 1 seems to have a ring problem and the others are valves? Let me know if this is a correct diagnosis. Will fixing valves only still decrease the blow-by a good amount? The rings seem to be a much more difficult job.

Thank you again!

[Dr_Snooz]

A leakdown tester will tell you what's failing inside the engine. I'm not sure how useful it is to know, honestly. I mean, there isn't much inside that is easy to get to, and once you have it open, well, you might as well do a complete overhaul.

[sona1111]

Hey Dr_Snooz,

Yeah, with the resources I currently have available, I imagine I could try to remove the cylinder head, but I don't really think I could take out the engine completely. It is a discussion outside of car repair, but I don't think I would be able to bring in new tools which are very large. If it turns out to not be the cylinder head then the best I might be able to do it take it somewhere for an engine swap, unless there is some way to do rings without buying massive tools. :) As for the leakdown test, I talked to a few local autoparts stores and it does not seem like any of them rent, or even sell the tools needed for it. Not sure if you have any better suggestions on there to get one, but I think I will have to forget about that test for now.

Thanks for looking

[Dr_Snooz]

Harbor Freight sells them for pretty cheap (Cylinder Leak-Down Tester (http://www.harborfreight.com/cylinder-leak-down-tester-94190.html)) though I have doubts about their accuracy and they are a pain to use. In your case, they require an air compressor, so you're talking about big tools again. The nice thing about them is that they can show you exactly where your leaks are, right down to whether it's an exhaust valve or intake valve that's leaking.

To answer your question, your results indicate a ring problem (pretty bad one) in cylinder #1. The others have valve problems or some combination of rings and valves. That's just based on the results you got. Fixing valves will NOT improve your blowby problem. What most often happens on older engines is that a valve job COMPOUNDS the blowby problem past the rings. The reason being that blowby that used to go past leaky valves before is now forced past the rings, making that problem even worse. In that case, you end up doing an expensive complete overhaul shortly after doing a slightly less expensive head rebuild. You think you're saving money, but you aren't.

There really isn't any way to massage this problem. The engine is tired and needs renewal. I'm not sure what your plans are for it, but if they involve keeping it for some time in a reliable condition, a complete overhaul is needed. I've pulled engines with nothing but a come-along looped over a garage truss. You could even use a tree branch if you really had to. I've done the vast majority of all my mechanic work with the hand tools I keep in two toolboxes. My work now is done on an uneven gravel driveway. It sucks, but I get it done. You don't need a hoist. You don't need a fancy rolling engine stand. You can do the tear down on the floor. You don't need air tools, or a shop, or anything much beyond a basic mechanic's tool kit you can buy at any Autozone. I don't know your situation, of course, but when your resources are limited, creativity and determination will take you a long way.

[sona1111]

Hey Dr_Snooz,

Thanks for the encouragement and tips. Based on yours and others recommendations, I have decided to just try to do the engine swap for a junkyard one. My main problem of 'limited resources' is mainly the working space. I can only use a driveway (angled surface, unsafe for complete lifting IMO) or the street, which is busy. But I will figure something out.

Besides all of the usual tools and the means to lift out the engine, are there any other special tools that you think I will need to buy for this job? Do you know of any threads which show some of the job for removing and replacing the carbd engine? The shop manual is actually pretty good at describing this process but any extra things I could read would always help.

Thanks again!

[Dr_Snooz]

A torque wrench is helpful. Block the wheels well to keep it from rolling. How steep is the grade? You probably don't want to try to roll an engine hoist around on it, but you could maybe build a lopsided gantry crane out of wood and use a come-along. Just brainstorming here. No room in the back yard?

[sona1111]

Hey Dr_Snooz,

I will look around for a good torque wrench, thanks for the tip. Unfortunately the backyard is blocked by a fence with a gate ;) I will post more questions when the problems come up!

Thanks much.

[sona1111]

Hi All,

Not dead yet but very busy. This has been the most hackish repair I have ever tried with so many things to work around that I wont bother listing. But it is my first swap so I guess that will be the way. Currently I am wrestling with two problems if you have any ideas:

1) The exhaust manifold>pipe bolts I was able to get off of the old engine, but when trying to get them off of the junkyard engine (junkyard just cut the pipe), the studs snapped off. Therefore the plan became to swap the exhaust manifold. All the nuts came off fine on both engines but there are two large metal pipes coming out of the manifold as well which I am not able to remove. The smaller one I was able to fit on an open end wrench but no amount of PB blaster / torch seemed to help. The larger one I can not fit any open end wrench I have around it, and pipe wrench is too big - any idea what size it is or another idea?

2) The new engine was from 1988, and the old was 1989. Reading around I did not think this was an issue, but there is one difference I didnt notice: on the crank pulley, the only piece which was not included on the new engine for some reason, the bolt hole is of a smaller size than what it was on the old engine, and so I can not put the bolt that came with the old crank pulley on it. If there any other bolt on the old engine I can use, or should I order something?

Thanks much!

[sona1111]

Hi All,

Yes, quite an extended project for sure. Anyway finally got the majority of the engine swap done. Managed to get it to start today after a huge amount of starting fluid and cranking. Was of course a smokey mess for about 15 minutes but eventually got it settled down. Engine internals sound actually ok. This engine has a little blow by but it is not as bad by a good margin. I think I can get some years out of it if I can fix other problems.

If anyone can comment on any of these issues I have left to tackle I would appreciate it!

