Fuel pump strainer/sock

[lx 1986]

fuel pump strainer/sock

Been having problems with my car still. Had a new delphi pump put in back in Jan and now I'm wondering if that pump was any good. I've been having problems starting and running the car ever since.

I was looking at Eric the Car Guy on youtube and he says Honda pumps very seldom go out. I had the new pump put in because I was having a hard time starting the car. I looked at my old pump and noticed the sock is black. I was wondering if this was the only thing that was wrong with it. I'd like to clean it to save money and to, I don't know if I can find a replacement for it. Does anyone know where I could find a sock for the OEM fuel pump for a 86 Honda Accord LX with a carb. Or is there a way I could clean it. Thanks

[Dr_Snooz]

Is the tank rusting? If so, you'll continue having problems until you replace it.

[Oldblueaccord]

I just bought a new sock for the EFI pump a month ago off rockauto I would think the carb ones would be still available.

[lx 1986]

Dr Snooze

I don't know if there's rust I didn't put the pump in. The mechanic didn't say there was any. I believe the pump was the original. It still works. I was thinking low pressure is due to the sock being so dirty.

[lx 1986]

Oldblueaccord

I looked at the socks at rockauto but I didn't know if the sock has to be the exact same configueration as the OEM. They have the one that fits the Delphi but it's a different shape. Do you know if I can use a different shape one or does the shape matter at all?

[ShiRen]

Arguably the only thing that matters is the end that slips over the pump inlet

[Oldblueaccord]

lx 1986

yeah I noticed that too. On my EFI gas tank there is a little well that is tacked into the tank to help with fuel slosh and the sock lays down in it. So the angle of the sock fitting I felt was critical to work correctly. it reminded me of a butter dish.

I never looked into a carb tank to see if there is anything in there.

[lx 1986]

ShiRen and Oldblueaccord

I noticed the end of the pump on the OEM has a small piece of plastic that's part of the pump. It holds the sock on. There's a notch on the neck of the ring of the sock which that piece fits in, I guess to hold it in place. The sock is a semi triangle shape.

The Delphi has a round sock and it appears to just be pushed on. It has no notch.

I 've been trying to clean OEM sock with carb cleaner. Not sure if the sock is black normally or not. Very little stuff has come out of it.

Oldblueaccord

I have seen what your tank looks like inside I haven't seen the inside of mines yet. That's why I thought maybe mines needed a certain shape like yours.

[Oldblueaccord]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C12FglV2q4E


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXsS0oa_Sgk

[lx 1986]

Oldblueaccord

Thanks for sending me the videos. If there from youtube I think that's how I know what your sock looks like and what the inside of your tank looks like. I don't think my tank has that tub inside because the sock is different and the OEM has a semi-rectangle sock and the Delphi has a round sock.

The Delphi pump seems to be working off and on. Sometimes I can hear the pump and other times I hear nothing. Makes me feel like I'm going crazy. Since I'm doing this by myself I have the back seat down and have the pump exposed so can hear it now. I do notice when the gas gauge moves slowly up like it's not building enough pressure it has a hard time starting and then there are times when the gauge moves up with no problem. When I can get the car started the site glass in the carb appears to have nothing in it or a little less than half full when I turn the key. Sometimes When I step on the gas and it does start the site glass in the carb fills up to almost the top of the glass. When I 1st noticed this was when I had the Delphi put in right before I had the new carb put in. I didn't worry about it because the mechanic was thinking at the time it was the carb that was causing the no start problem.

When I had the carb replaced the site glass was always full and I couldn't get it to adjust down and noticed that the venturi was shooting gas out when the car was idling and that's when I started having problems with the car stalling when I had to brake when I come to a stop sign or signal. I had the old carb put back on. Still having problems with all of this. The only thing both carbs have in common is the Delphi fuel pump. Maybe I just got a bad pump. I bought it from Autozone in Jan. I'm going to test electrical 1st and then go from there.

[ShiRen]

The pump is ran on a pulse from the tach, so it might be hard to hear.

I can tell you for a fact that the replacement carb has a bad oring on the needle and seat, the yellow screw right above the fuel line. Probably the bottom oring if gas isnt seeping from the top of the screw. You can replace it if you take the top of the carb off and screw it all the way down, but its a little tricky finding a fuel resistant oring in that size. Other than that the new carb is probably good... still this is the shit they give you nowadays when you go reman.

[Oldblueaccord]

Oldblueaccord

Thanks for sending me the videos. If there from youtube I think that's how I know what your sock looks like and what the inside of your tank looks like. I don't think my tank has that tub inside because the sock is different and the OEM has a semi-rectangle sock and the Delphi has a round sock.

