Warm restart issue

[Dr_Snooz]

I'm experiencing a warm restart issue. It's not the classic main relay issue where the car won't start when the cabin gets warm. This one happens when the engine is warm. If I try to restart the car within 20 minutes or so of turning it off, it turns over, but won't fire. If I wait, it starts again no problem. My main relay is not a year old at this point, so I don't think it's that. I did notice that the car smelled like fresh gas when it acted up the other night. That has me thinking about injectors. Two of my injectors are original parts. Two others are junkyard replacements. My suspicion is that they are leaking fuel into the combustion chamber after I turn the car off. Wait long enough and the fuel drips into the crankcase and the car starts again. Having said that, the car absolutely does not fire at all when this is happening. It just spins. If there were a lot of gas in the chamber, I'd expect it to cough and sputter some.

I haven't had a chance to do any kind of diagnosis. Just wondering if anyone has any ideas.

[conozo]

Loose plug wire to coil.

That's a complete guess.

[Shane86]

Tw switch

[Dr_Snooz]

Tw switch

Dang. That didn't even occur to me. Good catch.

It's a funny thing about human nature that after a 12 hour workday, you'd rather sit on your butt and watch TV than chase an intermittent car issue while being devoured by mosquitoes. Who knew? Anyway, the car left me sit for over an hour at a gas station last night. I had to call my neighbor to come pick me up. How embarrassing. Tonight I forced myself to go out and test it while it was still warm. The spark was almost not visible and I found the coil to be out of spec with values that kept moving around. This is an 8 year old coil with 25k miles on it. Not very impressive. Wish I had noted down where I got it from. Anyway, I have a replacement coming that I'll install tomorrow night and we'll see what happens.

[InAccordance]

You can have my old one when I'm done with my conversion =D

[Oldblueaccord]

Dang. That didn't even occur to me. Good catch.

It's a funny thing about human nature that after a 12 hour workday, you'd rather sit on your butt and watch TV than chase an intermittent car issue while being devoured by mosquitoes. Who knew? Anyway, the car left me sit for over an hour at a gas station last night. I had to call my neighbor to come pick me up. How embarrassing. Tonight I forced myself to go out and test it while it was still warm. The spark was almost not visible and I found the coil to be out of spec with values that kept moving around. This is an 8 year old coil with 25k miles on it. Not very impressive. Wish I had noted down where I got it from. Anyway, I have a replacement coming that I'll install tomorrow night and we'll see what happens.

I just took another job that 8 hours shifts and my wifes already noticed I have done more around the house in 3 weeks than in the last 6 months.

Ill go with TW sensor. There is some kinda paper clip trick that will jump it out. You can search for that.

Check the specs of the new coil Im gonna guess there not to the book but for the Prelude.

[Dr_Snooz]

Definitely not the coil. So $50 bucks for nothing. I ordered new injectors today. I really think they're leaking down. There's no real way to test that, so I'm considering it a maintenance item.

Wouldn't the TW sensor flash a CEL? I guess when your ECU is 30 years old, there's all kinds of stuff it might not be doing anymore. I've already thrown 2 out for being messed up. It's easy enough to test, so I'll put that on the list.

[Oldblueaccord]

Definitely not the coil. So $50 bucks for nothing. I ordered new injectors today. I really think they're leaking down. There's no real way to test that, so I'm considering it a maintenance item.

Wouldn't the TW sensor flash a CEL? I guess when your ECU is 30 years old, there's all kinds of stuff it might not be doing anymore. I've already thrown 2 out for being messed up. It's easy enough to test, so I'll put that on the list.

Im guessing unless it read 0 it wont code out.

Reading warmer than it should will make the car way rich. When my t stat stuck all those years ago my AFR was 10:1 just idling and pegged down at 9 driving a short distance at part throttle.

Starting at full throttle may clear out excessive fuel on our cars. my new OBD2 cars wont start if you full throttle them,no fuel. I use it to prime the oil pump of oil changes a few seconds before firing off.

[Shane86]

Definitely not the coil. So $50 bucks for nothing. I ordered new injectors today. I really think they're leaking down. There's no real way to test that, so I'm considering it a maintenance item.

Wouldn't the TW sensor flash a CEL? I guess when your ECU is 30 years old, there's all kinds of stuff it might not be doing anymore. I've already thrown 2 out for being messed up. It's easy enough to test, so I'll put that on the list.

First when my TW switch went out it never threw a code. i threw all kinds of money at it trying to fix it. Then about a month later I noticed the plastic was cracked and I decided to go ahead and replace it. But the car was having all the kinds of symptoms as you described

[conozo]

https://www.3geez.com/forum/efi-tech/108726-tw-sensor-clarification.html

Here is a great thread on the TW sensor. I found that Rock Auto has one but list it as DX,LX,carb one. Is there really a difference?

[Dr_Snooz]

I tested the sensor and couldn't really get a good connection, so I replaced it. Problem remains. I got my injectors in the mail, so those are next up. Stay tuned for more fun!

[Dr_Snooz]

I might be wrong. It started right up twice today. My first warm start with the new sensor failed, but maybe it's been driven enough now to re-write the map. I need to drive it some more.

[Dr_Snooz]

Okay, no, definitely NOT the TW sensor and DEFINITELY the injectors. I got a couple sputtery restarts after replacing the TW sensor, but the problem returned full force after that, leaving me sitting in Whole Foods' parking lot with my hood up for a half hour. I got it home and pulled the injectors, which were dribbling gas even as I removed them. I've only restarted twice since then, but the problem appears to have been eliminated.

It's funny how you come to know your car. When it all started, I smelled the gas and said, "I'll bet it's those injectors." I tried restarting with the gas pedal pressed to the floor, which seemed to help, so that kind of confirmed it. I'm always careful to do as much testing and troubleshooting before I start spending, so I did a couple other things first, but those injectors kept coming to mind throughout.

All that to say, keep turning those wrenches!!!

[Dr_Snooz]

As long as I'm on the topic of fuel system service, WTF is with Honda's screwball fuel filter banjo bolt? It aims itself at the fuel line so you can't get a wrench on it. Real nice. It's some stupid two-sided bolt that you have to use an open end wrench on (not a socket like you'd like to use). Has anyone replaced that nonsense with a proper hex-head banjo bolt? That's on my list of stuff to re-engineer now.

[InAccordance]

Go get you some red top DSM injectors, can squeeze a bit more flow out of them. From what I remember it isn't much but is a little more than our stock ones.
I also found old GM ones that worked too. Those were fun.

[Shane86]

As long as I'm on the topic of fuel system service, WTF is with Honda's screwball fuel filter banjo bolt? It aims itself at the fuel line so you can't get a wrench on it. Real nice. It's some stupid two-sided bolt that you have to use an open end wrench on (not a socket like you'd like to use). Has anyone replaced that nonsense with a proper hex-head banjo bolt? That's on my list of stuff to re-engineer now.

You can replace it with this Honda fuel pressure gauge.

9563



https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F11 2367718711

[Dr_Snooz]

I'm WRONG! Problem persists. Doh.

The car is running SOOOOOOO much better with the new injectors though. OMG. My notchy throttle response is gone. Idle is smoother; running is smoother; power is increased; probably MPG too. I had no idea they were so bad.

I figured out how to start it though. I just put my foot to the floor and keep cranking. Works great. Of course, you know how that goes. Twenty years from now I'll still be starting it that way and still saying, "I really need to fix that." LOL

Does anyone have a good way to test spark when you're alone?

[Dr_Snooz]

You can replace it with this Honda fuel pressure gauge.

