Turbo vs Swap

[drknow]

Ok, Im drivin a stock 88 DX with no performance parts.......The engine has 30000 miles on it....the car has 160000 miles on it.....Would a turbo be better than just gettin a whole new engine with the extra horsepower. I mean, I really wanna hear the pissing sounds when I go down the road, but a new engine doesnt sound so bad either. What is the price difference in the two options?

[Sean]

dollar for dollar spent even doing a basic rebuild on the engine to freshen it. turbo beats a swap hands down dollar per HP gained.

[zero.counter]

Here is a question you must ask yourself, do you want reliability or speed? Yes, some may argue that you can definately get the turbo with reliability (low boost), but then what if something goes wrong?

I hope that others will contribute the advantages and disadvantages so you may get a better picture. Good Luck!

[Sean]

got news for you. the swap in motors are far less reliable then the one youd be taking out.also do you consider 10psi low boost ?

[deadlight]

Turbos can actually be pretty reliable, I hear alot of people saying they aren't, I mean really, there aren't a whole lot of moving parts there.

[Sean]

reliabilty issues stem from improper tunning to the most basic of all. people putting cheap gas in there shit. in fact gm put a piece of code in the controller im using for the ecm kits that figures out what grade of gas is in the car and retards spark to prevent knock. thats not to say that you shouldnt run 93 but if the wife g/f puts the wrong shit in itll save your motor.

[toastyghost]

Originally posted by deadlight
Turbos can actually be pretty reliable, I hear alot of people saying they aren't
A lot of people don't know what the fuck they're doing. More air requires more fuel.

[kicker1_solo]

you have an old cheap honda (just like me) with no money spent for performance.....do you really have the cash for a turbo, or even a nice swap?

[RobT5580]

As for turbos i dont see them as being less reliable but in my view of my plans if im gonna do a turbo (which i am) im not gonna spend that money for a low boost setup plus i do expect things to break if i beat the crap out of my car. I mainly worry about the transmission and clutch because they take a lot of abuse. But i am expecting my setup to hold up well unless i get carried away and beat on the car a lot. So reliability is based on if you build it properly and how you drive your car.

[2old_honda]

An unreliable turbocharged car is usually due to user error.

[drknow]

Hmmm....this has me thinkin. I gotta get one :)

[RobT5580]

Easier said than done.....Make sure you know what your getting into before you make big plans. I know Sean was working on a kit so that would be the best bet to getting a kit and some technical support to help you out. I wish it was as easy as buying a kit but then again it makes it even more interesting cause nobody will have the same setup in an accord unless Sean puts out a kit.

[od2681]

tune this motor...NA power.haha

[deadlight]

Originally posted by toastyghost
A lot of people don't know what the fuck they're doing. More air requires more fuel.
No shit man, it's like everybody thinks you just slap it together and it's done, you need to upgrade your fuel system and things like that, stock fuel management in a naturally aspirated car is usually not the answer, turbos are actually quite nice, especially to repair, crack it open, pull out the fins, bearing, replace. simple.

[zero.counter]

Originally posted by Sean
got news for you. the swap in motors are far less reliable then the one youd be taking out.also do you consider 10psi low boost ?
I didn't catch this post.

There is no news for me to have. I consider 8 PSI low boost because that is what I used to run my old S13 SR to get good mileage and less engine wear and good enough performance, stock internals that is. I could have run higher on KAs, I don't recommend that you run a boost higher than 6 PSI on stock internals due to inevitable engine failure. So my point is, yes you can swap a motor which proves to be reliable in which would (or had) been better than the one already sitting in the engine bay.

About the reliability aspect of my comment, it can be stemmed from what you said or again running a high boost with stock parts, causing a significant decrease in such. DSMs come to mind when I say that since they are notorious for requiring rebuilds due to reliability issues. The same goes for RX-7s with their constant rebuilding of the rotaries due to overheating, the placement of the turbos on the last generation and the constant tuning regarding effective cooling. Quick and unreliable wear.