The Delphi pump seems to be working off and on. Sometimes I can hear the pump and other times I hear nothing. Makes me feel like I'm going crazy. Since I'm doing this by myself I have the back seat down and have the pump exposed so can hear it now. I do notice when the gas gauge moves slowly up like it's not building enough pressure it has a hard time starting and then there are times when the gauge moves up with no problem. When I can get the car started the site glass in the carb appears to have nothing in it or a little less than half full when I turn the key. Sometimes When I step on the gas and it does start the site glass in the carb fills up to almost the top of the glass. When I 1st noticed this was when I had the Delphi put in right before I had the new carb put in. I didn't worry about it because the mechanic was thinking at the time it was the carb that was causing the no start problem.

When I had the carb replaced the site glass was always full and I couldn't get it to adjust down and noticed that the venturi was shooting gas out when the car was idling and that's when I started having problems with the car stalling when I had to brake when I come to a stop sign or signal. I had the old carb put back on. Still having problems with all of this. The only thing both carbs have in common is the Delphi fuel pump. Maybe I just got a bad pump. I bought it from Autozone in Jan. I'm going to test electrical 1st and then go from there.


on carbs you only need like 3 psi I wouldnt be surprised the fuel pressure is way higher than that.

EDIT: also another thing to try is leave your gas cap loose so it vents the tank correctly and the pump can pull fuel.

[lx 1986]

Oldblueaccord and ShiRen

Before I had Delphi put in only problem was cold starting with old carb on. Site glass was never full and never had problems braking and car stalling at stop signs. Once car started I could drive it all over the place.

I'm leaning towards new bad fuel pump. Otherwise I can't figure out why both carbs site glasses would be full and can't be adjusted and fuel is leaking through the venturis. And both have the car stalling when I have to stop at a sign or signal.

The maximum psi on the Delphi is supposed to be 3.

It seems that the pressure is more when car is running and as far as the pump working when starting I only hear it sometimes and it can't put any gas in the carb even if I cycle the key several times this happens off and on. Seems like no pressure sometimes and 2 much at other times.

[lx 1986]

Checked electrical today. Starting battery voltage was about 12.7. I hooked negative cable to battery and ran a line to pump negative and got a reading of 0.01 on multimeter at 200m dcv. Positive side reading was 9.7-8.7 dcv volts with key in the ON Position.

I noticed there was white looking paste in the back and all inside of the connector. Could this be lowering my battery voltage? It looks like stuff that's packed in the back of some connectors on my car. Does anyone know what that stuff is? If the white stuff is not a problem where should I start looking for problem of low voltage?

I had relay changed already, ignition switch is good, had mechanic clean out connections on fuse box. Could my coil be the problem? Anyone else had this problem?

[Oldblueaccord]

Checked electrical today. Starting battery voltage was about 12.7. I hooked negative cable to battery and ran a line to pump negative and got a reading of 0.01 on multimeter at 200m dcv. Positive side reading was 9.7-8.7 dcv volts with key in the ON Position.

I noticed there was white looking paste in the back and all inside of the connector. Could this be lowering my battery voltage? It looks like stuff that's packed in the back of some connectors on my car. Does anyone know what that stuff is? If the white stuff is not a problem where should I start looking for problem of low voltage?

I had relay changed already, ignition switch is good, had mechanic clean out connections on fuse box. Could my coil be the problem? Anyone else had this problem?


12.7 VDC is good.

9.7 VDC is not its too low. I would go thru the wires esp by the relay and see if its seated properly. I am thinking its on the back of the in cabin fuse box maybe? You might pull the fuse box down and check it over real well for connections or spots where something has gotten to hot and now you have a bad connection. The white paste your seeing is dielectric grease to keep corrosion out of the connector.

Reason I mentioned the pressure is the needle and seat "hold back" the pump pressure so if its 5 or 6psi instead of 3 psi you would see what your seeing over filled fuel bowl and fuel popping out the top of the carb sometimes.

Alos check in the carb section about loose venturi and a few other typical problems with these carbs.

[lx 1986]

Oldblueaccord

Thanks for the reply. I pulled the the newer relay (WVE brand) and opened it up to see if anything was wrong with it. I wanted to compare it to the OEM to. OEM is more well made.

I decided to put OEM back in to run test again. This is what I got:

Negitive - 0.00
(meter set to 200m DCV) ignition switch not in ON position

Positive - 11.07-11.87
(meter set to 20v DCV with ignition in ON position.

Will the dielectric grease stop the connector from conducting electricity. Reason I asked is because it's all on the inside of the connector. When I see videos on replacing the pump no one has any grease on theirs or puts any on.

As for the pump it's still fill up the carb like before. I think you might be right about it putting out to much pressure. I noticed the hose, (mines only has one) the clamp on it is loose. I'm going to put aother clamp on it. Could this be a place where I'm getting a vacuum leak?

[Oldblueaccord]

Yes one volt off is much better. The grease is supposed to pass electricity but maybe age and dirt is adding in resistance.