9563



https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F11 2367718711


Thanks!!

[Oldblueaccord]

I'm WRONG! Problem persists. Doh.

The car is running SOOOOOOO much better with the new injectors though. OMG. My notchy throttle response is gone. Idle is smoother; running is smoother; power is increased; probably MPG too. I had no idea they were so bad.

I figured out how to start it though. I just put my foot to the floor and keep cranking. Works great. Of course, you know how that goes. Twenty years from now I'll still be starting it that way and still saying, "I really need to fix that." LOL

Does anyone have a good way to test spark when you're alone?

I use one of those AC tic tracers. Death sticks as there called in my business. I got a fluke one that picks up the pulse thru the wire. or use a timing light.

http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/fluke/electrical-testers/non-contact-voltage-detectors/voltalert-ac-non-contact-votage-tester-2ac901000v.htm?ref=gbase&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjbTvqLH54QIVCJ6fCh3BJwFAEAQYASAB EgL-vPD_BwE


the foot to the floor tells me its flooding some how.

[carotman]

Which sensor did you replace, the 2 prongs one or the single prong?

[Dr_Snooz]

Which sensor did you replace, the 2 prongs one or the single prong?

It was the 2 prong closest to the head.

The car wouldn't start again Thursday night, and I actually had a chance to do some proper diagnosis. Pressing the pedal to the floor did nothing this time. I'm definitely getting fuel, because I can smell it. And I'm definitely getting fire. Sort of... The spark is underwhelming, coming in a 22k volts when it should be closer to 30k if I'm understanding things properly. My coil is new, so I doubt it's that. Nor do I think it's the dizzie because I tested before it too and got the same meager 22k volts. So I'm thinking whatever is wrong is happening before the dizzie. I've noticed that when this happens, the starter doesn't run as strong, like the battery is tired. I've also had a few starts where the entire electrical system is dead when I turn the key. No dash lights, no start, no nothing. If I turn off the key, jiggle it and try again, it starts normally. Thus, I have a new ignition switch coming.

I need to get snuggly with the wiring diagrams today to see what's happening before the coil. I think that fuel pressure gauge above is a good idea too, so I'll order that, just to be sure of what the fuel is doing.

This is the weirdest thing. The car will crank, but not fire. It won't even try to fire. It doesn't cough, sputter, choke or anything. It just spins.

All thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.

[InAccordance]

Take the ignition switch out, pull the white part off, take some sandpaper and clean up the contacts on the black part side. Instant new ignition switch. Just be careful not to let the bits fall out of the white part of the switch (been there done that).
I've had it happen twice where one of the contacts gets a sort of like burnt spot on it and was preventing contact.

[Oldblueaccord]

It was the 2 prong closest to the head.

The car wouldn't start again Thursday night, and I actually had a chance to do some proper diagnosis. Pressing the pedal to the floor did nothing this time. I'm definitely getting fuel, because I can smell it. And I'm definitely getting fire. Sort of... The spark is underwhelming, coming in a 22k volts when it should be closer to 30k if I'm understanding things properly. My coil is new, so I doubt it's that. Nor do I think it's the dizzie because I tested before it too and got the same meager 22k volts. So I'm thinking whatever is wrong is happening before the dizzie. I've noticed that when this happens, the starter doesn't run as strong, like the battery is tired. I've also had a few starts where the entire electrical system is dead when I turn the key. No dash lights, no start, no nothing. If I turn off the key, jiggle it and try again, it starts normally. Thus, I have a new ignition switch coming.

I need to get snuggly with the wiring diagrams today to see what's happening before the coil. I think that fuel pressure gauge above is a good idea too, so I'll order that, just to be sure of what the fuel is doing.

This is the weirdest thing. The car will crank, but not fire. It won't even try to fire. It doesn't cough, sputter, choke or anything. It just spins.

All thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.


if you get low like under 12 volts the car will crank but not fire. I got mine to fire off at 11.5 volts but just as I let the key off it fired. Thats 11.5volts at the battery at rest,cranking voltage could fall to 9 volts.

Long shot I doubt thats your problem.

[charliekuney]

How reluctant is PGM-FI on a correct battery charge? I had a cheap Les Schwab battery in my Lexus and the .2-.3 volts lower it produced versus an OEM Lexus battery caused the car to hesitate (electronic throttle) and go into limp mode.

[Dr_Snooz]

Hey Charlie. Welcome back!

[Shane86]

It was the 2 prong closest to the head.

The car wouldn't start again Thursday night, and I actually had a chance to do some proper diagnosis. Pressing the pedal to the floor did nothing this time. I'm definitely getting fuel, because I can smell it. And I'm definitely getting fire. Sort of... The spark is underwhelming, coming in a 22k volts when it should be closer to 30k if I'm understanding things properly. My coil is new, so I doubt it's that. Nor do I think it's the dizzie because I tested before it too and got the same meager 22k volts. So I'm thinking whatever is wrong is happening before the dizzie. I've noticed that when this happens, the starter doesn't run as strong, like the battery is tired. I've also had a few starts where the entire electrical system is dead when I turn the key. No dash lights, no start, no nothing. If I turn off the key, jiggle it and try again, it starts normally. Thus, I have a new ignition switch coming.

I need to get snuggly with the wiring diagrams today to see what's happening before the coil. I think that fuel pressure gauge above is a good idea too, so I'll order that, just to be sure of what the fuel is doing.

This is the weirdest thing. The car will crank, but not fire. It won't even try to fire. It doesn't cough, sputter, choke or anything. It just spins.

All thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.

I may be wrong but I believe on 88-89 the TW switch is the green plug the one that's not closest to the Head. On 86-87 the green plug is closest to the Head

[Dr_Snooz]

if you get low like under 12 volts the car will crank but not fire. I got mine to fire off at 11.5 volts but just as I let the key off it fired. Thats 11.5volts at the battery at rest,cranking voltage could fall to 9 volts.

Long shot I doubt thats your problem.

I can test it, right? I have the tool here. I'm also thinking a Big 3 upgrade wouldn't be a bad idea. Or cleaning up my existing ground connections at least. They aren't dirty, but after 30 years on those tiny wires, who knows?

New ignition switch arrived today. Not sure when I'll get it swapped.

[JDMhotboi]

I’ve been having this issue too.

[Oldblueaccord]

I can test it, right? I have the tool here. I'm also thinking a Big 3 upgrade wouldn't be a bad idea. Or cleaning up my existing ground connections at least. They aren't dirty, but after 30 years on those tiny wires, who knows?

New ignition switch arrived today. Not sure when I'll get it swapped.

yeah with a meter even at the battery will show you voltage drop etc.

Double check what Shane said you changed out the correct TW sensor.

EDIT looking at Niles post in the link above its the green connector sensor.

On the quick I would unhook it and see if you get code 6. I think the no start trick is to jump the connector with a paper clip of unknown length and origin to get the resistance close enough for the ECU call for the correct fuel.

[Dr_Snooz]

I don't know. I replaced the sensor the manual identified as the TW sensor. When I disconnected it, the engine immediately died. The other is a thermoswitch, for the fans I assume. I'm pretty confident that I got the right one, but who knows?

Work is killing me with the overtime right now. It's a good problem to have, so I'm not complaining. Just tired. I bought the big battery tester from Harbor Freight and it should tell me a lot. I'll test it when I can get a chance. Hopefully tomorrow, but we'll see.

Thank you everyone for the help.

[Shane86]

When you unplug the TW switch you should automatically get a code 6

[Dr_Snooz]

I bought the eBay fuel gauge (thanks Shane!) and put it on today: 9 psi at idle. I ran it around the block and got it up to 7 psi.

