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Justanothermike
05-16-2003, 11:58 PM
My brother pulled it off. His 88 accord is now OBD1. Its running a F22 accord distributor and a ECU conversion harness. We've been trying different ECUs aswell. We've tried the stock F22 ecu and a stock P75 LS ecu. Both ecu's ran better then the old setup, but the P75 ran the best with good idle. Lowend torque and smoothness was definately felt right off the bat. The engine revs up much quicker in nuetral and pulls harder. This also really opens more possiblities for ECU upgrades with all the modifications available for the OBD1 ecu's, probably gonna get a chip next for the P75 or tune our AEM EMS to the A20. We hope to take it to the dyno soon, looking to make 150+ hp now:). anyways more details to come.

http://openloopmotorsports.com/distributor.jpg

oh by the way, we still have one complete B20a 5speed package that we need to sell. Email if your interested.

A20A1
05-17-2003, 02:38 AM
Kewl... :D
Too bad I can't use it... at the moment.

AccordEpicenter
05-17-2003, 03:57 AM
Whats the P75 computer? How do you make a conversion harness? What year/model F22 ecu and distributor did you use, there are differences between the years, not just models or generations, I have alot of these parts was thinking about doing the distributor swap for years...

AccordEpicenter
05-17-2003, 04:04 AM
Hey maybe if we can perfect this maybe we can get some hondata support or somthing... this could be really an advancement. Sorry for dp

shepherd79
05-17-2003, 04:06 AM
oh boy here we go. everyone will want this now.
Mike (justanothermike), you should make HOW TO about this.

Immeraufdemhund
05-17-2003, 08:46 AM
most def. A how 2 would be excellent, It has my interest sparked, i am almost ready to run out to the nearest junkyard and get me one. Let us know..quickly.

and another question on your bleeder were does that line go to? you have that fancy one on there and i look at mine it doesn't go anywere. what did you do with it?

Sean
05-20-2003, 06:52 PM
mike obviously hasent been following the GM progress. its ready to close now. had to sort out some details and get it clean enough to pass emisions. belive it or not emisions and gas milage and performance dont mix. gas mileage and performance no problem. keeping the catalytic converter happy that a whole different story. mike get in touch.

A20A1
05-20-2003, 08:51 PM
Well he said his bro did it... Mike's the go-between I suppose... No offense.

Jims 86LXI HB
05-21-2003, 08:34 AM
So his shop made a dream into driveable reality, we should be happy instead of, "but what about me and my work".

We also need to remember that this information is brought to us as a gift. But as such, mike is in the difficult position that since this was created at a shop who's business is dirived(ms) from doing this kind of work, it may not be in their best interest to give you complete details, least people not give them that business. So, mike may or may not be able to shaire with us a how to. If we can't have a how to, just be greatfull that you were given a heads up on a factual working system that gives you a alternate route to take in doing such a system, yourself.


I for one am gratefull that mike did the post, thank you mike.
:wave:

Sean
05-21-2003, 06:26 PM
my point is that the obd1 honda ECM's are a step backwards. they still dont have knock protection and to top it off the f22a dizzy is prone to spark scatter and module death. im not critizing. im just saying. that hondas hardware and software arent tunner firendly. and for what it would cost to scavange the parts you could have a trick GM setup and it would be 10x more programable then the best hondata setup around.

AccordEpicenter
05-21-2003, 09:17 PM
that is very true, just ask any 4th gen owner, those internal coils and the ignitor modules fail very commonly, and at like $150 or so per ignitor from honda... damn... Oh yea and Hondata aint cheap at all

jstyle711
05-21-2003, 11:35 PM
P75 LS? what is that off of?.. integra? :|

PhydeauX
05-22-2003, 04:07 AM
Playing devil's advocate for a bit... After market caps are available that allow you to run an external coil, I'd like to think that they help the spark scatter as well.

andy

2old_honda
05-22-2003, 10:34 AM
I would much rather have the DIS and be done with it. That is just my personal opinion.

AccordEpicenter
05-22-2003, 01:37 PM
yeah that is better in terms of reliability and sheer tunability... i mean, no distributor to fail, its just harder to install and get it to work, custom fab stuff is involved.

Sean
05-22-2003, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by AccordEpicenter
yeah that is better in terms of reliability and sheer tunability... i mean, no distributor to fail, its just harder to install and get it to work, custom fab stuff is involved.

actually there is no fab involved. its a bolt on.unless your carbed
the the fuel line is fab but thats novice easy.

Oyvind Ryeng
07-10-2004, 07:30 AM
Wow, this beats paying USD$2400 for a Haltech E6X. I would kill for the possibility to run Uberdata AND DIS ignition in my 3G. I think I would pay up to USD$1000 for having a OBD1 (chippable and Uberdata capable) ECU running in my car. I don't know what you pay for a P75 ECU over there, nor the cost of the conversion harness, or the OBD1 distributor, but (in a while) I will need programmable fuel management, and if it's cheaper than the Haltech, sure, why not?

Building a fast Honda with mostly Honda OEM parts is a thaught that makes me happy.

Justin86
07-10-2004, 06:12 PM
this is something that I have thought about but like SEAN said there dizzy isn't the best, My bro has replaced his module twice so far in his 4G and he has had the car for a year.

Blue Impact
07-10-2004, 06:18 PM
P75 LS? what is that off of?.. integra? :|

Definite. What other USDM Honda come in the LS trim?

smufguy
07-10-2004, 09:27 PM
this is something that I have thought about but like SEAN said there dizzy isn't the best, My bro has replaced his module twice so far in his 4G and he has had the car for a year.

my sister's 4g had it changed only once and it was at 154K miles and it was 2 years back. never had a problem since

Elijah
07-10-2004, 11:07 PM
Talk about bringing a dead thread back to life.I missed this thread completly.So I'm happy.

Robs89LXi
07-11-2004, 08:30 AM
Sure wish Mike and Darryl would share some more information on this swap though. I'm trying to do the same thing, but it is very slow going reinventing the wheel. C'mon, guys, how about it? I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to know more about how you did this.
:stick:

Busted_Blue
07-11-2004, 09:11 AM
I would love to meet mike and darryl, maybe Fred from SF Honda will introduce me to you :)

Justin86
07-12-2004, 09:09 AM
my sister's 4g had it changed only once and it was at 154K miles and it was 2 years back. never had a problem since
It one of those thing that just go out at random, mine went out on me a week ago all of sudden with no warning.

carotman
08-29-2004, 07:46 PM
Well guys I don't want to be an ass but this is an easy conversion...

Look at the picture carefully. The bottom bolt (not shown in the picture) should line up without problem. The rear top bolt is held in place by a custom bracket and spacers (probably). The front top bolt may or may not line up but it's not a problem... the carbed 3g distributor is held in place by 2 bolts and does not suffer in any way..

For the wiring, you need to add the 2 wires for the crank sensor and 1 wire for the igniter. Some of the 4th gen Accords had an external coil from the factory (depends of the years) so the internal coil failing isn't a problem. If you're worried by the igniter, just get an external ignitor from a 3rd gen Prelude.

The rest of the swap is just a wiring issue which is pretty simple I think.

He used the F series distributor but the D or B series might just work as fine (or maybe better)

I do not have an A20A anymore so I can't really help you on this one...

A20A1
08-29-2004, 07:54 PM
crank sensor... how do we hook that up?

carotman
08-29-2004, 08:04 PM
2 shielded wires going directly to the ECU...The colors are Blue-Yellow and Blue-Green.

You can use the cold advance solenoid wire as the igniter wire, that way you don't need to add a wire for it. Since you'll be using an electronic advance distributor, you will not need the cold advance solenoid anymore.

I will post a wiring how-to tomorrow about this :)

goldyaccord
09-01-2004, 01:16 PM
Is the how to up?

Accordtheory
09-09-2004, 01:09 PM
mike obviously hasent been following the GM progress. its ready to close now. had to sort out some details and get it clean enough to pass emisions. belive it or not emisions and gas milage and performance dont mix. gas mileage and performance no problem. keeping the catalytic converter happy that a whole different story. mike get in touch.

Yeah mike, get in touch, so he can take your money, feed you bullshit, and not send you a damn thing, your money back or the kit. You should jump all over that one. He won't send me my money back and I'm still waiting for the kit, and its been almost 5 months.

MoonScryer
09-10-2004, 07:12 PM
Yeah mike, get in touch, so he can take your money, feed you bullshit, and not send you a damn thing, your money back or the kit. You should jump all over that one. He won't send me my money back and I'm still waiting for the kit, and its been almost 5 months.

:stupid:

Gee, way to resurrect a one and a half year old post and crap on it. :ugh:

Oh, and your ECM? It is getting worked on, just so you can feel special. Also, you are welcome for wondering around in the 115 degree 100% humidity heat two weeks ago to find you a workable distributor.

smufguy
09-10-2004, 11:19 PM
you guys need to seriously stop this pitty fight of yours in all the threads you guys come across. Not to point fingers here, but i know there has been threads made, replies given and things are still bitter. But that does not mean it has to be brought up every once in a while. :duh:

joker2
09-11-2004, 05:10 AM
Yeah, this thread was getting really interesting.... Yo Carot, I hope you do the write up on this.... :deal:

carotman
09-11-2004, 05:25 AM
Check the engine swap sections... wiring this distributor should be same as my PK2 ECu conversion.

I suggest you get a distributor with an external coul (less wires to mess with) The igniter can come from a prelude (external) or you could use the one in the distributor.

In any case, you will need an obd-1 or obd-2 distributor.

Here is the thread:
http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=31622

I will add this to the How-To section soon when everything is cleared.

All you need guys now is a way to mount an electronic distributor on the A20A. If you go with the Pk2, the 88-89 A20A has already 2 O2 sensors so it's not a problem. If you go with any OBD-1 engine, you will need a 4 wire O2 sensor.


If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Justin86
09-12-2004, 09:09 PM
this is nice, now I just need to get the parts together, and have some fun with uberdata and get some more dyno time. :D

'A20A3'
11-17-2004, 07:39 PM
Questions:

1 - Which 4G has the ignitor outside the dizzy? Like year/trim level/etc...

2 - How do you make the conversion harness for the ECU?

I am VERY interested in doing this, and the more help I get the easier it will be for me.

Thanks.

NXRacer
11-17-2004, 09:46 PM
did you check the other thread? it has more info there.
http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=37494

ICEMAN707
03-19-2005, 08:34 AM
Is there a better OBD-0 ECU we could use for our 3geez? I did a search and I don't want to bother with OBD-1 conversions. I just want to plug in a better ECU without the hassles. I could buy the JET performance module for $250 or the VENOM for $400, but I wanna use a better OBD-0 ECU first.

AccordEpicenter
03-19-2005, 09:24 AM
no, no other ecu will work without extensive wiring modifications and swapping distributors. Swapping to obd 1 is the best idea

Justin86
03-19-2005, 11:10 AM
do some searching on PGMFI.org They will have the best info on what is the better OBD-0 ecu, but you will have to make at minimual some changes to the pin locations. I think it is that civic/CRX ecu that is the most tunable, can't remember for sure.

ICEMAN707
03-19-2005, 11:49 AM
cool, thanks. the reason i wanted to stick with OBD-0 is not only the ease of simply matching up wire pinouts, but also less emissions control = more power. unfortunately the A20A3 PJ0 ECU is not very tunable. yeah justin, you're right...i've found the 88-89 CRX/Civic PG6/PM6 ECU is the closest ECU to the A20's PJ0 other than the 2nd gen Lude's PK4. Look up 88-89 CRX/Civic PG6/PM6 pinout and compare it to the the A20 pinout. Looks almost identical and even has an EGR pin. I just wonder how it runs in the 3gee.

