Is this ignition timing too dangerous ?

[AC439]

Guys, I'm still troubleshooting the engine vibration issue (at a certain rpm under load). I disabled the EGR (unplug the vacuum from EGR and plug the hose) for a quick test and made no difference. So I went to test my next theory - "Possible messed up ignition timing"

I know my timing is definitely out of factory spec and more advanced then it is supposed to be. The mechanical advance is original and worn out. I did the lazy man (or poor man) dizzy rebuild already but noticed the two pins (weights pulled by the springs) sort of worn out and loose. I did asked this before about an Ebay unit and sort of pending getting it but now I think I should get it.

So I retarded the base timing by rotating the dizzy clockwise a little. The vibration decreased and became less noticeable. But I wanted to know how off my base timing is so I pulled out the good old timing gun. With engine at operating temp, rpm about 750 and both vacuum hoses connected, I could not see the timing mark on the flywheel. So I retarded the timing more (clockwise rotation) until I hit the dead stop. I finally see the edge of the timing mark plate in the little window and the three close marks (the middle is 15 BTDC). But it is still way advanced from the pointer. I looked at the graphic of the flywheel and estimate my timing is probably close to 24-25 BTDC !

I think I am going to order the dizzy from Ebay but with this much advance timing, is it safe to keep driving with this much advanced timing ? (Yeah, I know I have been driving this for a while but don't want to do more harm to it)

- AC

[Dr_Snooz]

I'll just say that pinging is hard too hear in these cars...

[AC439]

I have been thinking the vibration is actually ping. That's why I start going down the path of ignition timing. I further retarded the timing and today the car has even less vibration. I think I am going to order that dizzy and get it replaced and set the timing to spec.

[g.frost]

Is there any chance your timing belt is off a notch or 2?

[AC439]

I am sure timing belt is fine. When I changed the head gasket few years ago, I worked with a mechanic friend and we were making sure the belt was put back on correctly. Car back then ran fine after head gasket change.

[Oldblueaccord]

I am sure timing belt is fine. When I changed the head gasket few years ago, I worked with a mechanic friend and we were making sure the belt was put back on correctly. Car back then ran fine after head gasket change.


Besides what been said you can drive around in a parking garage or tunnel and hear a car pinging better.

I think you should be checking the timing with BOTH hoses plugged car fully warmed up and idle set to factory.

[AC439]

I will verify that too with car warmed up and at idle. I think with both hoses removed and plugged, the timing should be around 4 BTDC. With both hoses connected, timing should be at the mark which is 15 +- 2 degrees.

[Dr_Snooz]

Besides what been said you can drive around in a parking garage or tunnel and hear a car pinging better.

I think you should be checking the timing with BOTH hoses plugged car fully warmed up and idle set to factory.

x2. That's how I figured out that mine was pinging.

[AC439]

[EDIT: Found my old thread about timing confusion here - https://www.3geez.com/forum/3geez-accords/67804-ignition-timing-confusion.html, I think the below info is correct]]

I would like to clarify real quick about timing with hoses connected and disconnected cause the FSM is kind of confusing. I remember I asked this before and general consent here is -

FI Accord:
Engine idle, engine warmed up, hoses disconnected and all vacuum connections plugged - about 4 BTDC

Engine idle, engine warmed up, hoses connected to vacuum advance - 15 BTDC (pointer should align to the center long timing mark on flywheel)

Correct ?

[Dr_Snooz]

The short answer is yes; that's correct. I think the 15 degree number varies depending on what part of the world you're in, your altitude, your local smog laws, whether you have a carb, etc. You're supposed to refer to your underhood label for the actual figure, but yes, as a general rule, 15 degrees with the vacuum lines connected.

The real question is: what mark on the flywheel is 4 degrees? The manual doesn't say and I have only educated guesses from looking at it. I THINK it was the green dot on my old AT drive plate. My MT flywheel came with no marks, so I copied them from the old drive plate. I hope I was right.

