Sudden drop in power then lurch

[Sandwich]

Hi All,

I have discovered a new problem on my drive home today, where on the motorway holding a steady speed my car will suddenly slow (dropping ~3mph) for 0.5 seconds then somewhat lurch again, especially so when I'd put my foot down when it happened. It's as if someone is putting the brakes on, I tried lifting my foot and it doesn't slow as quickly as this problem. When I had the car idling afterwards, it would idle nicely at 900rpm then drop to 400-500 almost stalling before picking up again in the same manner as above.

I am wondering what is to blame, although pretty sure the slowing is caused by some engine breaking so assuming fuel injection system.

My friend suggested it could be bad spark or a vacuum leak.

It's an A20A4 in an 89 Aerodeck EXI

Thanks!

[AWH]

I would suspect the ignition control module, probably placed on the distributor on your car [emoji780] Otherwise possible fuel problem.

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[Sandwich]

Thanks AWH, will have a read about that.
Bit of an update, car seems to idle a little more bumpy than usual, I also got some videos (1 at idle 1 at revs) of the problem happening:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/TstqkPvHRSSPXQgQ9
Have a look, they show it quite well. They were recorded stationary in neutral, so when the wheels are turning the revs drop less.

[Sandwich]

Anyone else got any wisdom they could share?

I've since bought a new coil, distributor cap, spark plugs, plug leads & rotor. Fingers crossed its one of those!

[AWH]

Those things you just acquired are always good things to start with, part of scheduled maintenance anyway and you can dismiss those now as culprits. Would be nice if that solved the problem. Also check your battery cables for tight fit and make sure all grounds are good. Keep us posted.

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[ShiRen]

Does your tachometer jump around in the high rpms? I just had the pickup in mine go bad and at one point it did feel like this, but the unsteady tach was extremely noticeable. I replaced my TEC distributor with a Hitachi unit and the issue is gone.

[AWH]

I have had the jumpy tachometer too twice, and both times it was the ICM, Ignition Control Module, that I had to replace that solved it in my case.

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[Sandwich]

Got an update.... fit the new parts listed above, doesnt seem to have solved the problem, perhaps worse. Now, especially in low revs, car will struggle to pull and be quite jolty. Do you know where I can source an ICM in Europe? cheers!

[AWH]

I sourced them on EBay.
Possibly Rockauto too ?

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[Sandwich]

Nice, I found a few on eBay after a few pages of searching, will grab one and cross fingers. I've added another video to the link above (might need a few mins to upload), shows it after the new parts when driving, my foot is being held steady and you can see how the car lurches, all the time before the jerk it feels pretty gutless and underpowered, and the jerk itself is pretty staccato so makes me think its more spark than a vacuum issue.

[Oldblueaccord]

Before you continue to swap parts try an few free things.

1. Double check your timing since you might have moved the distributor and messed up you static timing. You set this at idle warmed up,vacuum lines plugged.

2.While driving I would pinch off the two vacuum lines that goto the distributor and see if that effects the cruise surge you are talking about. That means there is wear in the vacuum advance plates inside the distributor.

I wouldnt pull the vacuum lines off because the plastic advance is usually brittle as glass and the little male ports snap right off.

One line is for when you start the car cold and one is for regular advance when the car is warmed up. I'm never sure which is what on what car so block them both and see what you get.

[Sandwich]

Before you continue to swap parts try an few free things.

1. Double check your timing since you might have moved the distributor and messed up you static timing. You set this at idle warmed up,vacuum lines plugged.

2.While driving I would pinch off the two vacuum lines that goto the distributor and see if that effects the cruise surge you are talking about. That means there is wear in the vacuum advance plates inside the distributor.

I wouldnt pull the vacuum lines off because the plastic advance is usually brittle as glass and the little male ports snap right off.

One line is for when you start the car cold and one is for regular advance when the car is warmed up. I'm never sure which is what on what car so block them both and see what you get.

I gave it a try using zipties to pinch both lines, and seemed on the cold start to run well then removed the zip ties for comparison and it ran worse, then tried some slightly fatter zipties again and it was still worse, makes me think it could be to do with how warm the engine is not neccessarily the vacuum pinching, although its possible the second zipties couldnt get tight enough.

Checked ECU flashes, it blinks once when key turned, is that to tell you its okay (lights working)? or that the oxygen sensor is bad?

Not sure on how oxygen sensor would contribute to this. I'm sorta suspecting leaky injectors too perhaps? it can take quite a few turns to start, and sometimes won't without me putting my foot down to 'help' it, they also likely havent been changed in a while...

got the ICM, but havent fitted it yet, will try that now. - update, ICM didnt fix it!

I didnt touch timing because I dont have the tools for it, could there be a difference that means it runs well cool and is worse when warmer? atm when im putting my foot down the car takes a good while to pick up revs, I've uploaded another vid to the link above showing this at idle (when i say nowmy fott goes down and is held for the whole video), doesnt sound very nice either :/

any help appreciated

[Sandwich]

Right, gave it a few runs round the block from cold. Idles and runs well when cold, as temp gradually increases, slow and jerk gradually increases. therefore, seems to be an issue when engines warm, not sure how this would affect vacuum or spark, maybe it is the vacuum diaphragm on the distributor?

[AWH]

Sorry ICM didn't do it [emoji55]. Vacuum advance is worth the try as well. Also wondering if choke isn't coming off, as should when warm. Really hope you will fix it. These engines are picky, and hard to diagnose as symptoms are so much alike between components. Dud you change coil as well. Sometimes when warm they fail as well...

