Mystery Oil Leak

[Sandwich]

Hey All,

Noticed a small oil leak popped up on the bottom of my oil pan a few weeks ago, seems to have grown a decent bit so investigated, see photos: Shared album - theo jones - Google Photos (https://photos.app.goo.gl/zkXDdqUozQe8cZBD7) .
I drove it on Sunday and today is Tuesday, see the size of the 'spill' for size reference. My two thoughts are

a) The washer on the drain plug needs replacing (I didnt touch this after changing oil even though manual says to)

b) Oil is SEEPING through my oil pan as a result of corrosion. This sounds ridiculous at first, but I've had a look around and there doesnt seem to be any constant stream coming from above, furthermore, the whole front section of the pan has corrosion on it and oil seems to coat this bit (higher than the plug itself). Is this even possible? If so I dont like the look of it!

See the photos, Any wisdom appreciated! I wonder if it is the latter what chance I got of bringing this back... any? It doesn't look horrendous to change, and there seem to be some oil pans on RockAuto at least.

Cheers!

PS sorry about all the google photos links, the forum and my PC dont like uploading photos all the time.

[Oldblueaccord]

Im gonna agree with you looks like the pan is rusted thru. They sell them new and the fit pretty ok. The old gasket will be stuck on pretty good and rock hard.

Cheap fix I have used fiberglass patch on oil pans. Pan needs to be cleaned up really well.

[Sandwich]

Im gonna agree with you looks like the pan is rusted thru. They sell them new and the fit pretty ok. The old gasket will be stuck on pretty good and rock hard.

Cheap fix I have used fiberglass patch on oil pans. Pan needs to be cleaned up really well.

Hmm, reckon I'll go all out and buy a new pan if others agree, seems like a literal band-aid that I wouldnt do justice... Cheers :)

Edit: reckon this is a slow burner or I'm not gonna be able to drive it home for Christmas?

[ShiRen]

Its pretty rusty so you might as well replace it if you are up for it. It is likely your car leaks from other places, but baby steps.

[Dr_Snooz]

The hole appears to be at the bottom of the pan, which is worse than if it was at the top because it will lose all your oil and not just some. And rust always seems to be a lot worse than it looks. Try to jab your thumb through the hole. If you can, then you know it needs to be replaced right now. If you can't, then maybe risk it. It will be awfully expensive if it lets go though.

[Sandwich]

Yeh im hesitant atm, gave it a good prod and didnt go through thankfully, but gonna give it a test run and see how much oil I'm really seeping.

[Oldblueaccord]

Hmm, reckon I'll go all out and buy a new pan if others agree, seems like a literal band-aid that I wouldnt do justice... Cheers :)

Edit: reckon this is a slow burner or I'm not gonna be able to drive it home for Christmas?

id carry some xtra oil just in case. The oil pan removal on our cars isnt to bad. The rust underneath is going to add xtra to it. The tube from the breather box on the back of the engine to the pan is the worst part probably.

I patched alot of oil pans. I grew up in New York where there is alot of snow and salt damage to vehicles. Chrysler 318 cars seemed to be the ones I did the most. You couldn't get the pan off with out removing the engine so It was the next best thing. Properly done it lasts.

[Sandwich]

Decided against driving it, wouldnt be the best christmas present if it dropped all its oil on the road!

Putting together a shopping list for replacing the oil pan from reading other forum posts, let me know your thoughts/anything you'd recommend I'd do while ive got it and the exhaust off (like oil filter gaskets).

Oil Pan - RA
Oil Pan Gasket - Honda edit: Honda don't have it, gonna go with Fel-Pro I guess, annoying after hearing all the shade thrown on aftermarket Gaskets!
PCV return hose - Is this just generic hose?
Oil Filter housing gasket - RA
Oil Filter housing bolts (do I need this?)
Oil Plug 'crush' washers
Exhaust Gaskets (exhaust to header) & (header to cat)
RTV Grey (I read no silicone but also this recommended?)
or Honda Bond (how does this differ?)
'Lock' Washers (are these for the oil pan itself?)
A Universal Joint (any other useful tools?)

Thanks and Merry Christmas (almost)

[ShiRen]

I don't see any reason to change the oil filter housing bolts, theyre like regular m6 bolts, its not like they put stretch on them from the factory. Idk what you are using the RTV for but Hondabond is not RTV, the difference is it doesn't vulcanize, its strange stuff.