Usually to much pressure is just the pump made incorrectly for the application. I dont have a carb Honda car so this is a guess but usually there is a return line to relieve/regulate the pressure make sure its not pinched anywhere by a clamp or a bracket. Also make sure your fuel filter is clean new and no restrictions there also.

On performance type carb set ups it customary to add in a "return" style pressure regulator before the carb to be able to adjust the pressure where you want it.

Im not sure where on your car you could test the pressure the EFI setups have a place onto of the filter.

Also like Shiren said maybe the carb adjustment the O-ring is shot and your not getting the adjustment your wanting.

[lx 1986]

Oldblueaccord

Thanks for the info on the paste. I got the car started today. To clarify my pump has only one hose not the customary 2. The mechanic told me it was a single feed pump.

My car I guess is to old and there is no shrader valve. The gas line from the carb is plugged into a filter and there is another gas line plugged into the other side of the filter that goes to the tank. So what I'm dealing with is just a hose opening no valve of any kind. Do you know if a gauge has a fitting for just a hose to check the pressure? I'm hoping your right about the pressure being to high and it's not the o-ring on the carb.

[Oldblueaccord]

I think you can rent fuel pressure kits from auto parts stores.

Since you dealing with pretty low pressure I would make your own with a gauge, a brass T and some barb fittings.

I would check and make sure clamps are on all hose junctions but that usually just effects the suction side of a pump.

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/spectre-fuel-pressure-gauge-w-fitting-59013/22906125-p?c3ch=PLA&c3nid=22906125-P&adtype=pla&product_channel=online&store_code=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9taywKma7QIVBo-GCh0CcgA7EAQYBCABEgJwNfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

heres one from Advanced. I dunno if I would trust a cheap plastic gauge with gasoline.

[ShiRen]

It might be pretty hard to get a reading from 3psi... Its so little you are almost definitely getting enough or none at all.
I would say the best fuel pressure test would be to unhook the fuel line from the carb and run it into a bottle. You should get so much fuel per second if you really want to measure it and do math, but you have to actually see it and time it. It should carry enough fuel to fill the float bowl in just a few seconds, thats the important part.
Imo you are way too hung up on the fuel pressure. As long as you don't have any blockages in the line, bad filter, etc, and you test the pump with 12v you have done more than enough to assure you are getting enough fuel for the carb. Its not unheard of for the pump to go bad, but it wouldn't fill the float bowl and spill out the venturis. You need to assure your carb is in working order. The needle and seat should not leak and the venturis should not be able to move if you wiggle them with your finger. If you need to tighten the venturis there are yellow flat head screws on the left side of the carb.

[lx 1986]

ShiRen

The reason I did the tests was to see if I was having an electrical problem. I could get the car started once in a while and could hear the pump working and then not hear anything. Because I put the OEM relay back in now I can hear the pump running and the car starts. So now I know the pump is getting power.

As far as the pressure is concerned. My thought is I never had this problem before until I had the Delphi put in Jan 2020. The mechanic said it was the carb that was causing the crank no start problem. I had the OEM pump removed and the Delphi put in right before I had the carb replaced thinking it would help make the car run better with a new carb. My OEM pump never had this pressure problem with the old carb just a crank no start. Turned out to be the dizzy was the problem.

When I 1st noticed the high level in the site glass was the day after I had Delphi put in. I didn't think anything of it because I was getting new carb put on. I just thought is was the problem with the carb and once it was replaced problem solved. Had new carb put on and problem wasn't solved. Couldn't adjust gas level down at all. Had new carb removed and had old one put back on. I have to have rpms set up higher so I can drive it and car gets hot. Still having problem but I can adjust the gas some with the old carb. Can't believe I would have the same problem with both carbs. I checked the venturis there not loose.

I understand what your saying if the pump wasn't working right there would be little to no pressure.

But if there was to much pressure the condition that I'm describing would be happening. Take a look at this video, his is for a Edlbrock carb. I have a Keihin 2bbl. My problem is similar. Tell me what you think. Thanks for helping me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maPgobDE_1E

[Dr_Snooz]

I'd borrow a pressure tester from Autozone. My tester from Harbor Freight will register down to 1 psi. It may not be very accurate, but it's better than guessing, right? Verify both pressure and flow according to the Honda manual (starting on p. 11-44) and eliminate the guesswork. If the pressure is too high, install an adjustable regulator like the guy in the video.

[lx 1986]

Money is real tight right now. I was thinking that I would put the OEM pump back in & return the Delphi. The return has to be done at the store. I don't have a ride to the store so I thought if I put the OEM back in I could also see if the problem was with the DELPHI for sure. It's still under warranty until January 2021. I really can't afford to spend extra money to buy a regulator if it turns out to be a bad pump or the carb rebuild kit if I can avoid it. It would also tell me if I'm having a problem with the seat & needle in the carb if the same symptoms happen.