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[Sandwich]

Sorry ICM didn't do it [emoji55]. Vacuum advance is worth the try as well. Also wondering if choke isn't coming off, as should when warm. Really hope you will fix it. These engines are picky, and hard to diagnose as symptoms are so much alike between components. Dud you change coil as well. Sometimes when warm they fail as well...


I checked coil and not sure really... detailed problem on this post: https://www.3geez.com/forum/efi-tech/148302-ignition-coil-resistance.html#post1221738

thanks for these suggestions, will look into them!

[Oldblueaccord]

I surely dont like that knock sound. you may want to check your oil pressure some of that sounds like a loose rod bearing.

I would still follow on up on it as a mis fire but that sound as the RPMS come down isnt a good one with no load on the engine. You can pull each plug wire ,one at a time, and try what your doing in the video and see if the motor sound changes.

[Sandwich]

I surely dont like that knock sound. you may want to check your oil pressure some of that sounds like a loose rod bearing.

I would still follow on up on it as a mis fire but that sound as the RPMS come down isnt a good one with no load on the engine. You can pull each plug wire ,one at a time, and try what your doing in the video and see if the motor sound changes.

That's an answer I didnt want to hear! I've got a blow in my exhaust so hoping its just that and the sound recorded funny, although will definitely check this up...

edit: Is this something I can pre-lim check by whipping my valve cover off and wiggling like in this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4znxWa5Ot0

[Oldblueaccord]

Well that's the oil pan off..rod bearings are on the crank shaft.bottom of the motor. Valve cover is the top.

Wouldn't hurt to check the top and double check the timing belt lines up at TDC correctly. Then do a compression check on each cylinder.

[Sandwich]

Well that's the oil pan off..rod bearings are on the crank shaft.bottom of the motor. Valve cover is the top.

Wouldn't hurt to check the top and double check the timing belt lines up at TDC correctly. Then do a compression check on each cylinder.

right, gotcha, had a google a look at a few more vids and see what you mean. I know compression is down on cylinder 1 (and its burning oil), assumed this was just a piston ring though...
cheers.

[Sandwich]

Got a feeling its vacuum advance diapraghm, anyone know where you can get them? none on UK eBay or RockAuto it seems. Dont really wanna buy a whole new dizzy since I got all those new parts ;(

[AWH]

I got one off Ebay WorldWide last year. Lot of them too. Make sure pick the right one. Was about € 50,- iirc.

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[AWH]

Here's my order. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com[IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201104/4e674290c8a0eccf704d312a04b4568c.jpg

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[AWH]

. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201104/78da2b4f1aa15acbac1cb4ba30059be9.jpg

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[Sandwich]

. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201104/78da2b4f1aa15acbac1cb4ba30059be9.jpg

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Hah! was just about to ask, and you read my mind! cheers AWH :)

[Sandwich]

I got one off Ebay WorldWide last year. Lot of them too. Make sure pick the right one. Was about € 50,- iirc.

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The picture for that one only seems to show 1 line, but i've got 2 on my aerodeck, is it only 1 on your prelude or am I missing something?

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edit: this looks more like it I think Standard Motor Products VC339 Distributor Vacuum Advance, Honda Prelude 84 85 86 87 - My Bay Car Parts (http://mybaycarparts.com/Standard-Motor-Products-VC339-Distributor-Vacuum-Advance-Honda-Prelude-84-85-86-87-P2662190.aspx)

[AWH]

For that AB Prelude it was one line indeed. So it's not the right one for yours,you need two. Pic.was just to show example and possibly an adress or something.

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[AWH]

Check for correct mounting base too.

[ShiRen]

The VC339 looks right, but for some reason 30104-PC7-663 for the Prelude does not cross to 30104-PH4-664 for the Accord. Both are a vac advance for a TEC distributor, I don't know any reason they would not be interchangeable.

[AWH]

More there. Check for Vacuum Advance Distributor. Honda....https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201104/40e8ca4e8e03a519c1ef022ce2bad7fe.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201104/9dbfe9c67181f3c05ecbd7698db53d38.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201104/dc27495a4df4b04bf1354cd351d7822a.jpg

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[AWH]

Did you search on Accord ones [emoji780]

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[Dr_Snooz]

Vac advance seems like a long shot to me. You can do a hillbilly check by removing it, pressing in the plunger, holding your finger over the hole and seeing if the plunger rises. If it does, the thing is bad. I'd spend some quality time with the manual, checking all the little dash pots, solenoids and other assorted wizardry attached to the carb. Do you notice any changes in the smell of the exhaust when this happens? Like smelling rich, lean, etc?

[Sandwich]

Vac advance seems like a long shot to me. You can do a hillbilly check by removing it, pressing in the plunger, holding your finger over the hole and seeing if the plunger rises. If it does, the thing is bad. I'd spend some quality time with the manual, checking all the little dash pots, solenoids and other assorted wizardry attached to the carb. Do you notice any changes in the smell of the exhaust when this happens? Like smelling rich, lean, etc?

Cheers for the help guys, in terms of the vac advance I;ve narrowed it down to the VC333, VC339, VC414, VC411 & VC283.

Juggling the car and coursework is interesting atm, but plan is to check timing and then test the Vac Ad this weekend, got a few more suggestions from aerodeck owners, I am considering buy a whole new dizzy if it is the vac ad thats bad, since then I know the seals and gaskets aren't gonna go next...

Its Fuel injected not carb FYI, other bits im gonna look at after are: control valve and thermovalve, maybe idle boost solenoid valve. These Fi cars dont have a choke right?

Cheers!

