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View Full Version : Redline b20 vs a20a



NXRacer
06-11-2003, 07:42 AM
Correct me if i'm wrong, but i spent about 8 hours yesterday reading all i could on here about b20 swap and i havent read anything about a subject i consider pretty important.

When converting to a b20, the best way is to use the stock a20 ECU. I imagine that the B20 has a higher redline than the A20. The ECU controls how far the motor is able to rev by cutting off the fuel at a designated 'redline'. I'd sure hate to have a high revving motor in my car and only be able to rev it to 6200 RPM because the stock ecu wont let it go any further. anybody know about this???

A20A1
06-11-2003, 09:12 AM
Why would you use the A20 ECU?
I Would hope you get the B20 ECU when you buy the engine.
A half-ass job on any swap will give you poor results.

And if you're so worried about redline convert it to dual carbs and ditch the ECU... though I'm not sure how that would affect the ignition system... thats my only concern.

88LXi68
06-11-2003, 09:19 AM
The b20a is not a hi-revving engine. It has the same redline as the A20A3. I am getting this info from pics of the B20A gauge cluster that AerodeckUK posted a while back.

NXRacer
06-11-2003, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by 88LXi68
The b20a is not a hi-revving engine. It has the same redline as the A20A3. I am getting this info from pics of the B20A gauge cluster that AerodeckUK posted a while back.

If this is true, then that sucks. I was hoping that since it was DOHC it would have a higher redline then the A20A3. Oh well....

Theres no way i would convert to carb. I already have EFI in my car and i plan on keeping it that way. IMO FI give better power and better fuel economy which is something i still consider at the moment.

pric
06-11-2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by 88LXi68
The b20a is not a hi-revving engine. It has the same redline as the A20A3. I am getting this info from pics of the B20A gauge cluster that AerodeckUK posted a while back.

The B20A redlines at 6500 and has a max hp @ 6300 compared to the A20A3 that has a redline of 6200 and max hp @ 5800.

88LXi68
06-11-2003, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by pric
The B20A redlines at 6500 and has a max hp @ 6300 compared to the A20A3 that has a redline of 6200 and max hp @ 5800.

Thanks PRIC. I wasnt sure the exact numbers but I knew it wasnt in the 7k range because of the tach.

toastyghost
06-12-2003, 12:32 AM
god damn it people stop saying "b20" because this is very confusing for anyone that knows that there are MANY FUCKING B20's!!! is it a b20a, b20a1, b20a3, b20a5, b20b, b20z?!?!?!?!?! what the fucking bloody hell are you talking about

edit: no i'm not on crack.. those are all fucking "b20" engines and they're all very different. in the honda engine code scheme, "b20" means it has two cams (B-series = DOHC) and it displaces 2 liters (## = #.#L). that tells me virtually nothing about which specific engine you're referring to

RCracer
06-12-2003, 12:01 PM
Here is the photo of the B20a speedo/rev counter (the one mentioned above) before I took it from my B20a parts car.

(aerodeckuk)

goldyaccord
06-12-2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by RCracer
Here is the photo of the B20a speedo/rev counter (the one mentioned above) before I took it from my B20a parts car.

(aerodeckuk)

:eek: a 140 mph Guage! :D

Versanick
06-12-2003, 10:17 PM
You guys are very confusing. When I order my b20a, I'm going to use an aftermarket ECU or upgrade anyway... I refuse to swap in an engine with such a small gain in power. The local machine shop guy says that with a handful of cash, he can help me machine it and get better internals etc, and run at least 250hp to the wheels NA. I'm still working on my loan, but I'll let you guys know. After a 50 shot of nitrous on top of that, I will have an Accord running 11's...

Why would you guys not get all the engines bored and stroked and valve ported, and get forged internals... or at least get a valve and head job. Hell, it's a b-series. You can use a GSR head on many of them, and many other GSR parts you can find anywhere. Any b20s are worthy of over 180+torque (N/A), because of their differences with the smaller-displaced 16's and 18's.

So I guess my question is... when you guys are ordering your b20's... and you get them in the crate... why aren't you taking them to your local machine shops after saving some money, and at least getting something reworked... or an upgraded ECU... my b20 will probably "redline" about 9000.... or whereabouts. And the redline is different from the governor. A governor cuts the fuel at a designated RPM, not necessarily having anything to do with the redline.