OMG.

I can hardly believe that's right. Would the car even run if it were that low?

[Shane86]

I bought the eBay fuel gauge (thanks Shane!) and put it on today: 9 psi at idle. I ran it around the block and got it up to 7 psi.

OMG.

I can hardly believe that's right. Would the car even run if it were that low?

Wow stock pressure should be around 34 psi. When's the last time you replace the fuel pump or the pressure regulator

[Shane86]

Here's another little item that allows you to modify your fuel pressure regulator to where you can adjust your fuel pressure. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F11 3317998206


And here's the how to. https://www.3geez.com/forum/how/63454-how-install-adjustable-fuel-pressure-regulator.html

[InAccordance]

I had one of those on my Prelude, worked great.
I actually still have a regulator with the top cut off which is what you have to do with those.

[Shane86]

I had one of those on my Prelude, worked great.
I actually still have a regulator with the top cut off which is what you have to do with those.

Yes when I swap to the B16 intake manifold I just swap the part over. And I am still using it to this day

[Dr_Snooz]

Wow stock pressure should be around 34 psi. When's the last time you replace the fuel pump or the pressure regulator

I think they're original...

[Shane86]

I think they're original...

Yeah I would Prime the system up cycle the key let the fuel pump Prime and check for leaks. Fuel pressure should be around 30 to 35. It may be time for a new pump or regulator

[Oldblueaccord]

I bought the eBay fuel gauge (thanks Shane!) and put it on today: 9 psi at idle. I ran it around the block and got it up to 7 psi.

OMG.

I can hardly believe that's right. Would the car even run if it were that low?

I cant see it running that low...even at like 25 psi my car would barely idle and the AFR would be way lean. I think they E bay gauge is junk. You are checking it on the fuel filter banjo bolts?

[conozo]

I don't think that's right either.

I installed one of these cheap universal fuel pressure regulator with a guage and it's works well.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jdm-Adjustable-Fuel-Pressure-Regulator-Gauge-Honda-Civic-Prelude-Crx-Black-/250648435981?nav=SEARCH

[Oldblueaccord]

I think they're original...

Pulling the vacuum line off the regulator should give you full fuel pressure like stated about 38 psi.

My cars not holding pressure at all but it starts fairly well warm just a few extra cranks to get it going. Cold it needs to be primed up a few keys clicks to fire off cleanly.

[Dr_Snooz]

I have my precision instrument Harbor Freight Master Fuel Injection Pressure Test kit here so I can verify the reading. The kit is pretty accurate as far as I can tell. It's pretty sad that the kit I bought from Harbor Freight is 1/4 the price that my local mechanic paid for the kit he got from some pro vendor, yet looks exactly the same. Do the jokers running these companies not understand how this ends for them? They're charging 4x what they should to mail me the same stuff I can buy in town, same day, for 1/4 the price? It's like they WANT to go out of business.

Here's the deal though. I pretty much just piddled around on the car yesterday. I swapped in the new ignition switch and cleaned up the ground wires on the car. I didn't do anything fancy, just wire brushed the contact points for each ground and greased them with dielectric grease. There was the tiniest bit of rust on the contact surfaces. More like discoloration than dust. Nothing even remotely crusty. I also put on new brake pads, front and rear, Wagner QuickStop, and installed the new fuel pressure gauge, obviously.

Today, I've had 2 clean warm starts, as in 3 cranks and the car fires up. There was no roughness or sputtering. It may be coincidence, or it may be something I did to the car yesterday, but I think the car is happy about the rims. ;-)

[Dr_Snooz]

Well, two more warm starts today without issue. I guess this problem is solved. I'm not sure what I did, but you can take your pick from the above. I'm glad it works again. :dunno:

[InAccordance]

ignition switch probably lol

[AC439]

So Snooz, is your fuel pressure back up to spec now ?

When I was troubleshooting my still occurring 2k rpm shake, I did the fuel volume flow test (was low so I changed the fuel pump) and then tested fuel pressure with the Harbor Fright fuel pressure testing gauge taped to the windshield so I can read it under different condition.

But even when my volume test was about 50% below spec, the car ran fine. I could not believe your engine can run with only 7-9 psi.

[Dr_Snooz]

It's running so good now, I didn't even test it. It's one of those maybe-I-don't-want-to-know-right-now kind of deals. I really need to replace the rack before I do much else. I bashed it pretty good when I hit the curb. It's not functioning well.

What a remarkable car that it can have awful tires and half wore-out parts and accident damage and still put a big grin on your face. My brother test drove a new Civic Si recently and was completely unimpressed. I wasn't especially impressed with it either. How can so much engineering go into these new cars and they still be so much worse than an old beater that's barely hanging together?

[carotman]

So, the problem isn't there anymore but it should still be there? I hate those.

[Dr_Snooz]

I don't know, honestly. The car is old and I'm finding that things are deteriorating without my realizing it, like the injectors. There's probably a lot of things contributing to the warm restart issue, with the grounds and ignition switch being the worst offenders. Replacing those is enough to get me running right again, so I'm content to leave it there.

There comes a point in the life of a car when you have to replace entire systems from stem to stern. I'm definitely at that point, which is why I'm looking into engine swaps, asking about coilovers, etc. My wheels were in the worst shape with two wore out tires, two crappy Chinese tires, 1-2 bent rims and a tire size that no one offers anymore. I've handled that now, which leaves my steering as the next big project. For that, I need to replace everything: rack, pump, hoses, reservoir, everything. Coilovers and front suspension are probably next. Brakes are on the list too. Other stuff, like grounds and wiring, is getting patched up until I can get to it in a more holistic way.

The whole process is a tricky one. My desire is to replace everything with new OE parts. Sadly, Honda took that option away 2 decades ago. I'm having to figure out how to retrofit stuff in, but I want the retrofitted stuff to be reliable. Reliable in the sense of it working well and not breaking, but also in the larger sense of my being able to find replacement parts and technical support when it does finally break.

TMI, TLDR, I know. Executive summary: The original problem is sufficiently solved that I'm not going to worry about it anymore.

[InAccordance]

Sad part is that most of the parts that are available are Chinese knockoffs that dont fit right or wear out quickly. I put spanking new calipers, hydraulic hoses, pads, rotors, the works... already having a caliper drag after a few months.
Just cheap parts.
I think dropping 400$+ on those wilwoods would actually be the best option in the long run. At least they would last a long time.

[Dr_Snooz]

I agree. The quality of the hot rod stuff is incredible. That's why I'm trying to retrofit their stuff in. It's the best of the best, and a lot of the suppliers have been around since I was a kid: Holley, Edelbrock, MSD, Wilwood, B&M, Hurst, Enkei, etc. They are US-based companies who create good jobs for their people. They run good businesses. You can call them on the phone with a problem and be talking to a US-based engineer in the same call. No run around, no BS. Will Honda ever do that for you? They'll yank the rug out from under you without a second thought. Which is great because all these evil corporations are going out of business now. They've earned it and I won't miss them.

I'll try to call Wilwood and see if they still offer those calipers and more importantly, if they intend to keep making the pads and parts for a long, long time.

[InAccordance]

Summit has them for 399$ last I looked.

[Dr_Snooz]

Moving the discussion over to a dedicated thread: https://www.3geez.com/forum/suspension-wheels-tires-brakes/142263-wilwood-front-caliper-kit.html#post1212677

[InAccordance]

word

[Oldblueaccord]

I don't know. I replaced the sensor the manual identified as the TW sensor. When I disconnected it, the engine immediately died. The other is a thermoswitch, for the fans I assume. I'm pretty confident that I got the right one, but who knows?