[Sandwich]

I read about people using either honda bond or RTV in very limited quantities to sticky the corners of the gasket, if honda bond is better then ill grab that I reckon

[ShiRen]

Either is fine. I keep both on hand.

[Dr_Snooz]

You talking about something like this, Blue?

https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.kapwaY_R4mxtBoCze1a_SwHaJQ?pid=Api&rs=1

[Oldblueaccord]

Yeah the fiberglass mesh was what proper shops used...down and dirty on a Saturday night we would just use what we would call Tiger Hair bondo. I really think it was called "cuz". Id patch gas tanks with it too.

[Sandwich]

Hey, does anyone know if the PCV breather hose going to the oil pan is 1 or 3/4 inch diameter?

Also is standard coolant hose alright or do i need something special? Cheers

[Oldblueaccord]

1983-1989 Honda Tube 11854-PC6-010 | Honda Parts Online (https://www.hondapartsonline.net/oem-parts/honda-tube-11854pc6010?c=Zz1lbmdpbmUmcz1icmVhdGhlci10dWJlLW9p bC1maWx0ZXImbD0zJm49QXNzZW1ibGllcyBQYWdlJmE9aG9uZG Embz1hY2NvcmQtaGF0Y2hiYWNrJnk9MTk4OCZ0PWx4aSZlPTUt c3BlZWQtbWFudWFs)

I think its this one but the picture shows it going to the oil filter housing and mine goes to the oil pan. I think the 21 mm is inside measurement.

Just to add I just drop the exhaust off the manifold and dont mess with the other connections on the flex pipe or converter.

Hondabond is NON harding sealer. I dont have good luck with it mine hardened in the tube quickly and was very expensive.

I would plan on cleaning and painting some of the parts underneath while you have them off. Fight the rust anyway you can.

EDIT: Advance Auto Parts - Down for Maintenance (https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/genuine-crankcase-breather-hose-b2010177200oes/10737803-P?navigationPath=L1*14932%7CL2*14982)

[Dr_Snooz]

Hey, does anyone know if the PCV breather hose going to the oil pan is 1 or 3/4 inch diameter?

Also is standard coolant hose alright or do i need something special? Cheers

I also want to know this. Or perhaps it's more accurate to say that I want to know what standard sized bulk house can be made to work in this application.

[Sandwich]

I also want to know this. Or perhaps it's more accurate to say that I want to know what standard sized bulk house can be made to work in this application.

So I bought some generic hose from 'hose world' in the UK. Went with 22mm (7/8 inch) fuelhose, as I read you SHOULDNT use standard heater hose since oil & fuel can degrade it. Looks quite similar and didnt cost much more, think its coated of sorts.

I'll let you know how fitment goes since the prescribed is 21mm, couldnt find anything in that size though and I hope its close enough.

7/8" (22mm) I.D. Fuel hose - FUEL HOSE - FUEL HOSES & TUBINGS - AUTOMOTIVE & MARINE HOSE - Shop (https://www.hoseworld.com/7-8-22mm-i-d-fuel-hose-fh-22.html)

[Sandwich]

Hey.

Couldnt source an OEM gasket for the oil pan so got a Fel-Pro one instead. Was checking how it lines up, looks as though its not quite right, had finger holding over the correct hole, and lined it up in middle and on other side (other photo), see photo:
Shared album - theo jones - Google Photos (https://photos.app.goo.gl/qpA8ky2roy3atPXf8)
Have you guys seen the same thing when replacing pan gaskets or is it not alright?

Cheers.

[Oldblueaccord]

Yeah thats the fit I remember too.

I used sewing thread to hold the gasket in place in a few spots.

[Dr_Snooz]

Yeah, that's about what I remember too. Fel-Pro is a good brand and the manual does call for supplemental RTV to be used in all those corners.

[Sandwich]

yeh bit of an update, old oil pan says NO :D

I'm certain I got all 18 nuts & bolts off, tranny dust plate off too, smacked all over (except tranny side ofc) with mallet, shoved a screwdriver in the filler and yanked a load & started prying the seal from the pan. No luck though!

Bought some gasket remover spray will let you know how I get on.

The seal fit got me to buy some Hondabond (semi-dry not high temp) too so hopefully sorted when it all arrives.

[Oldblueaccord]

Block of wood and a big hammer. Since your not using it again whale away.

[Oldblueaccord]

So you blast that thing off there or what?

[Sandwich]

Ok so, took me a bit of time, working in and out of free time and around the rain, working outside isnt the most fun lol.