[Oldblueaccord]

yeah I agree its 4 and 15. But like snooze said the 4 isnt marked. The 15 is the red.

Reason I say disconnect the advance on any car when your suspecting timing problems Is just like you said your advance is suspect to start with.

the carb cars list 24 degrees.

My opinion on to much advance is these motors are stout there shouldnt much short term problems only long term bearing and pistion wear. If it was say my 6.4L hemi there is cause for concern theyll bust the ring lands easy.

Quick fix is run 20% E85 to 87 and call it good it will cover the pinging and youll come out ahead in power and mileage.

[Oldblueaccord]

https://imageshack.com/a/img17/9770/z0t6.jpg

[AC439]

Yeah I saw this pic too. Mine (AT) I think has T for TDC and also the three marks being center one is longest and labeled 15. My label under the hood is long gone.

Currently, I have the carb vacuum advance on the FI dizzy (long story short - Rockauto issue, they listed as fit, just like the front engine mount). And I have manually verified the vacuum advance has no leak and operational using a vacuum pump.

I do remember the shaft on the vacuum adv can be rotated for the length so I can still try to do some adjustment and see if I can get the base timing right. Maybe I should lengthen it so it will retard it a little further hopefully I can get the timing back within or at least close to spec.....

[Dr_Snooz]

Do you suppose that advance pot is causing your problem? It could be over-advancing or who knows what.

[AC439]

Yeah, this is what I'm trying to figure it out. But I remember I had also messed with rotating the shaft (shortening it) on the vacuum advance so I could have caused the problem. At that time, I did not use a timing light (bad me).

I rotated the shaft one turn to extend it and put it back (without adjusting the dizzy body), car vibrates even less. Must less noticeable while engine cold, little more noticeable when warmed up. Next step is to disconnect hoses and plugs them all and check base timing....

[Dr_Snooz]

Does a new Richporter dizzie sound real good right now?

[AC439]

New dizzy ordered. Will be here a few days....

[AC439]

New dizzy arrived and installed. Pics are comparison between the original (left) and the ebay unit (right).

I tested the vacuum advance on the new unit before installation. However, the new unit's timing is way off even within the adjustable range. The 15+-2 mark cannot be seen with vacuum attached. I then disconnected vacuum and plugged them, I was able to see the 15+-2 mark but I had to rotate the dizzy all the way clockwise until it hit the stop. The base timing (with vacuum disconnected and plugged) is estimated to be around 10 to 11 BTDC. I left it this way and reconnected vacuum hoses and went for a driving test.

Road test seems ok. There is still little vibration around 2000 rpm but it is less now. The vacuum advance on the new unit is metal and it is not flushed to the body of the dizzy. I think I can fiddle around it so as to make the ignitor plate (the plate that the vacuum advance moves) further retard to base timing around 4 BTDC.

Will update when I can get to it.....

[Dr_Snooz]

Are you sure you didn't jump a timing belt tooth?

[AC439]

Yes, I'm perfectly sure. When I did the head gasket, I marked the timing belt against the cam gear. Then I slides it off. When I reinstalled, I matched the marks and slides back on the belt. At that time, the car ran fine just like before.

With the eBay dizzy, I'm not surprised if its not calibrate. With that said, the old dizzy timing was off but not that much off compared to the eBay dizzy so I am pretty certain there is not one teeth off the belt.

But, like I said, I will investigate more on that to see how much tweaking I would need to bring it in spec.

p.s. My other theory is the new dizzy might have been calibrated to be able to adjust to 15 BTDC with vacuum advance DISABLED/PLUGGED (even Haynes manual said this way). This has been the most confusing part for our ignition timing and have been largely discusses here.

[AC439]

Well, worked on car this morning.... As you can see in the first pic, there is a gap between vacuum adv and body of dizzy. I removed the vacuum advance and refitted it to reduce the gap. I also rotate the shaft on the vacuum advance one turn to extend it. These two retarded the ignitor plate further so I can see my timing mark (warmed up, 750 rpm, vacuum connected) but it is still a bit advance. I estimated to be around 20 BTDC at this time.

