Hello Everyone - Do I Replace the Engine or Rebuild It?

[it's paid for]

Hello Everyone,

I realize my '83 Accord isn't within the "norm" here, but I'm looking forward to hanging out here and I hope to be able to contribute useful information in the future . . . hey, it's not like I'm driving a '63 Beetle . . .

I have a lengthy story . . . sorry . . .

I recently bought an '83 Accord and it's blowing smoke. It has 215K miles and it blows a lot of smoke when you're taking off from a stoplight.

A friend of mine told me the head needed a valve job and a machine shop should charge me about $150 for this if I do the labor. I have done some basic mechanical repairs in the past - replacing water pumps, alternators, tune up kits, changing oil, brake pads, et cetera. I have never tackled anything beyond these basic repairs and I am seriously considering doing one of the following to my car:

1 - replacing the engine with a used one
2 - having the head taken to the shop for a valve job

When I bought the car I was told this car was "in the family" since it was purchased new and it looks like it as it is in really good condition. I have been either severely under- or unemployed for the last 19 months and I just recently obtained a job - my commute is 22 miles each way - mostly highway. I have a great garage in my basement where I could work on the car but I am quite timid about tackling this project. I bough the car for $500 and I've had it for about a month. At highway speed, it cruises just fine and I was told when I bought it, it had the clutch replaced recently. I've already become attached to this car. I was also told it would be "okay" for me to keep driving the car until I can get the engine problem resolved. I'm considering two options:

Option #1 - I have shopped around and found two engines I can obtain from local salvage yards - each is about $350. I have access to a friend's "cherry picker" and engine stand, but I've never done anything like replacing an engine before and frankly, I'm somewhat apprehensive about this procedure.

Option #2 - I was told by a friend of mine who used to be a Honda mechanic, that the head definitely needs to be reworked and the rings may be okay for a while longer. He said I could just try putting on the head after a valve job and see if that would solve the problem of burning oil. If I knew the rings were going to need replacing, it seems like a difficult task to remove the oil pan and replace the rings while the block is still in the engine. It also seems like it would be a good idea to remove the entire crank and replace the crank bearings - which seems impossible if I was accessing the block via the oil pan area.

Money is the primary motivating factor behind this venture - I have very little. Another motivator is the facination of doing it myself - going where I've never been before - somewhat scary - somewhat exciting. The good news is my wife and I have two cars which run great in addition to the "new" Honda, so, I can take time after work and on Saturdays to work on the car. I also have shopped around and found a great machine shop closeby that does Honda heads - highly recommended by two reputable and independent sources. My 2nd son is going to college soon (my first son is already in college) and I would like to get this car running so I can go to work and let him use our other car so he can gain employment.

I want to do option #2, hoping I can get by with the rings as they are. I think the car has generally been in good hands and treated fairly well (routine oil changes, et cetera). If I take route #2 and fix the head, what parts and special tools will I need? I'm guessing the procedure is explained in good detail in a Haynes manual and on the Internet with web sites like yours? Is it possible that I could fix the head and get by with the rings for a while longer without replacing them?

I was going to rely on the local parts store to get a list of parts I'll need for option #2, including a timing belt and pump (oil/water), all the gaskets I'd need & so forth. I am optimistic I can do this if I get a Haynes manual (or similar) and just take it slow and easy, taking notes & photos as I go. The whole idea of removing and replacing an engine seems so gigantic and difficult, yet I realize this might be my best, and lowest cost short term solution.

What should I do?

Thanks very much,

IPF
:)

[MrBen]

Well in all honesty, I am in the exact same boat as you. The decision however isn't a hard one for me. I tend to be a perfectionist when it comes to my car, so if I fix something, I want it done right and I don't want to do it again. Hence, my decision is to just buy an import engine from Japan with low miles on it. It frees me of my worries and it's done right, the first time.

However, if you decide to go with route number 2, I would put new rings on. You're in there, so why not just get it over with? Otherwise, as soon as you get rolling again, you'll be thinking "Ya now, I shoulda just replaced the damn rings on there." And with that many miles on that engine, it's a good idea.

In any event, you can drive your car as is. It isn't going to do much except use oil. Eventually the engine would have to be rebuilt or replaced, but maybe that's a good idea so you can save up some money in the meantime.

[it's paid for]

Does "Stop Smoke" work - you know the really thick additive (oil) from STP - or similar - that's supposed to reduce smoke?