[AWH]

As far as I know they do have an automatic choke. Controlled by a wax element if I am correct. One of those two vaclines from advance is for cold idling. Not sure which one.

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[Sandwich]

Really no clue whats going on now... I'll talk through what I did today, thanks for bearing with me! Feel like its totally fcking fcked...

Started initially to test the vacuum going to vac ad diaphragm as per 12-56 in the manual. Both #12 and #15 have vacuum at idle. Let it idle for a while to warm up (replaced fan thermosensor although that didnt trigger so was waiting a while for fan to turn on), ended up having to cut the ignition because the temp got quite high as fan didnt turn on. Through this first test the car was idling well, from the high idle at startup to normal idle at ~800 RPM, throttle response seemed good too. Lot of white smoke coming from exhaust initially, reduced to nothing eventually, been like this the last 4 months of me owning it. The engine got quite hot, yet this didnt seem to detriment idle at all weirdly? i.e. I couldnt recreate the issue I had previously at a warm temp, I didnt drive it although it was definitely warm. see here:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/g5XF4FTRUx9VPSt88

After cutting it, I let it cool and shorted the thermosensor plug so fan would be auto on (which worked). Started the car and straight away idle worse. see here:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Wo3wxyMJT8Pg5hPA7
I could hear a dull whine as it dropped below 750RPM, you can hear it well here:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/XuLyKwCW3XAZrWux6
When putting my foot down the response is much worse, it can't hold revs and theres some pops and bangs as the RPM falls to 2k-1k. see here:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/zKunDzvfa4WkDmyc7
As I let it idle for a while (was trying to find the timing mark to no avail) the idle got worse & the sounds got worse, couldnt hear that original whine, now more of a squeek/squeal, and causing the exhaust on the car to shake a decent bit. see here:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Lty2mpMshPsxNb5E7
The vacuum on #12 was also oscillating quite a lot now, is this linked to the unsteadiness of engine revs?

The revs ended up dropping to flicking between ~250-750 and the whole car sound pretty dire. Throttle response was ZERO, I'd put foot down and nothing happens, maybe a slight inclination that its open but would immediately disappear again, I tried at the intake manifold too but no. see here:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/P37dyCMDdk74AxGn9


My current thoughts have changed. Why is it bad on the second run but seemingly fine on the first, at all temps? What are all these horrible noises coming from the underside of the car, is it that dreaded rod knock some1 mentioned? i.e. is it totally fckin fcked.
Now I'm thinking its an air leak at the intake manifold...perhaps, still cant explain those noises. Weird because I couldnt hear them at all the first time round, and it was running quite nicely.

Anyone ever had anything like this?

[Oldblueaccord]

Well on the short...when your car gets really hot like that it faults to running really rich and may have fouled the spark plugs.

I would pull them and look at them and replace with new NGK plain copper plugs gapped to spec on the under hood sticker.

If it has over heated before it may have indeed blow the headgasket and your getting occasionally water in the combustion chambers.

[Oldblueaccord]

On the last video your check engine light is on...check the code. It's probably false since the poor running could cause the o2 sensors to fault.

Gas Guage is at zero...it's got petrol in it?

[Sandwich]

On the last video your check engine light is on...check the code. It's probably false since the poor running could cause the o2 sensors to fault.

Gas Guage is at zero...it's got petrol in it?

Cheers old blue, I replaced the plugs as an attempted fix a few weeks back so will have a look at how theyre getting on, they're NGK 5EY-11 which I think are the right ones for my A20A4. I prodded the intake and vac lines with some butane but couldnt find any glaring air leaks at all.

In terms of check engine light, had a look and didnt see it on in vid, only handbrake light. Did check the ECU anyway and got just 1 flash, does that mean o2 like you say or is it a sanity flash?
Dont worry about fuel gauge, the 'hanger' I think its called (the sensor for it), is stuck at zero, yet to get round to looking at that!

How would being 1 tooth out on cambelt be? It ran fine for 400 miles or so after the change until this started happening. Same time I was never 100% confident I lined it up perfectly, since it was hard to get an idea of level.

Cheers!

[Oldblueaccord]

Well I would let it cool down completely, unhook the battery to clear the codes, and do a restart. I'm interested in how I think starts and runs ice cold like the first video.

Do check oil and coolant levels of course while everything is cold.

I don't like the motor noises but the rpm is so low and it's fighting to idle it will rattle the exhaust and miss fire sounds awful combined with low oil pressure at low rpms.

[Oldblueaccord]

Checking the timing belt alignment would not hurt at all.

[Sandwich]

Well I would let it cool down completely, unhook the battery to clear the codes, and do a restart. I'm interested in how I think starts and runs ice cold like the first video.

Do check oil and coolant levels of course while everything is cold.

I don't like the motor noises but the rpm is so low and it's fighting to idle it will rattle the exhaust and miss fire sounds awful combined with low oil pressure at low rpms.

Good shout, I'll pay good attention to how it starts from dead cold tomorrow and get a video of how it changes hopefully. I've got my hands on a timing gun now so should be able get a better idea of how thats looking. Will update. Cheers!

[Oldblueaccord]

Good shout, I'll pay good attention to how it starts from dead cold tomorrow and get a video of how it changes hopefully. I've got my hands on a timing gun now so should be able get a better idea of how thats looking. Will update. Cheers!

Further explanation in general terms:

When fuel injection engine is started cold the ECU uses a fixed set parameters and ignores a lot of the sensor inputs until the engine reaches "operating temperature" I think its 168 F. This is open loop.