I tried to start the car the other morning & heard the pump. It put some gas in the carb & it wouldn't start. I tried to start it again turned the key & heard nothing. I checked the site glass & there was a little more gas in there. I cycled the key 2 more times & it started. It ran for a few minutes & than died. I got it running. And now it's not running again today. It seems like it wants to run off and on sporadically and pressure is erratic.

Thanks for the suggestions DrSnooze about the regulator. Oldblueaccord thanks for the link you sent. Thanks ShiRen for your input about the carb. I'll update what the results are when I put OEM back in. I'm waiting for a new gasket for the OEM so I can reinstall it.

[ShiRen]

I definitely don't think you should buy a regulator for the stock system, that would be a moderately expensive bandaid fix and might not work well with the pump being rpm regulated. I hope the oem does something, this is strange?
In the meantime, did you check the venturis to make sure they are tight? Nothing on the carb is leaking? I actually cracked my carb one time, that was cool, it was on the back side along the accelerator pump.

[lx 1986]

ShiRen

What's strange is the problem is happening with both carbs same symptoms. Only thing in common is the pump. I checked venturis on both carbs and there not loose on either. I can't find any leaks, gas or vacuum lines. I'm hoping the car will start when I put the OEM back in and problem solved but that's wishful thinking on my part. If it turns out to be carb problem from what your saying about that I would have to buy a rebuild kit just to get the o-rings if there hard to find. Thanks for the help really appreciate it. I'll post back the results when I change the pump out.

[ShiRen]

Im thinking surely the gas can't get siphoned back up the fuel line even if the o rings are bad

[Oldblueaccord]

ShiRen

What's strange is the problem is happening with both carbs same symptoms. Only thing in common is the pump. I checked venturis on both carbs and there not loose on either. I can't find any leaks, gas or vacuum lines. I'm hoping the car will start when I put the OEM back in and problem solved but that's wishful thinking on my part. If it turns out to be carb problem from what your saying about that I would have to buy a rebuild kit just to get the o-rings if there hard to find. Thanks for the help really appreciate it. I'll post back the results when I change the pump out.

Remember try leaving he gas cap loose too.

[Dr_Snooz]

Out of curiosity, what are you turning in your attempts to change the fuel level in the carb bowls? Because if you're adjusting the right ones, you should have turned that car into a yard ornament long ago.

A couple things to note:

- Never touch the float adjustment on these carbs unless it is absolutely necessary and you absolutely know what you're doing. Pretty much if the car runs at all, then the floats are probably adjusted correctly. If you're just making random turns to see what happens, you're begging for trouble.
- Be more systematic in your troubleshooting. The manual has very specific tests for every component in the car, and lengthy flow charts to guide you to the right components to test. If you want to test the fuel pump, go to p. 11-42 in the manual (download it for free from the link in my sig) and do the tests it specifies. If you don't have a tester, borrow one from Autozone (it's free). If the pump tests out good, then cross it off your list and move on. You're only going to confuse yourself by making up your own tests and theorizing.
- If money is tight, always test everything. Don't theorize or speculate. Test. If you think you have low fuel pressure, then test the pump. The manual tells you exactly what the pressure should be and exactly how to find out what your pressure is.
- Replace only the things that are actually out of spec. If money is tight, parts are next to free on Rock Auto. If money is even tighter than that, junkyard parts are cheaper still. If money is even tighter than that, learn to jury rig, but make sure you test properly so you know what to replace when money finally comes in again. If you don't have the tools, then buy, borrow or rent them. Autozone loans out specialty tools. Some public libraries let you check out tools. Invite a buddy over who has tools. Tell him you'll give him a nice COVID mask, or whatever it is people offer each other for favors now.
- Diagnose problems based on symptoms. So far, I know you have stalling at stops, poor braking and overheating. None of those symptoms points to a fuel pump, strainer sock or a float adjustment, so look elsewhere.

Tell us what your symptoms are. What is wrong with the braking? What is happening when it overheats? How is it stalling at stops?

[Oldblueaccord]

Snooze Im going with the OG poster on this one I think he is whittling at it the correct way, frustrating as it might be be, with crappy aftermarket parts and all.

[lx 1986]

DrSnooze

I'm turning the screw that's usually painted yellow. That's on top of the carb. Don't worry I adjusted it back to where it was originally on both carbs. Because there was little to no change on either carb.