Work is killing me with the overtime right now. It's a good problem to have, so I'm not complaining. Just tired. I bought the big battery tester from Harbor Freight and it should tell me a lot. I'll test it when I can get a chance. Hopefully tomorrow, but we'll see.

Thank you everyone for the help.

9603

I unhooked my TW switch today and the car keep running and I can restart it.

9604

Unhooked and code 6 running at idle and at 2 grand for 1 min its noticeably richer. It starts at 13.6 and runs down to 12.8 pretty quick.

[Shane86]

9603

I unhooked my TW switch today and the car keep running and I can restart it.

9604

Unhooked and code 6 running at idle and at 2 grand for 1 min its noticeably richer. It starts at 13.6 and runs down to 12.8 pretty quick.

Just to confirm so the green plug is the TW switch

[Dr_Snooz]

From the Electrical Troubleshooting Manual:

https://previews.dropbox.com/p/thumb/AAf8H10-N5PHKCJnuJq4jsgiAtB9FUTQVARi291OeV07nRndHF0Bo7Gfng L6gZdfwRyjZJvUMX8XaOJIHhKjAyV_y8NqNdct_YLI8xyuOkcT RgCqXHddsINiREti1zMX1AyTLiVb2CIzKpKtQ-e_0LJeFbI4GX0UfXjfecIiptA6N1XqCFFcQQ7Jvr6Hl9tTZVcs wTG_hHquxKsjIbrg9riAjGtLn3co2KU-I3oYXoPNR9-VewerGg6EvLJOHYQdqX-HcEd3ZDDkQUCBPFZnWCAIX7VmOMa2GYbfJ3bkuYwb9WVggn6ju gGa5bWI7RDe606zxafZCtnZg_UtSMb5MZdM/p.png?fv_content=true&size_mode=5

From the Service Manual:

https://previews.dropbox.com/p/thumb/AAc0-5WRmuYl5Bga2sc2VP50sd5qkGFsl37wvCfeuzPE_dGI2I1Rtxx 6i2QC86hWrKXhXsJNxQwlNrQ2e7o2_Y3qP4BCb7edm5v6BW2Kq jLkS_VGLaQWwIWhHDhnER3z7Kjek6zWTCU3eB1imDW1oEDgqCM 3Q-I1mZyYMqhS3XJ4SJM1P1s-eyLXn3cYBnmXjy8qikQU6VT_UVGFZJQIMGbrBtVU_xHyvUqmO9 G3lecgOSKvD-qmJ-yitnPT2WYQya2sKGD2eez36W-fDbkifo0nNSwjuQ0l4Hwrg850_MiMv0YDYDRFQjRFfHzUbz_At 0YHWpmFZ4sTDvTLALHrqZrW/p.png?fv_content=true&size_mode=5

TW sensor is closest to the head. The other is Coolant Temp Switch B. It's one of 2 switches that operate the cooling fans, at least on my '89 EFI AC equipped car.

Wiring diagrams and explanations for the cooling fan circuit are on p. 202 of the '89 Electrical Troubleshooting Manual. Diagrams and explanation for the EFI system and TW sensor are on p. 248 of the same. I can't speak to individual cars, or model years other than 88-89, but this is what Honda intended to come out of their factories, and barring industrial sabotage or corrupt union intrigue, that's probably how they came. I'm not trying to be combative; I just don't want people chasing their tails needlessly. Electrical troubleshooting is hard enough without going down blind alleys.



In looking at this more closely, I found that the wires going to my TW sensor (closest to the head) are completely severed in 2 places! I don't know how that didn't trip the CEL, but even if there were enough stray strands connecting together to prevent a CEL, there weren't enough to give a clean signal. That's probably why the car has more power some days than other days, why the idle occasionally becomes rough and my warm restarts are iffy. Now that I've found the opens, the CEL is lit. Thanks for being a day late and a dollar short! I'll replace that connector and see what happens. I do still have some roughness occasionally on warm restarts which I don't like.

Does anyone know if this connector (https://www.ebay.com/itm/VTEC-Oil-Pressure-Switch-Sensor-Solenoid-Plug-Pigtail-Wire-Harness-Connector-Kit/283269238403?fits=Make%3AHonda&epid=8026160836&hash=item41f4298e83:g:nHQAAOSwMhVb86zi)would work for that application?

Thanks for your help guys!

[Shane86]

From the Electrical Troubleshooting Manual:

https://previews.dropbox.com/p/thumb/AAf8H10-N5PHKCJnuJq4jsgiAtB9FUTQVARi291OeV07nRndHF0Bo7Gfng L6gZdfwRyjZJvUMX8XaOJIHhKjAyV_y8NqNdct_YLI8xyuOkcT RgCqXHddsINiREti1zMX1AyTLiVb2CIzKpKtQ-e_0LJeFbI4GX0UfXjfecIiptA6N1XqCFFcQQ7Jvr6Hl9tTZVcs wTG_hHquxKsjIbrg9riAjGtLn3co2KU-I3oYXoPNR9-VewerGg6EvLJOHYQdqX-HcEd3ZDDkQUCBPFZnWCAIX7VmOMa2GYbfJ3bkuYwb9WVggn6ju gGa5bWI7RDe606zxafZCtnZg_UtSMb5MZdM/p.png?fv_content=true&size_mode=5

From the Service Manual:

https://previews.dropbox.com/p/thumb/AAc0-5WRmuYl5Bga2sc2VP50sd5qkGFsl37wvCfeuzPE_dGI2I1Rtxx 6i2QC86hWrKXhXsJNxQwlNrQ2e7o2_Y3qP4BCb7edm5v6BW2Kq jLkS_VGLaQWwIWhHDhnER3z7Kjek6zWTCU3eB1imDW1oEDgqCM 3Q-I1mZyYMqhS3XJ4SJM1P1s-eyLXn3cYBnmXjy8qikQU6VT_UVGFZJQIMGbrBtVU_xHyvUqmO9 G3lecgOSKvD-qmJ-yitnPT2WYQya2sKGD2eez36W-fDbkifo0nNSwjuQ0l4Hwrg850_MiMv0YDYDRFQjRFfHzUbz_At 0YHWpmFZ4sTDvTLALHrqZrW/p.png?fv_content=true&size_mode=5

TW sensor is closest to the head. The other is Coolant Temp Switch B. It's one of 2 switches that operate the cooling fans, at least on my '89 EFI AC equipped car.

Wiring diagrams and explanations for the cooling fan circuit are on p. 202 of the '89 Electrical Troubleshooting Manual. Diagrams and explanation for the EFI system and TW sensor are on p. 248 of the same. I can't speak to individual cars, or model years other than 88-89, but this is what Honda intended to come out of their factories, and barring industrial sabotage or corrupt union intrigue, that's probably how they came. I'm not trying to be combative; I just don't want people chasing their tails needlessly. Electrical troubleshooting is hard enough without going down blind alleys.



In looking at this more closely, I found that the wires going to my TW sensor (closest to the head) are completely severed in 2 places! I don't know how that didn't trip the CEL, but even if there were enough stray strands connecting together to prevent a CEL, there weren't enough to give a clean signal. That's probably why the car has more power some days than other days, why the idle occasionally becomes rough and my warm restarts are iffy. Now that I've found the opens, the CEL is lit. Thanks for being a day late and a dollar short! I'll replace that connector and see what happens. I do still have some roughness occasionally on warm restarts which I don't like.