My old carb'd 86 could rev to 9k, but it wouldn't produce any power up there without some nitrous... I would certainly not use the a20 ecu... definetely either start with a b20 ecu or go straight aftermarket. Some people say that if you're upgrading from carb'd a20 to fi b20 to just stick with carb, because it doesn't really produce (much?) more power (though a good carb system might be cheaper than a good efi system)... but if you get the whole ecu, motor, and everything you need anyway, just convert. When replacing the entire motor, there isn't really much "sticking with" happening... I still don't understand why people say "stick with" this or that.

Regardless... the redline can be whatever you want it to be. You can have a different cam or different timing or different compression, or a million different things factoring into a redline (besides the governor).... A real redline should be an RPM that is unsafe for the car to rev, not just the highest optimal RPM for power. If my redline is 9k, and I run way faster shifting at 7.5, I'm damn well going to do it... but I don't necessarily need an RPM governor telling me when I HAVE to shift.

blah

I love accords.

‹^› ‹(•¿•)› ‹^›
06-12-2003, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by Versanick
You guys are very confusing. When I order my b20a, I'm going to use an aftermarket ECU or upgrade anyway... I refuse to swap in an engine with such a small gain in power. The local machine shop guy says that with a handful of cash, he can help me machine it and get better internals etc, and run at least 250hp to the wheels NA. I'm still working on my loan, but I'll let you guys know. After a 50 shot of nitrous on top of that, I will have an Accord running 11's...

Why would you guys not get all the engines bored and stroked and valve ported, and get forged internals... or at least get a valve and head job. Hell, it's a b-series. You can use a GSR head on many of them, and many other GSR parts you can find anywhere. Any b20s are worthy of over 180+torque (N/A), because of their differences with the smaller-displaced 16's and 18's.

So I guess my question is... when you guys are ordering your b20's... and you get them in the crate... why aren't you taking them to your local machine shops after saving some money, and at least getting something reworked... or an upgraded ECU... my b20 will probably "redline" about 9000.... or whereabouts. And the redline is different from the governor. A governor cuts the fuel at a designated RPM, not necessarily having anything to do with the redline.

My old carb'd 86 could rev to 9k, but it wouldn't produce any power up there without some nitrous... I would certainly not use the a20 ecu... definetely either start with a b20 ecu or go straight aftermarket. Some people say that if you're upgrading from carb'd a20 to fi b20 to just stick with carb, because it doesn't really produce (much?) more power (though a good carb system might be cheaper than a good efi system)... but if you get the whole ecu, motor, and everything you need anyway, just convert. When replacing the entire motor, there isn't really much "sticking with" happening... I still don't understand why people say "stick with" this or that.

Regardless... the redline can be whatever you want it to be. You can have a different cam or different timing or different compression, or a million different things factoring into a redline (besides the governor).... A real redline should be an RPM that is unsafe for the car to rev, not just the highest optimal RPM for power. If my redline is 9k, and I run way faster shifting at 7.5, I'm damn well going to do it... but I don't necessarily need an RPM governor telling me when I HAVE to shift.

blah

I love accords.

Are you on Drugs?

A20A1
06-13-2003, 12:22 AM
hmm... if you manage to bypass/pass the fuel cut-off point safely the BS/A20A1 chokes @ 6,800 rpm like a cat with a hair ball if you're running stock :lol

I think the stock ignition folds at around 7k and you start blowing black smoke from lack of air or bad combustion.

Then if things hold together on the stock bottom end, the valve train takes a dump from 8,200 - 9,000 rpm

Not to mention the water pump is spinning too fast and the plugs can't dissapate the heat quick enough so you'd either get some serious detonation... or you'd just redecorate the surface of the pistons.

DarknessRS
06-13-2003, 01:01 AM
Good luck with...

...tuning the car using an aftermarket ECU
...making a B20A Accord run 11s with only 250hp and a 50shot of Nitrous
...getting any B18 head to work on the B20A block
...finding a pre-programmed ECU upgrade for the B20A

I'm curious about...