Symptoms are : float level is to high & can't adjust it when warm up or idling, main venturis on both new & old carbs are streaming gas out of them. Idle has to be set higher so car won't stall which makes car hotter I also have a small leak in heater core I haven't bought the stop leak yet. Only problem with braking is if idle is set to normal & car will die or try to die depending on where idle is set when making stops at signals/signs. When cold start I turn key to ON carb fills to bottom of site glass. I can hear fuel pump, sometimes I hear nothing. Sometimes I don't see anything in the glass. Sometimes glass will have some gas at the lowest level of the glass. Step on gas to the floor once & release peddle slowly. Start car & it cranks no start. Sometimes it starts. Sometimes I cycle key off & on & car will start. I assume pump has built up enough pressure. If car starts site glass will be full.

Reason I tested fuel pump voltage was to see if I was getting voltage all the time. I could hear pump & other times heard nothing. When I took out WVE relay & put OEM back in I got a normal voltage reading. As opposed to abnormal with the WVE. This told me WVE I bought was a piece of junk from rock auto. A mechanic told me this was the problem.

Everything would be easy if I had a car. I'm high risk for virus so public transportation isn't an option. I live in LA County which is the worst for the virus in CA. Closest auto store is 1 & 1/2 cities away. I would have to walk. I'm disabled, I have a foot injury. Closest jy is several cities away. I know I could get tools at auto store for free but it does me no good if I can't get there. I don't have anyone who does work on their own cars either.

If I change Delphi out & put OEM back in I'll find out if the problems go away while my car is sitting in my driveway. It will at least tell me if it's the pump or carb.

You say to look elsewhere? Like where?

Thanks

[lx 1986]

Oldblueaccord

Thanks for your support. Makes me feel like I'm not doing this for nothing. This has been the only problem I've had with my car that wasn't easily solved. Yes it's very frustrating.

When I'm given lemons I don't throw them out I make lemonade.

[ShiRen]

Turning the float screw often leads to it leaking, thats why he advises against it. Ofc you have to turn it if your float level is whack, but the orings will break at some point, often the first time you go to turn it.

[lx 1986]

ShiRen

I only touched screw because gas was high & that's the only way to do it. Well it didn't do anything for the new carb & old carb very little. To much gas in both new & old carb. Hard to believe both carbs are bad but not impossible.

Before I had the Delphi put in I didn't have this problem with gas level with the OEM pump & old carb.
I'm trying to narrow the problem down to pump or carb at this point.


Not sure what you mean by this.

"Im thinking surely the gas can't get siphoned back up the fuel line even if the o rings are bad"

[ShiRen]

I don't blame you for moving the float, but those orings are probably broke now and there is high chance the orings on it did not get replaced when your new one was remanned, I doubt neither one is a bad carb, just a shot oring.

All I meant by that is I don't think gas could be being siphoned out of the float bowl leaving you with an empty bowl and a hard to start car in the morning. The needle and seat is too high to reach the gas Id think. The only way for gas to leave the bowl is evaporation if you left it sit for a month, or a leak out the side like the sight glass seal or the plate below it allowing access to the jets. I don't know if that is even on the right track though.

[lx 1986]

ShiRen

Thanks for explaining what you said.

I have a question. Does the relay have anything to do with how much gas goes into the carb or does it just signal the pump to start.

[ShiRen]

Sort of, it pulses off the tach signal, so unless the relay is stuck on I don't think it could cause too much fuel to flow. I don't find that likely.
Its like an old timey pulse width modulation, when the rpms get higher the pump runs more often.

[lx 1986]

ShiRen

So if the relay is stuck on it could possibly cause the problem I'm having with the gas being to high in the glass? Is that possible?

[Oldblueaccord]

Sort of, it pulses off the tach signal, so unless the relay is stuck on I don't think it could cause too much fuel to flow. I don't find that likely.
Its like an old timey pulse width modulation, when the rpms get higher the pump runs more often.

Thats absolutely NOT how it works. Its straight voltage to the pump switched with a relay for safety. PWM wasnt even being used until early 2000 and you need sensors for feed back and a controller.

The procedure is in the book for testing the pump with out the relay. TESTING only. I believe you make a jumper wire between post 1+2 where the relay goes.

[Dr_Snooz]

The only way for gas to leave the bowl is evaporation if you left it sit for a month, or a leak out the side like the sight glass seal or the plate below it allowing access to the jets. I don't know if that is even on the right track though.

It can also boil out from heat soak. It's very common on V8s with aftermarket carbs and manifolds.

[lx 1986]

Ok guys

I was thinking about what DrSnooze was saying about looking elsewhere for a problem. I didn't change the pump out yet.

My OEM relay wasn't working all the time. I could try to resolder it to see if I could save it but don't want to mess with it because it's working some what. I'm going to order the standard motor one and hope that one is more well made than the WVE relay.

I've had 2 WVE relays from rockauto. 1st one was bad and was still under warranty. Replacement was the one that puts out 9 volts. Both turned out to be bad.

The car has to be able to start for me to do anything.

[Oldblueaccord]

Ok guys

I was thinking about what DrSnooze was saying about looking elsewhere for a problem. I didn't change the pump out yet.