The point is, forced induction has and will cause premature wear on any engine, unless you have some $6k internals from Toda Racing or something. If he just sticks with a stock engine and nurtures it, it will prove to be very reliable and get him where he wants to go.

[zero.counter]

;)

[zero.counter]

Originally posted by Sean
in fact gm put a piece of code in the controller im using for the ecm kits that figures out what grade of gas is in the car and retards spark to prevent knock.
Yeah, its referred to as a knock sensor in most cars that have one.

Also, I found a really nice article about the Gas Grades.
Here (http://www.theolympian.com/home/news/20030905/business/92744.shtml)

Just to give you some insight.

[Cyric_accord]

Originally posted by zero.counter
About the reliability aspect of my comment, it can be stemmed from what you said or again running a high boost with stock parts, causing a significant decrease in such. DSMs come to mind when I say that since they are notorious for requiring rebuilds due to reliability issues. The same goes for RX-7s with their constant rebuilding of the rotaries due to overheating, the placement of the turbos on the last generation and the constant tuning regarding effective cooling. Quick and unreliable wear.


Well, it doesn't help on the RX-7 that the 12A and 13B engines go thru oil like a btch and the Apex seals go to shit really fast, usually have to replace them within 50k miles each time. The Twin Ts on the 3rd Gen 7s just wear on the seals even worse.

[Sean]

Originally posted by zero.counter
I didn't catch this post.

There is no news for me to have. I consider 8 PSI low boost because that is what I used to run my old S13 SR to get good mileage and less engine wear and good enough performance, stock internals that is. I could have run higher on KAs, I don't recommend that you run a boost higher than 6 PSI on stock internals due to inevitable engine failure. So my point is, yes you can swap a motor which proves to be reliable in which would (or had) been better than the one already sitting in the engine bay.


Please define a better engine ? one with vtec ?perhaps forged pistons ? ppplllleeeaaassseeee help this child. example. chrysler t2 motors came factory with 12 psi of boost and cast pistons. yes cast pistons. the reliability issues come down to 2 major compnenets. cylinder combustion temps ( read not EGT ) timing and fuel. with the triad of things done correctly the engine can live a very long and happy life with forced induction.



Originally posted by zero.counter

About the reliability aspect of my comment, it can be stemmed from what you said or again running a high boost with stock parts, causing a significant decrease in such. DSMs come to mind when I say that since they are notorious for requiring rebuilds due to reliability issues. The same goes for RX-7s with their constant rebuilding of the rotaries due to overheating, the placement of the turbos on the last generation and the constant tuning regarding effective cooling. Quick and unreliable wear.


alot of DSM engine fail not becuase there weak engine. most fail due to neglect over heating and lots of spark knock. also running out of fuel dont help either. lean a turbo engine out and kabooom. having worked in a machine shop for a while that specialized in import engine. i can assure you 90% of the failrure didnt come from to much boost. mostly to little fuel and knock from incorrectly managaing the timing. RX7's heat doenst ruin the apex seals. knock sure will though.






Originally posted by zero.counter

The point is, forced induction has and will cause premature wear on any engine, unless you have some $6k internals from Toda Racing or something. If he just sticks with a stock engine and nurtures it, it will prove to be very reliable and get him where he wants to go.

for the last comment im gonna fill you in on something. the engine in my car use to consume about one quart of oil every oil change. now with the turbo on the car is consume about 1/4 of a quart every oil change. the reason for this is becuase the engine no longer has to work so hard on the highway to maintian speed. its also been pretty effective at blowing the shit out of the motor.
this is normal however for a turbo engine.

in short your beliving myths not that facts. the short story is people beat the living dogshit out of there motors. then blame the turbo. its not the turbos fualt.

[Sean]

Originally posted by zero.counter
Yeah, its referred to as a knock sensor in most cars that have one.

Also, I found a really nice article about the Gas Grades.
Here (http://www.theolympian.com/home/news/20030905/business/92744.shtml)

Just to give you some insight.

im pretty sure i have alot mroe understanding of what a knock sensor is and how it works then you are giving me credit for. i was simply making a statement about the fact that the ECM will test for gasoline grades to prevent kncok.