Road test ok, car runs with slight vibration (2000 rpm) still but kind of feeling a little sluggish now. I believe I have been running way advance timing for a while and now its closer to normal.

2nd pic is after the adjustment to reduce the gap. Third pic is the home position of the ignitor plate.

[Dr_Snooz]

Very interesting...

[AC439]

So I have just done more work. First, I manually rotated the crank to make the sure the UP mark on cam is pointing up and the two timing marks aligned with the valve cover surface as in page 6-16. I then threw a light into the ignition timing windows to verify it is indeed at the TDC mark. This ruled out the possibility of timing belt off a teeth.

I recall when I checked the head bolts before, the center two bolts were a little loose so I did tighten them. My theory is I could have over-tightened them (I didn't have a torque wrench then) and possibly wrap the head a little (being the middle tighten down too much). I have since bought a torque wrench and torqued them accordingly to the manual but the vibration still there. So I did something a little risky and torqued the outer bolts a little harder leaving the middle two untouched. I was hoping this will "straighten" out the head if my theory was right. I also tightened the 10 bolts holding the cam, some were able to be tightened a little more than the other.

Road test of 10 mins shows it indeed vibrates less. There is still some but a lot less pronounce.

My next thing is to take apart the old dizzy and see if I could repair the two weight pins with sleeves so it will rotate freely and better. The flea bay dizzy seems ok for now but if I can totally restore the OEM unit, I rather use the original. At least car now is more drive-able. I really hate that vibration at 2k rpm since this is where the engine runs most of the time.

[Dr_Snooz]

DBMaster had the same problem with the advance weights and fixed it somehow. I don't recall whether he posted anything about it though. Might be worth a search if you need ideas.

[AC439]

I saw his posting about this as well but I might have to look around here in Lowes or HD (doubt if they have anything like that or I have to go to hobby shops like those selling remote control cars or plane etc. I also have an idea of getting one of those extendable/retrackable radio antenna and the metal tubes might have a section that fits.

p.s. I just teared apart the original dizzy and only able to get to the point to get the springs off. The shaft won't come off and cannot get the advance weight off. They are both loose but seems like the bushings for the weights are still intact. I'm not sure if I want to mess around with that....

I also pulled vacuum on the VC (incorrect fit, bought from rockauto for carb) and noticed the movement of this VC seems less than the new metal VC from the flea bay unit with same amount of vacuum applied....

[AC439]

Worked more on car on a different issue (loosen the rack guide screw on the relatively new steering rack to ease steering effort. Yup I found the reman rack was way too tight).

After road test, the engine is warmed up so I get the timing light out again. I am able to get very close to 4 BTDC with vacuum hoses disconnect and plugged. However, once I reconnect the vacuum hoses back to the VC, the timing mark is way advanced. I was only able to see the edge of the flywheel plate with the 15 +- BTDC, meaning it is advanced to a point that I cannot see the marks on the little opening. As I suspected, the new metal type vacuum advance gived too much travel when vacuum is applied therefore over advancing the timing. The metal vacuum advance is not made to Honda spec.

Anyway, I think I am gonna stop for a while here. Maybe the engine is too old (322k miles) I don't know. Maybe one day I can do a swap or whatever. I think with our cars this age, maintenance is a lot more heavy duty vs things like oil change, brake pad change/fluid flush etc. Maybe I have to live with the problems......

[Donnyten]

let me know how it runs man, I hope I dont have the same issue since we have the same distributor

[AC439]

My issue is not really with the distributor. I have a mystery vibration which happens at a certain RPM (around 2k). Once the it rev pass 2k, engine is ok. I have ruled out many possibility but I have also done everything I can within my own ability in my own home. I think everything beyond that would need a shop or pulling the head out again or checking valve seal etc. One last thing I might do is to re-measure the valve clearance. Other than that, it leaves me little options:-

1) Live with it,
2) Engine swap (expensive, no experience and no tools), or
3) Pass it on to a member who has time, skills or money for it.