Closed loop is when it takes sensor readings and goes off them to set things like the injector timing. Again ,in very general terms, between 1000 and 5000 rpm it looks at the O2 sensor,MAP, and throttle position to try and get the car to run at 14.7 AFR or Lambada 1.0. So warmed up if it starts going crazy then that tells me something like your O2 sensors is bad giving a bad parameter.

So thats part of the equation. The rest is all the mechanical stuff has to be in fair to good shape as well. LETS HOPE!

So if the timing belt was done 400 miles ago? and was running fine I would look at that area for sure. Taking the top timing cover off looking the belt over some and rechecking where the belt is a TDC.

I have run with the belt 4 teeth off for a short period looking for an oil leak. It ran an idled but made zero power. When I bought the car it was one tooth advanced and would ping quite a bit under load even with premium fuel.

Digest all that. Grab a beer ,read the manual a little more and see what you think.

[Dr_Snooz]

I think I'd start with a compression check on that engine. Rough running + lots of crankcase noise + smoke out the tailpipe = .....

[Sandwich]

I think I'd start with a compression check on that engine. Rough running + lots of crankcase noise + smoke out the tailpipe = .....

Didnt get round to doing anything yesterday

Ran a compression test a few months ago, came back with ~140 ~160 on cyls 2-4, & 130 140 cyl1. Coolant doesn't have any oil in, so my assumption was a poor piston ring...
Another thing to do again I think.

[ShiRen]

If you open the rad cap and run the car until its warm does the coolant bubble? Does your coolant disappear mysteriously? It would not surprise me one bit if you have a blown head gasket.

[Sandwich]

Small update, planning to do more tomorrow. I checked coolant level, which was low although a decent bit did overflow out the reservoir tank when it got quite hot the other day. Otherwise it hasnt really been drinking coolant when I've checked it previously, one to keep an eye on. Oil seems about right. No mayo on valve cap.
Smelt the valve area and got a slight tinge of petrol but not massive, mate said to check in case one injector was dumping causing all those pops and bangs and poor performance.

I've attached pics of plugs here:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/2KGRN3xrdi3LUKqw8
(they should be in order, brick background is cylinder 1)

As for timing, it doesnt look spot on tbh, hard to tell given I couldnt get my phone level for a picture, but I've attached some photos.

1043710438

[Sandwich]

1043910440

[ShiRen]

I am confused, you need to rotate the engine a couple more degrees, the crank and cam are both a hair off in your pics, so cyl 1 is not at tdc. Ive found the best way to set timing is rotate the crank to the line on the flywheel, set the cam straight up, doesn't really have to be exact, then pull the timing belt up the left side and rotate the cam slightly ccw by hand until the belt falls in a tooth, this will tension the left side of the belt. Slip the belt all the way on and tighten down the tensioner, give it a few rotations and check again. Looking at the engine from the belt side you have to ballpark the timing, just forget it, set the crank to the timing mark on the flywheel and look at the cam, it will be plainly obvious if it is a tooth off, but you can check with your straight edges if you want. If it is off you are already in position to slip the belt back off and do it again.

[Sandwich]

It's a close as I could get with the piddly wrench I had on the crank, overshot or undershot by couple of degrees, couldnt get it spot on. Didnt actually take the belt off, these are just what it looks like now. Still, I think it is 1 tooth out even with it set bang on TDC. Will get a proper wrench on it tomorrow to line up the crank perfectly.

[Oldblueaccord]

1043910440

You put it at TDC at the CRANK first. Its off the mark on your first picture. That will move the cam gear alot you will see.

make sure #1 piston its on compression stroke meaning piston at top and BOTH valves close. air comes out the spark plug hole not the exhaust.

[ShiRen]

Don't turn the engine over by the cam, you need to get a socket on the crank through the fender

I wasn't even suggesting the timing is off earlier, you need to line the timing mark up in the flywheel to know. I swear I spend half the time fiddling the crank on that mark whenever I adjust timing, everything moves by A LOT with a tiny nudge on the crank.

[Sandwich]

Don't turn the engine over by the cam, you need to get a socket on the crank through the fender

I wasn't even suggesting the timing is off earlier, you need to line the timing mark up in the flywheel to know. I swear I spend half the time fiddling the crank on that mark whenever I adjust timing, everything moves by A LOT with a tiny nudge on the crank.

Yeh sorry, got cam and crank mixed up, was moving crank no worries. Okay will persevere and get a proper idea with it lined up perfectly, cheers guys!

[Sandwich]

now correct me if im wrong, but looks like im 1 tooth out! If it managed to run a few hundred miles seemingly fine (change T belt pretty pronto in ownership so cant compare to it being fine) could it have always been like this? or is that very unlikely and its slipped a tooth more recently? theerfore I should be looking at the tensioner? Gonna start the process of changing it a tooth either way, would be good to know about the tensioner condition though (I replaced it, but couldnt torque the bolt officially).

Cheers!

1044110442

[Sandwich]

10443

[ShiRen]

If you haven't done a lot of timing belts its likely you didn't get the left side of the belt tight, just slip the belt off and try again

[Sandwich]

If you haven't done a lot of timing belts its likely you didn't get the left side of the belt tight, just slip the belt off and try again

yep, thats the plan, was my first time doing it.
Just gotta get past the crank bolt again, previous method didnt work so into new territory, might try my new blowtorch.

[ShiRen]

You shouldn't have to remove anything, just loosen the tensioner and slip the belt off the cam. Its in the perfect position now to just move the cam ccw after the belt is off it. Don't move the crank until the belt is in the teeth of the cam gear, then you can rotate the whole thing to work it the rest of the way on the cam if you want to. Take the spark plugs out so you can rotate the engine backwards.