Does anyone know if this connector (https://www.ebay.com/itm/VTEC-Oil-Pressure-Switch-Sensor-Solenoid-Plug-Pigtail-Wire-Harness-Connector-Kit/283269238403?fits=Make%3AHonda&epid=8026160836&hash=item41f4298e83:g:nHQAAOSwMhVb86zi)would work for that application?

Thanks for your help guys!

Here's a link where you can get the terminals to crimp to the wire. Motorcycle .090 - 2.3mm Connector and Terminals (http://www.cycleterminal.com/hw-series-090.html) the two pin HV 90

[Oldblueaccord]

Just to confirm so the green plug is the TW switch

For my car a 1988 J code car I would say yes. its gave code 6.

I suspected it would run rich and it seemed to running 2000 rpms for about a min more. I was stationary just running it in my driveway.

[Dr_Snooz]

I replaced my connector today and I can verify that the eBay connector above works. It also comes with a nice length of wire attached, which makes it easy to replace, especially if you have to cut off a long length of hard crusty wire from your old loom. The old wire was pretty hammered on mine. Multiple breaks and very hard. I can't believe it never gave me a CEL like that.



9603

I unhooked my TW switch today and the car keep running and I can restart it.

9604

Unhooked and code 6 running at idle and at 2 grand for 1 min its noticeably richer. It starts at 13.6 and runs down to 12.8 pretty quick.

Out of curiosity, I did the exact same test with my car today after replacing the connector and got the exact same results with the opposite sensor. I pulled the new connector while the car was running. It coughed, recovered and flashed a code 6. The idle went up and it smelled richer. I tried pulling the other connector and nothing happened. Technically Blue, our cars should be the same. It's not like a 86-87 vs. 88-89 difference. I'm flummoxed. :dunno: Mine was made in the US, so maybe that explains it?

[AC439]

I broke both connectors and repaired them by soldering and JB/epoxy. Next time may get new connectors.

[Oldblueaccord]

I replaced my connector today and I can verify that the eBay connector above works. It also comes with a nice length of wire attached, which makes it easy to replace, especially if you have to cut off a long length of hard crusty wire from your old loom. The old wire was pretty hammered on mine. Multiple breaks and very hard. I can't believe it never gave me a CEL like that.




Out of curiosity, I did the exact same test with my car today after replacing the connector and got the exact same results with the opposite sensor. I pulled the new connector while the car was running. It coughed, recovered and flashed a code 6. The idle went up and it smelled richer. I tried pulling the other connector and nothing happened. Technically Blue, our cars should be the same. It's not like a 86-87 vs. 88-89 difference. I'm flummoxed. :dunno: Mine was made in the US, so maybe that explains it?

Huh well i had to read that twice...I thought I removed the connector on the other one but maybe I didnt. Im with you the wire and connectors are at the end of there life I dont like messing with them. I messed up the temp wire just knocking around in there.

[Dr_Snooz]

Wire problems are a real headache. Looms are expensive and wire problems are difficult to track down. I keep boxes of various sized split loom on hand and make sure to keep all my wires covered as much as possible. The loom gets brittle from the heat, crumbles and falls off and I replace it when that happens. Basically, the split loom crumbles and falls off instead of your wire insulation. As an added benefit, the split loom makes it harder for the field mice here to eat the wires inside. (Grrrrr...) Still, there' a finite lifetime for everything, and while wires deeper in the loom appear to be fine, the wire on the ends is hard and brittle, especially in that area around the coolant neck.

As a complete aside/threadjack, I really hate crimp connectors. They are fat, clumsy and ugly. They add bulk to looms and keep wires from fitting inside their split loom covers. I'd try soldering, but what I've read says not to do it in an engine bay because the vibration and heat cycling can cause failure. This time I stripped off the big fat plastic cover from my crimp connectors and used the metal barrels alone, covered with heat shrink. I'm much happier with the results, but i'd still prefer something sleeker. It's just me being overly fussy. Again. Anyway, tomorrow is another week of commuting, so we'll see how well my repair holds up.

[carotman]

As a complete aside/threadjack, I really hate crimp connectors. They are fat, clumsy and ugly. They add bulk to looms and keep wires from fitting inside their split loom covers. I'd try soldering, but what I've read says not to do it in an engine bay because the vibration and heat cycling can cause failure. This time I stripped off the big fat plastic cover from my crimp connectors and used the metal barrels alone, covered with heat shrink. I'm much happier with the results, but i'd still prefer something sleeker. It's just me being overly fussy. Again. Anyway, tomorrow is another week of commuting, so we'll see how well my repair holds up.

I now use these:

https://kojaycat.co.uk/15mm-1mm-U-Joint-Auto-Cable-Crimp

It's even better than solder and this is how the OEM loom was made.

[Shane86]

I now use these:

https://kojaycat.co.uk/15mm-1mm-U-Joint-Auto-Cable-Crimp

It's even better than solder and this is how the OEM loom was made.

I use these as well

[Dr_Snooz]

You send away to England for them? What crimper do you use?

My warm restart issue has returned, BTW. It seems to resolve if I wiggle the battery cables. I'm putting a Big 3 upgrade on the list. Anyone have a pretty way to crimp battery cables?

[Shane86]

I get my stuff in the United States here's a link to the called splices. Splice Terminals (http://www.cycleterminal.com/splice-terminals.html)


And I use a open Barrel crimper tool. Just the cheap one off eBay I can't afford the 200 for a real one. Or small pair of pliers will work. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F13 3102062423

[Oldblueaccord]

You send away to England for them? What crimper do you use?

My warm restart issue has returned, BTW. It seems to resolve if I wiggle the battery cables. I'm putting a Big 3 upgrade is on the list. Anyone have a pretty way to crimp battery cables?

The bolt and screw place I goto makes battery cables so they have all the crimp stuff. If I buy the ends theyll crimp onto used wires for me anyway.

Else use a vice and rig up some jaws to do it.

[Dr_Snooz]

I get my stuff in the United States here's a link to the called splices. Splice Terminals (http://www.cycleterminal.com/splice-terminals.html)


And I use a open Barrel crimper tool. Just the cheap one off eBay I can't afford the 200 for a real one. Or small pair of pliers will work. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F13 3102062423

I actually have one of those crimpers. LOL

The splice terminals are nice. I'm going to pick up a bunch of those. Thanks guys!

[InAccordance]

I was having ground issues that would cause non restarts. I just took a 12g wire and stuck some ring terminals on it. One end to ground on battery and one end to a random bolt on the car body. Never happened again.

[Dr_Snooz]

I think it's the fuel pressure regulator.

I've had the luxury of ignoring this issue, and have made little progress on it. Work is an hour away, one way, and my daily drive involves going out in the morning when the car is cool, starting it up and driving straight to work. In the evening, I go out again when the car is cool, start it up and drive straight home. It's a problem, but one that doesn't really impact me. Even so, it's been hard to ignore the problem getting steadily worse to the point that even cold starts are becoming sluggish. I made the mistake today of driving the car for my weekly shopping run (and not the truck like I usually do). When I came out from my first stop, I was hosed. The car would not start no matter how much I ground it, or held the throttle open. As I troubleshot and cursed, I noticed that the valve cover ground wire was unusually hot, which confirms that I need a Big 3 upgrade. I grabbed the jumper cables from the trunk and rigged up my own ground, which did nothing. So a Big 3 upgrade won't help this issue. What I couldn't ignore was the overwhelming stench of fresh gas every time I cranked the starter. It was BAD. I pulled the fuel injector fuse and the car started right up. It died again immediately, but hey, that's progress. I confirmed on the web that vacuum controlled regulators can go bad and flood the engine. So I got tricky and unplugged the main relay, started the car and plugged it back in immediately, which worked great for every start after that! So at least I have a workaround while I order an FPR. The only real problem now is that these regulators run $85-$100 at the parts stores around here. Thank God Rock Auto has them for $32. I just hope they work well.

