87 DX automatic hesitates when accelerating...

[Poodlehead]

Like the accelerator pump is bad, but I've looked down in the bore and see a good single stream of gas when I push the throttle. I assume there should only be one stream?

A little background on this car. I just got it and it only has 66K miles on it, but it has sat up quite a bit. It has had quicklube and Walmart type mechanics working on it. I've found a few problems with vacuum lines that I'm hoping is my problem, but not sure where they go or hookup to. I've looked at some of the diagrams found on this site but still confused so hopefully you all can help me.

There is one metal line on the right hand side of the carb at the top that makes a right angle and points toward the front of the car . Does this hookup to anything or should it be plugged?

On the lefthand side, hose # 17 is just dangling from the bottom of the air cleaner. Is that normal?

Hose # 18 from the metal line at the left rear of the carb is plugged and dangles with a piece of red tape around the rubber.

The plastic nozzle on a part that hose #32 connects to (to the front left of the carb) is broken. In the process of JB Welding that now.

There is also an open metal line on the left fenderwell next to hose #30 and #32. Is that normal.

I'm hoping some of these problems will fix my bad hesitation problem. Even at low speeds it hesitates too, but especially when going from a standing start. This is an automatic.

I've got pics, but too stupid right now to know how to post here, but I can email them to anyone. Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks!
Pat
[email protected]

[A20A1]

Originally posted by Poodlehead

There is one metal line on the right hand side of the carb at the top that makes a right angle and points toward the front of the car . Does this hookup to anything or should it be plugged?


Could be to the A/C or Cruise control



On the lefthand side, hose # 17 is just dangling from the bottom of the air cleaner. Is that normal?


#17 could connect to that open port you mentioned since #17 has a connection on the right side of the carb.



Hose # 18 from the metal line at the left rear of the carb is plugged and dangles with a piece of red tape around the rubber.

Hmm, I don't have the diagram with me but I think that is to the choke... we need to go over this more carefully and get it fixed right.



The plastic nozzle on a part that hose #32 connects to (to the front left of the carb) is broken. In the process of JB Welding that now.

uhh, be real careful you don't clogg the port.



There is also an open metal line on the left fenderwell next to hose #30 and #32. Is that normal.

I'm hoping some of these problems will fix my bad hesitation problem. Even at low speeds it hesitates too, but especially when going from a standing start. This is an automatic.

I've got pics, but too stupid right now to know how to post here, but I can email them to anyone. Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks!
Pat
[email protected]

One problem at a time :D

[A20A1]

ewe... all my replies are mixed in with your questions... it's a bit messy, I'm sorry.

[A20A1]

LOL

I forgot I had this... click on the link it should solve some problems
http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12208

[Poodlehead]

Thanks for the link. I actually looked at that same diagram days before and misread it. I see now the metal line on the right side of the carb (that was open - now plugged) should connect vacuum line #6 to some sort of 'check valve' and then goes to the throttle control diaphram.

I've got a line #20 connected to this diaphram and then it goes over to the right side of the car under the air intake behind the battery. There is also another #20 line that comes off a tree connected to the intake and runs along parallel with the #20 line that is connected to the throttle control diaphram and disappears under the air intake behind the battery (I didn't follow these to the end yet).

There is a #17 on the right side that is connected to the hardline on the backside of the carb. The other end of the hardline connects to the rear most port of the a/c idle boost(2 ports on this controller). The other port on the a/c idle boost connects to #21 hardline at left rear of carb.

Hardline #18 at the left rear of carb is plugged with a piece of red tape around the plugged end of the hose. Hose #17 connected to the air cleaner just dangles

I also found a busted hose #7 on the lower backside of the carb. That has been repaired along with the plastic port that #32 hose connects to on some valve.

With these last 2 fixes (#7 and #32) I tested the car and it does idle smoother and hesitation from standing start happens less. When it does still hesitate, it's like the accel pump is bad, but sometimes it happens for a full second making me think it might be some sort of actuator or dist. adv. sticking. The car has sat up for a while so maybe just a good exercising will help it, but I'd still like to get the vacuum lines hooked up correctly.