My OEM relay wasn't working all the time. I could try to resolder it to see if I could save it but don't want to mess with it because it's working some what. I'm going to order the standard motor one and hope that one is more well made than the WVE relay.

I've had 2 WVE relays from rockauto. 1st one was bad and was still under warranty. Replacement was the one that puts out 9 volts. Both turned out to be bad.

The car has to be able to start for me to do anything.

The procedure is in the book for testing the pump with out the relay. TESTING only. I believe you make a jumper wire between post 1+2 where the relay goes.

[ShiRen]

Thats absolutely NOT how it works. Its straight voltage to the pump switched with a relay for safety. PWM wasnt even being used until early 2000 and you need sensors for feed back and a controller.

The procedure is in the book for testing the pump with out the relay. TESTING only. I believe you make a jumper wire between post 1+2 where the relay goes.
Its not? Thats what I read on here and I never tried to disprove it since the relay coil power comes off the dizzy. Its not pwm, I thought the dizzy sent the 12v pulse and the relay switched 12v to the pump while there was a cylinder firing... Im not even sure a relay can move that fast and if it did I didn't figure itd last 30 years. Itd be the same thing as pwm basically and manageing the duty cycle of the pump. Sorry if I have had that misunderstanding for so long lol.


It can also boil out from heat soak. It's very common on V8s with aftermarket carbs and manifolds.
I figure he'd have to be running to achieve vapor lock lmao

[Oldblueaccord]

Its not? Thats what I read on here and I never tried to disprove it since the relay coil power comes off the dizzy. Its not pwm, I thought the dizzy sent the 12v pulse and the relay switched 12v to the pump while there was a cylinder firing... Im not even sure a relay can move that fast and if it did I didn't figure itd last 30 years. Itd be the same thing as pwm basically and manageing the duty cycle of the pump. Sorry if I have had that misunderstanding for so long lol.


I figure he'd have to be running to achieve vapor lock lmao

I know its confusing since the tach signal isnt a steady state voltage but to the pump its just straight voltage. PWM there switching the ground I believe like fuel injectors. Solid theory. Work great in this application.

Honestly I dont know how the relay holds it for a few seconds after the ignition is cut off. guessing there using a transistor and a diode maybe,or just smoothing the signal out with a diode.

My guess with his voltage up and down the relay contacts on the fuse board are loose,corroded, or burnt from over amperage.

[ShiRen]

Its possible the relay is sort of a latching type, so once it receives voltage the relay stays closed no matter how the voltage fluctuates on the coil side. It probably does this through a capacitor, which would stay charged for a few seconds after the car is off, a normal latching relay would usually physically latch itself in place until voltage is reversed or applied on a second coil winding. I will look at the manual to see if I can see if this is the case. This is mildly frightening, I am surprised that so many relays have lasted this long if there is a capacitor in them, I will probably replace mine with a more conventional type with an inline fuel pressure reg later on. If it is supposed to stay closed, if that cap goes bad then the relay starts switching like mad, like how I thought it worked, that would definitely introduce some heat and current in the pump circuit and eventually cause a voltage drop. I won't say that's what has happened, but I don't think you are wrong suspecting the fuse box contacts causing the voltage drop. What he could do is add some wires on the bottom of the coil and connect it just like it would be sitting in the fuse box then measure 12v on the fuel pump pins. If it is low on the Bat+ pin that would be a little strange, I would start replacing battery cables, if the fuel pump pin is lower than the Bat+ pin then the issue is probably the relay or the connection in the fuse box if he can get a multimeter in the circuit a bit farther down the line. If you can only check between the relay and pump then at least you can suspect the wire or a connection between the 2, I don't think the fuel pump wire terminates at a plug in the firewall so it is probably the fuse box or wire.

That still doesn't explain why he would be getting more fuel than the carb can take, but I would say low fuel pump voltage is a problem that needs to be fixed nonetheless, it may contribute to the hard starting at least.

[lx 1986]

Thought I bought Standard Motor brand relay to replace WVE brand it was delivered yesterday from rockauto. Opened the box & found they had put a WVE relay in a Standard Motor box instead. Same color & same number stamped on part like junk I was replacing. I'm returning it tomorrow & have to pay for return shipping.

Now I'm sorry I didn't pay a little more & buy it from O'Reilly. This isn't the 1st time I bought a piece of crap from them. I bought a dizzy & had to replace it under warranty. The the replacement looked like it had been used and was just thrown in plain brown box. died right after warranty ran out. 1st one I bought was packaged in a box with there logo plastered on it with foam padding around the dizzy & looked new. That's part of their advertisement.

I bought a cap & rotor from them & neither part fit. I didn't send it back because the parts were cheap & I would have paid more in shipping than what I paid for the parts. I think their in the business of ripping people off.