OBD0 CRX ECU codes:

88 crx - PG6
89 crx - PM6
JDM crx SiR - PW0

i might go the the j-yard and yank me an 88-89 crx ecu and try it out. if you noob guys do the same, make sure the civic/crx is 88 or 89 and ecu is PG6/PM6 cus those are the only ones that would work cus usually 90+ model year hondas started using OBD1. also. don't forget to match pinouts and verify before simply plugging in the CRX ECU. i think it's a 90-95% match. just watch out for the other 5-10% ;)

ICEMAN707
03-19-2005, 11:50 AM
Hey guys, I wanted to get a thread going on how to indentify what ECU you have so that I can make a link in the FAQ thread. (and for the noobs who ask )
So far this is all the info I got. If you have some more you can add, please do so. Thanks

ECU Part Numbers

All Honda ECUs have a part number which is located on the side of the ECU and inside the ECU on the connector. e.g. 37820-P72-A01

The part number consists of three components:

Honda's part number for ECU, which is always 37820
Three characters (which are loosely related to the model of car/engine). e.g P72
Three characters (which are the revision of the ECU) e.g. A01
The middle three characters are the most useful to identify what the ECU is. Different generation ECUs may use the same characters. e.g. a P72 OBD I ECU is different from a P72 OBD II ECU. Here is a list of common ECUs:

PG6: 88-89 Integra (all makes)
PM5: 88-91 Civic/CRX DX
PM6: 88-91 Civic/CRX SOHC Si
PM7: 89-91 DOHC ZC (JDM 'EF' ECU)
PM8: 88-91 CRX HF
PR2: 89-91 ZC (Euro)
PR3: 89-91 JDM B16A EF8/9
PR3-J00 or J51: 92 JDM Integra B16A EF8/9
PW0: 89-91 JDM B16A EF8/9 DA6-XSi
PR4: 90-91 Integra LS/GS
PS9: 88-91 4 door Civic EX Auto
P05: 92-95 OBD-1 Civic CX
P06: 92-95 OBD-1 Civic DX
P07: 92-95 OBD-1 Civic VX
P08: 92-95 OBD-1 Civic D15 JDM
P0A: 94-95 OBD-1 Accord EX
P13: 93-95 OBD-1 Prelude Vtec
P14: 93-95 OBD-1 Prelude Si (non Vtec)
P27: 92-95 OBD-1 EG JDM Civic 1600 sohc
P28: 92-95 OBD-1 Civic Si/Ex
P30: 92-95 OBD-1 DelSol DOHC Vtec Si/EG SiR
P54-G31: 1997 Honda Accord 1.8 LS
P61: 92-93 OBD-1 Integra GSR
P72: 94-95 OBD-1 Integra GSR
P72: 96-00 OBD-2 Integra GSR
P73: 96-00 OBD-2 Integra Type-R (JDM & USDM)
P74/75: 92-95 OBD-1 Integra LS/GS
P75: 96-00 OBD-2 Integra LS/GS
P2N: 96+ OBD-2 Civic HX Coupe
P2P: 96+ OBD-2 Civic EX Coupe
P2E: 96+ OBD-2 Civic DX Coupe
P2M: 96+ OBD-2 NZ Civic SOHC VTEC
P2T: 99+ OBD-? Civic Si Coupe
P5P: 97-00 OBD-2 Prelude Type-S (JDM ECU)
PBA: 97+ US Acura 1.6EL
PCT: 98+ JDM ITR / CTR
PCX: 99+ OBD-? S2000

PIC OF WHAT ECU IT IS....
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wMzI0NTgzNnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D

From top to bottom...

1. OBD IIb ECU
2. OBD II ECU
3. OBD I ECU
4. OBD 0 (JDM PR3 and PWO)

Oh and correct me if I'm wrong somewhere.

Justin86
03-19-2005, 12:05 PM
yea at least with the civic ECU you can change the fuel maps a little.
Have to get Mike to add that to the ECU FAQ, I'll Pm about it.

Hash_man_Se_i
03-19-2005, 12:48 PM
IMO, personally i wouldn't bother with OBD-0 and trying to tune it... my friends engine went in her 91 accord so i'm going to jack the distributor, and find a p28 ecu then i'll be set... kinda lol... let us know how this ECU conversion goes though, i'm curious to hear the outcome.

RobT5580
03-19-2005, 01:17 PM
I agree OBD-1 is the only way to go and if you guys find a distributor that mounts up your all set. I recently bolted up a 90-93 Teg LS distributor to my B20A after having issues with my JDM one.

Neptune seems to be a nice setup and my tuner is trying to get it but he is to close to someone else to tunes it already so they wont sell it to him. But there are a lot of options once your OBD-1.

I was asked to do a how to on this but decided since im running the AEM EMS that my pinouts wont be everything that you guys will need. The EMS is more forgiving since i can alter pretty much everything from my laptop and its easy to troubleshoot since it shows all the sensor readouts and logs. So basically the hard part is the conversion harness and i didnt have to modify mine much because Boomslang altered everything they could for me. The rest were mostly add-ons (knock, Boost solenoid, etc).

SteveDX89
03-19-2005, 02:41 PM
The only 90 and 91 OBD 1 Honda's were Accords. Integras and Civics changed for the 92 model year. An OBD 0 PR4 from an Integra LS would also be a great bet. You will definitely need to move some pins around to get it to work. I'm not sure how the ECU would only like 2 signals coming from the dizzy tho. The Integra dizzy has 3 sensors. Also, less emission control doesn't mean more power. OBD is all electronic. The only difference is an OBD 1 ECU has more trouble codes built in.

carotman
03-19-2005, 03:01 PM
Well, the Prelude SR 90-91 had the B21A which is OBD-1 :D. I wouldn't bother with any of the Prelude and Accord ECU tough. A civic ECU will do the trick as long as it's OBD-0 or 1 and that you can matche the distributor on the A20A head.

Hash_man_Se_i
03-19-2005, 04:41 PM
So basically the hard part is the conversion harness and i didnt have to modify mine much because Boomslang altered everything they could for me. The rest were mostly add-ons (knock, Boost solenoid, etc).

Boomslang hey?.... so they make a conversion harness for our cars? cuz thats half the battle right there.

RobT5580
03-19-2005, 06:24 PM
Basically its the same as the other OBD-0 to OBD-1 harnesses but they changed a few more pins since theyre not exactly the same pinouts.

adams86lxi
03-19-2005, 06:38 PM
has anyone ever tried out the 86-89 teg ecu out? I would think they would be better then are's and they are still obd 0???

carotman
03-19-2005, 09:24 PM
well, they are really similar to the 88-89 PM6 ECU (Civic SI). I would get the 90-91 PM6 or PR4 ECU if I was going with OBD-0 since those 2 ECU already have an external ROM that is easy to replace. The 88-89 isn't impossible to chip but it takes a few more steps and hacks to make it work.

ICEMAN707
06-06-2005, 08:31 PM
Well, pretty soon I'm about ready to do a b-series engine swap. But first off I wanna stay one step ahead and do the 5spd swap, aftermarket b-series intake manifold, and OBD1 conversion first. Besides, I'm curious to see what these 3 mods do to the a20a3 first before I go all-out b-series on this thing.

But I really want to know more about how do to an OBD-1 conversion. I barely seen anyone running on OBD-1 on this board and I want to know from those who've successfully done it on what exactly I need to do. Would I need the OBD1 conversion harness? I know I need an OBD1 conversion jumper harness to turn my 3 pre-OBD plugs into 2 OBD1 plugs...OR spend time with a wiring diagram - cut off the 3 pre-OBD plugs and wire up the 2 OBD1 plugs so you can use an OBD1 ECU. Much like installing a stereo without a wiring harness. An OBD1 ECU and OBD1 distributor is needed too of course.
I wonder if you could somehow use the 3gee distributor housing for that perfect stock-look fit, but inside would be an OBD1 distributor. My friend told me you could gut out the 90-93 teg distributor and put it in the 3gee distributor housing with a little machine work like boring out the shaft hole a bit.:dunno:

Would be nice to run without that big vaccum box anymore. Cus vaccum sucks! Ironically and literally :lol:

Here's the thread I found. But all that reading and still no final verdict on what to do to run an OBD1 A20A3.
http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=37494

I guess I'll just hold off till I have a b-series engine in the car? That sux cus I was curious as to what this mod could do for the A20 as well as get the conversion wiring taken cared off so I can later just swap the b-series engine in and not have to worry about the wiring anymore. :sad2:

Sentimentally, I wanna make the A20 "go out with a bang"- give it all I can, of sorts in a way that I can make a smooth transition to the b-swap before I say goodbye and say hello to the B-series world. If the OBD1 mod works, I might consider going turbo over the b-swap simply cus of the level of ease.

SteveDX89
06-07-2005, 02:49 AM
First, OBD 1 has 3 plugs too. They just put the last 2 together in conversion harnesses. A conversion harness will make life much simpler. However, you still will need to re-pin your Accord plugs to match OBD 0 Civic/Integra plugs. Then put the conversion harness in. You can also do like you said and just wire the OBD 1 plugs right in. It might get confusing because there are some different things going between the 2 OBD systems. You don't necessarily have to cut the plugs off either. All the wires come out. You can stick a paper clip in the end of the plug to release the wire from it. I've seen that an F22 dizzy will fit. I think from the 90-93 Accords. They're all OBD 1 so you can try those out.

Busted_Blue
06-07-2005, 03:03 AM
http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=18160

ICEMAN707
06-07-2005, 03:25 AM
Hmm I'll try and get a 4gee dizzy next time i visit the salvage yard to get a 4gee MAP sensor to replace the 3gee one. So a 4gee dizzy with an external igniter right? is that 90-91 or 92-93 4gees? Oh well, I'll go and see. Thanks guys.

TheWatcher
06-07-2005, 03:38 AM
ECU tuning for the A20 is absolutely a waste of time. Wait until the B-swap.

Peace.

AccordEpicenter
06-07-2005, 08:19 AM
90-91 accord has internal coil, 92-93 has external coil. Im looking at the possibility of putting obd-1 guts in the accord dizzy... im not sure its worth it yet though

NXRacer
06-07-2005, 10:41 AM
im positative there is a bolt in option for the OBD1 conversion, its just all a matter of finding it. kinda hard to go out and have 10 diff dizzys pulled just so you could try to fit it up.

A20A1
06-07-2005, 10:41 AM
How much sensors will I need to have in order to run a 4th gen dis with carb. Will I need the ECU? If I do I don't want the ecu to throw codes and go into some default timing mode. Or can I just run a Crane or MSD igniton box and use that to adjust timing curves.

I was thinking Map sensor could be installed no problem and same with a TPS. Although the throttle plates on carbs tend to be more at and angle when at idle, something I'll have to adjust for. EGR will need to be converted to the EFI one or bypassed. will I need 2 O2 sensors? Could I get away with resistors in the place of the injectors?
What else would throw a code and cause problems?

Will I need the efi vacuum box? that shouldn't be hard at all since it's a quarter of the vacuum lines found on carbed models.


Playing devil's advocate for a bit... After market caps are available that allow you to run an external coil, I'd like to think that they help the spark scatter as well.

andy

And either run a new cap on the 90 -91 to run an external coil or just let honda fix their mistake and run with the 92-93 with the external.

BTW on my internal coil on my Corolla, I noticed that my tach I hooked up to it doesn't start to move smoothly till I get over 2000 rpm

NXRacer
06-07-2005, 10:49 AM
you wont be able to use the F22 because you'd be needing the vacuum advance. I dont think its possible to use an EFI dizzy with a carb. Seems like it would be easier just to use the stock dizzy if you're sticking with a carb.

A20A1
06-07-2005, 11:03 AM
True but the cam I have in now doesn't pull much vacuum, it would be nice to bypass it.

Does the F22 get rid of the mehanical advance as well?

NXRacer
06-07-2005, 11:14 AM
f22 advance is controlled by the ECU which makes it nice for tuning with the ECU.

ICEMAN707
06-07-2005, 12:36 PM
90-91 accord has internal coil, 92-93 has external coil. Im looking at the possibility of putting obd-1 guts in the accord dizzy... im not sure its worth it yet though

my friend said it's possible. he's done it to his a20a3 before. now he has a 25 psi turbo'ed jdm b20a pushing about 490-500 hp. he's a 65 yr old auto shop teacher with 40 yrs experience building engines and knows his shit. here's a pic of his engine bay:

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/379000-379999/379946_168.jpg

spent about $16,000 on that setup. i drool everytime i look at his setup. now he's building an 800hp h23 (non-vtec) to put into a 5th gen accord.

