Ac recharge and conversion

[smufguy]

I am putting my car together and my whole AC is discharged and all the hoses removed. My question is I dont wanna recharge it to the factory refrigerent but convert it to R134a which seems to be common and easily available and cheap. How do i convert it and how easy it the conversion? How easy is it to recharge the whole system and i guess it takes up atleast 4 regular cans for the conversion/recharging. thanks guys, as much help is appreciated.

[shepherd79]

this is agood question i am about to do the same thing. i want to know if the old setup would hold the R-134 refrigerent.
i heard i would have to change some o-rings or something.
so how hard is it?
thanks.

[culetto]

i could use that info too, living in vegas without air is like living in a hair dryer

thanks

[accordlx]

I bought the kit, followed the instructions that were included and my air works fine. The only thing I did not on the box was drained the remaining R-12 that was in the system. I took a tire valve stem remover and removed the little pressure release thing that was on the high pressure side and drove the car for a couple of miles and made sure that there was nothing left in the system of the old refrigerant and oil.

Make sure that you use all of the oil that came with the kit. It is like 8 oz of lubricant/oil.

I didn't even vaccuum pump my system down and it still works very well. Be foreward that Honda does not recommend doing this with conversion with one of the compressor models that were originally installed on our cars. (I think there are 2 different ones.) I will check to see which one I have and tell you which one is the correct one to use with the conversion.

The incorrect compressor will not hold up very well under the extra load of trying to cool your car since it takes more effort to cool the car with the 134a.

[vtec11]

hahaha, u released the remaining R12 into the air?

i had my AC converted to R134a about 3 years ago by my uncle's mechanic. he was doin alot of em at the time. Only charged me $60. It still blows cold. But the compressor is louder now. it makes like crackeling noises when running. can't tell unless u open the hood to listen for it.

Does this mean its low on oil or something ? I know there are different oils for R134 and R12 . R134 reqiures ester oil ?

Not sure if he pumped out the old one, and put in the newer oil when it was done. Can u even pump out the oil with evacuation machine ??

[dj99]

I looked into this recently (mostly on the net), and I found this: Honda put a few compressors into the 86-89 models, one of which isn't suitable for R134a, the Keihin. If you have one of these, you have to switch to a Nippondenso, or a Sanden. I think I have an ND, because of the pics at www.hondaautomotiveparts.com, not because I got in there and looked at the label.

If you have an ND or a Sanden, Honda sells a retrofit kit, P/N 38020-SM4-A1AH, which is like $50 at www.hparts.com. This may be preferable to buying the bottle of oil and o-rings in your local parts store. Sometimes the receiver/drier has to be changed as wells.

I am under the impression that you should have your R12 professionally vacuumed out of your system to remove all traces of R12 and oil. Then you can go about the retrofit and recharge.

Our R12 capacities are:
1986: 23 Oz (1.43 Lb)
1987: 23-26 Ozs (1.43-1.62 Lbs)
1988-1989: 28-32 Ozs (1.75-2.0 Lbs)
(which may explain why my 88 still works pretty good! :)

I also heard somewhere along the line that you should only fill a retrofit system with like 80-85% of a full charge.

If your air works well or is just OK, you really don't have to do anything. If you have some bubbles in your sight glass, but your air works, do nothing. It is still best to recharge a working R12 system with R12, rather than a retrofit.

I was told it would cost me at least $70 plus R12 at $50 a Lb just to check the level. Nah, It works OK! :cool:

[smufguy]

sweet guys, thanks a lot. Well i am glad cause i took out everything, cleaned everything out. all the AC lines and the AC unit under the dash and the condensor in the front is all cleaned and i rust protected. question is. Do i need new O rings for my AC line connections or the Sealent in the R134a would fix any leaks? Second of all, how to say a compressor works fine? It should spin, just spin? I am gonna take it from a junkyard and its just 25 bucks. The new one is around 300 bucks right?


I got one more question. My sister's 4g is low on AC. It blows, but not that much. So i can just discharge the AC and fill it in with the R134a?

the funny side, the last time i was in the junk yard with my friend, i saw these two hispanic dude's fiddling on a car (a beat up 90 camry) and all of a sudden u see this hizzing sound and we looked around. and there it was. those dudes unbolted the ac line on the car and it was shooting this withe smoky shit like a blowoff valve. :lol . It was hilarious.

[Afrosheen]

Wacky, most junkyards discharge the R12 into a can and turn a nice profit off that. R12 is crazy expensive and hard to find.

I recently had my AC charged, one can of R12-system-friendly-yet-environment-friendly replacement gas instead of the whole pain in the ass R134 conversion. $25 and I was on my way.