I think I'll go with Oreilly's I was doing some research on Standard Motor Products and found Oreilly's Import Direct brand is part of their co. I could buy Standard brand but it's more expensive the the Import Direct relay. Or have any of you used Import Direct brand or have any info on this brand or another brand I should be looking at?

[Oldblueaccord]

Standard brand was the Gold standard once but no more. You can see my thread about the wrong ignition coils there selling for our cars. I spent a bunch on there parts for my Chrysler ignition and the pick up coil failed with in a 100 miles and they would not do anything on a "life time warranty" part.

I have had pretty good luck with Oreillys parts in the last dew years. They at least follow up on there warranty.

[ShiRen]

I would not get caught up on any particular brand on Rockauto, at least 95% of the time, you still have brands like NGK on there. What you will often find now is parts that have been on the shelf for 15 years, rebranded parts, parts designed a million years ago and sold by another company who doesn't know what the part even is. Mevotech, who seems to be decent otherwise, bought a design for an adjustable rear uca which takes the wrong ball joint and they fail to mention that, they did not even know.

Oreillys is easy to rag on, but heck its just a short drive to return it if your parts don't fit, and they won't charge you. Don't be afraid to ask them to price match Rockauto, because they will to the shipping price, which would not be much in this case. I've had about as much luck with Import Direct as I have with Rockauto, its fine, don't worry too much if it works, if it doesn't it will probably be within warranty. I knew a guy that drove a slammed 4x4 Silverado, to combat the increased axle shaft wear he just bought Mastercraft axles and kept replacing them under warranty, didn't cost him a dime lol.

As for your cap and rotor you probably got a Hitachi cap for a TEC dizzy or vise versa. I a nice brass cap and rotor from Rockauto when I switched to my Hitachi dizzy, but I knew exactly what I was looking for.

[Oldblueaccord]

I think NGK bought Wells actually...that may or may not be a good thing. if Wells messes up NGK spark plugs Ill go all electric.

[ShiRen]

I don't think you have anything to worry about, NGK is extremely Japanese, and I don't think change is in their vocabulary lol

Thats a rule of thumb when the first word in a brand is still Nippon

[lx 1986]

Oldblueaccord & ShiRen

I bought a BWD cap & rotor on Amazon because that was the only brand that fit like OEM which I use to get from dealer. I try to buy as many parts as I can at local stores so that way I don't have to deal with shipping or emailing them about a problem. But now parts are getting hard to find. I bought pump from Autozone only because they were cheaper than Oreillys. Otherwise their a last resort. Pepboys doesn't have many parts at all anymore. I found Rock is just a clearing house & they don't have any knowledge of their parts. I asked a question about the dizzy. He couldn't answer that. They just threw the WVE relay in a Standard Brand box no packing inside of the box. I don't think they know there's a difference and that's the color of the housing. WVE is brown & Standard is supposed to be light grey like my OEM. Besides their 2 different companies. I told Rock want a refund. My WVE is still under warranty so if I wanted a 3rd WVE I would just pay shipping for replacement not 58.19 for Standard brand.

I forgot the relay was another thing besides the pump the carb had in common when I was having problems. The mechanic thought maybe the fuse box was bad because I had just put in the 2nd WVE. 1st WVE was causing pump not getting power. When I put 2nd WVE in it got power so mechanic thought it was fuse box. I had him check it out. He pulled it cleaned contacts said it was good to go. That's why I checked out voltage I was wondering if the relay was part of my problem again, found pump was only getting 9 volts. My OEM got over 11. The OEM is in there now but it has it's problem to that's why I bought the WVE in the 1st place.

I would buy Standard at Oreillys it has a limited lifetime warranty I have to order it. The Import Direct warranty is only a year and I could get it now.

[Oldblueaccord]

The jumper wire will prove if it's the relay or a bad wiring or connection.

[lx 1986]

Oldblueaccord

So the car should start with jumper wire on 1 & 2 slots in back of fuse box, with relay removed. So that means relay? Can I use paper clip as a jumper or should it be wire?

I was going to resolder WVE & put it in there & see what happens.

[Oldblueaccord]

I would use a real wire and yes it should run full on 12 volts.

You downloaded them manual and have been studying on it I hope. its page 11-43 in my book for the 88;s.

[lx 1986]

Oldblueaccord

Ok I'll try testing. I have 86 accord and manual I have downloaded is 1989 manual DrSnooze has posted. Pages 11-3 thru 11-47 for fuel pump and relay. Thanks

[Dr_Snooz]

I figure he'd have to be running to achieve vapor lock lmao

Vapor lock is a different problem. Heat soak will empty the carb bowls after the car is turned off. It's not very likely on a 3g because the exhaust manifold sits on the other side of the engine from the carb. Still, it's not impossible.