SteveDX89
06-07-2005, 03:22 PM
Bigger pic please.

NXRacer
06-07-2005, 03:23 PM
and why hasnt this guy joined up here?? I bet rob would be interested in talking to the guy.

A20A1
06-07-2005, 03:26 PM
More then just rob :)

ICEMAN707
06-07-2005, 05:01 PM
and why hasnt this guy joined up here?? I bet rob would be interested in talking to the guy.

LOL he's an old guy, not to mention also a teacher, so he barely has time nor the interest to get online. I'm sure you know he'd be bombarded with questions if he were to join up here.:lol: I'm annoying enough as it is and he still doesn't spill the beans on his secrets. He just kinda gives me hints and always tells me "do the research". He just tells me what works or doesn't, then I go and try for myself.

I'll try and ask him what his setup consists of. He's planning on selling that 3gee to fund his 800hp H23 project. I'll ask how much he wants for it. Like I said, he spent around $16000 building up that car, so I'm guessing the asking price would be around that figure. But can you imagine the feel of a 500hp 3gee?

I'll find some bigger pics and post it up soon.

snoopyloopy
06-07-2005, 05:49 PM
please do, my friend. please do. 500 from a b20a is infuckingcredible. i think i'd be happy(er) we 200 out of my a20. see if you can't get him to co-author a book or something. so at least he makes a bit off of spilling his secrets and can fund his project.

A20A1
06-07-2005, 05:54 PM
please do, my friend. please do. 500 from a b20a is infuckingcredible. i think i'd be happy(er) we 200 out of my a20. see if you can't get him to co-author a book or something. so at least he makes a bit off of spilling his secrets and can fund his project.

He could write/sell the "3G 500 HP Handbook" :)

BASS_racer
06-07-2005, 06:01 PM
He could write/sell the "3G 500 HP Handbook" :)

:werd:

ICEMAN707
06-07-2005, 07:44 PM
Here are some pics that he was willing to send me:

BIGGER PIC OF THE B20A:
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/379000-379999/379946_214_full.jpg

THE PROJECT H23A upped to 2.4L, NOW AN H24A:
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/379000-379999/379946_208_full.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/379000-379999/379946_209_full.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/379000-379999/379946_210_full.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/379000-379999/379946_211_full.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/379000-379999/379946_212_full.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/379000-379999/379946_213_full.jpg

A20A1
06-07-2005, 07:53 PM
EDIT: Oops I thought all the pics were of the B20A
Well I guess my questions are for the H23+1 then. :lol:
Are those extra enrichment? Cooling? or nitrous hard lines?
From how it looks one runs fuel and the other Nitrous... but I wanna be sure.

Stock manifold runners? Ported at all? Any low profile velocity stacks / air-horns where they meet inside the plenum?

ICEMAN707
06-07-2005, 08:00 PM
I think he told me those lines are for No2. I dunno anything else about the engine though. He somehow managed to up the displacement to 2.4L. That's how he's been able to make incredible HP. These engines are boosted and bottle fed. He uses water/methanol injection for cooling rather than an intercooler to maintain boost pressure and engine space. Crazy huh?

snoopyloopy
06-07-2005, 09:02 PM
hey, is his turbo intercooled at all?

ICEMAN707
06-07-2005, 11:05 PM
This guy is awesome. While all of us here at 3geez wonder how to make a powerful setup, this guy has it down to a science. If I had the money, I would buy that 3gee off him. Or have him build me an engine.

Vanilla Sky
06-07-2005, 11:29 PM
the wiring doesn't bother me at all... maybe we can meet up at the 'yard and check some stuff out... heat doesn't bother me, just as going through the yard swapping dizzies between cars doesn't bother me...

btw, what yard do you go to?

A20A1
06-07-2005, 11:33 PM
This guy is awesome. While all of us here at 3geez wonder how to make a powerful setup, this guy has it down to a science. If I had the money, I would buy that 3gee off him. Or have him build me an engine.


even better ask if he's hiring. :)

SteveDX89
06-08-2005, 10:33 AM
The best question ever is when can this thread get back on topic. :dunno:

SteveDX89
06-08-2005, 11:23 AM
A20 dizzys don't have points.

ICEMAN707
06-08-2005, 11:47 AM
has anyone ever tried chipping the a20 ECU that way you dont need to have OBD1 to have tunability?

NXRacer
06-08-2005, 12:24 PM
has anyone ever tried chipping the a20 ECU that way you dont need to have OBD1 to have tunability?
thats not the point. the A20 dizzys are vacuum advance which severly limits your tunablilty. With the OBD1 dizzy's, they are electronically controlled so you have far more control over timing.

A20A1
06-08-2005, 01:42 PM
Ahyone with experience with these guys?

http://www.gems.co.uk/

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So we are OBD 0 ? cause pgmfi has a small forum there on obd0
http://forum.pgmfi.org/
http://www.superhonda.com/forum/index.php

NXRacer
06-08-2005, 01:49 PM
we are pre-OBD which = OBD0.

SteveDX89
06-08-2005, 02:24 PM
Yes, we're OBD 0 however A20 dizzys are vac advance. You have no way to control the timing using ECU tuning on an A20 ECU/dizzy. Why go through that trouble when an AFC will do the same thing. They tune the air/fuel ratio only and not timing.

NXRacer
06-08-2005, 02:29 PM
didnt i just say that like 2 posts up? :uh: :D

Justin86
06-08-2005, 04:28 PM
ok the swap is pretty easy with the exception of the dizzy and tuning. You need a SOHC OBD-1 dizzy, the conversion harness, and the ECU(F22 or B18 ECU is your easiest option, the civic P06 requires the fuel/timing tables to be changed for it to run proper)
For the carb I have seen a B18 switched to dual Webers, but I'm not sure what he did with the dizzy and ECU. I guess if you set it up right you could run it with carbs, maybe talk to the guys at PGMFI.org to see if it could be possible with like uberdata or an aftermarket standalone.

Now with the B20 and H24 I'm supprised the guy didn't design a better exhaust manifold esp with the B20 and to run the stock radiator on top on it, crazy. Dropping in an aluminum civic rad would leave more room for the turbo and a better flowing manifold I bet he could get out another 50hp at full boost. He made a custom intake mani but went with the cheapest log manifold design? Exxept for the manifold I give him props esp with the methanol injection, a very good idea esp for on the steets. Just read about an EVO8 with methonal injection, put out 450whp at 23PSI on pump gas, the methonal helps alot!

ICEMAN707
06-08-2005, 04:42 PM
He says he is willing to sell the 3gee for about $10k-$12k to fund his H24 800hp dyno queen. He is still on the research and experimenting phase on that engine. But the b20a 3gee is just one nasty beast. If I had the money, I would get it ASAP. Nothing like having a 500hp 3gee that could kill most tuned cars on the street, and for a fraction of the price.

To put all that power to the ground, he is using a helical LSD from a ITR and a Clutchmasters twin disc solid hub clutch & aluminum flywheel combo rated for 600hp. He's not using NO2 on the b20a actually. It's putting out about 400-500hp as it is depending on the boost he's running. The methanol injection is his secret to keeping that engine cool and happy at 24psi.

SteveDX89
06-08-2005, 05:52 PM
didnt i just say that like 2 posts up? :uh: :D

Yes but some people don't get it. Plus I added another point. :)

ICEMAN707
06-08-2005, 07:19 PM
didnt i just say that like 2 posts up? :uh: :D

Yeah sorry guys, I disregarded the dizzy being vac advanced again and not timing tunable. My bad.

NXRacer
06-13-2005, 02:11 PM
a little FYI - i've been talking to these guys http://www.jkobd.com/ who are currently working on an OBD1 conversion harness for the 3g's. I'll let you know if/when i hear they have the kit made and ready to ship.

ICEMAN707
06-13-2005, 07:46 PM
that's great NXracer. 3geez have really come a long way. thanks to this site and all its 3gee enthusiasts. thanks mostly to all the moderators! watch, 2 or 3 yrs from now, there will be more parts made for this car if the interest keeps rising. so everybody keep pimpin those geez!

NXRacer
06-14-2005, 12:11 PM
i've been emailing one of the guys at that site and he said they're working on an 87 with a GSR swap. He didnt say if it was a GSR motor swap or just using the GSR dizzy. I'm trying to get as much info as possible. i'll relay it as i get it.

NXRacer
06-14-2005, 12:21 PM
OBDII started in 96

ICEMAN707
06-14-2005, 08:30 PM
well there was an integra GSR for the 90-93 model year too. it used the rare b17a VTEC motor. that one used OBD1. or it could be a 94-95 early model 3rd gen teg GSR.

bobafett
08-01-2005, 07:22 PM
caleb any word on the 3g specific conversion harness?

Slipknotcraig133
08-01-2005, 07:56 PM
Yea heard anything on that harness.

Immeraufdemhund
08-06-2005, 08:56 AM
I have an extra 4g with a good pt3 ecu dizzy, head, and all the wiring if anyone is interested. I have a friend who has an a20a1 that i'd like to convert over to this f22a1. But i'm thinking that i'd like to just fit other things on. I'm looking at the intake manifold but it looks like the size of the runners are significantly larger on the f22a1 than on the a20. I'm thinking that I could just port it to match, but the egr runs through the head on the f22a motor were as there is a pipe on the a20's. That would be an issue. There is also a water jacket that goes through the intake and head on the f22. I'm fixing to go get the runners measured... guess i could do that now.

ok...hmm looking at the intake manifold with the timing belt on the left and tranny on the right.
_/ \_
/ \
|5.1cm| 4.3cm | 5.1 |
\____/

the height is 3.6 cm for just the oval and an extra 1.1cm with the fuel injector hole.

the bottom bolts i think are going to be the problem, but i dont have an extra a20a head or gasket. the bottom bolts on the f22 are 8.7cm apart and 8.6cm on top. the distance on height between the bolts c/c is 6cm.

Immeraufdemhund
08-06-2005, 09:33 AM
I remember taking out the wires for the 3g and it is way different for the 4g. the 4g disconnects mainly on the tranny side of the engine bay and then also disconnects the fuel injector resistor box on the timing belt side. the 3g i believe disconects on the timing belt side and just wraps all the way around and just has a few wires the connect to the tranny side.... so that might be out of the question. The pin out on the ecu is kinda long and isn't very specific on the haynes manuel, but i could figure it out if anyone wants it. seems like the b connector is the big one cause it connects nearly the entire dizzy. but the igniter goes to a22, the coil, ground, dash, and power... hmm i didn't know the f22 had a crank, cylinder, and TDC sensors

w00tw00t111
08-06-2005, 11:44 AM
I have a p75 teg 5speed ecu but, have yet to buy a dizzy. The distributor I was looking at was a 92 Accord. Trying to remember what I read about it but, I believe there is 3 connectors on the dizzy. For that to connect to the a20 what all would be involved. On the other thread about obd conversion it sounded as if this dizzy would be our best bet.

Immeraufdemhund
08-06-2005, 02:23 PM
does anyone have the wires and what they go to for the 3g? i can only find the 4g cause i have it in front of me. It seems that with the 3g accord it is missing the crank sensor, but it has the cyl sensor and the tdc sensor. so looks like a minimum of 2 wires having to be run, then also finding out what connector on the ecu to put them on. On the FAQ sheet it doesn't list it for either the 87 3g, or the 89 3g. but what's interesting that the TDC sensor and the cyl sensor are swaped on the 2 ecu's.

thegreatdane
08-07-2005, 08:56 AM
interesting that the TDC sensor and the cyl sensor are swaped on the 2 ecu's.

I think that's a typo, although I cant say for sure since we dont have the 88-89 type ecu here. As for the wires for the ignition you would need to run two shielded wires for the crank sensor and 1 wire for the igniter. And since you're converting to obd-1 you need to take care of some other stuff as well like swap out ecu harness plugs and putting all wires at the correct pin locations for obd-1.

