87 keihin 2bbl rebuild

[doug]

OK, hello to everyone. My first post, I found the board this morning and have been reading alot. I bought a 87 Accord Hatchback DX a month ago. It's a fairly good car, but I bought it knowing a carb problem (cold start and poor idle) existed. I'm looking at a rebuild and want to ask if there is anything on the net yet explaining the steps for the 2bbl Keihin. First off, who offers the best (most complete) rebuild kit? Is the float seperate?
Where to get the float? Stuff like that. I looked at buying a remanufactured unit from Foriegn Carb for $249 and Holley for
$329. I went and pulled a carb from a recent totalled 87 for $50
and now need info on kits, or if someone has a tip on a good rebuilding service that is $150 - $200 for a complete rebuild worth a shake I'd like to hear about that also. Another thing, I've rent space on a good server in Dallas and can hook up interested parties for low prices if anyone one needs web space. Anyway, damn glad I found this board, thanks for any tips.

[ACCORD EX]

welcome !

instead of rebuilding the carb you can get a weber carb ! and you'll gain performance too ! ;)

MIKE

[dj99]

Keep reading! There are many other things I would try before attempting a carb rebuild on a 3g I just bought. I would try a full tune up, distributor cap/rotor, set ignition timing, wires, o2 sensor, pcv valve, etc. Most of these items can cause bad starting/idle problems.

If these things don't help at all, it would probably will need them anyway at its age!
;)

[doug]

I've spent time with the car isolating (I think) the problem. At present a 1-2 second burst of starting fluid spray and the car starts immediately, goes to 2 grand fast idle and drops when warm. This tells me accelerator pump (which interestingly enough does not squirt that much when tested by operating throttle linkage). I know for a fact the accelerator pump is screwed. And the Weber carb while seemingly great idea, kinda screws me on the vacuum situation, as I've already checked that out and from what I've been told the stock vacuum connections are tossed. So, can someone explain the loss of vacuum to alot of systems and how that is overcome? Anyway, I appreciate the upfront responses but I'd like to hear about what I asked about (if possible) and get some recommendations on best kits and possible rebuilders. Thanks.

[dj99]

Why not drop that totalled 87's carb right in? Just asking!:D

[dj99]

This might be a more useful response:

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=Accord&catcgry2=1987&catcgry3=3DR+DX&catcgry4=KA5MT&catcgry5=CARBURETOR

:rolleyes:

[doug]

basically because of the hassle. you just don't *drop* these carbs in. when I install it I only wanna do it once if at all possible, hence rebuild the sucker now and know it's right instead of putting it in and finding out it is not right. does that make sense?
seems perfectly clear to me, but I'm an old burnout.

[A20A1]

Well I tried to buy the rebuild kits but they would always send me the wrong kit... it was either from the civic or prelude carbs... so i ended up making the gaskets myself and replacing the o-rings in the float adjustment screw... oh make sure the tension spring on the accelerator pump it tight... i had to buy a new spring because the old one would cause a delay from the time i pressed the gas to the time the accelerator plunger started to move.

I got most of the spare parts from various hardware stores and the gasket material from the auto store.

If you can find the kit then it will be a whole lot easier... but I won't be able to give you much instruction on which o-ring goes where and such.

a few things to note:
The float adjustment screw has to be turned inwards to be removed (Clockwise)... remove the float first so the screw can be removed.

The float screw loves to leak gas once you fiddle with it, so you better have the kit or spare o-rings handy.

the carb cannot be turned upside down... or esle it wont work.

[A20A1]

hmm you could convert to mechanical seconndary... with the spare A/C idle boots parts.

[POS carb]

don't rebuild or buy a rebuild carb either, not worth the expense. More likely your troubles are related to all the vacuum-operated components the carb runs on and getting a weber will allow you to remove them all for the price of a factory rebuid carb
just hope you don't have to get smogged

[CARBurn]

Originally posted by ACCORD EX
welcome !

instead of rebuilding the carb you can get a weber carb ! and you'll gain performance too ! ;)

MIKE

I second that!!!!
VRRROOOOOOOOOOOOM!