[zero.counter]

HaHA, I like how you referred to me as kid.
I thought that you were supposed to be setting an example for fellow posters, since you are a moderator and all.
I know that you got that position based on merit and overall knowledge of a specific subject. But you must learn that we do not always agree with each other and that is part of life.
Look, I know that you have a reputation to keep around here and such as the "Turbo Guru", but I don't share your opinions because I have done otherwise in my time. Unless you can disprove my previous experiences with building cars that is, if so...then may I call you god?

Anyways, better engine, an SR20DET or even a KA24DE. I have purchased both used in the past, and had great success running with/without turbos. Maybe you misunderstood my original post. I insinuated that some may have problems with either reliability and/or speed. I never said me, so don't try swaying me. Great to see that you share my thoughts on internals and their respective position in the reliability aspect of it. Right there, I know that you have knowledge of the concepts behind forced induction and such.

I never went into great detail about the DSMs, and I surely never said WEAK, I did however say that they do not wear gracefully when turbo'd. That again is with personal experience. I am not worried about the, "He said, she said" crap on the internet and hear say. I post out of true and complete personal background. If you saw that problem with so many customers running lean, then maybe you should have suggested a better management system such as a piggy back unit or re-programmed ECU as opposed to an S-AFC, ball valve boost controller or a cheap boost timer/controller and sorts. I don't see that problem very often, it is mostly due to redlining hard asses that have much to prove and love making me money.:lol
As for the RX-7s ( 3rd gen), I was referring to the poor stock performance of the cooling system, usually alleviated by adding a Mazda Competition aluminum radiator, which increases the allowable surface area for cooling over the stock unit. With some of the TTs, the heat was trapped inside of the engine bay due to their placement. So we would custom fabricate a nice little air dam from the driver's side wheel well to accomodate.

I am glad that your engine uses very little oil. So do mine, even though my last KA24DET had over 141,000 Miles on it. Even at 8psi, my oil would not burn until around 2k Miles. I don't think that everyone here has the time or money to boost a grocery hauler to warp speed. I am giving the original poster a realistic view in to what he would be getting into. Reliability and longevity are the selling points of the hondas, especially our trust accords.

If you feel threatened by my "scurrying into your territory", then I will no longer post on this thread. But I must again reiterate my point, I have experience as well, and disagree with you. I don't understand why you can't just take it for face value. Everything I have said has merit and is what it is, regardless of your comebacks and attempts to make me look like foolish and uneducated.

BTW, I have saved this post just in case and don't tune to race 1/4 mile speeds for bragging, I do it for fun! :D
Also, please not that I am generic in most of my points and you can figure the scope (or some of it) my knowledge and whether I am ignorant by viewing my previous posts.

[Sean]

Originally posted by zero.counter
HaHA, I like how you referred to me as kid.
I thought that you were supposed to be setting an example for fellow posters, since you are a moderator and all.
I know that you got that position based on merit and overall knowledge of a specific subject. But you must learn that we do not always agree with each other and that is part of life.
Look, I know that you have a reputation to keep around here and such as the "Turbo Guru", but I don't share your opinions because I have done otherwise in my time. Unless you can disprove my previous experiences with building cars that is, if so...then may I call you god?

Anyways, better engine, an SR20DET or even a KA24DE. I have purchased both used in the past, and had great success running with/without turbos. Maybe you misunderstood my original post. I insinuated that some may have problems with either reliability and/or speed. I never said me, so don't try swaying me. Great to see that you share my thoughts on internals and their respective position in the reliability aspect of it. Right there, I know that you have knowledge of the concepts behind forced induction and such.