RobT5580
08-07-2005, 09:54 AM
Thats not a typo they are swapped and greatdane the obd conversion harness will take care of the connectors so you dont have to swap them over. Besides they use different pins so you would have to re-pin the entire harness and swap connectors which will be a pain. I considered doing this because i can get new pins and the special crimpers from work (Acura) but i already have the harness so i probably wont bother.

Immeraufdemhund
08-10-2005, 02:45 PM
well so much for the intake idea. Guess sticking to the modified b-series manifold will just have to suffice. As for the dizzy would this work for a carbed motor? it doesn't have an ecu to speak of, I wonder if just pushing out the pins and putting in a obd1 computer then run the appropriate wires to the Dizzy and call it good. any ideas on that or is this an efi only thing?

Justin86
08-12-2005, 05:16 PM
still the biggest prob I have had is getting a chipped ECU for a decent price. I tried chipping my P06 with very little sucess,, and that continues to be the only thing holding me back. I have tried most of the stock ECU's besides any VTEC one and the P75 but nothing has run good period.

Robs89LXi
08-12-2005, 08:45 PM
still the biggest prob I have had is getting a chipped ECU for a decent price. I tried chipping my P06 with very little sucess,, and that continues to be the only thing holding me back. I have tried most of the stock ECU's besides any VTEC one and the P75 but nothing has run good period.

Justin, so you have done the conversion using the P-75? What do you mean by it is not running good? Can you explain?

bobafett
08-13-2005, 11:41 AM
ok so i have talked to jason the author of turboEDIT (obd0 tuning software), and he recommended for me to use a pm6 (90-91, NOT 88-89) civic/crx SI ecu... we would need an electronic advance dizzy. but since its OBD0 > OBD0, im not sure if we would need a harness or not, but we could still buy a jkobd.com 0 > 0 harness so we dont have to hack up our wiring.

and this softawre does have timing control. might be the easy way out. but we do still have to solve the lame distributor problem. :)

Justin86
08-13-2005, 04:47 PM
I have tried most of the ECU's I could get my hands on and the P-75 is the only non-VTEC one I can't find. Right now I have the 4g accord ECU and it runs pretty rich (12:1 idle/WOT) then way to lean at little throttle angle (above 17:1 highest my gauge reads.)
But still we will most likely need to still chip the ECU and change the maps to suit our engine. I don't think any stock ECU will fully suit the drivablity needs of our cars.


yea you could do that with electronic advance OBD-0 but some of the ECU pins will be different and prob have to add a couple wires for the electornic advance, not sure on the dizy prob not a direct bolt on.

Robs89LXi
08-13-2005, 06:08 PM
I have tried most of the ECU's I could get my hands on and the P-75 is the only non-VTEC one I can't find. Right now I have the 4g accord ECU and it runs pretty rich (12:1 idle/WOT) then way to lean at little throttle angle (above 17:1 highest my gauge reads.)
But still we will most likely need to still chip the ECU and change the maps to suit our engine. I don't think any stock ECU will fully suit the drivablity needs of our cars.

According to Darryl (Openloop), the P-75's base map must be close to ours, as he claims to have very good driveability when he made the cange. That is what I have right now, but have yet to get a chance to make the conversion. What is Guaynabo using?

bobafett
08-14-2005, 09:24 AM
damnit. we are so close!!!
i dont even care about drivability with teh stock maps. if your not going to tune it, whats the point... keep running the pj0, at least it knows what to do. we're gonna have to tune these, and thats the reason i awnt to jump up, for the electronic timing control, and the lovely software we can use...

something about 2 step launches, and soft limiters that i just really like! :)

Justin86
08-14-2005, 09:54 AM
I think he said he was using the candian P-75 the only major difference is the lack of the electrical load dector, which will cause an irattic idle, but it can be easily dissable with uberdata. Well if Darryl said he had good results with the P-75 then thats what everyone should start with, since I haven't found an alternative. Well lets see if I can find a P-75 for a decent price and get it chipped.

gp02a0083
08-14-2005, 06:44 PM
well this months SCC issue with the h22 swap in the crx made me think about the company that supplied the harness , i nkow its alot of $$ probally for a harness made for the accords we have but it will probally be less of a pain in the a$$ when all said and done

bobafett
08-14-2005, 09:40 PM
jkobd.com is already working on one. :)

Immeraufdemhund
08-18-2005, 07:16 PM
although it's a lot of wires, i dont see why it would be all that big of a pain to switch out the harness by removing the pins from the accord harness and match it up with the p75. This way we dont have to have 2 different harnesses with 87 and 89.

and i agree no one should try to do an ecu and dizzy swap without wanting to tune it closer to the engine. That's the whole idea of swapping something. Yah it would be nice to be able to just bolt on a part and have extra power, but well with honda's lack of compatibility it's going to be hard. Let's just face it we dont have a chevy, we have a honda.

I'd love to be able to shove the c27 from a legend into my car, but i know that it's just not feasable in the 3g... (although i'm looking into it for the 4g cause the 5g has one and the 95 has a c27, but it's auto. )

keep tuning and keep trying without inovations we have to keep paying an arm and a leg to get performance.

mykwikcoupe
08-18-2005, 08:03 PM
well Im no good with turboedit or the other pre obd uning functions but with uberdata it seems if you tuned with a wdieband pretty much no matter what ecu you went with as long as its non vtec you can change the fuel, timing curves to match what you want. all you need is a base program to start the engine and tune from there. If I remember right rob had to upgrade to do his hondata setup. From what i gather its a conversion harness(150 bucks), the ecu itself(100bucks), the epromm and emulator for realtime tuning and datalogging(300 bucks), and time on a dyno to tune with someone who knows the program not the engine. Am I wrong here?

bobafett
08-18-2005, 08:04 PM
yeah and then u need the distributor and have it wired properly. that seems to be the main problem at this point.

Vanilla Sky
08-18-2005, 08:15 PM
i'm still looking to do this with a grassroots junkyard approach.

NeoCloud
09-13-2005, 06:37 PM
that is very true, just ask any 4th gen owner, those internal coils and the ignitor modules fail very commonly, and at like $150 or so per ignitor from honda... damn... Oh yea and Hondata aint cheap at all
Talk about it,I know honda isnt cheap,I have to replace a 300 dollar distributor(with labor costs 353 dollars)just because the module went out,and the reman-d distrubtor doesnt come with a module,and taking the old one apart is impossible without it falling apart and needing new little parts like pins and things.I dont know what to do with my car anymore,and if I should fix it.This is the 6th time I have asked you guys about a problem,lol.

A20A1
09-25-2005, 08:58 PM
2 shielded wires going directly to the ECU...The colors are Blue-Yellow and Blue-Green.

You can use the cold advance solenoid wire as the igniter wire, that way you don't need to add a wire for it. Since you'll be using an electronic advance distributor, you will not need the cold advance solenoid anymore.

I will post a wiring how-to tomorrow about this :)

Thanks Carot.

I didn't realize the Crank Angle/Position Sensor was inside the distributor.

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smufguy
09-26-2005, 03:31 AM
Thanks Carot.

I didn't realize the Crank Angle/Position Sensor was inside the distributor.

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was'nt our TDC sensor located inside our distributor also? i thought the Crank angle was actualy our TDC sensor.

bobafett
09-26-2005, 08:36 AM
well i will let you guys know what it takes to fit a 4g dizzy to a carbed accord head. hopefully the bolt placement on efi head would be the same, so that the placement on carbed head will also apply to efi head, but i have not compared the two side by side, so i dont know for sure.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8000837308

A20A1
09-26-2005, 09:54 AM
well i will let you guys know what it takes to fit a 4g dizzy to a carbed accord head. hopefully the bolt placement on efi head would be the same, so that the placement on carbed head will also apply to efi head, but i have not compared the two side by side, so i dont know for sure.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8000837308



This is the only difference.

EFI (in my hand)
CARB (on head)

Note that the EFI Distributor is heavier then the CARB distributor, I assume that is the reason for the extra support. So it may be a good idea to use an EFI Bearing on the Carb Head if the 4G distributor is just as heavy.
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http://www.3geez.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3393

bobafett
09-26-2005, 10:00 AM
awesome. thanks for that pic.
although the image makes it hard to tell, im assuming the other 2 holes line up properly. ;-)

edit. actually i could just take that peice off, and use the EFI one if i wanted to, lol... :-)

A20A1
09-26-2005, 10:03 AM
Yeah I edited my post above... I think the EFI one would be better.

bobafett
09-26-2005, 10:08 AM
of course since i am getting a custom bracket made to hold it in place, i might just have it utilize the bolts on top that you can see that go vertical. that way either EFI or carbed people could take advantage of the template. i just hope that it doesnt involve much modification to the head or the thermostat housing.

Mike do u know if there are any options to do something different with the thermostat housing... i thought the thermostat was in a different spot on carbed cars, any advice, or am i just going to be stuck with it?

bobafett
09-26-2005, 10:37 AM
yeah i would appreciate that. all i have is my EFI head which is on my car.

the carbed head, which i am using on the build (and which will be recieving the distributor) is at the machine shop, and i cant get to it freely. :-(

Robs89LXi
09-26-2005, 10:48 AM
What I'm thinking about doing is making a bracket to mate the 4G dizzy to my EFI head. It will be a 3/4" wide arc of aluminum that would have three holes in it, corresponding to the three mounting holes on the EFI head/block. Once this is bolted in place, three more oval shaped holes could now be drilled into it to correspond to the 4G dizzy, so as to allow it to be bolted to the bracket. The problem is that the thickness of the bracket would put the dizzy out too much, so the head/block mounting points would have to be ground down/notched enough to compensate for this. The dizzy shaft would also have to be reindexed to match the correct firing positions, of course.

bobafett
09-26-2005, 10:53 AM
rob, i am thinking that is what the machine shop is going to do for me as well. my dizzy should be shipping out soon, and i will keep you guys posted to the solution that we come up with for it.

if anyone has an "extra" efi distributor bearing, or whatever that peice is called, i could really use it, and it would ensure that whatever adapter i use could be applicable to either efi or carbed heads.

but rob i am on the same page as you, i was thinking that whatever we use as an adapter will be way too thick, and then it will keep the dizzy to far away. as well as reindexing it . :(

Robs89LXi
09-26-2005, 12:16 PM
but rob i am on the same page as you, i was thinking that whatever we use as an adapter will be way too thick, and then it will keep the dizzy to far away. as well as reindexing it . :(

Yeah, but like I said, just grind/cut the mounting points down a bit, and it should be plenty good. As long as it is not too thick a material, you should leave plenty enough thread for the bolts/stud.

Didn't someone on here already do the reindexing? How about sharing some more info on that? Thanks.

A20A1
09-26-2005, 03:59 PM
I dunno you guys, form the looks of it what Openloop did (On the first page) was remove the EFI mounting stud by the thermostat housing and put a bolt in it's place then made a metal flat bar that went from the bolt to the upper mounting slot on the 4G distributor.

I'm just a dumd dumb... :)

Well I got the pis of the two thermostat housings, I thought they had different lengths and sizes. :(

http://www.3geez.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4509

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Swap_File
09-27-2005, 09:19 PM
I was making a junkyard hunting list for this project. This is what I found.

As stated in the first post, the F22 distributor can be grabbed off of the 4th generation accord, as well as any of the other F22 series engines listed here (http://www.qtronics.net/HondaEngineSpecs.htm) (I will also probably grab the alternator and maybe climate control for the 4G swap (http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=30936) ). The 90-91 Accord has an internal coil, 92-93 has an external coil. The internal can be made external with a new cap. External is better, because the internal can overheat and stop working.

For the ECU, according to the data here (http://www.pgmfi.org/twiki/bin/view/Library/EcuFamilies), only the 94-95 Integra will work. Anything newer than that will be OBD2, which is not useable for us. I also plan on grabbing the 4 wire O2 sensor, and cutting off the OBD-1 plugs so I can build a harness with an extra A20 ECU I have sitting around.

P72 94-95 OBD1 Integra GSR
P74/75 94-95 OBD1 Integra RS/LS/GS
(Apparently they can all be programmed with each others BINs, and tuned and tweaked as needed)

These OBD-1 ECUs work with most software and data logging programs I found. They can also control IAB which the A20 stock intake needs.