Oil pan really wouldn't budge after a lot of smacking. The gasket remover worked wonders, sprayed it all round the front side of the gasket (backside hard to access) and slowly pryed a flathead in between oil pan and gasket, avoiding block, took quite a few applications but soon was able to get whole front off, not end of story though... levering a screwdriver in drain hole couldnt do it, ended up jamming the prying end of hammer in the front side and levered it off, didnt care for the pan since im replacing it. Warning on shoving a screwdriver in the drain plug, I bent my oil screen, a part which is deep in the pan and feeds the oil pump. This was a good method I followed initially. Oil Pan Gasket Replacement Outline (https://www.3geez.com/forum/3geez-accords/146915-oil-pan-gasket-replacement-outline.html)

Since then I havent put it back on, been messing around with those horrid old coolant hoses connected to the oil filter base. Got that back on today, is horrid to remove with the cooler attached to it. The spark plug style lead for the oil pressure sender was rock solid old rubber so took a bit of prying. Base itself has bottom two bolts blocked by the cooler bit, need the perfect sized wrench, also took removal of the alternator bottom bracket, next was getting through the 32 year old hose which took a big yank.

Was gonna get a o-ring style new gasket for the base... out of stock, cant seem to find it anywhere UK or with decent shipping so... I made my own. Bought an o-ring splicing kit, do recommend its a great bit of kit. These are the results: Shared album - theo jones - Google Photos (https://photos.app.goo.gl/H6rNErKEA9t9uMpX9)

The kit itself comes with 2m of about 10-15 different diameter nitrile rubber lengths that can be spliced together with ease. The custom shape that I did, did take a few tries though.

Its good timing since I dont think I could have done this with the PCV breather hose in the way, the hose was shot and doubt it would have lasted long. Lets see if the custom o-ring holds up...

Now to fit the new oil pan. Spending so long under the car, scary to see all the jobs that will need doing on brakes and suspension, lots of old rubber haha!

[Sandwich]

Gonna replace the old rusty bolts on the pan, anyone know if the thread opens on the top side of the block? The original bolts are 14-16mm ish, I got 20mm or 12mm which I dont think is enough, ideally I could fit 20mm that would peak through the top a bit.

Cheers!

[Oldblueaccord]

Cant help with the bolts.

I think we got that same make your own O ring kit at work and it seems to work really well. if it doesnt Im sure we can get you that O ring here stateside and swim it over.


Careful with the coolant pipe that runs accross the back of the motor its not available and I havent see any one make anykind of replacement. maybe cleaned the outside up and paint it.

Clean clean clean what you can and try and paint what you can even in the cold and all.

[Sandwich]

you've got me thinking now... i could take the base back off and clean up the area as you say. What do you mean by clean up, is there a method you would use? I noticed lots of small bit of rust on all sorts of different bits round there, components and body bits, nothing severe but maybe i should make this job even bigger and really future proof, I've never done this before though so am open to guidance.

As for the pipe in particular, I do actually have another by chance, will keep ahold of it.

Thanks blue.

[Oldblueaccord]

Sandpaper,scotch brite and elbow grease. If you have air tools even better. Anyway you can get rid of rust so it doesnt spread is a good thing.

de grease, primer and paint. I know its cold where your at but if you keep spray cans at room temperature and then take them outside and use them that will help paint stick and dry pretty well. We have Rustolum brand paint in cans for metal you brush on its pretty good.

All out remove all the parts and get them sandblasted and powder coated.


EDIT: also I cant remember if I wrote this but here stateside our cars dont have that oil cooler/warmer thing so if it starts giving you a fit you could pitch it I would think. Cool little item anyway.

[ShiRen]

Miatas have the same kind of oil warmer, it is tradition to bypass the throttle body coolant and oil warmer when you do cooling mods on those cars, so that is what I did this weekend. Yeah... feel free to pitch that thing.

[Sandwich]

Alright big job just got even bigger, got some paint and sandpaper on the way so gonna clean up all the bits I didnt like the look of down there, especially that pipe. Any tips I should know before taking that pipe out?

Will keep the warmer on for the meantime unless it gives me more problems.

Cheers.

[Oldblueaccord]

Im not sure I would disturb it just clean it up on car best you can and anything else you can under there. I think how it seals to the water pump housing could be really weak.

[Sandwich]

That's exactly the kinda tip I was looking for, cheers Blue.

Will update when the rain ceases.