...a carbed A20 revving to 9k (nitrous when you are way out of your powerband???)
...again about the revving to 9000 rpms

I'm pretty sure that it would require extensive engine work to make a B20 rev up to 9000 rpms since you'd have to not only get forged internals, but you'd probably have to redesign things like the crankshaft (less rotational mass means you can make the engine rev higher). Even then, I doubt that it would make a great deal more power.

carotman
06-13-2003, 01:24 AM
OK Versanick, I usually don't reply to this kind of posts but I'll do an exception


I refuse to swap in an engine with such a small gain in power. 60 HP for the carbed guys, 40 for EFI... in STOCK form.....


Why would you guys not get all the engines bored and stroked and valve ported, and get forged internals... or at least get a valve and head job.

Yeah, I'll love to see a STROKED B20A.... riiiiight. The rod length ratio is already really bad.... Increasing the bore size would be fun tough... but it's expensive.


), because of their differences with the smaller-displaced 16's and 18's.

You're missing the whole point here... it's NOT a B20b... it's a B20A.......


my b20 will probably "redline" about 9000
I'd love to see that... I'll bet you my left nut that one of the connecting rods will punch through the block in the first 10 000 miles... See, it's not a B20b here we're talking about, it's a B20A. It's basicaly a stroked B18.... and even the B18 can't rev to 9k without heavy mods..... imagine a B20A....



My old carb'd 86 could rev to 9k but it wouldn't produce any power up there without some nitrous
I'll raise the bullshit flag here. You'll get valve float far before 8k... And the carb cannot even supply enough fuel for the NOS system to work safely



but if you get the whole ecu, motor, and everything you need anyway, just convert. When replacing the entire motor, there isn't really much "sticking with" happening... I still don't understand why people say "stick with" this or that.


Running wires, upgrading the fuel system and ripping the whole interior to install the EFI system in a car is a pain in the butt... been there, done that. You can get a rebate if you don't buy the ECU and all the wires.. this saved money can be used with a good clean carb system... you even said it would perform the same as EFI without the heavy cost. It's just less pain to "stick" with the fuel system you have. A car fuel system is far more than just the wires and ECU...


Regardless... the redline can be whatever you want it to be. You can have a different cam or different timing or different compression

Cams and compression have nothing to do with the max RPM an engine can acheive. It's all about valvetrain, rod ratio and balancing the bottom end. The rev limiter is only there to prevent you from going in the dangerous zone... it's not there to tell you when to shift!!!! If you hit the rev limiter, you're already out of your powerband.



If my redline is 9k, and I run way faster shifting at 7.5

It depends where your max Power is , the power curve and the transmission gear ratio you're running.



You obviously need to do some reading on this board. Don'T be affraid to ask questions, this is what it's made for. Just don't state unaccurate facts...

Mes 2 cents.

NXRacer
06-13-2003, 07:28 AM
Yesterday after i found out i could get a B20A motor for so cheap, i went to one of the local import speed shops (Pac West) to talk about what i should do. I was talking to the owner and he gave me some very useful information. He said on his drag car, he's running a basically stock GSR motor with the only thing really custom is the pistons. (of course he's running a hellasious turbo on it) He's running forged pistions with stock head AND bottom end. He runs tens ALL DAY LONG with that setup. He said he tested his car using a fully port and polished head and still ran the same times. Honda makes their heads to run really good and if you polish the ports, it ends up not mixing the air/fuel as well so you dont get a good mix into the cylinders. He's tried all the things people talk about doing to motors (port and polished head, balanced and blueprinted, lightened crank, knife edge crank) and everything didnt get him any faster times. He says a lightened flywheel will give you the same result and lightening your crank and its a hell of a lot cheaper. I asked him what i should do to the B20A motor and he said if i was just going to run it stock, he'd do nothing, but i was going to put N2O on it or turbo it i'd want to put forged pistons in it (which i was going to do anyway).