I was very impressed with the software that is available. This should work as good (or probably better) as my previous plan of building a MegaSquirt ECU, and it will be cheaper and easier.

bobafett
09-27-2005, 09:51 PM
yeah thats a good summary of our option.... hes pretty much right... now its just a matter of a few more members throwing this together and documenting problems etc...

A20A1
09-27-2005, 10:12 PM
yeah thats a good summary of our option.... hes pretty much right... now its just a matter of a few more members throwing this together and documenting problems etc...

Yup, I'm hoping this wil get worked out... Tossing the vacuum and mechanical advance for electronic advance controls cuts out a little more strain in doing a Carb Turbo setup. Ever since getting confimation that ECU and Distributor could still be used with carbs. http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=46643 I've been very hopeful that well see a carb turbo setup running on a 3G.

I have seen the lude with A-series carb turbo... but it seems like we could streamline it more.

bobafett
09-28-2005, 05:55 AM
definetly... well i don't think there is too much i can do to help, since carbs make no damn sense to me, and my brain tells me it "should" be scary to turbo a carbed car, but i know its done all the time, i just dont understand how the motor would last without all the precise control that you get with tuning your EFI system.

also what is the benifit of turboing a carbed setup, vs switching to EFI and turboing your car? just curious since i seriously dont know much about carbs...

A20A1
09-28-2005, 09:29 AM
also what is the benifit of turboing a carbed setup, vs switching to EFI and turboing your car? just curious since i seriously dont know much about carbs...

bobafett
09-28-2005, 09:42 AM
wow thats awesome! ;-)

Swap_File
09-30-2005, 04:32 PM
I did some more investigation on OBD1 Honda ECUs, as I had never worked with them before. This is what I found:

If someone does not want to solder inside their ECU, a P75 or P72 ECU would be the only solution (like I said above). I believe both have IAB control, but some posts on pgmfi said the P75 did not.

If someone does have the ability (or knows someone who does) to solder, almost any "92-95 "OBD1" Civics and Integras" ECU from this list (http://www.pgmfi.org/twiki/bin/view/Library/EcuFamilies) should work. This is because all of these ECUs can run each others code. The only difference is in what hardware they natively support. You can add IAB by soldering on some parts, as described here (http://www.pgmfi.org/twiki/bin/view/Library/AddIABToP28). You would also need to get an EPROM Programmer (http://www.willem.org/) to make a chip that supports IAB, and that uses the correct maps (a P72/P75 map would probably be a good starting point).

These ECUs also support modifications for full throttle shifting, launch control, and boost cut.

Getting a board with a knock sensor (or adding a stock Honda knock board) really isn't helpful because they are made to detect knocks in aluminum blocks, not cast iron.

The OBD1 Prelude and Accord ECUs listed on that page use different code, and will not yet work with most of the software that is available. There is work being done on the Prelude P13 board, which does natively support EGR, knock, IAB, etc, but it might be a while.

Robs89LXi
09-30-2005, 06:07 PM
Problem is, our IAB is vacuum controlled. I guess some options would be to remove the butterfly, use a B-series intake (if it would fit), or maybe invert the funtion of the diaphram controller to open with positive pressure instead. Anyone know what RPM our secondaries open at? If it happens to coincide with when your turbo starts spooling, that would be nice :). I'm not sure if software such as Uberdata, Chrome etc. allow for you to disable the IAB function or not, but I bet they do.

Swap_File
09-30-2005, 07:26 PM
Oh, I never thought about how IAB was vacuum controled. :uh:

And yes, the software does basically allow enabling and disabling of IAB by what BIN you run (as well as enable/disable of VTEC or just about anything else). That way the ECU won't throw a code when put in a different vehicle like our 3rd generation Accord.

Robs89LXi
09-30-2005, 08:28 PM
Swap File, do you have experience with ECU programming?

Swap_File
09-30-2005, 11:31 PM
I do not have experience in programming ECUs myself. I hope I didn’t mislead anyone into thinking I know what I am doing. ;)

I just spent the last week reading the PGMFI wiki and forums, and started playing around with the available software. I plan on building one of those Willem EPROM programmers soon and seeing what I can get to work.

Robs89LXi
10-01-2005, 10:02 AM
Yeah, but that might be hard to do with boost (positive pressure), unless you know of another vacuum source. Are you sure about that 5000rpm? You are probably right, but it sure seems like mine comes on earlier than that. Either way, if we can somehow invert the diaphram that controls the butterfly valve, then it would have the same function using positive pressure. The solenoid might also be able to be ECU controlled using software, so that rpm could also be controlled. Hmmm....

Robs89LXi
10-01-2005, 10:41 PM
Wow, how did I miss that post? Lot's of good information there; thanks.
Three questions though:
1. Are our butterflies all-or-non, or do they open/close gradually?
2. Has anyone tried the complete electronic route, using solenoid/servo?
3. Know of any cars that use electronic controlled secondaries?

A20A1
10-01-2005, 10:49 PM
Depends on the:
Tightness of the spring VS How fast vacuum bleeds from the holding cannister.

Robs89LXi
10-01-2005, 11:12 PM
Right, but what I mean is, are they designed to be either open or closed, with no in between, or are they designed to run partially open dependent on RPM? In other words, is there variable vacuum, or either vacuum/no vacuum on the diaphragm?

bradSA138
10-02-2005, 12:21 AM
this is a TOTAL noob question, but yet it baffles me; I know there is an ancient conversion kit to convert the 1G CRX to OBD-1, but I would like to know if there is one available for the 3gee?

SteveDX89
10-02-2005, 06:24 AM
Search.

shepherd79
10-02-2005, 08:11 AM
No there are no kits available for our cars.
Everything will have to be made custom.
look at the research section of the board. we have entire thread about it.

bobafett
10-02-2005, 09:07 AM
ill give you the short answer.

1. 92-93 accord f22a distributor with external coil (112 shipped, distributor king, on ebay)
2. jkobd obd0-obd1 conversion harness (around 100)
3. p75 (94-95 integra non vtec) ecu (135 chipped, www.xenocron.com)
4. tuning software (doesnt run perfect out of the box, FREEEEE)
5. socketed ecu if you plan to chip it and burn new eproms ( see above, or do it yourself )
6. probably have to add a few wires, or change a few pin locations to get the conversion harnes to actually work. (free)

annnnd of course you have to modify a bunch of shit to get the 4g dizzy on. :) (freee, but im having a shop do it so its done right)

Accordtheory
10-02-2005, 09:18 AM
:) (freee, but im having a shop do it so its done right)

ha ha.. damn, that's funny shit, every time any shop has seen my car, they swarm around the engine bay like "...wtf..??"

bobafett
10-02-2005, 12:46 PM
lol this is at a machine shop. not a damn rice shop. to them its just metal that needs to get fabbed. they dont care what car or engine bay it is! ;-)

modu03
10-02-2005, 04:12 PM
this is a TOTAL noob question, but yet it baffles me; I know there is an ancient conversion kit to convert the 1G CRX to OBD-1, but I would like to know if there is one available for the 3gee?

um... our cars are obd-1. you need to go obd-2 ... it would not be worth the work in my opinion...

why do you want to do this anyway?

bobafett
10-02-2005, 05:08 PM
muahahah .... NO

we are pre-obd / obd-0

if we convert to obd-1 or obd-2 (not sure why we would bother to go to obd2) we could run socketed obd1 ecu's which have tunable electronic spark control. ;-) which means we arent limited by vacuum advancing distributors. this is especially useful for guys who are booosting, because they need a lot more control over their fuel and spark maps. and theres several free programs out there with great tuning capabilities and great support. :)

SteveDX89
10-02-2005, 05:53 PM
um... our cars are obd-1.

Hahahaha.

hot-87-hatch
10-03-2005, 01:48 PM
I know a lot of theory. But I don't yet fully understand electronics for this car. From what I understand, from the posts below is I can get a p75 cpu and should be able to fit it to the harness for the a20a with a slightly modified adapter harness.

I am replacing with a newer jdm a20. I will be using a b18 mani, tb, injectors and fuel rail. (hopefully) I would also like to eliminate the black mystery box as many vacuum lines as possible.

Would this affect how the p75 operates?

Would it be easier or even possible to run the motor with the whole teg harness, provided I switch out the sensors to match?

Will switching the injectors cause a problem?

How easy is it to tune and change fuel maps with this ecu?

I'm also switching to a manual transmission. And a turbo is being planned for much later on. Sorry if I sound naive on the subject but I am. What I want for now is a reliable n/a car with a moderate increase in power. But this desired result is second in priority. I really want to get into tuning and working fuel maps and all that shit. Which is why this whole thing with the obd1 conversion is so alluring. Thanks for your help.

One more question, Exactly what kind of modification is needed to fit f22 "dizzy".

Justin86
10-03-2005, 03:58 PM
he he he he rice shops and fab shops.......... NIGHT AND DAY difference, and regular mechanics hate to see modded cars(engine wise)

Ichiban
10-05-2005, 06:14 PM
heeheehee!

I can't wait to take my 2.0 fuel injected 82 hatch to the local honda dealer for a tuneup.

btw my distributer on my a20 is smashed, anyone got one for cheap?

bobafett
10-05-2005, 06:21 PM
when i finish my swap ill sell u mine... but who knows when that will be!

guaynabo89
10-06-2005, 12:09 PM
I know a lot of theory. But I don't yet fully understand electronics for this car. From what I understand, from the posts below is I can get a p75 cpu and should be able to fit it to the harness for the a20a with a slightly modified adapter harness.

I am replacing with a newer jdm a20. I will be using a b18 mani, tb, injectors and fuel rail. (hopefully) I would also like to eliminate the black mystery box as many vacuum lines as possible.

Would this affect how the p75 operates?

Would it be easier or even possible to run the motor with the whole teg harness, provided I switch out the sensors to match?

Will switching the injectors cause a problem?

How easy is it to tune and change fuel maps with this ecu?

I'm also switching to a manual transmission. And a turbo is being planned for much later on. Sorry if I sound naive on the subject but I am. What I want for now is a reliable n/a car with a moderate increase in power. But this desired result is second in priority. I really want to get into tuning and working fuel maps and all that shit. Which is why this whole thing with the obd1 conversion is so alluring. Thanks for your help.

One more question, Exactly what kind of modification is needed to fit f22 "dizzy".

The black box and vacuum line removal depend on whet ecu you run. some ecus still use constant vacum chambers and such, like the 4th gen cords.


the injectors have to have the correct resistor. you can use the stock efi injectors. they flow the same as the b16-18. (240)

If you can look at wiring diagrams for both cars you plan on using parts from(in ur case 87 accord and 94-95ls teg) then you should have no problem with wiring. If they look like a jumbled mess , study up until you feel comfortable.

hot-87-hatch
10-06-2005, 01:48 PM
I've been in contact with chris harris at xenocron and to run an obd1 ecu he says I must change from dpfi to mpfi. I know what these acronyms but what is involved in the switch? thanks for your reply.



The black box and vacuum line removal depend on whet ecu you run. some ecus still use constant vacum chambers and such, like the 4th gen cords.


the injectors have to have the correct resistor. you can use the stock efi injectors. they flow the same as the b16-18. (240)

If you can look at wiring diagrams for both cars you plan on using parts from(in ur case 87 accord and 94-95ls teg) then you should have no problem with wiring. If they look like a jumbled mess , study up until you feel comfortable.

guaynabo89
10-06-2005, 03:27 PM
I've been in contact with chris harris at xenocron and to run an obd1 ecu he says I must change from dpfi to mpfi. I know what these acronyms but what is involved in the switch? thanks for your reply.


ur car is already mpfi

hot-87-hatch
10-06-2005, 03:41 PM
sweet!!!! that's good news. Anybody know what the difference is?

guaynabo89
10-06-2005, 04:01 PM
sweet!!!! that's good news. Anybody know what the difference is?

dpfi is setup like a carb basicly with only one injector usually

gfrg88
11-19-2005, 08:07 PM
[QUOTE][a little FYI - i've been talking to these guys http://www.jkobd.com/ who are currently working on an OBD1 conversion harness for the 3g's. I'll let you know if/when i hear they have the kit made and ready to ship/QUOTE]

any updates one the harness :sadwave: or anything else....