TLDR, I know, but if anyone has any input, it's welcome.

[ShiRen]

Going full return and fitting my car with something like this https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-27001/overview/ has always interested me

[Oldblueaccord]

I think it's the fuel pressure regulator.

I've had the luxury of ignoring this issue, and have made little progress on it. Work is an hour away, one way, and my daily drive involves going out in the morning when the car is cool, starting it up and driving straight to work. In the evening, I go out again when the car is cool, start it up and drive straight home. It's a problem, but one that doesn't really impact me. Even so, it's been hard to ignore the problem getting steadily worse to the point that even cold starts are becoming sluggish. I made the mistake today of driving the car for my weekly shopping run (and not the truck like I usually do). When I came out from my first stop, I was hosed. The car would not start no matter how much I ground it, or held the throttle open. As I troubleshot and cursed, I noticed that the valve cover ground wire was unusually hot, which confirms that I need a Big 3 upgrade. I grabbed the jumper cables from the trunk and rigged up my own ground, which did nothing. So a Big 3 upgrade won't help this issue. What I couldn't ignore was the overwhelming stench of fresh gas every time I cranked the starter. It was BAD. I pulled the fuel injector fuse and the car started right up. It died again immediately, but hey, that's progress. I confirmed on the web that vacuum controlled regulators can go bad and flood the engine. So I got tricky and unplugged the main relay, started the car and plugged it back in immediately, which worked great for every start after that! So at least I have a workaround while I order an FPR. The only real problem now is that these regulators run $85-$100 at the parts stores around here. Thank God Rock Auto has them for $32. I just hope they work well.

TLDR, I know, but if anyone has any input, it's welcome.

So too much fuel pressure?

Im not understanding.


if you were really cranking on the car the cables can get hot. A hot starter and heavy battery draw the amps can go over 200ADC pretty easy.

[Dr_Snooz]

Going full return and fitting my car with something like this https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-27001/overview/ has always interested me

Very intriguing. I'm not sure how I'd mount that to the existing rail but it's interesting. If the FPR coming from Rock Auto doesn't work out, I may look at that more closely. I'm not excited about spending $100 on an OE regulator, but for a rebuildable, quality aftermarket part, I'd be willing.


So too much fuel pressure?

Not sure. I don't know how this regulator works, honestly. It could be too much pressure, or not enough so the gas isn't atomizing properly? I know the car is flooding out real bad and this is about the only thing left that could be doing that. I've already replaced the injectors, and the pump pressure is within spec. We'll see what happens.

[Oldblueaccord]

Very intriguing. I'm not sure how I'd mount that to the existing rail but it's interesting. If the FPR coming from Rock Auto doesn't work out, I may look at that more closely. I'm not excited about spending $100 on an OE regulator, but for a rebuildable, quality aftermarket part, I'd be willing.



Not sure. I don't know how this regulator works, honestly. It could be too much pressure, or not enough so the gas isn't atomizing properly? I know the car is flooding out real bad and this is about the only thing left that could be doing that. I've already replaced the injectors, and the pump pressure is within spec. We'll see what happens.


The regulator restricts the return fuel hence making pressure before it. I would think if it would fail it would be open and make less pressure...open flow.

I use an AEM adjustable and run flat 40 psi.

https://jhpusa.com/products/aem-high-volume-adjustable-fuel-pressure-regulator-honda-acura

I agree if you smell gas its flooded for sure. I still suspect the temp sensor or even maybe the main relay...just a connection week someplace. Something is making the injectors get confused and flood on start.

[ShiRen]

If you dont use a Honda style fpr like that AEM you can always make a fuel rail. Thar one was just my choice because im carby, but I also picked it for turbo and I probably wont go down that road.

[rushell]

i had the same problem about 2 years i could smell gas and the spark plugs was drenched in gas it was the ecu

[Dr_Snooz]

Blister your tongue! That's a hard part to replace. Anyway, isn't it supposed to flash codes, or not blink the CEL at startup or something else? I don't suppose it would be the end of the world if I had to swap in a MegaSquirt controller or something. The car would probably be down for awhile though.

I replaced the FPR tonight. The first start was very strong. That's been true of everything I've tried so far, so we'll see what happens over the next few weeks.

On a brighter note, my last tank got over 30 MPG again. That doesn't sound very remarkable until you learn that it's AC mileage. Now you're impressed, right?

[Dr_Snooz]

Oh, you're probably right. The starting is better, but nowhere near where it should be with the new FPR. Coming home tonight I noticed the charge light flashing at me from time to time. My volts gauge was reading pretty low too. The alternator only has 40k miles on it. It could be bad, but it could be another sign that my grounds need help. I'll try to get to that this weekend. I don't have any shortage of stuff to do, so we'll see.

Anyway, I'll do the grounds and then the ECU if I'm stilling having trouble. The sucko part about that is the pool of ECUs isn't exactly wonderful. I've tried two different ECUs in this car before and both were bad. There are dozens of ECUs on eBay, but there's no way of knowing whether they work. I'd prefer to have my existing ECU reconditioned. If that's even possible.

[Dr_Snooz]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o7zp36dchb4kbg8/20190810_170012.jpg?dl=0I had to do something, so I added another wire from the chain hook on the intake to the shock tower mount. I didn't have a heavy gauge crimper, so I used a hammer to crimp the connectors like a proper hillbilly would (crimper arrived tonight). The car starts and runs stronger and more consistently. Today was shopping day with several stops and it started strong each time.

That's all great, but the charge light still winks at me. Now that I have the crimper I'll do the whole job professionally and we'll see what happens. Maybe I'll do a write-up. Maybe not. I have other things on my mind.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o7zp36dchb4kbg8/20190810_170012.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/o7zp36dchb4kbg8/20190810_170012.jpg?raw=1

I really don't want it to look like this when the rain starts

[ShiRen]

I have a #2 wire from the hook to the shock mount and no valve cover ground (its fugly who tf thought it was a good idea to put that there)... Are you sure your alternator is good because thats really what this is sounding like... unless your bat-body ground is shit too.

[Oldblueaccord]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o7zp36dchb4kbg8/20190810_170012.jpg?dl=0I had to do something, so I added another wire from the chain hook on the intake to the shock tower mount. I didn't have a heavy gauge crimper, so I used a hammer to crimp the connectors like a proper hillbilly would (crimper arrived tonight). The car starts and runs stronger and more consistently. Today was shopping day with several stops and it started strong each time.

That's all great, but the charge light still winks at me. Now that I have the crimper I'll do the whole job professionally and we'll see what happens. Maybe I'll do a write-up. Maybe not. I have other things on my mind.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o7zp36dchb4kbg8/20190810_170012.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/o7zp36dchb4kbg8/20190810_170012.jpg?raw=1

I really don't want it to look like this when the rain starts


Someone stole your siding?

I would carry your meter and do some voltage checks and see whats what.

[Dr_Snooz]

I managed to get it all done last weekend. I had company and any work on the siding went straight out the window, so to speak, which left time to do the Big 3 upgrade. Every start since has been strong. Hot, cold, whatever. It's all been great. The car is almost back to its old 2 cranks and fire routine. It also seems to run a little stronger, smoother and more consistent too. I'm going to call this one solved (again. LOL). The charge light still winks at me though. Probably more ground stuff that I'll dig into at some point.