By the way, our AC systems are weak enough with the R12. If you convert to R134 it'll be even weaker. Here in Texas you need the AC to give you about 40 degrees output or lower (if you're really lucky). The R134 won't get this cold, it's not as efficient a cooler as R12 and it's friends are.

[DBMaster]

I agree with Afrosheen. I spent $1,000 three years ago putting in the retrofit kit from Honda. I am not talking about switching to 134a. The kit replaced the old Keihin compressor with a Sanden and it came with brackets, hoses, and drier. I am sticking with R12, frankly, because these systems will not last using 134a. We do not have the right kind of condenser or hoses (needs to be barrier hoses) either.

My outlook is a little different. With a new system I only have to add a little R12 every couple of years (about a half can). I can still buy it by the can ($30 per can, though) with my license, and a friend of mine gave me four cans he had out in his garage for free.

Damn, when I first got my license R12 was still selling for $7 a can. I should have stocked up big time! If you do a search on some auto A/C sites you can find out the drawbacks of switching to 134a and also learn about the pros and cons of various "drop-in" replacements for R12. There are about eight of them and they are all pretty much blends of various refrigerants. Some claim to run lower pressures and give you colder air than R12. R12 has been very hard to replace because it is so stable, non-corrosive, and performs so well. To get similar cooling from 134a systems has taken a lot of redesign fo A/C systems.

[smufguy]

hmmm thats an interesting point to be noted about R12s. But the problem with me is that, I NEED AC working agian. i am not in texas or Nevada. I am in NJ and our summer is like 3 months and in that 3 months, i dont wanna be frying or have my gf complaing that its freaking hot in my car. I know a lot of ppl have converted their System to R134. most of them did not bother and took their ac out. Few ppl like you, spend money into it and have it R12. My question is, I need more ppl to back it up. As of right now, R134 guys are stronger and i need ppl to beat me up and say that i cannot convert to R134. if not, fuck this i am changing to R134. The reason is, i dont care about my system much. i just want some cold air blowing in my face. AC is not gonna screw up my car, if the compressor freezes well the belt snaps like mine did. my other main question is about the compressor. HOW DO U KNOW A COMPRESSOR IS GOOD? DOES IS JUST HAVE TO SPIN??? I NEED SOMEONE WITH GOOD KNOWLEDGE ABOUT COMPRESSORS TO JUMP IN.

[accordlx]

The only way you are going to know if the compressor is any good is to charge the system. A/C compressors have a clutch on them that kick in when the a/c is turned on and it has a proper charge. It will not turn on unless there is some sort of refrigerant in the system.

I understand what the other guys are saying about R12 and living in Texas but I also live in a state where it is cold more than it is hot.

I changed over to R134a because it was a cheap alternative to spending $200 to get a R12 recharge or spending a couple of grand to do it "right."

It's true that I cannot store milk and vegetables in my car on a 95 degree day but we only have a few of those around here anyways. I turn on the a/c when it gets above about 80 outside and that's less than 90 days a year around here. I did the conversion, it works well for what I need it to do which is make it comfortable inside my car. (Not freeze me out) and I still get a vent outlet temperature of around 65 degrees on a 90 degree day as long as I drive the car around and not let it sit idling for more than like 10 minutes. My allergies can't take it any colder than that in my car anyways.

I did the conversion. I am happy with the results and I would do it again. It was less than $30 and it was a good investment for what I want it to do. That is not sweat like a steel worker when I go from point A to point B. I have the Nippondenso compressor and it doesnt make any funny noises when I drive it and I think that it works quite well considering that R134a doesnt have nearly the cooling power of the good stuff. I don't have a license to buy R12 either so that is out for me.

BTW I remember when you could go into any auto parts store in the US and buy a can of R12 for $1.75. Those were the days....

[vtec11]

AccordLX,

i remember the days when the R12 cans used to me .99 cents at kmart. and i'm only 24.

Anyways, how long has it been since u've converted to 134a. Mines has been 3 years, and the compressor is starting to get noisy. Does that mean its low on oil and/or referigant ??

[accordlx]

I converted mine last year. I used 8 oz of lubricant when I redid mine and useed 2lbs of refrigerant.

[dj99]

accordlx -

What exactly did you get for $30? Did that include the refrigerant? Can you tell us what you had to do to convert? :confused:

[dj99]

Oh, and here is a good read -

http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/609/technicians/retrguid.html

Government publication no less! :)

[DBMaster]

This article was similar to others I have read. What it says to me is to do what I already did. If you have the money and plan to keep the car for several more years stick with the refrigerant it came with, period. Vent output temperature is just barely cold enough on this car as it is and I would not have been happy with 134a performance. There are several weak spots in the system that allow slight leaks, also, that would also be worsened with the higher system pressures created by using 134a.