Justin86
11-19-2005, 09:09 PM
ok here's the scoop on coversion harness............

yea I'm going to be working with Jason K to make a harness for us 3G's and possiblly for 2g lude, will see how it goes.

Accordtheory
11-19-2005, 09:42 PM
I have that, from rywire and jkobd's little tag team effort..
The rest of it is still in progress though..

bobafett
11-20-2005, 09:00 AM
now are you going to make sure they make one that will fit an 86 AND and 88+ or will they just have to make 2 different parts?

Accordtheory
11-20-2005, 10:17 AM
Jason supposedly has the 89 pinout, but it doesn't have the pin to the solenoid valve for the 2 stage intake manifold, a key difference between 86/87 and 88/89. I went over the entire pinout on the phone with ryan from rywire, and all the other pins match with my 87 though. I suspect he actually has the 86-87 pinout.

Me and legend master are the only people I know of that have this setup, and neither one of us has tested it out. My engine harness isn't finished yet either. I'm going to have to send it back, I guess..

Kabuki
12-14-2005, 11:51 AM
I thought I might pipe up here and state that I am experienced with ECU chipping and programming. I'm also a Moderator over at PGMFI.org and the AccordWagonClub.com. I also figured that I would extend my offer of chipping services for OBD1 (and some OBD0) ECUs for $50 (including return shipping), that I had made to the AWC folks.

bobafett
12-21-2005, 11:31 AM
just FYI ur being a prick about this.. but im feeling 'very' nice today!

AFAIK there is no ecu that will be easier to wire in than the other... its just a matter of converting your wiring to obd1. for distrubutor, yes you will have to swap to an obd1 distributor, it has been decided that 4g external coil dizzy is probably the best bet. i a brand new one for sale, 100 shipped if u are interested.

but there is no 'best ecu for 200whp' u will have to retune the ecu to run boost. dont count on just wiring it up and driving off. :(

obd1 swap:
OBD1 Distributor
OBD0 > OBD1 Wiring harness
OBD1 Socketable ECU
4 wire o2 sensor
also might be easy if u have obd1 intake manifold with appropriate sensors, map tps etc
also there is a VSS issue to work out, i think carotman or moonscryer figured out a solution.

also u will need appropriate tools to TUNE your socketed chipped ECU. i will let you figure that one out on your own.

ps, there is SOOO MUCH about this topic already on the forum, i shouldnt have even posted this. seriously, you need to search a little bit for this info, it has already been discussed in depth.

newaccorddriver
12-25-2005, 12:53 AM
im close enough to being able to convert to OBD1 soon. i just picked up a D series distributor for cheap. the only problem is it didnt come with the igniter or the coil. if i were to get those 2 items, how would i wire them into my car, or would i just splice the connectors from the old coil and ignitier?

thegreatdane
12-25-2005, 03:08 AM
The D series distributors I've seen all had internal coil and igniter.
You'll still have to wire the igniter to the ecu along with the extra sensor in the distributor.

What D engine is that distributor from?

newaccorddriver
12-25-2005, 09:09 AM
i believe its from a 92-95 civic(guy told me it was an OBD1 distributor).

i was only wondering if i got them cause i think the hondaautomotivepart picture showed me an external coil/igniter

EDIT: what extra sensor is in there anyways?

Swap_File
12-31-2005, 02:00 PM
From this ( http://www.3geez.com/showpost.php?p=434014&postcount=8 ) information, I knew that I needed either a TD-31U (internal coil) or TD-52U (external coil) distributor for my OBD-1 swap.

When I looked online for a TD-52U, TD-59U was listed as an alternate part number many places, or places listed them together, or used the names interchangeably.

I recently got a used TD-59U distributor, but could not get it to fit. It seems to always hit the thermostat housing. Am I doing something wrong, or is the TD-59U just not a direct replacement for the TD-52U?

http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/4241/car001large3yr.th.jpg (http://img467.imageshack.us/my.php?image=car001large3yr.jpg)http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/966/car002large9kk.th.jpg (http://img467.imageshack.us/my.php?image=car002large9kk.jpg)http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/6638/car003large0fg.th.jpg (http://img467.imageshack.us/my.php?image=car003large0fg.jpg)

bobafett
12-31-2005, 04:31 PM
hahah thats the point. they dont fit without serious modding. :) i have determined that i would have to cut off all the legs from the 4g accord dizzy, and build new mounting points. i am considering just doing a megasquirt ecu setup. :)

A20A1
12-31-2005, 05:24 PM
Awe, did you hurt your hand swap?

I thought someone said they cut and welded the arms/legs...

newaccorddriver
12-31-2005, 05:49 PM
hahah thats the point. they dont fit without serious modding. :) i have determined that i would have to cut off all the legs from the 4g accord dizzy, and build new mounting points. i am considering just doing a megasquirt ecu setup. :)


if i can get ahold of a spare head, im gonna try and modify my D series distributor by grinding down some of the metal but keeping the legs in tact so i can still bolt them on. i can picture it in my head, but i need another 3g distributor to compare them. once i modified it enough to bolt it on properly, then ill start on the wiring. until then, all i can do is the research and parts gathering

Swap_File
12-31-2005, 05:59 PM
Awe, did you hurt your hand swap?

Yep, managed to cut myself the last time I was at the junkyard, ended up with 6 stitches, but it was worth it. :) I got the B181B intake, a OBD1 PR4 ECU with harness, and an intercooler that day.



I thought someone said they cut and welded the arms/legs...

Hmm, I will have to look at it some more, the problem I ran into was right here:
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/598/car003large0fg0fq.th.jpg (http://img398.imageshack.us/my.php?image=car003large0fg0fq.jpg)
(Circled in red)

The legs really don't bother me as much as the housing of the distributor hitting the place the thermostat bolts up to. Maybe they could each be ground down a little bit for clearance? I will have to take apart the distributor and see how much can be ground down.

The OBD0 Civic/Integra distributors I looked at in the junkyard all touched in the same location too.

newaccorddriver
12-31-2005, 06:29 PM
heres a question thats somewhat boggled my mind a bit, is there a certain direction the distributor much be pointing? what i meant is, how do i know its pointed in the right direction and everything positioned correctly so itll fire up as soon as i turn the ignition instead of just cranking with nothing else

Swap_File
12-31-2005, 09:45 PM
..is there a certain direction the distributor much be pointing?...

That is a very good point. I looked in the dealer manuals, and it looks like the f22 distributor mounts in a totally different way.

Here is the A20 hole pattern: (From A20A1, look at the bracket he is holding)
http://www.3geez.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3393
(Like a Y)

Here is the F22 pattern
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7056/wnjc2mtk0nnm0mtnkzmqzmxk1nde4v.jpg
(Upside down Y)

Now, in theory you could mount the distributor in a non-standard way, and compensate for it in an edited BIN for your ECU, but this would probably be a bad idea. The "limp mode" code on the ECU wouldn't work at all, and I do not know if an ECU could handle that much of an offset for all your timing values.

Looking at the first picture in this thread again:
http://openloopmotorsports.com/distributor.jpg

It looks like they mounted it in the standard position for an F22 engine. This means none of the brackets would line up, and one of them would be in the themostat housing.

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/3059/dis008large1rq.th.jpg (http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dis008large1rq.jpg)http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/9702/dis009large3nb.th.jpg (http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dis009large3nb.jpg)

The one leg in the thermostat could be cut off. It could even be ground down a bit into the case without hitting the sensors inside. Worst case a little JB weld would be needed to close it back up. Then there is just the mounting:
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/1268/dis010large9dk.th.jpg (http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dis010large9dk.jpg)

They may have done it this way with short pieces of steel:
(I used thin scraps I had sitting around as an example)
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/454/dis011large7ev.th.jpg (http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dis011large7ev.jpg)http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/5654/dis012large9vp.th.jpg (http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dis012large9vp.jpg)

I would really like to hear from Justanothermike (or someone who has done this before) before I start hacking up my distributor's case.

A20A1
12-31-2005, 09:57 PM
The second to the last pic, just use some washers or an aluminum spacer between the head and the flat bar of steel.

newaccorddriver
01-01-2006, 01:05 AM
The second to the last pic, just use some washers or an aluminum spacer between the head and the flat bar of steel.

kinda what i had in mind...(or something to that extent)

atleast swap file is making huge progress and taking his time to share his work. im planning on doing this project as well, but since i live in canada(it makes a HUGE difference cause i lack the resources here, atleast junkyard wise), im kinda rendered semi-helpless...

guaynabo89
01-01-2006, 09:14 AM
try looking in the other ecm options thread. theres alot of info over there.

I used the link that carot provided for the vss problem and figured out how to make it work on the accord. been like 2 months and no vss cel.

this is a post on I made with pictures fr the obd1 distributor http://3geez.com/showpost.php?p=493400&postcount=170

Swap_File
01-01-2006, 10:53 AM
The other thread has alot of useful information, I should have read through it earlier. They fixed the distributor position problem by just redrilling the key:

http://3geez.com/showpost.php?p=506657&postcount=213

I guess its time to get out the grinder and JB weld...

guaynabo89
01-02-2006, 08:12 AM
The other thread has alot of useful information, I should have read through it earlier. They fixed the distributor position problem by just redrilling the key:
http://3geez.com/showpost.php?p=506657&postcount=213
I guess its time to get out the grinder and JB weld...

Redrilling the key is just what I did to get the distributor facing the way it would be in an obd1 car.( with the square part facing up) If you choose to do that then you must first get the car running before you weld the legs on or it might not be in the correct position.

You dont have to do this. You can do it the way justanothermike did it and juust use brackets to attach it but then the square part of the distributor will have to face almost straight down slightly forward in order to get he car to run . In order to get it to face this way you must bend the coolant pipe comin out of the cylinder head just under the distributor down.

I didnt want to bend this pipe plus I wanted it to look as stock as possible. Thats why I decided to frdrill the key and cut and reweld the tabs on the distributor.

newaccorddriver
01-04-2006, 03:49 PM
i emailed the guy at boomslang and he told me that they have a OBD0->OBD1 harness for the 88-89 accords. i sent him the pin outs for the 86-87 accords, and he told me they were the same. im just curious, are they actually the same?


he also asked me what ecu i was going to run and what engine im going to be using. are these questions really rellevant? i thought all those OBD0->OBD1 harness' were the same, just plug and play into ANY ecu and it should work. atleast thats what justanothermike did. he tried out different ecu's and i doubt he had to change any of the pins on the OBD1 ecu's. can anybody comfirm that for me?

bobafett
01-04-2006, 04:05 PM
its possible that some of them have vtec for example, and some dont, which would mean possibly one less wire is needed, thats about the only thing i can think of, is the slight inconsistancies from one ecu to another. :)

guaynabo89
01-04-2006, 04:20 PM
i emailed the guy at boomslang and he told me that they have a OBD0->OBD1 harness for the 88-89 accords. i sent him the pin outs for the 86-87 accords, and he told me they were the same. im just curious, are they actually the same?
he also asked me what ecu i was going to run and what engine im going to be using. are these questions really rellevant? i thought all those OBD0->OBD1 harness' were the same, just plug and play into ANY ecu and it should work. atleast thats what justanothermike did. he tried out different ecu's and i doubt he had to change any of the pins on the OBD1 ecu's. can anybody comfirm that for me?

For the most part the pinouts are the same on obd1 ecu's. Only thing that change is small things like egr solenoid valves and such. One ecu might have it another wont. one engine might be vtec or not. Theres differences between auto and manual trannies too. solenoids for the vacuum lines or evap change from ecu to ecu also




boba beet me to it lol

newaccorddriver
01-04-2006, 07:27 PM
so what about the 86-87 and the 88-89 pinouts? are those the same?

Swap_File
01-04-2006, 09:19 PM
I started on getting my OBD-1 distributor to fit. I do not want to mess with grinding on my themostat, so I made a notch in the distributor.