[doug]

well, all the aftermarket carb hype aside, I've decided to do a stock Keihin 2bbl rebuild and plan to document via photo and text the procedure. I guess I'm old fashioned. Anyway I'm in need of assistance for the project, which will be on my site, and if response is good from this one I'll donate the write-up for a
howto here. It's a valid undertaking. Any takers for helping?
Right now I need some serious knowledge of the various vacuum ports, pots, and linkage. Thanks.

[ACCORD EX]

check these 2 links about carbs one is done by POS CARB adn the other by me !:D

http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74
http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117


enjoy
MIKE

[shepherd79]

Welcome to the board.
well, it sounds like your fuel pump doesn't pump the fuel or ot does and it is not enough. if you have Autozone where you live, go there and see if you can load the fuel pressure gauge. you should be able to tell, if the presure is not stable it is your pump.
on the top of this, your carb is not starting because it needs a little tune up. first try to find the idle crew it is on the back, big black thing. try turning clockwise. this should increase the RMP when it idles. just remember how many time you turn, so you could go back to normal position.
if turning the crew didn't help see if you can find a vacuum leak. it is common on carb engines.
another thing you should consider is changing fuel filters. there are two of them. one under the left rear wheel. and the other one next to the carb. they could be so dirty. that they don't allow any fuel to go through.
you should be able to get filters under $10 in autozone or anyother parts store.
but try to do the tune up and stuff like that.
if still want to rebuild carb. you can get a kit from autozone for like $30-40 it took me 1 hour to do this. it has every gasket and o-rings. it even comes with manual. when you gonna do it. do not touch the mixture screw. it is the one on the bottom of the carb sealed with a metall plug. it is bitch to addjust it.
i think this all i have.
i've been playing with Keihin carb since i got it.

[doug]

well here is what I have so far.
http://87accord.com/carbpage.html
if any of you can fill in some info that would help
I think my email [email protected] is working
if not [email protected] is. Thanks for any help.
I apologize to non-broadband people, I'll optomize
the images and content later.

[shepherd79]

you are preatty much set man.
just start working from the top to the bottom.
as i said don't take out mixture screw out. you will have a very hard time adjusting back to where it was.
on the choke part, where it says take it apart, i didn't do it. so i don't know how. but the rest of them are pready easy.

[ACCORD EX]

pretty good man ! good work ! :super: :super:


MIKE

[A20A1]

Front side of carb

A.Idle Control Diaphragm (High vaccum lowers idle. Low vaccum increases idle)
B.Throttle cable bracket
C.Choke opener diaphragm
D.vacuum port (Controls Vaccum Secondary Diaphragm)
E.vacuum port(Air Jet Controller - Letter "?")
F.Vaccum Secondary Diaphragm (Opens secondary Barrel)
G.Float bowl vent Pipe

[A20A1]

Rear side of carb

A.a/c idle boost vacuum port
B.a/c idle boost vacuum diaphragm
C.Accelerator pump linkage
D.Vacuum port (Power Valve - Connects to Manifold Vaccum)
E.Vacuum port (To Air Jet Controller - Letter "?")
F.Coolant hose (Carb base plate heater)
G.vacuum port (?)
H.Idle fuel/air mixture screw
I.Vacuum port (?)
J.Ignition Fuel shutoff solenoid
K.Vacuum port (To Air Jet Controller - Letter "?")
L.Vent port (Fuel - To charchol Canister)
M.Fast idle adjust screw
N.Throttle Stop Screw (Sets primary throttle plate opening)
O.Choke unloader cover

[doug]

thanks A20A1. I have updated the page. I'm gonna get all
the vacuum hose numbers for the ports when I do the install and that may help in identifying the operational nature of each port.
I've also got a writeup on the actual rebuild with photos in progress and will try to get that online by next weekend. The complete howto should then be available for this forum then if the admin wants it. The project still needs work, so anyone reading take a look and see if ya got anything to add. Thanks.