[Dr_Snooz]

Yeah, best not to mess with the coolant pipe. It's really thin metal right where it connects to the water pump housing. After 30 years and neglected coolant flushes, there's not much metal left. Even if it leaks, I'd say smear around the outside of it with RTV. That's what I've done with mine.

[Sandwich]

Got the oil filter base on and started on cleaning up the engine block for the new gasket and pan to go on. Took me a while getting the stuck gasket & sealant off. 2 questions I got:

Is it clean enough? I recorded what it looks like here:
Shared album - theo jones - Google Photos (https://photos.app.goo.gl/wnzzQS34jUi5ruvD7)

How much sealant am I putting on? everywhere I've read says only a little on the corners, yet from what it looks like theres a decent bit more than that on there originally:
Shared album - theo jones - Google Photos (https://photos.app.goo.gl/B41sFftufAV58xRg7)

tomorrow is the big day! let me know if you got any other tips for the oil pan, gonna hold the gasket on with some mini zip ties I got like your sewing thread trick blue.

Cheers.

[Oldblueaccord]

All looks good to me.

The thread trick is so you can put bolts in the holes that have been thread in them and pull it out before you tighten everything up.

[Sandwich]

What do you think about the quantity of sealant? really unsure if any at all vs. a little in the corners vs spread thinly but along curved sections etc. ... both sides too?

Also, im unsure what to torque to, so far I got
7 ft-lbs = 9.5 Nm
10 ft-lbs = 13.5 Nm

I have a torque wrench and wont be going tight tight. gonna tighten bolts in x pattern from inside out too.

would be nice if the shop manual had a page on this!

[Sandwich]

you know, it doesn't matter, the ATP pan I got has a catastrophic positioning problem for the pipe that goes into it, about 5 mm closer to the centre, now means it wont fit between the gap in the baffle plate, and even if it did it would then likely collide with the crank. if you can't tell im pretty pissed off, been going at this job for 2 months for this to finally crop up..

[Oldblueaccord]

That's weird it won't fit. Mine was a Spectra...I think and it wasn't made well it needed to be spread some for the front and rear bolt holes to line up.

The PVC pipe is the worse part of that job getting it slide on while pushing the pan on.

Now on the EFI models they do have a windage tray on the crank maybe the carbs dont.

Torque 10 ft lbs sounds OK most torque wrenches aren't acurate at that low.

Sealant I just do the parts where the round meets the flat on the ends of of the pan.

[Sandwich]

Ok calmed down and investigated, the PVC pipe seems to be ~10mm closer to centre than the pan I've got, otherwise they match pretty well.

on the rockauto website the compatibility is with carbs & EFI, may be wrong but I'd hope that would be accurate. I'm worried its because I have an A20A4 and that may be different to US spec, I remember the part numbers were different by one number, gonna call Honda to check on Monday. (they dont have it in stock annoyingly)

I'm considering removing that baffle plate and cutting room in it for the pipe, just unsure if the pipe would be too close to the crank and/or anything else moving. I've got some photos of crank lineup and the pan compared to the old one, so will study those: Shared album - theo jones - Google Photos (https://photos.app.goo.gl/v4opNvdoF22Cjx5x9)

Have any of you got an old stock pan lying around you can measure for me? I'm keen to see the distance of the pipe to the outside, if its the same as my old one (UK spec) or the same as the new one.

Big job... just got bigger...

edit: From the photos I took, I have the PCV pipe positioning to be approximately 2mm closer to the centre than the baffle cutout actually allows, need to figure out if this in line with anything spinning, and then may try bending the pipe and/or cutting the baffle plate to allow this. if it's too edgy gonna have to buy another one.

[ShiRen]

Honestly I dont see any issue with notching the pan or cutting a lot off the pcv pipe on the inside

[Oldblueaccord]

Ok calmed down and investigated, the PVC pipe seems to be ~10mm closer to centre than the pan I've got, otherwise they match pretty well.

on the rockauto website the compatibility is with carbs & EFI, may be wrong but I'd hope that would be accurate. I'm worried its because I have an A20A4 and that may be different to US spec, I remember the part numbers were different by one number, gonna call Honda to check on Monday. (they dont have it in stock annoyingly)

I'm considering removing that baffle plate and cutting room in it for the pipe, just unsure if the pipe would be too close to the crank and/or anything else moving. I've got some photos of crank lineup and the pan compared to the old one, so will study those: Shared album - theo jones - Google Photos (https://photos.app.goo.gl/v4opNvdoF22Cjx5x9)

Have any of you got an old stock pan lying around you can measure for me? I'm keen to see the distance of the pipe to the outside, if its the same as my old one (UK spec) or the same as the new one.

