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OldSchoolSwap
01-27-2003, 07:53 AM
Some of this might sound a bit to technical for some of you but you'll get some idea of what its all about.


By: Dennis Adams


Detonation

Detonation or "knocking" arises from the production of an explosion wave in the combustion chamber. This is due to rapid ignition and combustion. A portion of the unburnt air/fuel mixture becomes compressed prematurely, which in turn rapidly increases in temperature until it ignites uncontrollably and almost instantaneously. The shock wave produced has a characteristic of a metallic sound and can vary in magnitude. It can range from a mild form, occurring only at relatively low speed and wide throttle positions (typically known as "pining") to such violent effects that the engine is no longer running in a controlled manner and power output dies.

Detailed view of detonation

Now that we know the definition of detonation we need to comprehend that if the temperature of an air/fuel mixture is raised to high, the mixture will eventually explode spontaneously. This is known as spontaneous ignition temperature. But, before this explosion there is an interval called ignition time-lag. If the piston approaching tdc of the combustion stroke takes longer than this period before the spark plug ignites there will be a premature explosion. The longer the time-lag the less chance of spontaneous there is of spontaneous ignition. If the air/fuel mixture is fired at the correct "timed" point and a good flame is achieved power loss through detonation is still possible. The burnt mixture behind the flame front will be at a high temperature and pressure, which will cause compression of the unburnt gas ahead of the spontaneous ignition point. The flame front must move right through the unburnt charge before the end of the ignition time-lag period if not this can lead to overheating and excessive mechanical stressing.

Fuel choice and detonation

With any fuel the brake thermal efficiency 1 will decrease if the compression ratio is increased. A properly chosen fuel can help diminish detonation. The advances in modern day fuels have extended their ignition time-lag periods and have decreased the spontaneous ignition temperatures, which allows for the use of a higher compression ratio (safely up to 11:1) to be used in the combustion process under complete control. There are also special fuels made especially for racing applications that allow compression ratios so high that the limit is actually dependent upon mechanical aspects of the cylinder head design.

Summary

The benefit of increasing compression ratio is to increase the torque output of an engine. The harm in raising the compression ratio is that cylinder pressures increases in a linear fashion as compression ratio is increased. An 8:1 compression ratio yields compression pressures of about 275 psi, where 15:1 yields compression pressure of about 575 psi. At the time of ignition the pressures will rise 3 or 4 times the compression pressure. Also, when an engine has been modified where even a slight increase in torque is achieved it is important that detonation is not allowed. The noise of detonation of a high-compression ratio engine using the correct grade of fuel is much harder to detect than that of an engine with a much lower compression ratio burning lower octane fuels. 1 Thermal Efficiency -Thermal efficiency is the measure of the efficiency and completeness of combustion of the fuel, or, more specifically, the ratio of the output or work done by the working substance in the cylinder in a given time to the input or heat energy of the fuel supplied during the same time.

johndej
01-27-2003, 06:36 PM
hey, thanks for putting that up here. my uncle has an RX-7 parts car that died of that, just one. would something like that kill our cars that fast? or is it just that a rotary engine is just more fragile (well, i know they are, but i don't know how much so)

OldSchoolSwap
01-27-2003, 09:26 PM
Once major mods start taking place, this is one of the main problems every racer will always encounter.

This is why we must all learn from other's mistakes and try to learn as much as possible in an attempt to tune our motors as efficient as possible.

pistons and rotaries will face the same issue.

Sean
01-27-2003, 09:53 PM
thats why i pushed the GM ecms so hard. they have detonation sensors as well as timing retards etc to both catch and prevent it as well as help keep the engine from getting damaged. the stock accord ecms dont have knock sensors so its a bit tough. and with a turbo youd better have a knock sensor or youll quickly be buyign parts.

Site
01-28-2003, 07:17 AM
I have a question that is possibly related to this:
Two months after I converted to the Weber DCOEs, I replaced my spark plugs. The plugs were covered with a yellow glaze - a sign of mild detonation (according to my Haynes manual). Up to this point, I had been running a stock exhaust setup. When I changed the plugs, I also installed exhaust headers and 2.5" exhaust piping. It's been a month now since I did all this. I took a plug out to examine it and it looks fine.

My question is this: is it likely that I was experiencing detonation because I increased the air/fuel intake of the engine, but not the exhaust?

Correct me if I am wrong, my conclusion is that the stock exhaust flow was "holding back" the exhaust gasses, causing the engine to become really hot and pre-ignite the air/fuel mixture (my water temp gauge has been disconnected since the DCOE conversion - I can't figure out where to reconnect it, DOH). So, when I opened up the exhaust flow by adding headers and piping, the detonation went away.

OldSchoolSwap
01-28-2003, 09:41 AM
You conclusion makes some sence. However have you touched your timing by any increments? What do you have it set to? And or fuel octane.

Sean
01-28-2003, 10:34 AM
the EGT's could have been really high due to the restritive exhuast pipping cuasing a spike in combustion pressures. its very likely. typically headers will help cool and engine down by removng the large heatsink that is the exhaust manifold from the exhuast port.

Site
01-28-2003, 10:51 AM
OldSchool wrote: "have you touched your timing by any increments? What do you have it set to? And or fuel octane."
-I run 93 octane (did before, too) and the timing is slightly advanced. I don't know by how many degrees. I adjusted it while smoothing out the idle after installing the DCOEs. A normal DCOE conversion involves advancing the timing some.

SeanStick wrote: "the EGT's could have been really high due to the restritive exhuast pipping cuasing a spike in combustion pressures. its very likely. typically headers will help cool and engine down by removng the large heatsink that is the exhaust manifold from the exhuast port."
-That's what I said in tech-speak, right? :lol

OldSchoolSwap
01-28-2003, 12:36 PM
Well, if the problem persists and your setup requires advancing timing, then get a step colder plugs and that should do it.

The fuel side sounds ok.

Other than that, i think that the headers alone could've cured the problem. as mentioned by your "tech speach" ;)

Sean
01-28-2003, 01:14 PM
the other factor to look at is the way in which the headers help scevenge burnt exhuast gasses from the engine. if there was alot of exhuast gas left in the cylinder fromt eh carbs flowing in so much air then its entirely possiale that the headers helped by scavenging the hot gases lowering the possiabilty by reducing latent cumbustion heat. this will always reduce detonation.the cooler they cylinder is prior to the compersion storke the less likely detonation is.

OldSchoolSwap
01-28-2003, 03:39 PM
Yes indeed! Heat is the worst enemy of them all............. not Nitrous, turbo nor superchargers ;)
If you can dicipate heat fast, you can run anything you want!

Why do you think, high levels of boost and nitrous recommend colder plugs? Ding! Ding! Ding! Bingo! Cooler motor under alot of stress! :)

A20A1
01-28-2003, 03:50 PM
You're talking about the EGR pipe right... i remember reading the EGR cools the engine temp.