I hope that makes sense, but I have never had luck trying to pull the slack out of the left side with the belt on and untensioned like the book says.

[Sandwich]

You shouldn't have to remove anything, just loosen the tensioner and slip the belt off the cam. Its in the perfect position now to just move the cam ccw after the belt is off it. Don't move the crank until the belt is in the teeth of the cam gear, then you can rotate the whole thing to work it the rest of the way on the cam if you want to. Take the spark plugs out so you can rotate the engine backwards.

I hope that makes sense, but I have never had luck trying to pull the slack out of the left side with the belt on and untensioned like the book says.

Thats a very good point, forgot the tensioner bolt stuck out the lower cover, so I just loosen that and the belt should slide off? How do i retension it if I just loosened that bolt, does tightening it and then tuning engine tension it again? Great tip thanks!

I get what you mean with working the belt on by turning engine backwards.

Cheers.

[ShiRen]

You just loosen the tensioner bolt, do not remove it, slide the belt off the cam, readjust the cam, then work the belt back on the cam gear. At this point the left side of the belt should be tensioned if you turned the cam gear ccw until the belt drops in the first tooth, you can rotate the engine backwards (clockwise) to roll it on or pull the belt over the cam if you are he man, doesn't matter, but now you are ready to tension the left side of the belt. Once the belt is fully on the cam gear the tension of the left side of the belt can't change, just roll the engine over forwards and the slack will come out of the right side of the belt and be taken up by the tensioner, then you can tighten the bolt down. Section 6-20 of the manual says you only need to rotate the engine by 3 teeth on the cam for the tensioner to take up the slack, but its not really critical, you can rotate it 180 degrees or whatever, just rotate it ccw and tighten the bolt, then rotate it ccw to line up the timing mark on the flywheel and check your work. You don't want to rotate it clockwise anymore after the belt is tensioned because of how the tensioner operates.

[Oldblueaccord]

Thats a very good point, forgot the tensioner bolt stuck out the lower cover, so I just loosen that and the belt should slide off? How do i retension it if I just loosened that bolt, does tightening it and then tuning engine tension it again? Great tip thanks!

I get what you mean with working the belt on by turning engine backwards.

Cheers.

https://partsology.com/media/catalog/product/cache/720b44a366e39723bf93303d2d040084/l/a/large-cpw_tbt_tbt206_1_270.jpg

The tensioner bearing is slotted so when you loosen the bolt it gives you the slack you need....not much but enough.

Also double check the crank TDC mark its usually white and the timing mark is red. The auto and manuals can be a bit different.

EDIT: couple pics here on this thread.

https://www.3geez.com/forum/newbie-introductions/91089-help-pinging-after-timing-belt-change.html

[ShiRen]

Good point on the timing mark, mine flywheel doesn't have that it is just degreed out from TDC. I didnt know if you were auto or manual either

[Sandwich]

https://partsology.com/media/catalog/product/cache/720b44a366e39723bf93303d2d040084/l/a/large-cpw_tbt_tbt206_1_270.jpg

The tensioner bearing is slotted so when you loosen the bolt it gives you the slack you need....not much but enough.

Also double check the crank TDC mark its usually white and the timing mark is red. The auto and manuals can be a bit different.

EDIT: couple pics here on this thread.

https://www.3geez.com/forum/newbie-introductions/91089-help-pinging-after-timing-belt-change.html

I'm manual, have seen the red timing mark when turning crank yesterday (a few deg before TDC) although does look faint, may take a toothbrush to it and see if I can make it more visible.

[ShiRen]

If you are set to the TDC mark you don't have to worry about the red line until you set the spark, which I do recommend you do after changing the cam timing, but the stock spark timing is very conservative, like 4deg or something, soooo feel free to set the timing at your own discretion... there is some ponies locked away there.

As long as you aren't lining the crank up on that timing mark, but it doesn't sound like you are.

[Sandwich]

Changed the belt round, and confident with its positioning, turned it a few times and rechecked it on point. To sanity check I've put the lineup photos below.

Tried to start it this morning and it wouldnt, fires and has a hint but otherwise can't (https://photos.app.goo.gl/RHKyghVcJr1QzUjH6). Listened out for fuel pump which sounds interesting (recorded it on link below), my old car's fuel pump didnt sound like this, do your accords? No clue if filters ever been changed so that could be clogged? Any other reasons you can think of? Had battery disconnected for a week or so, although doubt that went flat? https://photos.app.goo.gl/urEWgGJrCCdenVDy6

edit: just tried adjusting the dizzy timing, was initially set to max advance, couldnt start it no matter where I positioned it.

Ty!

1045910460

[Oldblueaccord]

Id still splash a gallon of gas in the tank.

TDC looks great Generally the car will start where ever the EDIT distributor timing(spark) is set on Hondas since the bolts limit its movement.

It sounds like you have spark and it wants to start. Sounds like its got good compression also.

Double check the spark plug wire/coil wire and the ground on the valve cover. You might have knocked one around while working on the car.

[Sandwich]

Yeh gonna put some more time to it, mate said it may be down to dizzy timing, but if you say it should run for any position, and it didnt run for either max or the midpoint then reckon its not that.
Will have a proper look at spark plug wires, coil etc. Cheers :)

[AWH]

I applaud you for not giving up yet and really hope you get it to run. It ran before so should be a minor thing I figure. But minor things can be the hardest to track down.Keep us posted on results. Sorry for not being more helpful.