This was a fun one for sure. I did a lot of Easter egging, changing coil, injectors, sensors, wires, FPR, etc. Of that list though, the only things I felt like I didn't need were the coil and TW sensor. Everything else had been on my mind. The parts were all really old, as in original '89 vintage stuff. I kept wondering how much longer they'd go, and how I would know when they failed. (A few other items on my mind still are the suspension bushings, shocks and springs.)

Anyway, here's the hillybilly auxiliary ground that got removed.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5uyo263akwipy9w/20190825_100050.jpg?raw=1


This is garbage. The broken strand didn't show up in the photo, for some reason.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s9t063w0etjp6v8/20190825_143804.jpg?raw=1

Yummy new wires!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/47ti4pi9zyz8yuw/20190825_143329.jpg?raw=1

Installed:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mnp12bcf7w9ppvy/20190825_151155.jpg?raw=1

You can see how I changed the routing on this ground. I had to scrape off some paint to do it, but I think this is a much stronger ground point than that little piece of wire on the valve cover.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8cv3astj3qlyzkk/20190825_145011.jpg?raw=1


https://www.dropbox.com/s/p6h5q1erb1ors7r/20190825_144956.jpg?raw=1


https://www.dropbox.com/s/2im2f8t6rm2zz1n/20190825_144952.jpg?raw=1

[Dr_Snooz]

I would carry your meter and do some voltage checks and see whats what.

I installed a volt gauge for precisely that reason!



Someone stole your siding?

Nah. Some big idiot named Dr_Snooz tore it off. Would you believe that the first month after I moved in, I walked around back and leaned against the siding. It was so rotted that my hand went through. Here it is 8 (as in EIGHT!!!!) years later and I still haven't managed it. FML

I did manage to get this wall completed though:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/62xbv4inzomqk12/20190712_055747.jpg?dl=0https://www.dropbox.com/s/62xbv4inzomqk12/20190712_055747.jpg?raw=1

Almost looks legit, no?

[conozo]

Looks good.

What guage wire did you go with?

[Dr_Snooz]

I went with 4 gauge for a very scientific reason: that's all O'Reilly had in stock LOL. Basically I could get everything I needed at one go. It helps that the factory battery cables are 4 gauge too.

Did my shopping tonight and every start was epic. Super strong, no drama at all. Even the power windows roll down faster; the cruise is more consistent. Yay!!

I really like the battery terminals too. There's always a few electrical items you want to add on to any car, but when you go to connect them to the battery, the attachment is awkward and you end up with a scrambled mess. The single post makes additional attachments easy. Also, the wing nuts make battery disconnections (for all the time I spend working on it) easy. I think the setup is going to work very well.

[conozo]

I feel like im running into this issue. Hot restarts it cranks for 10 seconds then fires up everytime but it still takes much longer than the initial cold start which is a like a half a crank and go.

Do you feel like your gound cables still fixed this issue? I had already replaced my ground cables months ago which did fix all my other issues but this one crept up recently and i feel is getting worse.

[Dr_Snooz]

Yeah, this issue is totally resolved with the new battery cables. Check your main relay before doing anything else, of course, but if that isn't it and you don't feel like you're getting the full amperage out of your battery, definitely change the cables.

[Dr_Snooz]

Oh, and just because I know everyone has been losing sleep wondering whether I got siding back on the house.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m33uj1dyop36jrx/20191005_172135.jpg?raw=1

[Pudge]

So I'm having a similar problem, starts just fine when its been sitting and after its been running i was holding the throttle wide open to start it, that has been harder to do to where i am unplugging the fuel pump and letting it run on the excess fuel and plugging the pump in before it dies. electrical issues have not appeared to be involved, I have to ask if you agree that it is a FPR?


Edit: FPR did nothing, i dont think its tw sensor because well i just dont want it to be lol going to put new injectors in and see, it needs new ones anyhow.

[ShiRen]

Its fpr or injectors, probably would not hurt to replace both

[Oldblueaccord]

So I'm having a similar problem, starts just fine when its been sitting and after its been running i was holding the throttle wide open to start it, that has been harder to do to where i am unplugging the fuel pump and letting it run on the excess fuel and plugging the pump in before it dies. electrical issues have not appeared to be involved, I have to ask if you agree that it is a FPR?

https://www.3geez.com/forum/efi-tech/60400-tw-sensor.html

read thru this and see if it matches up with whats going on with your car.

EDIT: https://www.3geez.com/forum/efi-tech/108726-tw-sensor-clarification.html

and this one.

[Dr_Snooz]

No one is going to recommend a new main relay?

[ShiRen]

No one is going to recommend a new main relay?

Wouldn't that be an intermittent no fuel issue? I would suggest it if the cost is not that high because its 30yo and I know I have heard of tons of people bandaid fixing their PGMFI relays every year by cleaning and retinning the contacts or something, but never on this forum. I used to have a 6g accord, it never had a problem, but I think that was like a $100 relay.

[Oldblueaccord]

No one is going to recommend a new main relay?

I read excess fuel warm and went with the TW sensor.

Main relay is stickied top of the EFI forum.

Number one is Main relay,two TW,three ignition switch,four distributor list of running driving,no start problems.

[Pudge]

https://www.3geez.com/forum/efi-tech/60400-tw-sensor.html

read thru this and see if it matches up with whats going on with your car.

EDIT: https://www.3geez.com/forum/efi-tech/108726-tw-sensor-clarification.html

and this one.

I'm thinking its the fuel injectors they show signs of marginal leaks like theres fresh gas around them sometimes and I reckon theyre just stuck open and the car can start cold like that because it needs more fuel to start cold. Thats just what im hoping for the new FPR did nothing at all. When she is moving she runs great! drove her 4 hours straight to buy some enkeis with new tires on them for 80 BUCKS total a few days ago. what a deal!

[Oldblueaccord]

I'm thinking its the fuel injectors they show signs of marginal leaks like theres fresh gas around them sometimes and I reckon theyre just stuck open and the car can start cold like that because it needs more fuel to start cold. Thats just what im hoping for the new FPR did nothing at all. When she is moving she runs great! drove her 4 hours straight to buy some enkeis with new tires on them for 80 BUCKS total a few days ago. what a deal!

yeah the injector leaking body is an known issue. I milked mine until I got sick of the gas smell all the time.

The TW sensor there is a "paper clip" trick where you make a jumper for the connector and it tricks the ECU to see the resistance it wants. The Helms book in the Fuel section has a chart of the temp. vs the resistance. Wouldnt cost much to jump it out when its hot and see if that hopefully does it.

[Oldblueaccord]

I read excess fuel warm and went with the TW sensor.

Main relay is stickied top of the EFI forum.

Number one is Main relay,two TW,three ignition switch,four distributor list of running driving,no start problems.

Also I should add I agree the Main Relay just needs to be replaced if suspect. Re soldering was ok on originals but does not "fix" weak,worn mechanical contacts in the relay itself.

[Oldblueaccord]

Updated the TW sensor thread with pics and videos.

[Pudge]

yeah the injector leaking body is an known issue. I milked mine until I got sick of the gas smell all the time.

The TW sensor there is a "paper clip" trick where you make a jumper for the connector and it tricks the ECU to see the resistance it wants. The Helms book in the Fuel section has a chart of the temp. vs the resistance. Wouldnt cost much to jump it out when its hot and see if that hopefully does it.

I've read about the TW sensor a bit and im hoping its just the injectors because im apprehensive to mess with things and im scared of messing up. Ill change the injectors when i get the new ones, I really hope its simply the injectors...