He basically said that Honda motors are "near perfect" when they come from the factory and dont need all that fancy stuff done to them. He said spend your money on good pistons, ignition system and fuel system.

toastyghost
06-13-2003, 09:43 AM
goldy: actually it's 145 if you count that extra non-numerated notch which i assume is where the limiter is

Versanick
06-13-2003, 11:46 PM
I'm planning to belt out about $5000 for all the work to go into the b20a. The b20a's are what you want to drop into an 86-89 accord because the motor mounts match up exactly, you don't need a place racing kit (according to my local machine shop guy AND the japanese guy from the engine importer place up my road)... any other b20 you'd have to get a kit for (including the 160hp version of the b20)...

Next, my 86 accord produced virtually NO power past 7500 rpm, but DID rev past the 8 if it was warm and if I whacked it down in neutral. I know all of those things you told me, and I really don't think it produced any kind of reliable spark past 7... but the car definetely didn't blow up, and definetely didn't catch on fire any of the probable 100 times I'd revved it 8k+ (just to rev it higher than the other kid in my high school parking lot back when I was 16, whose dad owns a Honda shop so he always get cheap parts and he's loaded... plus he sells acid... so ... anyway)

And no, I've never used nitrous past 6k (my friend told me you shouldn't let it lean out while boosting, I have no idea if he knew what he was talking about or not, I just didn't really want to blow up a 200k motor)...

And the machine shop guy told me a GSR head would fit on most b-series engines, particularly the later models of them, and I'd imagine if you were using a b20b (if that's what you guys are doing?) that you'd be a bit closer...

There's a lot of argument about it both ways, but newer honda rods are very well-built, but different estimates of when you need better rods range from 300whp to 500hp... some people say that if they're in-tact and reworked, they'll never go. Others say that they go after 275hp. I'm going to be looking at forged rods and pistons anyway. The guy at theoldone.com built the two b20's he had to run past 9500rpm, and peak the horsepower there. They use big (boosted-application) injectors, and shave EVERYTHING (even smooth the edges of the crank to cut through the oil better)...

Different compression will find you different torque at different RPM's, and shift where most people "want" their redlines, or where it is practical to estimate what a redline is, same with a cam, same with the timing. The bottom end won't be an issue after the entire engine is basically re-built with Eagle rods and crank and forged pistons, everything shaved and balanced...

dude I read all the time on this board, and I read books (right now, Honda Builder's Handbook Part I - really good stuff), and they all have different thinks they say work, and what works for them...

things like piston-to-wall clearance seem to have 4 or 5 different strong opinions about what they should be...

I think you do what works for you. And I used to not have any money to spend on a honda, but my dream is to have kids watch my honda race some other kid, and go "damn... I love watching hondas go WAY faster than I think hondas are supposed to go"... and that's what's cool.

I was always confused about what kinds of b20's you guys were using because every engine importer I talk to reccomends me a b20a because of how much cheaper it is (which has 130hp I believe), since I'm planning on getting it machined, and most of the parts replaced anyway. Only since I'm told that those sit right in our engine bays without custom mounting kits or anything, I finally attempted to presume that you guys maybe found some better version of the b20a that I couldn't find, or you are all using b20b's, and getting the (expensive from what I've seen) mounting kits.

I'm confused about all that... I want to do what I'm gonna do, but I like it when people reply... and I like it when people call bullshit... and I agree. Maybe the tach's way off... I've heard of tachs not being real accurate (I think? I don't know much how a tach works other than measuring a frequency of revolution)



I just want to pop my hood and have kids go 'woh, what kind of engine is that?' and I just go aah it's just a b20... and then I want to race that kid down the street with the turbo b18c5 del sol, and beat him. That's all I want.

And the machine shop guy also said that they just built a 300hp turbo b-series for some civic in canada, and it runs 9's (I assumed the suspension was redone, body was gutted, driver's seat only, 1500lbs? didn't ask him specifics)... The guy's built most of the faster hondas in town, and many of the guys with crazy imports around...

He told me I'd max around 9k if I wanted the engine to last any good amount of time, and that's how he planned to put 250 down with 180tq... I still read and listen to what you guys say, but I'd say go to your local machine shop and say okay I want this engine to be as fast as I can and I have X amount of money. what can you make it do?