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[Sandwich]

I applaud you for not giving up yet and really hope you get it to run. It ran before so should be a minor thing I figure. But minor things can be the hardest to track down.Keep us posted on results. Sorry for not being more helpful.

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Cheers AWH, I wish I had an option! got two close by goals for this car... drive it home to mum by Christmas, so shes knows i didnt buy a pile of scrap!
Drive it to the alps 2021 for skiing, gotta survive the long journey.

Cheers for yours and everyone's help, you're all getting me there bit by bit!

[Sandwich]

Never had the ground connected before I now realise, still connecting it didnt solve it :( confident spark leads are on the right way. Petrol not a bad idea tbf, will look to get some.
could it be radio condenser? or any of the primary lead stuff. didnt really touch much when I changed belt position, and had battery disconnected so dunno how I've done this...

Any other suggestions? I took the alternator belt off so could I have messed with something on there?
Cheers :)

edit: found this post which is similar problem https://www.3geez.com/forum/3geez-accords/75852-88-accord-lxi-cranks-but-no-start.html
describes same scenario as I had where it wouldnt like to start warm unless I gave it a few mins.

A lot of talk on this issue about TW sensor, gonna give it a test aswell.

[Oldblueaccord]

Anyone else got any wisdom they could share?

I've since bought a new coil, distributor cap, spark plugs, plug leads & rotor. Fingers crossed its one of those!

I wanted to double check that you changed out the cap and rotor and ever thing is pretty new. Changing the fuel filter isnt a bad idea either.

[Sandwich]

yeh cap and rotor changed, fuel filter seems like a possibility, another possible direction was dying starter, have had it recently where car is harder and harder to start without a little help on throttle. could be a whole host of reasons for that tbh.

[ShiRen]

If it is trying to fire at this point have you given it a shot of starting fluid to see if you can keep it running once it starts?

[Sandwich]

If it is trying to fire at this point have you given it a shot of starting fluid to see if you can keep it running once it starts?

Haven't, is that a specific fluid or will some WD40 work? (all I got to hand). I imagine you spray it in the spark hole right.

[ShiRen]

Not wd40 but carb cleaner (not brake cleaner) works, just spray it in the throttle body. Don't overdo it because if it backfires you are going to have a fire, but I doubt it will unless you somehow have the timing 180 out

[Sandwich]

Not wd40 but carb cleaner (not brake cleaner) works, just spray it in the throttle body. Don't overdo it because if it backfires you are going to have a fire, but I doubt it will unless you somehow have the timing 180 out

is it worth setting timing full retard to increase compression/time to spark?

[ShiRen]

You can try it if you want

[Sandwich]

So I checked the fuel system and ran the 'Fuel Pump Inspection' test (pg 12-50), bob's your uncle, it seems.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/mniVzWVV1hD9h5N3A

Nothing came out of fuel pressure reg, looking for at least 230ml petrol, nothing came so according to manual its gonna be:
fuel pump
fuel filter
fuel line
pressure reg

In order to run the test I relieved fuel pressure at the filter, petrol did flow out, makes me think its fuel filter or regulator then, or a downstream pipe. Filter seems top of list given its a maintenance item.

Any further thoughts?

[AWH]

If you're sure there's actual petrol in the tank, filter and regulator are first to replace now. Then try again. Hopefully on your way to have it start at least. Let us know. Carb cleaner test could easily confirm if it will start when fueled. So would try this test first

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[Oldblueaccord]

im starting to suspect your tank is rusty or possible fuel line corrosion. you have pretty low miles meaning the car sat alot unused.

The pumps under a small round hatch back on car as well as the fuel sender under a separate hatch. There pretty easy to pull and peak in there. The metal edges are very very sharp just a warning.

[Sandwich]

Yeh, Im suspecting the same I think, car on 130k granted but sat for the last 13 years in storage before I bought it...

Cheers for the warning, gonna try the gauge-side hole and see if I can fix the hanger while I'm at it, will be back with photos. Maybe I shoulda bought two filters :D

[ShiRen]

I'm not sure about parts availability over the pond, but over here tanks are pretty darn cheap still, so if you look down in it and its real bad I would not be afraid to write it off and order a new tank. It is very likely this is a big part of your issues, if not the root cause.

[gcovarrubias412]

I’m having a similar issue with my 94 Civic. If the idles are unstable and the car gets jerky under load, i think it might be your IACV. Try disconnecting it and go for a drive and see if it still jerks.

You’ll get a CEL, but that shouldnt be a problem as long as you don’t leave it that way for too long.

[ShiRen]

I’m having a similar issue with my 94 Civic. If the idles are unstable and the car gets jerky under load, i think it might be your IACV. Try disconnecting it and go for a drive and see if it still jerks.

You’ll get a CEL, but that shouldnt be a problem as long as you don’t leave it that way for too long.

I'm sorry, but PGMFI went a long way between 89 to 94. The two are hardly related.
A stuck IACV is an extremely common problem on later cars, you should just clean it as preventative maintenance if you take one in.
I think his problem goes a lot deeper than an idle control valve, that is what we are looking into.

[Sandwich]

I'm not sure about parts availability over the pond, but over here tanks are pretty darn cheap still, so if you look down in it and its real bad I would not be afraid to write it off and order a new tank. It is very likely this is a big part of your issues, if not the root cause.

So I got the fuel gauge sender out, looks quite manky, cleaned a decent bit of dirt/rust off it. The connection was gone so need a new one too.