Range of motion:
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8747/distrib1003large2hr.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=distrib1003large2hr.jpg)http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8296/distrib1004large4ym.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=distrib1004large4ym.jpg)

Space near thermostat Bolt:
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2951/distrib1007large2tl.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=distrib1007large2tl.jpg)

Pictures of what I removed:
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/1059/distrib1008large4hs.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=distrib1008large4hs.jpg)http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/1166/distrib1010large1lg.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=distrib1010large1lg.jpg)
The hole I made is under a sensor, nothing is normally there.

Now I just need to close up that hole with JB weld, and figure out the best angle to mount everything at so I can weld the mounts back on.

carotman
01-04-2006, 09:36 PM
Hmm that's nice work. You could even get it filled with aluminium if you have access to a welder.

Swap_File
01-04-2006, 10:05 PM
I have a welder, but nothing that can do thin aluminum.

All my friends have been telling me how great JB weld is, I am kinda using this project as a trial to see if its will hold up as well as they say.

newaccorddriver
01-04-2006, 11:52 PM
im just curious, can 2 of the legs hold the distributor on tight enough? im just curious cause im visualizing how i can do it, and i can get 2 of them on by mounting them onto a steel bar or something. im wondering if the third leg holds it on and makes the difference

Kabuki
01-05-2006, 12:11 PM
Well, the carbed 3Gs only HAD two mounting bolts, so I'd say yeah, no problem.

bobafett
01-05-2006, 12:35 PM
also if i remember right, the accord dizzy is heavier and bulkier than the 4g one, because ours have the vac advance bs on it. the 4g dizzy, while larger, is still lighter than the 3g one. at least in my experience

NXRacer
01-05-2006, 12:39 PM
has anybody tried taking the guts out of a OBD1 dizzy and swapping them to the accord dizzy?

newaccorddriver
02-23-2006, 07:12 PM
so... has anybody actually finished the OBD1 conversion as of now?(looks over at swap_file)

A20A1
02-23-2006, 07:23 PM
So you ground down the 4G distributor to get the camshaft notch to allign properly. Then you're going to add in the mounting legs?

What about the 4G distriutor with internal coil converted to external coil... that one has 3 legs on it.

Swap_File
02-23-2006, 10:15 PM
I have not made any big progess on this since I went back to college after winter break.

I did come up with a quick and dirty way of mounting the distributor for testing:
(I was worried about mounting the legs wrong, and having to re-weld it)

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/9949/dis016large7im.th.jpg (http://img66.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dis016large7im.jpg)http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/662/dis018large9pl.th.jpg (http://img66.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dis018large9pl.jpg)http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/1175/dis019large8so.th.jpg (http://img66.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dis019large8so.jpg)

I just need to find a few longer metric bolts, and some metric nuts so that I can lock the bolts in place (like I am showing in the last picture with the large standard bolt).

I would not trust this for extended use because the distributor could vibrate out, but it should work good for testing. It really holds the distributor in tight.

Swap_File
02-23-2006, 10:46 PM
So you ground down the 4G distributor to get the camshaft notch to allign properly. Then you're going to add in the mounting legs?

What about the 4G distriutor with internal coil converted to external coil... that one has 3 legs on it.

My basic plan is:

1. Remove the legs, and grind down that spot for the thermostat housing to fit in.

2. Re-drill the key to compensate for the new angle.

3. Temp mount it, and once its working, weld on the lugs.

I was thinking about getting another A20A3 distributor at the junkyard, and attempting to transplant the legs from that to the new distributor. I am not sure if it would be any less work or easier in the long run though.

The biggest problem I have run into is that no distributors seem to clear the thermostat. And even if they did, there is still the problem of mounting it. Most (all?) newer Honda distributors do not have their mounting holes in the same pattern as the A20 (Y versus upside down Y). The A20 also seems to have the bolt holes closer together than most other Hondas I have seen.

Both the internal and external coil F22 distributors mount the same:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8028710087
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8040532562
Check out the pictures
(I used distributor king auctions alot when looking at distributor mounting hole patterns)

I think that some welding or drilling or cutting will end up happening no matter what route is taken.

w00tw00t111
02-23-2006, 11:22 PM
Hey guys, just had a thought of a possible solution. What if you had a cnc machined "spacer" made that would wedge inbetween the dizzy and the engine. It would have the holes for the normal a20's dizzy mounting so that you could screw bolts into the block like normal. Then it could have three bolts welded into a recessed area of the "spacer" that the f22 dizzy would slide onto and then you would use 3 nuts to tighten it down. Just a thought. Here's a poorly rendered ascii pic.
I=nut O=dizzy |=spacer - = bolt
I--|--I
OO|
I--|--I
If it's needed I can draw one up in paint to get a better picture. Don't know if this helps at all but, I was just wondering if it would work.

88Accord-DX
02-25-2006, 11:06 AM
That sounds like a good plan, but you would also need to extend the camshaft snout out too, or some kind of cnc spacer to compensate for the space.

guaynabo89
03-03-2006, 07:11 PM
so... has anybody actually finished the OBD1 conversion as of now?(looks over at swap_file)


Ive been obd1 for a yaer now and I think justin86 is running obd1 as well , and of course justanothermikes brother, cousin etc from way back.

A20A1
03-03-2006, 08:14 PM
Hey guys, just had a thought of a possible solution. What if you had a cnc machined "spacer" made that would wedge inbetween the dizzy and the engine. It would have the holes for the normal a20's dizzy mounting so that you could screw bolts into the block like normal. Then it could have three bolts welded into a recessed area of the "spacer" that the f22 dizzy would slide onto and then you would use 3 nuts to tighten it down.

like this?

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/disspacer.gif

88Accord-DX
03-03-2006, 09:03 PM
Hope it gots a CNC spacer for the cam to distributor rotor.

newaccorddriver
03-04-2006, 09:56 AM
Ive been obd1 for a yaer now and I think justin86 is running obd1 as well , and of course justanothermikes brother, cousin etc from way back.

which distributor did you use and how extensive was the mod to make it fit?

bobafett
03-04-2006, 10:35 AM
i think they are all using 4g accord dizzys.... the external coil dizzy from 92-93 accord is going to be easier to wire in because our cars came with external coil. also these dizzys supposedly hold up better than the 90-91 dizzy which was prone to failure (spark scatter?)

Robs89LXi
03-04-2006, 11:28 AM
like this?
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/disspacer.gif

Actually, I was more thinking of placing the mounting bracket behind our cylinder head mounting holes. Since the bottom hole already lines up, just fashion an arch shaped piece that would bolt to the back of our top "ears". Then you could put long bolts through it to stick out in the spaces between our ears and line up with the other two ears of the dizzy. This would eliminate the need to lengthen the shaft of the dizzy.

A20A1
03-04-2006, 04:50 PM
i think they are all using 4g accord dizzys.... the external coil dizzy from 92-93 accord is going to be easier to wire in because our cars came with external coil. also these dizzys supposedly hold up better than the 90-91 dizzy which was prone to failure (spark scatter?)
MSD converts the internal coil to exteranl for the ones that need it. It's just a cap and rotor combo... thing is replacement parts could be a tad more pricey.


Actually, I was more thinking of placing the mounting bracket behind our cylinder head mounting holes. Since the bottom hole already lines up, just fashion an arch shaped piece that would bolt to the back of our top "ears". Then you could put long bolts through it to stick out in the spaces between our ears and line up with the other two ears of the dizzy. This would eliminate the need to lengthen the shaft of the dizzy.
K, I see 1/4 and 1/2 circle slotted metal bits from time to time on various machine parts and possibly in hardware stores near the track lighting sections where you have all those mounting dilly dallies. Anyways those would fit back there.

guaynabo89
03-04-2006, 05:53 PM
which distributor did you use and how extensive was the mod to make it fit?


Like bobafet said its a 92-93 accord external coil dis.

Had to modify the cam key, weld the legs where I needed them to be and adding three extra wires, the crank sensor wires (2) and the icm wire (1)

newaccorddriver
03-05-2006, 07:48 PM
Like bobafet said its a 92-93 accord external coil dis.
Had to modify the cam key, weld the legs where I needed them to be and adding three extra wires, the crank sensor wires (2) and the icm wire (1)

what do you mean by modify the cam key?

you can probably make alot of money here by premaking those disitributors for us here:) , just a thought

w00tw00t111
03-05-2006, 08:24 PM
like this?
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/disspacer.gif
Actually yes, that's exactly what I meant a20 thanks for the much prettier 3d model. I totally didn't even think about the cam key not fitting.*that's the part that the dizzy connects to inside the head correct? I'm trying to think of a way to get that "extended" w/o having to weld a rod inbetween the two pieces seeing as though I can just imagine if there were poor welds that it would just scatter into pieces. I can get the anything cnc'd no problem I just need to know what I should do about "extending" one of the two parts.

Edit:What could the max width of the spacer be w/o affecting the cam key?

P.S. Thanks so much a20 for the pic. I'm sure it helped alot more people to visualize what I was talking about then that ascii piece of crap I did :p

guaynabo89
03-06-2006, 05:36 PM
what do you mean by modify the cam key?
you can probably make alot of money here by premaking those disitributors for us here:) , just a thought


The cam key is the two pronged piece at the end of the distributor that fits into the end of the cam. This piece only fits on the distributor one way. ITs held on with small rod that goes through the middle of it with a snap ring on the outside to hold the small rod inside. You have to drill a new hole through the cam key to give this small rod a different position to through and reposition the key in a different angle to get the distributor to face in a more normal direction.


I know it sounds like blabber but pictures will explin better. You be drilling new holes where about the red lins are to be able to rotate the cam key in either direction to get the timing correct when you reweld the legs.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid202/peabbc33a68ec7c8043e60d5100700b13/efee7400.jpg

newaccorddriver
03-06-2006, 05:51 PM
The cam key is the two pronged piece at the end of the distributor that fits into the end of the cam. This piece only fits on the distributor one way. ITs held on with small rod that goes through the middle of it with a snap ring on the outside to hold the small rod inside. You have to drill a new hole through the cam key to give this small rod a different position to through and reposition the key in a different angle to get the distributor to face in a more normal direction.
I know it sounds like blabber but pictures will explin better. You be drilling new holes where about the red lins are to be able to rotate the cam key in either direction to get the timing correct when you reweld the legs.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid202/peabbc33a68ec7c8043e60d5100700b13/efee7400.jpg


suddenly megasquirt and fords EDIS seems alot easier then this... too bad i dont have welding skills and a spare head to try on...

newaccorddriver
03-06-2006, 08:38 PM
hahaha

but megasquirt won't be able to control your timing!

This is seriously easier then it sounds and looks if you break it down.

I aint scurrrrrred!


im pretty sure megasquirt n spark can control timing as well.

i sure its easier if i do break it down, the way guaynabo89 explained it made it sound somewhat easier. but the fact remains that hes got the welding skills that im currently lacking to do this sorta task. im not really scared to do the conversion, but its the fact that i might end up in a dead end with downtime that scares me. if i had an extra head id do it though(or atleast attempt it)

bobafett
03-06-2006, 10:36 PM
megasquirt II can use many different spark control systems, all of which are better than our lame setup. the easiest to work with is probably the GM DIS or the Ford EDIS systems. :)

http://www.megasquirt.info/
http://www.megasquirt.info/ms2/Ignition.htm

A20A1
03-06-2006, 11:53 PM
You have to drill a new hole through the cam key to give this small rod a different position to through and reposition the key in a different angle to get the distributor to face in a more normal direction.

But if we wanted we can install it in an abnormal facing postion without the need to mess with the key, right?




Was that TDC alligned... or is that just the best fit? why did you cut off all 3 legs if you only needed to remove one?


http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/dis009.gif

guaynabo89
03-15-2006, 06:34 PM
But if we wanted we can install it in an abnormal facing postion without the need to mess with the key, right?




Was that TDC alligned... or is that just the best fit? why did you cut off all 3 legs if you only needed to remove one?


http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Wendy_girl/dis009.gif

If you dont redrill the key You'll have to bend the water ppe coming out of the cylinder head out of the way.