I never went into great detail about the DSMs, and I surely never said WEAK, I did however say that they do not wear gracefully when turbo'd. That again is with personal experience. I am not worried about the, "He said, she said" crap on the internet and hear say. I post out of true and complete personal background. If you saw that problem with so many customers running lean, then maybe you should have suggested a better management system such as a piggy back unit or re-programmed ECU as opposed to an S-AFC, ball valve boost controller or a cheap boost timer/controller and sorts. I don't see that problem very often, it is mostly due to redlining hard asses that have much to prove and love making me money.:lol
As for the RX-7s ( 3rd gen), I was referring to the poor stock performance of the cooling system, usually alleviated by adding a Mazda Competition aluminum radiator, which increases the allowable surface area for cooling over the stock unit. With some of the TTs, the heat was trapped inside of the engine bay due to their placement. So we would custom fabricate a nice little air dam from the driver's side wheel well to accomodate.

I am glad that your engine uses very little oil. So do mine, even though my last KA24DET had over 141,000 Miles on it. Even at 8psi, my oil would not burn until around 2k Miles. I don't think that everyone here has the time or money to boost a grocery hauler to warp speed. I am giving the original poster a realistic view in to what he would be getting into. Reliability and longevity are the selling points of the hondas, especially our trust accords.

If you feel threatened by my "scurrying into your territory", then I will no longer post on this thread. But I must again reiterate my point, I have experience as well, and disagree with you. I don't understand why you can't just take it for face value. Everything I have said has merit and is what it is, regardless of your comebacks and attempts to make me look like foolish and uneducated.

BTW, I have saved this post just in case and don't tune to race 1/4 mile speeds for bragging, I do it for fun! :D
Also, please not that I am generic in most of my points and you can figure the scope (or some of it) my knowledge and whether I am ignorant by viewing my previous posts.

i think the bigger point in who might know more is simply made by who's engine is still alive. im knocking on low 14's. clutch and traction issues asidie im sure with 12 psi of boost and traction i could make it into the low 13's with ease and still retian the stock motor. all of this mind you without a big intercooler or tight mad APEX'i boost controller.

secondly i do not have to go around bragging what i know. i earned it the hard way. worked at machine shops, built racing v8's, raced an a20a N/a before you were even on 3g's. Ive had owned and playd with lots of hi po cars. most of them being domestics. ive owned my share of turbo cars. DSM,dodge lancer,turbo 3g, saab, and a vovlvo wagon. also ive got a pretty impressive list of cars ive tunned helped build and developed.

im getting sick of people like you running around screaming how the a20a cant make power or how it wont live. im calling BS. im running faster then most turbo ls crx's and ive still got a full interior.

until you have a 3g running boost anywhere near 14 in the 1/4 dont come around here and disrespect me or anybody else.

you got corrected and you wanna call foul.

[zero.counter]

Originally posted by Sean
i think the bigger point in who might know more is simply made by who's engine is still alive. im knocking on low 14's. clutch and traction issues asidie im sure with 12 psi of boost and traction i could make it into the low 13's with ease and still retian the stock motor. all of this mind you without a big intercooler or tight mad APEX'i boost controller.

secondly i do not have to go around bragging what i know. i earned it the hard way. worked at machine shops, built racing v8's, raced an a20a N/a before you were even on 3g's. Ive had owned and playd with lots of hi po cars. most of them being domestics. ive owned my share of turbo cars. DSM,dodge lancer,turbo 3g, saab, and a vovlvo wagon. also ive got a pretty impressive list of cars ive tunned helped build and developed.

im getting sick of people like you running around screaming how the a20a cant make power or how it wont live. im calling BS. im running faster then most turbo ls crx's and ive still got a full interior.

until you have a 3g running boost anywhere near 14 in the 1/4 dont come around here and disrespect me or anybody else.

you got corrected and you wanna call foul.
First of all, I never put down the A20A1. If so, then show me where. You can call BS all day. I don't care. Who are you anyways, what? Sean of 3Geez? :lol

I am happy that you run fast and whatever, have a great time doing so. Again, you still don't have anything on me or my experience and are getting mad because I challenged you? WTF?? I love this board! You disrespected me by telling me that I did not know what I was talking about and got mad when I made it a comeback. Don't call it a comeback, i've been here for years.

Don't be scrrr'd. It's all good in da hood vato! ;)

Unless you have anything on me, I will continue posting and loving it. Don't call BS on someone unless you know for sure, otherwise it tends to show an ignorant streak in one's character.