I'm a bit of a tit, doesnt look like much fuel in there either, likely explains why it won't start I reckon, gonna fill and find out if its still playing up. In my defence the gauge was off :D

How does the tank look to your professional eyes? seems some black gunk on the sides, and general rusty vibe, no clue how bad that is for a petrol tank. Vid: https://photos.app.goo.gl/vdg9tQfuxs3QHjGS6

[Oldblueaccord]

So I got the fuel gauge sender out, looks quite manky, cleaned a decent bit of dirt/rust off it. The connection was gone so need a new one too.

I'm a bit of a tit, doesnt look like much fuel in there either, likely explains why it won't start I reckon, gonna fill and find out if its still playing up. In my defence the gauge was off :D

How does the tank look to your professional eyes? seems some black gunk on the sides, and general rusty vibe, no clue how bad that is for a petrol tank. Vid: https://photos.app.goo.gl/vdg9tQfuxs3QHjGS6


Well mate.....YOUR OUTTA GAZZZ. :deal: or petrol in your case.

And yes thats very rusty. It really wont every run well consistently without a new clean gas tank and probably new fuel pump set up. As you can see from mine it should be all shiney galvanized metal.

EDIT: https://www.3geez.com/forum/3geez-accords/148306-fuel-pump-strainer-sock.html#post1221892

I left two vids on this post.

[AWH]

[emoji16] [emoji28][emoji38].
Wouldn't that be nice if that solves the no start [emoji12]. Try petrol in first, replace fuelfilter, and see what happens. Go from there, google diy tank cleaning, or get another one.
Curious now what happens [emoji848][emoji6].

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[ShiRen]

I have cleaned smaller gas tanks out by putting gravel in them and shaking them around. I won't say it is long term, but it works. Don't try to put a tank liner in it unless you like not having fun, or you like breathing harmful chemicals.
If you were American I would tell you to fill it with gravel, wrap it in an old rug, tie it behind an atv and take it yard skiing.
I would just put a gas tank on your shopping list lol, but a dirty tank won't stop you from getting it running, at least for some time. Maybe grab a second fuel filter for later.

[Sandwich]

Yeh gonna do some shopping for tank repairing/coating stuff or ultimately a new one, might be my christmas present this year :D
Gravel dragging sounds great fun, not sure if I could get away with that over here though hahah.

The gauge sender units are out of stock on RockAuto, anyone seen them elsewhere? Would be nice to know my fuel level I realise.

Got some petrol will update when I give it the next start.

[Oldblueaccord]

If you change the fuel filter that would help too. All those little rust bits are clogging everything.

Sender doesnt seem to be available right now.

[Sandwich]

Gave it a few runs round the block at lunchtime, starts and idles well, pulls nicely, nice to see how these engines are meant to be!

Problem persists however, as it warmed up. Also I get a 'screech' just after changing gear. Both can be seen in these vids: https://photos.app.goo.gl/N75CKJGnrPyWqBSx8

Cant tell if the screech is tyre spin from a heavy foot (can't feel much in steering wheel), or something else, open to any suggestions.

Fuel filter on way, hopefully will fit that and it will alleviate problems.

Thanks for all your help guys!

[ShiRen]

I am not able to watch the video at work, but I would suspect you are hearing the belts slip. I have to get mine pretty darn tight before they stop making noise.

[Oldblueaccord]

Gave it a few runs round the block at lunchtime, starts and idles well, pulls nicely, nice to see how these engines are meant to be!

Problem persists however, as it warmed up. Also I get a 'screech' just after changing gear. Both can be seen in these vids: https://photos.app.goo.gl/N75CKJGnrPyWqBSx8

Cant tell if the screech is tyre spin from a heavy foot (can't feel much in steering wheel), or something else, open to any suggestions.

Fuel filter on way, hopefully will fit that and it will alleviate problems.

Thanks for all your help guys!

Well its my birthday and I got coffee in bed and your car running. Pretty good day.

I think it runs great for running it dry and rust in the tank! I seen them two girls checking you out at the stop sign.!

Id leave the timing where its at I didnt hear it pinging. Double check your timing belt tension sometime and let it roll.

Belt squeek is probably from a low battery needing a heavy charge and I think your clutch seems to hang a little between shifts which is typical on a car that sits.

Good day otherwise.

[gcovarrubias412]

I'm sorry, but PGMFI went a long way between 89 to 94. The two are hardly related.
A stuck IACV is an extremely common problem on later cars, you should just clean it as preventative maintenance if you take one in.
I think his problem goes a lot deeper than an idle control valve, that is what we are looking into.

I just saw the videos he posted. Seems like his issue is exactly the same as mine. Although i dont think my car smokes like his.

I’m almost sure its the IACV. I disconnected mine and the problem went away. I’m hoping to replace it soon and see the difference so I can report back here to see if it fixed it.

[Sandwich]

Well its my birthday and I got coffee in bed and your car running. Pretty good day.

I think it runs great for running it dry and rust in the tank! I seen them two girls checking you out at the stop sign.!

Id leave the timing where its at I didnt hear it pinging. Double check your timing belt tension sometime and let it roll.

Belt squeek is probably from a low battery needing a heavy charge and I think your clutch seems to hang a little between shifts which is typical on a car that sits.

Good day otherwise.

Happy Birthday Blue! :birthday: fingers crossed this fuel filter sorts it out and both of us can rest easy :D

I'll see what messing with the IACV does in the meantime, filter not gonna come until Friday/Saturday and anxious not to waste any time, I wanna drive this thing a couple hours home home this weekend, taking the train would be admitting failure :lol:

[Oldblueaccord]

Happy Birthday Blue! :birthday: fingers crossed this fuel filter sorts it out and both of us can rest easy :D

I'll see what messing with the IACV does in the meantime, filter not gonna come until Friday/Saturday and anxious not to waste any time, I wanna drive this thing a couple hours home home this weekend, taking the train would be admitting failure :lol:

Thanks for the Birthday wishes.