[Oldblueaccord]

Pudges video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtdqwmjA7iU

Hey if you could look under your driver seat at the ECU and check the codes from there. There is a little plastic window that folds down and youll see a single red led for the code. I got a suspicion you dash light is off for codes.

To double check your self pull that TW sensor plug and see if it codes out.

[Pudge]

I've checked the ECM it hasnt been throwing a code ever, running or not.

[Oldblueaccord]

Ok

[Dr_Snooz]

Yeah, change the injectors. If they are dribbling into the manifold it will cause exactly what you're showing. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's why I ultimately replaced mine. It was flooding out on warm restarts. By morning all the gas has evaporated (or run down into the crankcase, doh), so you have a clean first start.

The main relay almost a maintenance item at this point. Replace it just to be sure. Resoldering is a jury rig at best and won't work if the relays inside it are failing. It's a $50 part + 1 hour of profuse swearing under the dash, then you're done for another 50k miles or so.

[Pudge]

Yeah, change the injectors. If they are dribbling into the manifold it will cause exactly what you're showing. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's why I ultimately replaced mine. It was flooding out on warm restarts. By morning all the gas has evaporated (or run down into the crankcase, doh), so you have a clean first start.

The main relay almost a maintenance item at this point. Replace it just to be sure. Resoldering is a jury rig at best and won't work if the relays inside it are failing. It's a $50 part + 1 hour of profuse swearing under the dash, then you're done for another 50k miles or so.

Okay thanks. I just wasted even more money changing the injectors because it did not fix the issue, what confuses me and has me even more frustrated is how can the main relay be the issue when the temperature of the inside of the car remains the same (cold) but the engine is hot? I have read where the interior will get hot and then the car wont start for the main relay or am i just reading something wrong? I am sick and tired of dumping money into things that " might" do the trick when they have done literally nothing. I'm not mad at anyone but myself here lol just in case anyone took that to heart. I'm trying to get this thing out of its shitbox status and more of a car meet car, something that i don't have to unplug the fuel pump to get it to run when warm. I'm hoping to get some concrete answers on this, you guys have been around these chariots longer than I have and im hoping you could pass down some of that wisdom. thanks.

[ShiRen]

To be fair, the parts you are replacing are 30 years old, it is not in vain

[conozo]

These cars teach you to test and diagnose issues before replacing parts. Have you tried using resisters to rule out the TW sensor yet.

[Oldblueaccord]

Okay thanks. I just wasted even more money changing the injectors because it did not fix the issue, what confuses me and has me even more frustrated is how can the main relay be the issue when the temperature of the inside of the car remains the same (cold) but the engine is hot? I have read where the interior will get hot and then the car wont start for the main relay or am i just reading something wrong? I am sick and tired of dumping money into things that " might" do the trick when they have done literally nothing. I'm not mad at anyone but myself here lol just in case anyone took that to heart. I'm trying to get this thing out of its shitbox status and more of a car meet car, something that i don't have to unplug the fuel pump to get it to run when warm. I'm hoping to get some concrete answers on this, you guys have been around these chariots longer than I have and im hoping you could pass down some of that wisdom. thanks.

The injectors you replaced were leaking pretty bad and needed replacing so I dont see it as a loss. Leaking fuel right near spark,heat etc never a good thing long term.

I updated the TW sensor thread in the EFI section with copy of the Helms manual troubleshooting guide.

[Pudge]

Interesting development, unplugging the green which if im not mistaken is the TW sensor makes the car run like trash cold. I unplugged the white one just now that is next to it and it threw a code. Code 10 to be exact. which doesnt make sense because that is for an intake temperature sensor. I thought that was located elsewhere in the engine bay. ill post a video here in a second.

[Oldblueaccord]

Looking at some of the pictures over the years it seems the sensors positions are potentially swaped different years. Just to make it more confusing.

[Pudge]

https://youtu.be/s-j8ZdIc7HE This thing runs like new with it unplugged. give that a watch.

[Oldblueaccord]

OK very weird.

Your intake temp sensor is on the intake manifold right near the brake master cylinder. There will be a mess of vacuum lines there too.

The Honda ECU codes carry over for years with the TW sensor being 6. I cant really see it being a different make or model problem.

EDIT: Did you ohm it out the TW sensor and see what you get cold and fully warmed up?

I would always pay attention to what the book calls out for the WIRE color first, then the plug color, and then the color of the sensor.

They way the sensor works as the car gets hotter i forces the car to run richer. So like in my case once my car was over heating my air fuel ratio was 9 to1. helps protect the motor in a ham fisted sorta way.

Hope that helps in anyway.

[ShiRen]

EDIT: This post was an answer to another poster thread got spun off.


Dude, cool your head. You're commenting on 5 different old threads the op will probably never come back to comment on. It a lot easier to help you if you just made your own thread. And you're looking at way too many variables. It sounds like nothing is wrong with your battery. If it's turning over strong it's good enough to fire the plugs, old ignition coil systems do not pull a lot of current, you will hear the starter have trouble long before your ignition stops putting out a spark. If you legitimately don't have a spark the first places to look are the ignition coil and the ignitor. And your battery voltage drops while your starter is turning because resistance in a battery increases as current load is applied, it's what determines the maximum current output of a battery, and why lithium ion batteries are more potent at the same voltage.

[Oldblueaccord]

Dude, cool your head. You're commenting on 5 different old threads the op will probably never come back to comment on. It a lot easier to help you if you just made your own thread. And you're looking at way too many variables. It sounds like nothing is wrong with your battery. If it's turning over strong it's good enough to fire the plugs, old ignition coil systems do not pull a lot of current, you will hear the starter have trouble long before your ignition stops putting out a spark. If you legitimately don't have a spark the first places to look are the ignition coil and the ignitor. And your battery voltage drops while your starter is turning because resistance in a battery increases as current load is applied, it's what determines the maximum current output of a battery, and why lithium ion batteries are more potent at the same voltage.

Ill start him a thread when I get home....never gets old.

[ShiRen]

Jesus lol. Didnt have to be an asshole about it. Bro acts like I did when I was 16. Doesn't want to be steered straight, only wants to defeat systems, doesn't even test or replace the current parts he was expecting.

[Oldblueaccord]

I took care of it.

[ShiRen]

I saw that

[Oldblueaccord]

I saw that

I got my 17 dollar brake caliper to try out tonight!!

[ShiRen]

Oh boy, what are we trying out now?

[Oldblueaccord]

Dang you dont watch my videos? Thats my retirement!

My caliper is stuck I got a "new" one.

[Oldblueaccord]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZqwVfT2-Ig

Damn you hurt my feelings more than being called a punk lol from some one thats half my age.

[ShiRen]

😂 fine FINE I subbed. I had only watched most of the ones you posted as a response lol.

Boy, you're really living it up with that $1.50 a month YouTube retirement

[Oldblueaccord]

120 SUBS!

Man Im gonna buy you a candy bar for that thanks! im teared up a little.

So you cracked the code on the drum brake to disc deal!

[ShiRen]

Woah woah if you buy me a candy bar that will be your whole months salary, I couldn't take that from you!

Yeah calipers fit pretty good if you just cut the old mount off lol. They're still not done though, I have to weld, paint, assemble, plumb, and bleed them before an inspection at 2 tomorrow

[Oldblueaccord]

Inspection? Oh boy. we got none of that here

[ShiRen]

It's very loose here, especially in small towns... It's going in with no dash even

[Oldblueaccord]

I got one of my Scouts to pass no windshield...I showed up with goggles on. It fails if it was crack so I removed the whole frame.

[ShiRen]

Oh my Lord