[A20A1]

On letters "G" and "I", I put (Carb throttle / Manifold vacuum) cause the vacuum port exits into the primary barrel but since it's below the throttle plate, as the throttle opens. The port is considered manifold vacuum.
The letters of the Air Jet controller are: A,B,& C. I'm still not sure which one goes where...


Rear side of carb

A.a/c idle boost vacuum port
B.a/c idle boost vacuum diaphragm
C.accelerator pump linkage
D.vacuum port (power valve - connects to manifold vacuum)
E.vacuum port (to air jet controller - letter "?")
F.coolant hose (carb base plate heater)
G.vacuum port (primary carb throttle / manifold vacuum)
H.idle fuel/air mixture screw
I.vacuum port (primary carb throttle / manifold vacuum)
J.fuel shutoff solenoid
K.vacuum port (to air jet controller - letter "?")

On Letter "L" I made a mistake

L.vacuum port ( Venturi vacuum to charcoal canister)
M.fast idle adjust screw
N.throttle stop screw (sets primary throttle plate opening)
O.choke unloader cover

[A20A1]

Left side of carb

A.float bowl vent tube
B.vacuum port (float bowl vent valve diaphragm)
C.float fuel level view window
D.secondary vacuum diaphragm linkage to secondary throttle
E.main jet cover
F.a/c idle boost screw
G.fuel line port (1/4")
H.vacuum port (primary venturi vacuum)
I.accelerator pump linkage
J.vacuum diaphragm port, a/c idle boost(need info)

[A20A1]

I changed the word IDLE to THROTTLE in letter A.
Check for other changes.

Front side of carb

A.Idle Control Diaphragm (High manifold vacuum lowers throttle. Low manifold vacuum increases throttle)
B.throttle cable bracket
C.choke opener diaphragm
D.vacuum port (primary and secondary venturi vacuum: Controls Secondary vaccum diaphragm)
E.vacuum port, Air jet controller, letter ?
F.vacuum secondary diaphragm (opens secondary throttle plate)
G.float bowl vent tube

[POS carb]

I've bought that kit before, it is my honest opinion that it is totally not worth the hassle of rebuilding these carbs because they are so fragile and complex, plus I guarantee you'll lose something lol
I have pics of my rebuild if you want but I must warn you I can't tell you if it was a success because I turned it upside-down during the rebuild (instant death for these carbs!!!)

[doug]

well, POS carb, I can't see the problem of inverting the carb
during rebuild, in fact you need to invert the bowl cover to get
the float out. And in order to set the float during re-assembly you invert the cover, then go diagonally. The throttle body can be inverted, no problem, and the bowl assembly too. The inverting thing as far as I know is in fully assembled there is a chance of a stuck float. What exactly causes instant death when inverting a float cover, or throttle body, or bowl assembly?

[A20A1]

did you get the info? I posted some changes above...

I still don't know about the carb flipping but if you can flip it then I'm gonna do some serious barrel polishing.

[POS carb]

you can plip the top, I still don't understand what inside the carb gets ruined but my guess it is in relation to the power valve because the float leaks all the fuel out and that has toeither come out of the jets or through the powervalve out some unknown passage (which is connected to the jets)

[rocky2]

I have to agree with POS-carb. Do a COMPLETE tuneup 1st. Then do a vacum leak check if filters/plugs wires cap, doesn't help then carb. 1st clean carb. Just boneyard them forget about rebuilding them. Get as many as cheap as possible and install till one runs good. Last gereration carbs on any late model ride all suck. Remember if air goes though intake instead of into carb, proper fuel/air mixture is adversely affected. So check that mile of 10-13 year old rotted vacum hoses 1st,thats why 3-g carbs run bad.