When you are talking about a system that should last at least ten years saying that you did thre retrofit one, two, or three years ago is meaningless when discussing durability.

When you have had 134a in there five years or more let me know if everything is still working fine.

Later!

[smufguy]

So you are saying that if the compressor spins freely, then its no good? i still dont understand how to tell a compressor is fine. I need a compressor from the junk and is it possible to repair a ceized compressor? and one more thing, the compressor from the junk (off a 89 lxi coupe) says just DENSO.

So seems like u guys says its better to recharge with the R12. HOw much would it be for a total recharge of R12 saying that your system is completely and spotlessly discharged.

[dj99]

Denso is Nippon Denso. It would potentially be a good grab from the junkyard. I keep reading that you should plug off your hoses immediately if you remove the old compressor to prevent corrosion, etc. I saw one last week on ebay.

Your '89 would take 1.75-2.0 Lbs of R12 for a "full" recharge, at about $50 a Lb, that would be $87.50-$100. A big part of that is getting a shop to put it in, since you can't buy it yourself. My Honda dealer told me it would cost at least $70 for the labor. Maybe an air shop would do it for less. So maybe a total of $160-$200 would be reasonable for this? So you can see why some would rather chance it and do a retrofit for cheap. :smokin:

[Afrosheen]

True R12 is hella expensive but the R12 replacement is fairly cheap. I had some Mexican shop here in Dallas charge the system with one can of the replacement and it was $25 for labor and the recharge.

[accordlx]

Too bad for me that Mexico is like 2000 miles away. I got quoted $200 for a r12 recharge here in Ohio.

BTW. I got everything I needed to recharge with R134a for $30. A can of R134a is only like $2 if you buy it by itself.

R12 Itself is not expensive itself. There is about $30 tax/lb. on it. Thank your local congressman for trying to discourage you from using the stuff. You used to be able to buy a 50 lb cylinder of r12 for about $60. Now, it's about $1550 bucks even with a license. That is the most insane tax Ive ever heard of.

[bass]

I just had my system checked and it was bone dry. I guess it might have a leak. The guy told me I should put in Freeze 12 and it would be about $130 to fill it up. Is this a good idea or are there cheaper replacements for R12? What is Freeze 12?

[Lester Lugnut]

Freeze-12 is an alternative refrigerant. It sells for about $11-$12 a can when you buy it by the 12 can case. It also requires a special tap to feed it into the low pressure side.

Freeze-12 is 80% R134A and 20% R142B. In my mind it's a rip off because you can buy 100% R134A for $4-$5 dollars a can.

In order to buy Freeze-12 from the supplier, you need a 609 certification which you can obtain from the WEB from various sites. Costs about $20. I got mine in '98 so I could still use R-12 which blows cooler than R134A.

Here's my take on this.

R134A is fine if your car came from the factory with it. I'm not saying retrofits(converting from R-12 to R134A) do not work. I will say that many do not and for many reasons. Too many to list.
If you live in a cooler place like ACCORDLX, then an R134A retro might work for you. If you live in Phoenix or Houston, it might not.

[DBMaster]

If you want to ask a question about this or look up information I found this site to be pretty good...

http://vintagecars.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aircondition.com %2F

I don't remember if it was on this site or another information on six different R12 replacements. One of the things you are trying to do with these blends is maintain a relatively inert gas in your system. The reason they blend other refrigerants with 134a is to lower operating pressures. It is the higher pressures in the system with 134a that will eventually kill it if it was not designed for it.

I think the theme here is regardless of what you do you should fix any leaks in your system first. Leaking any refrigerant cannot be good for the environment or you wallet, even if the stuff only costs a few bucks a can.

Easy for me to say, I guess, since I had the money to fork over for a new system. I hate the heat here, though, and A/C is very important to me.

Take it easy.

[valerit1]

I wonder why nobody mentions a very good solution
for people living in the South - Texas, California, etc. -
simply periodically driving to Mexico where R-12 is still
produced, readily avalable and cheap - and fill up! Plus
plenty of other reasons to do it - like meeting nice mexican
girls, also fairly inexpensive....

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[smufguy]

well if that is hard for ppl like me who live up in north, why not some dude from mexico buy us some R12 and sell it here? is there anyone on the board old engough to buy a R12. Do u have to have a licence to purchase that? if it is that case, i am sure they are friends with some mechanic and they could somehow get a hold of it and sell it for us. hell if i was in mexico, i would be selling R12 (if i get hold of it) on this board. PPL NEED IT!!!!!! :mad:

[valerit1]

It is illegal to bring R-12 to the U.S., but it is OK to recharge
your system there.