BTW, again I will say this, I never said that my engines were blown, just giving the newbie a bit of info on his quest for power. If so, then show me where.

C'YA :rolleyes:

[zero.counter]

PEACE OUT

[Sean]

Originally posted by zero.counter
First of all, I never put down the A20A1. If so, then show me where. You can call BS all day. I don't care. Who are you anyways, what? Sean of 3Geez? :lol

actually i have a day job and a tunning cunsulting firm. im not gonna dive into what you might think you know. while people like your selves run around blabing about tunnign shops ive been getting recurtied by one of the big 3 as a development engineer.
you also just told this guy that he couldnt run boost on his motor cuase it would break. id say that you were making an overstatmen.

I

Originally posted by zero.counter
am happy that you run fast and whatever, have a great time doing so. Again, you still don't have anything on me or my experience and are getting mad because I challenged you? WTF?? I love this board! You disrespected me by telling me that I did not know what I was talking about and got mad when I made it a comeback. Don't call it a comeback, i've been here for years.


your experience. what is that expericne exactly ? care to post a resume of your personal acheivments. in making an 18 second car run 14's with a stock motor ?you chalenged what ? i dont even consider you a challegen. my 3g is just a dial driven toy. those who know me persoanlly know that the really bad ass car sit in the agarage. but then its only a domestic POS 69 charger with an almost finished c5 corevette IRS with a c4 diff and c5 front suspension. thats just the begining of that project. i dunno the twin t76 turbos and 500 inch 400 B motor with EFI and DIS should make for roughly 1100 flywheel HP. still trying to find a trans for that. add in that fact that im totally rebuilding the unidbody due to rust and strengthing it while tying the new IRS and front suspension together. still have to find funds to finish the interior. gonna go 21st century in there Tv's stereo etc. this is to be the baddest ass pro touring street rod built to date but maybe in a yr or 2 ill get it finished. oh and being here for yrs. ive been around since 3g's began basically. i joined 2 months after the board went up at Autoforums.com. but Whoa thats like what 1999 ? maybe i was offered a mod position a long time ago but kept declining. becuase i have a bad habit of standing up to whiny talk alots




Originally posted by zero.counter

Don't be scrrr'd. It's all good in da hood vato! ;)

who siad anything about being scard. it would be nice if you could actually add something to this other then the constant jabber of your jaw. acomplish something for the community


Originally posted by zero.counter

Unless you have anything on me, I will continue posting and loving it. Don't call BS on someone unless you know for sure, otherwise it tends to show an ignorant streak in one's character.
the only ignoratn streak i see is yours. im so impressed that you managed to figure out that overevving DSM break thet timming belt. never mind all the melted pistons and crack pistons ive pulled from motors after ive repeatadly told people to buy accel DFI or some other stand alone to help. Whats with you piggy back users anyways ? most piggys backs are the most half assed stuff around.


Originally posted by zero.counter

BTW, again I will say this, I never said that my engines were blown, just giving the newbie a bit of info on his quest for power. If so, then show me where.

you didnt have to say they were blown merly as much as you infered you had a reliabilty issue. maybe if you knew how to read plugs for signs of knock becuase quiet ofetn its the knock you dont here that does the damage. probably pretty hard with that 4 inch exhuast though.

Originally posted by zero.counter


C'YA :rolleyes:

hahahahaha :flipa:

[zero.counter]

I tell you what, get a money order for $45 and give me your physical address, I will send you a return receipt envelope with paid shipping back to me, and I will send you all of the credentials you need.

I did the same for someone else here on the board and he declined. The reason for the fee is for prep and shipping of the required docs and and an affadavit that you have read and understand what is presented. My time is worth a lot to me, so that is the only way you will get anything because you are a mechanic :rolleyes: . What you spend your life doing and learning, I do as a freaking hobby. ;)

Mechanics seem to be a dime a dozen around here and are usually distrusted and very shady unless it is a dealership who then is overpriced.