[POS carb]

AMEN!
Don't forget to check your intake manifold gasket also, mine had a leak by the #1 cylinder but I didn't know it because my idle was rock solid but the exhaust smelled rich but the car FELT lean and turns out I had 3 rich cylinders and one lean one

[doug]

this weekend I'm rerouting all the vacuum lines that use the
metal tubing rack that is behind the carb. I want to eliminate
that piece from my setup. I've found it makes R&R of the carb
about 4 times the effort it needs to be. The reason for the
rebuild is that it is the least expensive option. For 120 bucks
I'm good to go (if it works :) ) About flipping the thing, you
pretty much have to. The bowl cover to remove the float, the
bowl assembly to do the accelerator pump and to get the
four screws that mount the throttle body. The power valve
is not affected by up/down orientation. Of course I'll eventually
find out when I get hooked up but that has been delayed due
to a hell of alot of rain here in central florida the last 2 weeks
bringing to light a leak that needs to be found and fixed. One last thing, I'm thinking most everyone here is kinda young, like under 30-40 or so, I'm fifty. I've rebuit VW(1972-74), Honda(1980),Porsche(1973-76), and Chevy(1975) carbs. THis Keihin 2bbl is no more delicate or complex than others, in fact it's easy. I also don't subscribe to the junk it theory if it can be rebuilt and I usually try to fix something first, if I fail, well, I move on to the next option. I never really wanted a bunch of opinions on what I should do, just some help with what I decided to do, and I thank the ones that have helped.

[rocky2]

Have you ever rebuilt a VV ford carb. Or a 1981-87 mopar 2.6 Mikinui. Or GM 1980-1985 electric? These are the last breed of "JUNK" carbs. UNREBIULDABLE!! Thank God for Fuel injection.I used to rebuild all my carbs too until these poped up. I still think its not worth the time and money to fool with a Honda carb. Just go and get all they have at the boneyard. Just my thought

[doug]

finished the carb install about an hour ago. the car started right off and held a good fast idle then dropped, after a few minor warm idle adjustments, out on the road for a quick test, much nicer. back home, a couple warm start tests, no problems. only thing major that needs work is the a/c idle boost, that can wait.
anyway, this carb was turned everyway possible during the rebuild, after final assembly, it was held level. there are no leaks, it holds good fuel level, at this easrly point it seems to be a successful rebuild. write up and pictures soon, I hope.

[doug]

ok, well back from a ride on the local interstate. fairly low traffic today heading away from the beach and I got top speed of 115 on first run, level roadway. previously top speed was 100, with alot of surge, the surge is gone now. But I need an alignment for sure, ha ha. anyway, what top speeds are the 3 g's getting out there? mine speedo is 130mph, I'd like to bury the needle there someday. all is well so far with the keihin rebuild, very happy. it seems solid, surge is gone, quick start up is there, top speed improved, loads more torque in the power band. very much worth the effort. I'd say to anybody, try it(the rebuild), you'll like it.

[doug]

one more thing. thanks A20A1. I really appreciate the help. as far as I know and have done, you can flip this carb any way you want to polish the barrels. I did. I'll have some pics of my polished barrels up soon, although slightly out of focus due to lack of macro ability. later.

[doug]

me again. jeez, i'm sorry for being such a gluton on this rebuild, but I just got in from a few more adjustments, this time on the a/c idle. what I did was boost the normal idle to 1 thousand and then cut the a/c on, it dropped to below 500, so I got it to 800 and guess what? it is a rock solid 800. I took it out and with a/c off I get a rock solid 1 thousand(OK, for now) and with a/c on I get a rock steady 800 (nice!), take it out with a/c on, crusing at
3 grand, push in clutch for stop light, rock solid 800, no burps, no
hesitation. if it seems I'm gloating, I am. I'm a happy camper.
peace out.

[dj99]

You should be happy! You nailed the problem square, and had the rocks to ignore all of us! :D

I hope I never have to rebuild mine, but I would look forward to perusing your pics and advice if the time comes. ;)