[Oldblueaccord]

Fuel won't stay in a carb more than 5 to 7 days. It's the formulation of it isn't made for carbs.

[Dr_Snooz]

Yeah, it turns to goo and clogs everything hopelessly.

[Oldblueaccord]

I don't really have clogging problems I actually think E10 runs cleaner. The fuel itself just evaporates out of the fuel bowl vent. So unless you start a car every day or every 5 days you have to do a bunch of pumping,cranking,to get fuel to fill the bowls esp. Cars with mechanical fuel pumps.

Crazy as it sounds I ran a test on my Thermo quad carb and 7th day it needed multiple pumps to get going,where starting it everyday was set the choke crank fire a fair.

[ShiRen]

Idk when I started my car last, but it took a few cranks yesterday, still fired with no choke in a sub 45 garage. Not sure what gas is in it though, probably no ethanol if what the pumps by my house say is true

[lx 1986]

Alright guys. Here's the results of the relay tests on pg 11-47 in the 89 Honda manual. I did one on Dec 14th and 2nd on Dec 15th.

DEC 14TH

Test #3
Continuity between #3 terminal and body ground. Result: oo3

Test #4
Positive probe to #2 terminal and negative probe to #3 terminal. Turn ignition switch ON. Battery voltage should be available.
Result: 12.01-12.02

Test #5
Positive probe to terminal #4 and negative probe to #3 terminal. Turn ignition switch ON. Battery voltage should be available.
Result: sometimes 1.44. sometimes 9.98

Test #6-7 connect jumper wire to #1-#2 terminals turn key ON. The fuel pump should run.
results: yes pump runs

DEC 15TH

Test #3
Results: 004

Test #4
results: sometimes 11.22
sometimes 15.05

Test #5
Results: sometimes 1.53
sometimes 10.18

Tests #6-7
Results: yes pump runs

For #5 test book says if no voltage, check the BLU wire from the ignition coil and fuel cut-off relay.

At the ignition coil there's a blue wire and a BLU/bk wire that goes somewhere, don't know. The blue wire goes to the dizzy. How do I check it and how do I check the BLU wire for the relay?

Since I didn't know where to go from there I checked the ignition coil. I have to check it again not really sure if specs are right. I'll do that later I have to recover from backache. I guess trying to crawl under dash took it's toll on my back, having a hard time walking and standing right now.

[Dr_Snooz]

I don't really have clogging problems I actually think E10 runs cleaner. The fuel itself just evaporates out of the fuel bowl vent. So unless you start a car every day or every 5 days you have to do a bunch of pumping,cranking,to get fuel to fill the bowls esp. Cars with mechanical fuel pumps.

Crazy as it sounds I ran a test on my Thermo quad carb and 7th day it needed multiple pumps to get going,where starting it everyday was set the choke crank fire a fair.

It evaporates out of the bowl and leaves a gooey residue that eventually clogs the jets. It's the bane of small engine carbs. Is why best practice is to turn off the gas at the tank and run your equipment till it stops. It tends to cause poor running on large engines till new gas clears all the gook out.

[ShiRen]

There is a discrepancy in your numbers because there is no possible way to get 15v out of a car that is not running, and it shouldn't even when it is running. We clearly need to look at pin 4 though, that blue wire you are looking for is on the ignition coil. One plug goes to the distributor, one goes elsewhere, you need to trace the blue wire on the plug that goes elsewhere, doesn't matter if its blu/blk, it shouldn't be, but that is the right wire.

[lx 1986]

ShiRen

I looked at the 89 manual's diagram and can't see where the wires go the pic isn't very good. It looks like it's bundled with another bunch of wires and goes somewhere under the fuse box. Not really sure about that when I looked at it visually. I thought maybe it was hooked to the box but I wasn't able to get the box out. Do you know how to remove the under hood box. I got as far as removing the 3 nuts holding the box to the car but I couldn't lift it out. Is there something I'm missing that's holding it down still?

What's funny is to test something they don't tell you how to do the test. Just telling me to check it doesn't tell me anything. How, is what I need to know.

I took out some of the bigger fuses in the box because I remembered awhile ago my radiator blew a hole in the top of it and the cover was off the box and fluid got in there. I still need to clean one big fuse, couldn't do it because one screw is messed up and I couldn't get it loose. I can't do it today it's raining. Well it will give me a chance to recover from my backache and sore ribs a little longer.

I tested my coil to make sure it was good. I found another coil wire that was better than the one that was on there.

[ShiRen]

I am not sure what holds the box in, I will have to look at mine.
They want you to make sure there are no breaks in the wire or high resistance, you can also look at the other things that are on the circuit, like the tach needs to be working and it needs to be reading correctly and not jumping around when you rev it, however it needs to actually be running to rev it. Im just skimming through the forums before work though, I will have to catch back up on this problem later.