Otherwise, who gives a shit what you think Sean of 3Geez! :flip:

Consider my offer, if not then just stop bugging me...:super:

[zero.counter]

Besides, I love my anonymity. I just try to be helpful and retaliate when someone calls BS on me. You are not my friend or acquantance, so why should I offer any of my personal info for free?

I post info and that is that. I apologize if you hate me so, there is nothing I can do. I know that Jim and Mike (A20A1) are humble guys and it shows their age. Very intelligent fellas, you might want to follow in their footsteps. I think that you would become a better person overall.

I am done littering this thread, if you want to ban me or cut me down more, then feel free to but by PM at least. Have some decency man!

[Sean]

Originally posted by zero.counter
I tell you what, get a money order for $45 and give me your physical address, I will send you a return receipt envelope with paid shipping back to me, and I will send you all of the credentials you need.

$45 dollars. for a resume ? are you on crack. just scan and post that shit here. i know plenty of industry people i can call to confirm what ever shit you care to post. fuck if i wasnt in such a sticky situation with my soon to be employer i would go ahead and post who exactly im gonna be working for and exactly what programs im gonna be on.



Originally posted by zero.counter

I did the same for someone else here on the board and he declined. The reason for the fee is for prep and shipping of the required docs and and an affadavit that you have read and understand what is presented. My time is worth a lot to me, so that is the only way you will get anything because you are a mechanic :rolleyes: . What you spend your life doing and learning, I do as a freaking hobby. ;) .


Now thats hilarious. i dont care what you do for a hobby. i think that would lend you less crediabilty. i also will not pay for your lack of ability yo master the UPS box and $15.00 flat shipping rate upto 50lbs. via ground. Im still not impressed your still all blab and no action. show me what youve got ? im gonna be posting me dyno sheets. but as i siad. my accord is my dialy driven toy.


Originally posted by zero.counter
Mechanics seem to be a dime a dozen around here and are usually distrusted and very shady unless it is a dealership who then is overpriced..

Not my fualt you live around sleeze bags. maybe you feel more at home living around BSer's who do nothing but talk.


Originally posted by zero.counter


Otherwise, who gives a shit what you think Sean of 3Geez! :flip: :

Who cares wether or not you care. but if you have nothing useful to contribute then basically my feeling is fuck off.


Originally posted by zero.counter

Consider my offer, if not then just stop bugging me...:super:

Im not the one who trounced into this thread talking all kinds of shit. your the only person hear being a bother. i corrected you about the a20's durability. you didnt like that then you proceeded to try and discredit my work. basically my feeling is your a blow hard shit talker. im tired of poepl like you. :rice: look youve got a 240sx Slow ass car. even with a siliva engine. still a slow ass car. and a 88 something or other. who cares. if you have nothing to add other then the typically B16 chant go away. its the attitude you have that has created this aftermarket void for 3g's. you act like im actually going to make money off the stuff i sell here. what a bunch of BS.

get over your self.

[zero.counter]

Originally posted by Sean
$45 dollars. for a resume ? are you on crack. just scan and post that shit here. i know plenty of industry people i can call to confirm what ever shit you care to post. fuck if i wasnt in such a sticky situation with my soon to be employer i would go ahead and post who exactly im gonna be working for and exactly what programs im gonna be on.





Now thats hilarious. i dont care what you do for a hobby. i think that would lend you less crediabilty. i also will not pay for your lack of ability yo master the UPS box and $15.00 flat shipping rate upto 50lbs. via ground. Im still not impressed your still all blab and no action. show me what youve got ? im gonna be posting me dyno sheets. but as i siad. my accord is my dialy driven toy.



Not my fualt you live around sleeze bags. maybe you feel more at home living around BSer's who do nothing but talk.



Who cares wether or not you care. but if you have nothing useful to contribute then basically my feeling is fuck off.