Thanks for the help!
Pat

[DanG86LX]

Forget about #6 to throttle controller (TC), that's for MT and some 86 AT.
If u got #20 to TC then look here! (http://www.angelfire.com/sd/bryhig/honda/vacdiag.html)
Ur car may or may not be equipped with all systems (as on diagram), u have to identify them yourself.

#17 and #21 have no common part as from diagram! those hardlines are easily mistaken where they connect to..

#17 is a general air bleed line which takes air from air cleaner to different (thermo)valves.. If it's dangling there, whoever unplug it, it might have plugged the line where #17 used to go and that's bad!

#18 helps with releasing high idle cam when starting the car and leaving it there to warm up.. less important.

Trouble with "accel pump" is, it should deliver the right amount of gas, too much or too little = hesitate. There is a leak jet controlling pump output here. (http://3geez.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15837&perpage=20&pagenumber=2)

I agree "dist. adv. sticking" could be a prob, both vacuum and centrifugal adv.

[Poodlehead]

I don't know what happened to the post I 'thought' I made last night, but it didn't make it here...

That is a 'killer' daigram for the vacuum hoses and what they hook up to.

It looks like the 2 - #20 hoses are right. The diagram shows #20 going from the throttle controller to item 23 (pulse rectifier) and item 24 (frequency solenoid valve C). Then the other side of item 24 has #20 hose going to the intake. I guess item 23 and 24 are located near the right fender well since that's where the 2 - #20 hoses go.

I think I traced out the #17 and #21 hardlines right (17 hardline is at the top behind the left rear of the carb assuming the white plastic # is correct). I see the a/c idle boost solenoid does have 2 ports on it in the diagram (#21 & #30) so mine is connected part way right with #21 connected to it. If hardline at the top left rear of the carb really is #17, something is AFU there.

When I start the car, it stays on a fast idle until I blip the throttle. Is #18 hose suppose to idle it down without blipping the throttle? It looks like #18 should be connected to thermovalve A. Is that one of the two items attached to the air cleaner?

Do you know if there is a diagram that shows the location for those 39 components in the diagram? I'm still learning what these things are and what they do. Once I get these vacuum lines right, I'll doublecheck the advance on the dist. I think the accel pump is OK. I appreciate the help!

Thank you!

[DanG86LX]

"..It looks like #18 should be connected to . Is that one of the two items attached to the air cleaner?.."

No, thermovalve A is at intake manifold to firewall side, the one with 3 prongs with vacuum lines:
#17 bottom, to air box (air bleed)
#18 top, to inner Fast Idle Unloader (FIU) and outer Choke Opener.
#19 top, to outer FIU, charcoal can, EGR

T-valve A bleeds #18 below 15*C and #19 below 55*C (that's coolant temp)
Vacuum source on #18 comes from Choke Opener through carb internal passage - intake.

So if u start engine and leave it to high idle, when coolant > 15*, FIU step-down fast idle cam (~ 2 steps), then after 55*C another 1..2 steps...assuming Choke Heater is ok!

[Poodlehead]

Sorry to be so anal, but I'm not finding thermovalve A. I guess it's somewhere on the backside of the carb, but can you please be a little more specific.

What does it look like? Is it attatched to the carb, which corner, down at the base or ???

The fast idle appears to work OK, but I must blip the throttle to lower it. Is that normal or should it lower on it's own without blipping the throttle?

Do you know where hose #17 from the bottom of the air cleaner connects? Is it to one of the metal lines attached to the left rear corner of the carb or metal lines on the left fender well or ???

Is there a component location page that shows where all the components related to the vacuum diagram are?

Thanks all!
Pat

[DanG86LX]

Oh man, as i posted thermovalve A is at intake manifold to firewall side, plugged horizontally.
Here i scanned 2 pages for u:
http://www.ualberta.ca/~dg5/Honda/Emissions/InterconnectAT.tif
http://www.ualberta.ca/~dg5/Honda/Emissions/ControBoxAT.tif

Follow engine - intake manifold , there are 2 T-valves there: the one with 3 prongs is T-valve A. #19 @ the base, #18 and #17 at the top, all sideways.