My guess is that it might help a wee bit, but it seems like it would just gunk-up anything inside my engine, possibly causing more damage to the car than help.

Anyone recommend parts supplier for head and rings rebuild?

Finally - which parts manual is best - Haynes, Chiltons or other?

Thanks,

IPF

[MrBen]

I have been using the stop smoke additive and haven't really noticed a huge change, but it does help somewhat. I hate using those things but I figure the engine is on its way out within another 20,000 miles. These things can build up in places like the bottom of the oil pan.

Reference this thread for the rebuild: http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?threadid=24034

Haynes manual sucks, go with Chilton.

[zero.counter]

First of all, I would like to take the time and welcome you to 3Geez. Now that the pleasantries have been dispersed, on with the post.

I would say to stick with option #2, if you do not have the money right now. Like Ghetto said, replace the rings while you are there and of course, the head gasket, timing belt, intake manifold gasket, and even the water pump as you said. Before any of that is done, I would run a compression test. Make sure to check for warpage on the block and that the pistons are in good conditon. The smoke b gone is good for quick fixes (damn you used car salesmen!), but the problem may be deeper. You are correct in it being a pain in the ass to work from underneath the car while the engine is in place. The crossmember of those old hondas, as with most cars, will be in the way causing frustration.

Option #1 would require some more time and effort, but what if the engine has a smoking problem as well. Then you are back to square one. At least with this motor, you have a good idea of what has been done.

I personally like the Haynes manual more than the Chilton. It just seems to be more useful.

[it's paid for]

I'm going for it!!!

Though I've never done this before, I think I can do it . . . thanks for the comments/suggestions . . . I'll keep everyone updated as things progress . . .

IPF

[1988starter]

Lucas oil stabliser seems to help older cars a lot (worked on my firends 85 accord) 1 bottle lucas 3 bottles oil I use 5w30 10w30 seems a bit thick in the winter. I would use that then save for a full rebuild

[zero.counter]

Originally posted by 1988starter
Lucas oil stabliser seems to help older cars a lot (worked on my firends 85 accord) 1 bottle lucas 3 bottles oil I use 5w30 10w30 seems a bit thick in the winter. I would use that then save for a full rebuild
Lucas is car magic in a bottle, and thats all there is to that!

[NXRacer]

My dad has an 85 that had been smoking before and usually a head job will fix the smoking problem. His headgasket just went out because one of the fittings on the intake manifold went out and he ran out of water. If you are low on money i'd suggest either getting the head rebuilt. You might be in over your head if you pull out the pistons etc to rebuild your motor.

[it's paid for]

. . . You might be in over your head if you pull out the pistons etc to rebuild your motor.
Yeah - I tend to agree with you on that and I appreciate your opinion.

Question #3 - Okay - so, what if I just do the head - I was under the assumption it's okay to do the head first, put it back together and drive it without replacing the rings. Will this work, even if I have to do the rings many months later or will this make the top end "tight" and then add to the speedy ruin of my bottom end?

(I hate being so ignorant)

I was hoping just getting a valve job would fix the problem of smoking. It puffs a large "cloud" when I'm taking off - I feel sorry for the folks behind me - I should mount a camera to capture their gagging grimaces.

Actually, it's kinda funny, now that I think of it - :lol

jk

Besides taking the head to a shop for machining, what else should I plan on doing (& I'm guessing):


Timing belt
Oil pump
Water pump
Hoses
Gaskets, valve cover, head gasket, intake & exhaust manifold, what else?


I'm guessing I should wait to do the oil pan gasket later, like if I decide to do the rings?

Any recommendations for supply sources for this job? The guy at the local Advanced Auto Parts told me he's done two Honda's like that (replaced rings via dropping the oil pan) and he said it was really a drag to do it. I was thinking about going to him for parts - I'm sure they wouldn't be the cheapest, but his advice would seem worth a lot to me.

(sorry again & thanks in advance)

[NXRacer]

9 out of 10 times the reason a honda will puff smoke when you first take off is bad valve guides. I'd be willing to bet if you had your head rebuilt it would almost completely solve the problem. Having a good top end won't speed the demise of your bottom end.

[Vinny]

OK I know I'm getting in a little late on this post but I'm gonna put my 2 cents in anywho. I know you said you have 2 vehicles, but this is just a thought and eveyone is free to agree or disagree with my especially since I'm going to be starting a lil thread about my situation in the next few days.