I do think it's way cooler to do stuff yourself... but I did that for about a year with my a20 (it was fun... learning how a car works a little bit)...

all you guys are crazy and I like reading your stuff

so keep writing haha

carotman
06-14-2003, 12:20 AM
Sure the B20b can run to 9k. All the "normal" B series can acheive that with internal engine work. However. The B20A is the older version of the B series. It's almost identican internaly to the B20A5 found in the 88-91 Preludes. You can't fit a VTEC head on those without some mods to the head and getting a custom gasket. it CAN be done however (Tom at www.ludespeed.com did it) However, the Vtec camshaft are designed to push power in the high revs, which the B20A has alot of trouble to acheive due to it's higher stroke (the B20B doesn't have this problem)

The JDM B20A produces 160 HP in stock form. Some European versions has 135 hp but can easily be modded to acheive the 160 hp that the JDM version has.

Don't listen to those engine importers, just show them what you want and get it. Then you can do the mods yourself or bring the parts you need to be modified in a machine shop. Most people are familiar with the newer B series and will just tell you innacurate things about the B20A....

Osiris
06-14-2003, 02:07 AM
carotman ~ 60 HP for the carbed guys, 40 for EFI... in STOCK form.....

A little off topic but i was thinkin of converting from carb to EFI. Am i to understand that the carbed accords put out more power and to just stay with that?:confused:

carotman
06-14-2003, 02:17 AM
The EFI produces more HP from the factory. That's why the increase in power is greater for the carb (60 hp)

Trowa
06-14-2003, 08:52 AM
http://www.theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/
that's the engine that Versanick was talking about, and that is a sweet engine but i would prbly cost A LOT to make.....

Versanick
06-15-2003, 08:33 AM
LoL I'd love a d20d or any of those (presumbably the one in theoldone's article, depending which year CRV it's from)... I'd wonder what kind of tranny I could find to make a CRV engine sit in an 86-89 Accord though... maybe LSD makes something?

88LXiHatchMOdifier
06-26-2003, 10:27 PM
Quote:" The b20a's are what you want to drop into an 86-89 accord because the motor mounts match up exactly, you don't need a place racing kit"

What?, why do that ?.

1st Idea:

Get a weber carb kit(or install some custom dual carbs), headers, dual exhaust, a port an polished head, butterflied manifold, a turbo, or supercharger with nitrous on a A20,bigger spacers,high flow cat, 3-6 in downpipe,an a few more things, and it'll make a B20a look stupid.

2nd Idea:

Why bother screwing around with a B20a?, why not put out a lil more dough, and get something with more power stock. Any B Series motor will fit with a kit, so..what does that tell you?. Personally speaking, I'm getting something crazy for my ride. I'll let yall know what I do, when I do it. Check ya later.., peace!

Steve

RobT5580
06-27-2003, 01:30 PM
Well the B20A is cheaper than most if not all JDM B-series swaps and you dont have to spend the money for all the Place Racing stuff. The JDM B20A is a good base and has decent torque which honda lags in. I have tossed up what swap to do for some time until i decided B20A Turbo would be plenty for me. And what are you talking about 3-6 inch downpipe. Maybe 3 with a turbo but their is no way your gonna do anything with a 6 inch downpipe.

NXRacer
06-27-2003, 02:08 PM
I have a friend who has the original CR-V motor in his civic Si. Its the B20b (right?) with a B16a head on it. I believe he used the original B16 tranny with it. Get the mounts/axles from PlaceRacing and you can do the exact same thing in a 3G (for about $1100 not incl. the motor).

I decided to go with the B20a because i can have it shipped to my door for 1100 and it'll drop right in if i so please. That way i wont have spend tons of dough on mounts and axles and i'll have a motor thats got more stock HP then the puny A20a and NOBODY will know what it is....and thats what i like the most.

HostileJava
07-05-2003, 08:31 AM
NXRACER, where are you getting the motor for $1100 from?

Carotman, I see listed here that the motor puts out 160hp and I thought that my stock LX-i put out 98hp so wouldn't I see a 62hp difference not a 40hp difference?

carotman
07-05-2003, 08:59 AM
the lx-i has 110 hp for 86-87 and 122 hp for 88-89

NXRacer
07-07-2003, 07:45 AM
Openloop motorsports had one for 1100