[Dr_Snooz]

https://www.3geez.com/forum/attachments/3geez-accords/8963d1532649666-ignition-timing-too-dangerous-dsc04587-jpg

Is that little hole in the end of the advance pot an adjustment screw perchance?

[AC439]

Nope. The little hole is sealed with some glue. I didn't mess with it, only rotate the shaft to extend it then verified with a vacuum pump afterwards to make sure I didn't screw up.

[Donnyten]

Unfortunately i'm having the same problem with this distributor. Can't get the distributor timed to the red mark, I took your lead and refitted the metal piece so that it sits spaceless in the distributor housing, now it times to the little mark beneath the red line, i'm assuming 20 degrees BTDC?

Were you ever able to get this fixed?

[AC439]

I think if you get it to align to the little pointer below the red mark, you are at 17 BTDC. You should be ok. Mine is even more far off than yours. Anyway, my engine problem, now I believe, is with the head. I need to take it out and surface it. I suspect I have a head gasket leak between cylinders. Will do compression test to figure it out.

[Donnyten]

Did you initially have this timing issue with the stock distributor? Im thinking of getting a stock used one and rebuilding if possible. My timings slightly below the mark beneath the red. I basically have the distributor advanced as far is it will go

[AC439]

I did not have this problem with the original dizzy. I think the new one is not built to spec.

[Dr_Snooz]

I did not have this problem with the original dizzy. I think the new one is not built to spec.

That's a bummer. I had high hopes for those. Thanks for letting us know though.


Did you initially have this timing issue with the stock distributor? Im thinking of getting a stock used one and rebuilding if possible. My timings slightly below the mark beneath the red. I basically have the distributor advanced as far is it will go

https://www.3geez.com/forum/3geez-accords/64421-distributor-overhaul.html?highlight=distributor+rebuild
https://www.3geez.com/forum/3geez-accords/66468-lazy-mans-distributor-overhaul-tec-distributor.html?highlight=distributor+rebuild

[Dr_Snooz]

Oh. I've been meaning to update this thread and let everyone know that if you run a copper line from the engine to a mechanical oil pressure gauge in the cabin, it makes pinging MUCH easier to hear. It will transmit all kinds of engine noise.

[AC439]

That's a good tip for diagnose engine noise.

I'm beginning to think I'm in denial of head gasket issue. I am going to get a compression gauge and check the cylinders.

I am starting to think I have gasket leak in between adjacent cylinders. I wonder if Autozone will have compression gauge rental service. I don't want to buy something I will only use once or twice.

[Donnyten]

Too bad im using nylon. Damn copper line kept breaking. Seems super fragile. Settled with rubber hose over the nylon line into cabin.

If im gonna get this kinda timing with aftermarket unit looks like this vehicle is screwed unless there are better after market alternatives. I feel like the car can def run better if shit was igniting at proper times

[Donnyten]

Thanks

[Donnyten]

Thank you ac439. Your suspicion of metal vacuum advance was dead on. I got a used plastic vacuum advance from another distributor and replaced it with the metal one and now i can properly adjust timing

[AC439]

Yeah, that's what I thought about mine. But my plastic vacuum advance is for carb car. Long story short, got this VC from rockauto and found the connection ports facing the wrong direction. Ofc, rockauto says fit so I bought it. But they always point fingers at customers for not checking fitment. Well, their site says fit but they insist its my fault. Anyway... same issue for front engine mount (they will sell you a carb mount for FI car, their web still says fit).

Again, I think the issue very well be head gasket cause I rule out bunch of stuffs. I am waiting for weather to cool down so I will pull the head out and redo it.

[Oldblueaccord]

Good work getting it straightened out guys!