-The engine of course does not idle right as the carb was sitting for likely a very long time. Got it to start - it will idle at about 400rpm with the choke closed, but if I open the choke with my finger it will die. Also the choke opener does not work. Furthermore there seems to be a misfire or something at 1000-2000rpm but it runs smoother at 3000 rpm. Also the throttle response is extremely delayed, maybe a second after I press the throttle the rpms rise. (all of these tests out of gear) I have a feeling, though I am not sure, that these problems are likely due to the mess of vac lines and old equipment around the carb. My more experienced assistant for this project recommended I try to follow the tutorial you guys have posted to just remove all of the vac lines going to the black box and cruise control and A/C and just leave a few because most of those components are likely broken anyway. It looks like there was a good tutorial started here: http://www.3geez.com/forum/how/11067-running-keihin-2bbl-carburetor-without-emissions-electronic-contorls.html

But most of the pictures are gone. Would you recommend I try this route? If so does anyone have an archive of those pictures?

-There is one very long bolt (5 inches or so?) which is threaded on the very end which goes into the back transmission mount through both the engine and transmission housings. I can not seem to install this bolt because there is some kind of oil cooler device or something on the engine which blocks me from starting out the bolt (the head hits the lip) If anyone has had this issue before do you know of any solution? I don't remember how the heck I got the bolt off.

-There is a small oil leak which looks like it is coming from the oil pan gasket right above the oil drain plug. I have tightened all of the bolts there to be sure. It looks like about one drop every 20 seconds or something. Is there any kind of additive which would help with this issue or is the only feasible method to replace the gasket?

Overall I am really happy that it started again after all of these years in the junkyard. Hopefully I can still fix these issues!

Thanks as usual!

[Dr_Snooz]

Hi All,

Not dead yet but very busy. This has been the most hackish repair I have ever tried with so many things to work around that I wont bother listing. But it is my first swap so I guess that will be the way. Currently I am wrestling with two problems if you have any ideas:

1) The exhaust manifold>pipe bolts I was able to get off of the old engine, but when trying to get them off of the junkyard engine (junkyard just cut the pipe), the studs snapped off. Therefore the plan became to swap the exhaust manifold. All the nuts came off fine on both engines but there are two large metal pipes coming out of the manifold as well which I am not able to remove. The smaller one I was able to fit on an open end wrench but no amount of PB blaster / torch seemed to help. The larger one I can not fit any open end wrench I have around it, and pipe wrench is too big - any idea what size it is or another idea?

2) The new engine was from 1988, and the old was 1989. Reading around I did not think this was an issue, but there is one difference I didnt notice: on the crank pulley, the only piece which was not included on the new engine for some reason, the bolt hole is of a smaller size than what it was on the old engine, and so I can not put the bolt that came with the old crank pulley on it. If there any other bolt on the old engine I can use, or should I order something?

Thanks much!

As a rule, it's best to replace any exhaust hardware with new. After years of heating cycling, water, rust and so forth, the old hardware is prone to breakage and other problems.


Hi All,

Yes, quite an extended project for sure. Anyway finally got the majority of the engine swap done. Managed to get it to start today after a huge amount of starting fluid and cranking. Was of course a smokey mess for about 15 minutes but eventually got it settled down. Engine internals sound actually ok. This engine has a little blow by but it is not as bad by a good margin. I think I can get some years out of it if I can fix other problems.

If anyone can comment on any of these issues I have left to tackle I would appreciate it!

-The engine of course does not idle right as the carb was sitting for likely a very long time. Got it to start - it will idle at about 400rpm with the choke closed, but if I open the choke with my finger it will die. Also the choke opener does not work. Furthermore there seems to be a misfire or something at 1000-2000rpm but it runs smoother at 3000 rpm. Also the throttle response is extremely delayed, maybe a second after I press the throttle the rpms rise. (all of these tests out of gear) I have a feeling, though I am not sure, that these problems are likely due to the mess of vac lines and old equipment around the carb. My more experienced assistant for this project recommended I try to follow the tutorial you guys have posted to just remove all of the vac lines going to the black box and cruise control and A/C and just leave a few because most of those components are likely broken anyway. It looks like there was a good tutorial started here: http://www.3geez.com/forum/how/11067-running-keihin-2bbl-carburetor-without-emissions-electronic-contorls.html

But most of the pictures are gone. Would you recommend I try this route? If so does anyone have an archive of those pictures?

-There is one very long bolt (5 inches or so?) which is threaded on the very end which goes into the back transmission mount through both the engine and transmission housings. I can not seem to install this bolt because there is some kind of oil cooler device or something on the engine which blocks me from starting out the bolt (the head hits the lip) If anyone has had this issue before do you know of any solution? I don't remember how the heck I got the bolt off.

-There is a small oil leak which looks like it is coming from the oil pan gasket right above the oil drain plug. I have tightened all of the bolts there to be sure. It looks like about one drop every 20 seconds or something. Is there any kind of additive which would help with this issue or is the only feasible method to replace the gasket?

Overall I am really happy that it started again after all of these years in the junkyard. Hopefully I can still fix these issues!

Thanks as usual!

Some patience might be in order. A car left sitting will have all kinds of little issues. As you drive it, a lot of them will work themselves out. Check the timing and make sure you don't have any vacuum leaks. Beyond that, it's a good idea to sit down with the Honda manual and educate yourself on the operation of the carb. As you learn, you can figure things out a little better.

The bolt sounds like a starter bolt to me. It requires some jiggling, but should go in okay.

The torque spec for the pan gasket is 10 ft-lbs (slightly more than wrist tight). If you exceeded that substantially, then you should probably replace it.

[Dr_Snooz]

Oh and that pipe on the exhaust manifold I have not been able to get loose. I unbolt the opposite end to remove the manifold.