Big job... just got bigger...

edit: From the photos I took, I have the PCV pipe positioning to be approximately 2mm closer to the centre than the baffle cutout actually allows, need to figure out if this in line with anything spinning, and then may try bending the pipe and/or cutting the baffle plate to allow this. if it's too edgy gonna have to buy another one.

I think I would mess with the pipe before the windage tray but I dont think it matter much.

Like you said make sure it doesnt hit the crank is all.

[Dr_Snooz]

Yeah, just make it work. All that pipe does is dribble oil back into the pan.

I know what you mean though. It seems like any time I buy parts from Rock Auto, the job always turns into a big nightmare.

[Sandwich]

Okay, nice one thanks for that guys, wasnt sure how much pressure it carried, but confident to give it a good bend now, failing that, chop it off. Will let you know how I get on.


I know what you mean though. It seems like any time I buy parts from Rock Auto, the job always turns into a big nightmare.

haha...jobs would be too easy if this kinda crap didnt come up

will let you know how I get on, depends if its raining this weekend :D

[Sandwich]

bought an angle grinder at toolstation and got cracking.

Plan A to precise cut and then bend quickly went out the window, not much precision going on. (this method How to Bend Thick Metal Without Traditional Tools - Kevin Caron - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xrg_waDvddc))

10613

Plan B to chop the whole inner section of the pipe off went a treat though.

10612

very ghetto daisy chaining power cords out the porch but it worked and my neighbours didnt seem too fussed.

[Oldblueaccord]

Clean it up and your ready to roll I think.

[Sandwich]

Hey,

so managed to get new pan on today, ended up ziptying gasket to block through the 4 bolt holes which have openings through the top, and hondabonded the 4 corners, both sides of gasket. Then fit pan with PCV hose putting up a struggle, still cant get it to slide all the way up. Torqued in X pattern to 9.5 Nm.

I got questions on fitment though, there's a couple areas where the gasket protrudes slightly and others where it doesn't, see the vid here:
Google Photos (https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMGs2ScXX1m9ZVPG12f3-EDEydQjj75SFhNcd4qC6iu8X2tZqqZM7GbvCL6O2ibCQ/photo/AF1QipMA7lhWDYkH39nlfedjc7xRzv1ssQdMox60RJM8?key=R zJfZUFsNFdhbC0tU3lTaFVvcnFzc0Z0Ql9VWkNn)

Also on the transmission side I can see it's not rolled over completley however there is a millimetre gap between pan and gasket which wouldnt be there in an ideal world. see vid here: Google Photos (https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMGs2ScXX1m9ZVPG12f3-EDEydQjj75SFhNcd4qC6iu8X2tZqqZM7GbvCL6O2ibCQ/photo/AF1QipO3dTMIXfYIh3I1K1z3HqTP08p_K_9mqTtupODo?key=R zJfZUFsNFdhbC0tU3lTaFVvcnFzc0Z0Ql9VWkNn)

Are either of these reasons to loosen it and rejig it? obviously I dont want to have to redo this job but its such a pain getting it to all line up in position.

Shared album - theo jones - Google Photos (https://photos.app.goo.gl/iv77huVBAEp6fT4Q8)

Cheers.

edit: i loosened and retorqued the bolts and it seems pretty well seated. I torqued them X pattern, then went round again a little (the central ones could be torqued again) but tbh dont think im gonna go higher than 9.5Nm as it already feels quite tight.

[Oldblueaccord]

My google is messing with the picture upload....but with gaskets you can always go a little tighter later on but backing it off after over tightening never seems to work. Sounds like your got it pretty light torque and it should be OK. if it leaks later you can go a little more.

[Sandwich]

Got it all back together, oil in, coolant in, turned the key, nothing.

I'd blown the battery fuse when removing the alternator, I even remember seeing it spark. Nice little reminder to always take off your battery negative before touching the electrics.

Will hopefully get new fuse on Monday.

[Sandwich]

New pan on, new fuse in, starts first time and drove well. Overheated in traffic but thats cause the fan has decided to break :D

[Oldblueaccord]

well...getting closer. good you had your eye on the temp gauge.

[Dr_Snooz]

Glad it's running again.