I felt better doing it this way.


As for the legs I wanted it to be as reliable as stock without being jerryrigged. Plus look good :D

gfrg88
03-15-2006, 06:47 PM
man im so lost on this swap......

Swap_File
03-18-2006, 04:54 PM
I am not sure if the spacer idea would work. Unless the spacer is really really deep, you still end up with whatever part is facing the thermostat housing being in the way.

I think I found a simpler solution:
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/5248/31805011large1hb.th.jpg (http://img86.imageshack.us/my.php?image=31805011large1hb.jpg)http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/6325/31805013large4bf.th.jpg (http://img86.imageshack.us/my.php?image=31805013large4bf.jpg)http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/2760/31805015large8wp.th.jpg (http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=31805015large8wp.jpg)http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/8302/31805017large3ke.th.jpg (http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=31805017large3ke.jpg)http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/9091/31805019large1sk.th.jpg (http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=31805019large1sk.jpg)http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/7953/31805021large6sp.th.jpg (http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=31805021large6sp.jpg)http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/3003/31805022large4am.th.jpg (http://img86.imageshack.us/my.php?image=31805022large4am.jpg)http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/6548/31805024large9pe.th.jpg (http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=31805024large9pe.jpg)http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/4035/31805026large6cy.th.jpg (http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=31805026large6cy.jpg)

I ground down the angled support area around each leg, and once again made that hole in the side so the thermostat housing bolt doesn't hit. I then made slots on the top two legs, but there was no room for a slot on the lower leg so I just made a bolt hole. Eventually I need to JB weld or caulk the thermostat housing hole, but that can be done later.

If I just use the top two bolts I can rotate the distributor a few degrees, otherwise if I use all three bolts the distributor cannot be rotated. As long as I get the key drilled properly, it should be OK. Luckily I got a few keys at the junkyard, so I can try it a few times. If I can't get the key perfect, I can hopefully just compensate for it in the ECU's timing map.

Edit: The only tools I used to do this was a drill press, grinder, hack saw, and files.

Edit2: I checked, and it also all fits with the distributor cap on.

Swap_File
03-18-2006, 10:33 PM
But if we wanted we can install it in an abnormal facing postion without the need to mess with the key, right?

Was that TDC alligned... or is that just the best fit? why did you cut off all 3 legs if you only needed to remove one?

I took that picture just to show how far it stuck into the thermostat housing. I did not have it at TDC.

My first plan was to remove all the legs, shorten them up, and weld them back on. That way I could have all three legs holding the distributor on, and be able to fully adjust the mounting of it. As long as I got it mounted at the right angle, I would not have to mess with the key. Then I found out that I would have to grind down part of the thermostat housing, as shown here (http://3geez.com/forum/showpost.php?p=493400&postcount=170). I did not want to do that.

While working on that I noticed that there was space inside the distributor to make a hole for the thermostat housing. I made hole, and it just happened that when the hole was in place over the thermostat housing all the legs line up somewhat (but I had already cut them off at this point :uh: ). I got another distributor, and cut it up again, this time leaving the legs on, and I was able to mount it as shown above.

I still need to figure out where exactly TDC is, and drill the key (as shown here (http://3geez.com/forum/showpost.php?p=506657&postcount=213))

Edit: It looks like my distributor will end up being mounted at an angle very similar to guaynabo89 (http://3geez.com/forum/showpost.php?p=493400&postcount=170)'s.

Swap_File
03-25-2006, 06:29 PM
I filled up the notch I made with JB weld. It worked really good. I put down some duct tape, then screwed the sensor in. Then flipped it over and filled the hole with JB weld from the other side. It ran into the cracks, and smoothed out nicely.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/2919/32505013large6yq.th.jpg (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=32505013large6yq.jpg)http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3149/32505008large7tx.th.jpg (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=32505008large7tx.jpg)http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/6563/32505010large1lm.th.jpg (http://img104.imageshack.us/my.php?image=32505010large1lm.jpg)http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/5286/32505011large7ey.th.jpg (http://img104.imageshack.us/my.php?image=32505011large7ey.jpg)http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/766/32505012large8pq.th.jpg (http://img104.imageshack.us/my.php?image=32505012large8pq.jpg)http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/109/32505014large6we.th.jpg (http://img104.imageshack.us/my.php?image=32505014large6we.jpg)

SQ is the SQUAD
03-26-2006, 06:12 PM
damit, now i gotta go back and read 12 pages. this is my nest thing to do, glad you guys are takinbg the time and doing the research

Swap_File
03-26-2006, 08:23 PM
Here's a quick summary:

1. No OBD1 distributor fits nicely on the A20. Everyone so far has used F22 distributors, and cut them up to fit. There are several ways of doing it. Pictures of how I did it are directly above.

2. Because the distributor is not mounted at its normal angle, TDC (top dead center) is not correct. To fix this, the key will have to be drilled at another angle, like this (http://3geez.com/forum/showpost.php?p=506657&postcount=213).

3. A OBD0 -> OBD1 adapter is needed to plug the new ECU in. Some extra wires may need to be ran for the new distributor. EGR and probably some black box wires could possibly be used for this too, since they will not be used otherwise. I am building my own adapter from an old OBD0 ECU and part of an OBD1 harness.

4. A P75 fuel map is apparently a good starting point. So either get a P75 ECU, or chip your ECU and run a P75 map to start with. Any OBD1 Civic or Integra ECU should work fine, the fuel and timing maps can be transferred over.

5. Controlling the stock intake’s secondary butterflies and the EGR are extra work. Probably just cap the EGR, and hook the secondary butterflies up to an RPM window switch like shown here (http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46115). Or maybe look at a B18 or other alternative intake that has no EGR or secondary butterflies.

SQ is the SQUAD
03-27-2006, 03:42 AM
thanks, rthat simplified 12 pages. i rember seeing egr block off plates somewhere, how much do they usually go for?

gfrg88
03-27-2006, 12:39 PM
where can i get an egr block off plate, i need one quick???

Swap_File
03-27-2006, 01:02 PM
I would just trace the EGR and cut one out of some steel.

SQ is the SQUAD
03-27-2006, 05:28 PM
i decided to throw up my msd box today. i unhooked the black box. hopefully i wont need this anymore. i got a few more things i need to eliminate from the engine bay this week before i get my manifold welded and mounted

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2193/msd8ss.jpg

gfrg88
03-27-2006, 05:42 PM
so you removed all of the black box or what?? how?? isnt there a CEL coming on now??

SQ is the SQUAD
03-27-2006, 05:57 PM
the car is not currently in use. the black box is still hooked up the the vaccume lines just unplugged. i am trtying to figure out how i can get rid of it all together

SQ is the SQUAD
03-27-2006, 05:59 PM
hey swap file, how much will you chagre me to mod a distributor?

gfrg88
03-27-2006, 06:07 PM
justin was selling me a whole obd1 conversion kit, with everything needed to just bolt it all up for me a while ago, he said he was going to start making kits for everyone but dont know if hes still doing it....

newaccorddriver
03-27-2006, 06:39 PM
id pay for one if he was selling them:)

Legend_master
04-02-2006, 09:35 PM
I am not sure how close the OBD-0 G1 CRX's distributors are to ours (i know they are vacuum advanced like the 3g accord), but they make a plate to allow an OBD-1 distributor to bolt onto the stock location with no cutting.

Adapter plate (http://www.dilysimotorsports.com/Products.htm#Distributor%20Adapter)


I emailed them and I am waiting for a reply.

SQ is the SQUAD
04-03-2006, 05:22 AM
i found 2 distributors in my basement but i am not sure what they are from. they are either from a soch civic or gsr. one had the white plugs the other had grey plugs. the one with the white plugs looks like it might of been internal coil. i tihnk i rember taking a coil out of it. once imageshack finished there update, i can host the pics

SQ is the SQUAD
04-03-2006, 08:19 PM
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6286/dizzy36ny.jpg

Legend_master
04-03-2006, 08:21 PM
this is the reply I got from that company


I have a 1986 Honda Accord with the 2.0L PGMFI motor. I was wondering if this plate will work for that application. If not would you be willing to make one that does, I might be able to even get a group buy going for the right price over at www.3geez.com .

Thanks
Antares


Does the accord engine have anything in common with the 85-87 Civic Si engine? If they share a distributor, then in theory they will share the same adapter plate.

If it requires development, I will need a head, a current distributor, the desired distributor, and a commitment for 5 units @ $300 each.

Thanks,
Dave

SQ is the SQUAD
04-03-2006, 08:33 PM
they must be crazy. for $300 the better be making a wholenew distributor that will blow me

gfrg88
04-03-2006, 08:36 PM
so that would be just to bolt up the distributor right?? what about wiring??

Legend_master
04-03-2006, 08:39 PM
so that would be just to bolt up the distributor right?? what about wiring??

I am working with rywire to build a sub harness that allows for an OBD-1 ECU and has a piggy-back wire that runs into the engine-bay and plugs to an OBD-1 Dizzy. They will be about 110.00 to 150.00 a piece.

newaccorddriver
04-03-2006, 08:40 PM
so that would be just to bolt up the distributor right?? what about wiring??


does it matter? for $300 id rather try out megasquirt/EDIS and bug the hell out of elijah if it doesnt work like it should

newaccorddriver
04-03-2006, 08:42 PM
I am working with rywire to build a sub harness that allows for an OBD-1 ECU and has a piggy-back wire that runs into the engine-bay and plugs to an OBD-1 Dizzy. They will be about 110.00 to 150.00 a piece.


boomslang quoted me 150 for a custom harness for the accords, we can probably hard wire the distributors ourselves though

Legend_master
04-03-2006, 08:43 PM
does it matter? for $300 id rather try out megasquirt/EDIS and bug the hell out of elijah if it doesnt work like it should


There is always the Prelude dizzy. They just suck and don't sit the right angle on the head. I will be looking around for something similar to that adapter and I am going to check out and see if the G1 CRX distributor is the same as our cars then the price should be cheaper.

SQ is the SQUAD
04-03-2006, 08:45 PM
how much are they selling there 1g crx dizzy adapter for

Legend_master
04-03-2006, 08:52 PM
how much are they selling there 1g crx dizzy adapter for

I am not sure, but I need to check on the similarities of the CRX and the Accord before I even try that rout.

gfrg88
04-03-2006, 09:10 PM
thats one of the problems with our cars, a lot of the guys want things to be cheap, and im not saying thats cheap cause that is a lot but we have to deal with what we can get, but then again thats just what i think :)

Legend_master
04-03-2006, 10:00 PM
thats one of the problems with our cars, a lot of the guys want things to be cheap, and im not saying thats cheap cause that is a lot but we have to deal with what we can get, but then again thats just what i think :)


3 bills is kinda expensive, but maybe we can find something else that will work. It's just going to take time

carotman
04-03-2006, 10:15 PM
Well they sell a "Drive Key Adapter". Anyone could make their own plate and just use this drive key adapter so the dizzy stays in place.

guaynabo89
04-04-2006, 03:19 PM
300 is way to steep for a piece of machined aluminum. Id say maybe about 150 or so for a piece like that but 300 is way to much.

Plus youd still need an adapter to lengthen the dis key to meet the camshaft.

Legend_master
04-04-2006, 05:13 PM
300 is way to steep for a piece of machined aluminum. Id say maybe about 150 or so for a piece like that but 300 is way to much.
Plus youd still need an adapter to lengthen the dis key to meet the camshaft.


As carotman explained, maybe we can get just the key and make our own plate :dunno: .

Kabuki
04-06-2006, 02:24 PM
Or put a longer shaft in the distrubutor. It's possible that we could mod a shaft from one of the LXi dizzies and install it in a 4G housing.

bobafett
04-06-2006, 02:35 PM
for that matter it might not be too bad to have someone CNC a dizzy key spacer out of 1"-1.25" aluminum rod. one could have the added bonus of rekeying it to any new orientation, so you could mount the distributor any way it fits best.

but this means you have the dizzy mounting plate adapter which costs a good chunk of change, and also that you have the little extender peice. maybe I will reconsider a tunable odb1 setup afterall...