"...The fast idle appears to work OK, but I must blip the throttle to lower it. Is that normal or should it lower on it's own without blipping the throttle?"
No, it should lower on it's own, in 2 steps according to coolant temp. If not, look at Fast Idle Unloader ports should hold vacuum, or #18 and #19 don't get vacuum when they should:
#18 above ~15*C
#19 above ~55*C

[Poodlehead]

Ahhhh! It's starting to 'sink in'. I was looking for some other kind of do-dad with a 3 prong connector plus vacuum lines, but I think I know what you are talking about now. It bolts into the intake. I will check this later this week. Thanks for the great pages too. I see now Honda hid several items in the black box... I hope to mess with this later this week.

Thanks for the help and your patience.

[Poodlehead]

Ok I've found my 2 TVs, but both have 2 prongs only. The center one is blue and the outter one toward the driver side is black and sticks out longer. Hose #17 connect to the end prongs on both TVs. Then Hose #17 connects a metal line and the metal line connects to the rear most port on the a/c idle boost solenoid. I know there should only be one port on the a/c idle boost solenoid, but mine has 2. On the blue TV, the other hose is #25 which connects to a metal line. On the long black TV, the other hose is #19 and connects to the metal line.

How do these TVs work? Are they just a temperature actuated switch that connect both ports together when they heat up from the intake manifold?

I also monitored my fast idle unloader cam. It appears when I first start the car that vacuum comes from one of the choke opener ports for #18 hose. I was expecting vacuum to come from the other end of the line instead of the choke opener. No vacuum ever was applied to #19 (after about 2 minutes) so I applied vacuum with my hand vacuum pump but it would not pull the cam off it's step.

Do I have some screwed up vacuum routing, screwed up unloader or am I just friggen stupid and missing the boat?

Thanks!

[Poodlehead]

I just reread your info from above and realize the vacuum source for #18 is correct thru the choke opener. Still I've only got 2 prongs on each TV. I just unhooked #17 from the a/c idle boost solenoid, capped the port and started the car. Still can't unload from #19.

I looked at taking the cover off the unloader and realized all the metal lines cover up 2 of the screws. Gotta love it... NOT!!!

[Poodlehead]

OK, I've looked at the blue TV a little closer and it looks like there could have been a prong sticking out on the end that was broken off and then sealed shut. Man I sure wish it was eaiser to see this stuff...

[DanG86LX]

That's T-valve A man! #19 gets vacuum from #18 through T-valve A when coolant > 55*C. But yours is broken. Look around T-valve A and see where #19 is, maybe is hanging there, then plug it with a T to #18.

"..No vacuum ever was applied to #19 (after about 2 minutes) so I applied vacuum with my hand vacuum pump but it would not pull the cam off it's step."

Check that Fast Idle Unloader ports hold vacuum (i.e. where #18 and #19 plug into).. each of them should.

[Poodlehead]

Made a trip to the bone yard today and now I see that I have a broken prong on the bottom side of the long black TV, so this must be TV-A. According to the diagram you sent and my hose #'s, the broken one is #18 so that's why no vacuum to #19 (this pinout appears to be slightly different from what you mentioned; maybe that's due to year models??).

Applying vacuum with a Mityvac will move the fast idle unloader, but they won't hold vacuum. They bleed off in about a second so it sounds like that along with the broken prong on my TV is why it doesn't idle down on it's own.

I had a hose dangling that looked plugged, but it was actually the broken prong from TV-A. I removed the TV and JB welded it for right now. Maybe next weekend I'll see what they want for the entire carb, vacuum stuff and I'll get the TV's too.

Also I found out the rear port on the AC idle adjust goes to a metal line on the left fenderwell. If you are standing by the left front wheel, it is the metal line on the lower right of the double row of metal lines attached to the fenderwell.

Thank you for your help!!!