I would wear a really good pair of shoes on that trip.....:tongue:

[Sandwich]

So I was fiddling and noticed this on the floor, when I hadnt noticed it previously, it hasn't pinged off anywhere has it? looks more like a house electrical thingy but wanna be sure I havent knocked it off. Cheers.
10464

[AWH]

450 Volts [emoji780][emoji28]. Not car related.

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[ShiRen]

Those are nice little clips, essentially a wire nut... still not something you permanently splice wires with.
Its not factory, bit you now may have a bare wire under your dash somewhere

[Sandwich]

Those are nice little clips, essentially a wire nut... still not something you permanently splice wires with.
Its not factory, bit you now may have a bare wire under your dash somewhere

Yeh will have a good look see if anythings bare, was when I was trying fiddle with the ICM. Live in flats though so could be anyones crap equally haha.

[Sandwich]

Replaced the fuel filter, can't work it out...

My current feeling is it's improved but not fixed. The car drives well, pulls nicely, yet I still get the cutting of power, now centered around the low revs. I gave it a few runs round the block and it suffers most when pulling off, just nothing happens. The revs dip and dance around low before eventually recovering. It caused the car to stall a couple of times. In the last video you can see it idle nicely, suffer at the beginning but then hold revs really nicely. The vids are a few mins but show how it occurs at low revs really well.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1WWYcu5jYgCmy8Gb6

Still need to set dizzy timing, and tension alternator belt, but doubt these will fix it. Not sure...

My thoughts, maybe check the fuel pump sock? with the state of the petrol tank maybe thats partially 'blocked' too. or somewhere else in the fuel system,
Something electric? a sensor, IACV? or similar, something causing the engine not to hold revs well at low revs.
Time? gonna drive it some more, see if it sorts itself out, who knows, it was idling and holding revs nicely when I got home.
Fucked? is the engine itself just fucked

Cheers.

[Oldblueaccord]

Im more thinking it needs a good "Italian tune up" my dear Sicilian Grandma wold say....floor board it up a big hill.

Thats the problem with rust it comes and goes and does all kinda things one not the same as the other. There is no solution that dissolves it so its probably stuck in you injectors.

[ShiRen]

I really wish I could watch your videos at work... Is the engine out of open loop mode? If it does this in open loop then this is either air, spark, or fuel related. Not a sensor, but maybe something vacuum-mechanical.
If you say it smooths out I am kind of assuming its sorting itself out once its in closed loop.

[AWH]

Idee surge can be caused by several things. Vacuum leak. Air in cooling system. FITV screw came up. IACV bad.

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[Sandwich]

Im more thinking it needs a good "Italian tune up" my dear Sicilian Grandma wold say....floor board it up a big hill.

Thats the problem with rust it comes and goes and does all kinda things one not the same as the other. There is no solution that dissolves it so its probably stuck in you injectors.

What're your thoughts on some injector/fuel system cleaner, somethign like BG 44K? I know injectors arent cheap and wanna avoid taking them out I reckon. I don't wanna throw money at this but im stumped!

[ShiRen]

You need something that has a high anti-oxidant content and probably methanol. I have no idea what is available to you, but truth is fuel injector cleaner does jack squat unless youre putting it in a motorcycle, and I don't recommend running your tank below half if youre trying not to suck up junk. Soo 2 cans?

[Sandwich]

I really wish I could watch your videos at work... Is the engine out of open loop mode? If it does this in open loop then this is either air, spark, or fuel related. Not a sensor, but maybe something vacuum-mechanical.
If you say it smooths out I am kind of assuming its sorting itself out once its in closed loop.

How can I tell if it's open loop? the problem seems to occur after a run round the block or so, and then continues for the periods I've been driving it. Can open loop be characterised by the idle position? by the time I got home, after driving for 20-30 mins, it was still having problems but otherwise driving and idling nicely. Sorry not very good with systems, is closed or open first? Cheers.

[AWH]

You mean thermostat open loop [emoji780] Engine starts with thermostat closed to get the engine warmed up as quickly as possible. Don't think you can tell by driving if thermostat is open or closed.

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[Sandwich]

Okay gave it some more running, more fuel, and an italian tune on the motorway, things are better, definitely. In fact seems problem is almost gone. Only experienced it right at high revs 5k rpm, otherwise driving well. Got some bg44k which Im gonna try and top up the fuel to max before I aim to drive to London this evening.

As for dizzy timing, am I correct you look for red mark with the vac tubes disconnected, and the tubes and diaphragm holes all plugged? Got TDC lining up with 0' on the gun, but couldnt find the red mark and seemed to move the other way to where I think the red mark is. (with flywheel facing with TDC, red mark is closer to me right?, the way the engine is spinning, but turning the dial on gun, moves it back the way its spinning.)

Cheers

[Sandwich]

Found the timing mark, lined it up, drove it 3 hours back to London. She's sorted boys. Thanks for all your help!

Now to clean the hell out of that fuel tank.

EDIT: for anyone reading this, it was the fuel filter replacement that fixed it. The symptoms were very similar to issues with spark and air, which can be fixed by replacing dizzy cap, rotor, spark plugs, leads, coil & ICM, and also checking for vac leaks around the intake manifold. My fuel tank had sat for 13 years along with the rest of the car before I bought and so was full of junk, that 800-1k miles later clogged the filter and started causing problems.

[Oldblueaccord]

Very very Good!