[Afrosheen]

How about I drive to Mexico and charge my system that's rerouted to a 100lb can under my hatch? :D Then I give it away free to my friends after they donate money to my website? Sure it's legal...:super:

[DBMaster]

I was under the impression that the manufacturing ban was worldwide. I wold be leery of this Mexican R12. I have heard rumors from a couple of reliable sources that some unscrupulous folks down there are putting propane into R12 labeled cans. Without an odorant added to the propane you would not know the difference and it WOULD mix with your R12 and work in your A/C system.

The jury's still out on whether or not it is really an explosion or fire hazard, though.

Valerit, have you actually gone down to Mexico and purchased R12?

Later,

[valerit1]

Lots of countries did not join the convension and continue making and using R-12, without giving a damn about EPA.
That is one of the stupid things about the whole ordeal -
countries like Mexico, former Soviet Union, China keep freely
releasing the freon over their huge territories, and EPA is
screwing the U.S. people over the issue achieving virtually
nothing even if the whole story about the ozone has some merit.

My AC still works (knock on the wood), but I know many people
who have a minor leak and go to Mexico every year or so for this purpose. Of course, like with all things in Mexico you can be fooled - but it is true everywhere if things are cheap - causion
is always needed.

[DBMaster]

Before the leak in my Keihin compressor got worse and the clutch stopped engaging I used to have to add about 1/2 can per year. I just added half a can three years after having the system replaced so I guess I am way ahead now. I still have four cans of R12 on the shelf, too.

Definitely a pisser about other countries having R12. Leave it to us to have to be the ones to set "the example." If we are all going to die from UV exposure caused by missing ozone we ought to at least be able to be comfortable.

Now, wait, isn't ozone one of the smog pollutants they are always griping about? If we could just figure out a way to get it from the ground to the upper atmosphere we'd have it made.

[mixmatch]

no ozone is the ozone layer...they grip about green house gases like co and co2 that eat away at ozone which is mainly made up of o3

[Afrosheen]

The way I understand it ozone is o3 and located mainly in the upper atmosphere. It protects us from UV and other radiation by filtering incoming light/solar rays. CFC's (chlorofluorocarbons) bond with o3 since o3 is an unstable molecule that freely bonds with many chemicals. The EPA's concern is that too many CFC's being produced and released into the atmosphere would lead to the 'holes' in the ozone widening. They've seen that the holes are indeed widening but missed the point.

The earth has cycles, some consisting of thousands of years. During these cycles there's warming, a peak, then cooling. It's natural and no amount of CFC's can really influence it much.

The studies done by the EPA have largely ignored evidence related to the cycles, hence you get alot of other countries ignoring what the US and EPA have done in regards to CFC reduction. It's still controversial to this day in the scientific community. The thing is, if the Earth is in the middle of a warming cycle, and you do experiments or research related to chemical X eating holes in the ozone and causing global warming, your results are going to support your assumption. That's not to say that your methods are wrong or your results are false, just that it takes an extremely long time to come up with something concrete in this case.

One last thing to think about is that o3 is created daily and is the byproduct of lightning strikes and other natural phenomena. The electrified air ionizes and charges oxygen in the atmosphere and since oxygen is very reactive it bonds with other oxygen molecules forming o3. Fresh new o3, daily. I hope most of you are reading and not saying: :wtf:

OK brain back off. Charge your system with whatever you want. :pimp:

[smufguy]

got a denso for free from the junk. dude just gave it to me cause i buy lotsa stuff from him. the clutch play is good. ijust gonna clean it good.

[DBMaster]

Guys, the smog here on Texas DOES contain ground level ozone as one of its components. It shows up mainly in the summer as a by product of UV rays reacting with autmotbile exhaust. I was not mistaken there. Of course, there is also NO, CO, SO2, etc.

All lovely choices for your respirating pleasure.

[DarkkManX]

my A/C doesn't work. Here in NY some days the heat is 85+ with high humidity. Driving on a highway with the windows open when there is traffic or roadwork is almost intolerable for me and my GF.

Without getting into whats "unlawful" or not, how do i rectify this situation? What options do I have and what costs are assosciated?

thanks
DarkManX

[DBMaster]

Do you have any idea why your A/C is not working at this point? Before you can weigh the options you need to know if you have just lost enough freon to make the system shut off, or if you need major work.

There are a lot of options. Which one you take depends upon how much you want to spend and how long you want to keep the car (with a functioning A/C system, that is).