If you can get a complete motor from a salvage yard and they will give it some kind of warranty or guauntee I would go ahead and get it, talk them down on the pricem I'm sure they will flex some.

Tear the motor down and have in checked out at a machine shop, if it checks out then your have a good start, if not, well thats why I said to get a warranty or guaruntee from the Salvage yard. Get a cheap engine stand and a good manual, you might even want to check EBAY for the actual Honda shop manual for it. Rebuild it yourself, you can rent most of the special tools free of charge from advance auto or Autozone. I look at it this way, even though you have 2 cars its always a pain having a family and being down to 1 car, so that eliminates that. If you do end up with more serious problems with the motor you have now, who cares you've got a good motor in the garage. It'd really suck to start trying to fix the one you have now and find that its gonna be a nightmare. You should be good for now driving it the way it is, just keep adding oil. Then when you get your other motor built its a weekend project to change it, and that minimizes your down time with just 1 running car

Just my opinion

[it's paid for]

NXRacer & My Cousin Vinny,

I really appreciate both points of view - THANKS very much.

I figure I will remove the head and blah, blah, blah.

I think I'd still like to get the used engine from the junk yard. I found a "running" engine for $350 at a salvage yard - that was their asking price - no negotiations were mentioned. Good grief, at that price, it seems like it'd be advantageous to have a backup engine - even if I just kept it in the corner of the garage and tinkered with it now & then while the existing engine was being used.

Getting an engine in & out of a car still seems like a gigantic task for me at this point - however, I am maintaining confidence I can do it if I just use some common sense, the right tools and take my time.

Let me yank the head & fix that, then when that's done right, I'll have more confidence to move on to better things.

Besides, I think just getting the head done at this point is the least expensive route, thus, blah, blah, blah.

Thanks again - I'll keep ya'll posted.

IPF

[Vinny]

Where you at in GA???????

[it's paid for]

I live just outside Cedartown - NW Georgia - near Rome . . . I'm about 4 miles from the AL border . . . where Deliverance is (unfortunately) still the most popular video rental (there's a waiting list on the clipboard when you go into the video store . . . and you never have to FF/RW to "the good part" . . . so they tell me :eek: ) . . .

. . . you can usually see where I'm located if you go to weather.com . . . just do a search for "satelite images of SE US" and look for the large grey smoke trail . . . that's my Honda . . . :rolleyes:

BTW - I just picked up my Haynes manual this afternoon . . . will my engine ever look that clean . . . is it possible?

Does anyone recommend the best way to clean my engine before I start working on it? I was thinking a can of engine degreaser at the local car wash would be my best bet . . . and yeah, I'll keep away from the distributor cap . . . thanks,

IPF

[MrBen]

If the car wash place has engine cleaner, just use that. Otherwise use the degreaser and then spray the hell out of your engine bay. I did this three times, and my engine looks new.

[it's paid for]

. . . I did this three times, and my engine looks new. Thanks for the advice . . . that's a lot of quarters . . . any problems w/water in the distributor cap?

[Jareds 89 LX-i]

If you're gonna spray the engine, it's a good idea to do it while it's running instead of while the engine is off. This way water usually boils off before it can soak down into things, and stuff is moving so it kinda helps keep water from building up in areas where it shouldn't (like the alternator!). I've done this quite a few times and never had a problem, and my engine bay looks almost like new as well

[MrBen]

I didn't have any problems. It works great! I accidently blew the sticker off the top of my fuse box, but I was able to glue it back on. Just be careful!

[2old_honda]

I cant believe nobody has mentioned this. You could swap in a A20 (the A20 is the engine that is in the 3rd gen accord). As far as I know it is basically a direct swap. Talk to PhydeauX. He has done this in his 2nd gen accord.

[2old_honda]

also, use a product called Simple Green to clean the engine. The stuff works wonders.

[it's paid for]

. . . use a product called Simple Green to clean the engine. The stuff works wonders. I have 3/4 gallon of that in the basement/garage - plus - a friend of mine gave me a bottle of Zep's citrus version of SG (whatever it's called - I forget) . . . what should I do with cleaner from a bottle like Simple Green - pour it on, and then take a brush & scrub and then wash off?

Oh man - wouldn't that be great to use with a power washer! Mine has a hose with a filter you can use to pick up detergets/et cetera out of a bucket and it sprays out with the blast of water . . .

. . . but I'm pretty sure my pressure washer is broken - my neighbor did that . . . :mad: . . . any alternative?

Thanks in advance,

IPF