Im not the one who trounced into this thread talking all kinds of shit. your the only person hear being a bother. i corrected you about the a20's durability. you didnt like that then you proceeded to try and discredit my work. basically my feeling is your a blow hard shit talker. im tired of poepl like you. :rice: look youve got a 240sx Slow ass car. even with a siliva engine. still a slow ass car. and a 88 something or other. who cares. if you have nothing to add other then the typically B16 chant go away. its the attitude you have that has created this aftermarket void for 3g's. you act like im actually going to make money off the stuff i sell here. what a bunch of BS.

get over your self. :lol
Sean of 3Geez, you are supposed to be a moderator. You are breaking the rules of the forum that you swore to protect such as a crooked cop breaks the law, oh well... shame on you.

P.S. Hi, I am Zero.Counter, I am a pathological liar. I have nothing better to do with my time than bullshit people about fixing cars and what I have. All of my posts are fictional and have no value. I am going to hell and will burn for eternity. I don't even know how to put gas in my cars. What is an engine? I don't know. Blah blah blah blaaah blah. (Charlie brown reference)

I am nothing but B.S. and waste my time telling people lies about everything. I AM A BAD PERSON
:crying:

This is fun, keep it up! :super:
If it helps you any, my poor feelings are hurt, me sad...:sadwave:

Goodbye cruel world.

[deadlight]

And then Zero shot himself...j/k man, how about this, you have 30,000 miles on your 180k mile or whatever DX right? That tells me you recently swapped engines, so you should throw out the whole swap idea to begin with. Everyone talks about B16 swaps here. How many people actually have one? I know of one guy, oldschoolswap. B20's are more common, but we're running on the assumption you have a new motor anyways...ready to mod. If you're like most of us here, you're strapped on cash, while I would kill for Sean's turbo kit, I just don't have the money. Now, your A20 motor is fine for power, which is why I don't get people's fixation with swaps unless they have money and want to run 12s. Try this: Cams, exhaust, weber carb, port polish head...You can get the last part cheap, just look around. Sorry but I thought I'd actually answer this kid's turbo vs. swap question.

[deadlight]

Alright, I'm going to correct myself before somebody else does. I did find a couple people just now with B18's also, but still, it's not a cheap route.

[Sean]

well to get back on topic im thinking i might build a dyno mule to beat the living hell out of to see exactly what it take to break a a20 block. crank rods etc. if the 200whp i have now isnt then i wouldnt sweet it alot. but the swaps wont offer the TQ of the turbo nor its easy drive manners. the only pinch ive seen so far is the clutch. traction can be fixed with better tires. ive had my hands ona few b series flywheels and they should fit although the starter looks to be a issue to be dealt with. im gonna scare up some parts and see what i can make happen with the cltuch thing.

but yet again dollar for dollar. turbo beats a swap hands down. and to be honest the a20a is on par or better then the b16,17,18 motors when turboed. its makes mroe low end grunt which in the world of street driving makes it alot faster.

[deadlight]

Turbo would definitely be the way to go if you were going to go that route, better reliability in my opinion than putting an engine in that shouldn't be there. I support turbos fully, and Seans kit costs much less than a swap would from the sounds of it, I don't know what all these guys with B18's are running in the quarter, but I bet Sean has them beat, for what, half the price almost? And one very good point, low end torque will be much better for racing, and I can name one good point when it comes to Hondas, I see alot of VTEC Civics/Tegs, having to launch at 4k plus, because their engine is literally gutless below the VTEC switchover at 4500-5000 or wherever, therefore, you cause premature wear and tear on your drivetrain, I don't care what tranny you put in, it won't like 5000 rpm launches. And you don't want to be blowing trannys when you had it all custom made to fit.

[IWLSF]

With all this 'big dick slinging' aside, point is, you cant say anything on the reliability of the A20 with boost just yet. And you really have no room to argue with what I'm getting ready to say because...there simply isnt anything to argue with. Put 100,000 miles on the motor, and then come back here and talk about the reliability, but until then, it's just another myth, regardless of every shred of 'proof' brought to the table.

Another thing, how is it you're faster than a turbo LS CRX? You've got a motor that makes 20 more hp stock and 20 more lbs-ft tq stock over a A20. Throw a turbo on both of the motors, then put the LS into a lighter chassis than a 3G, and you're faster? That makes absolutely no sense at all. The bigger badder motor in a lighter car is slower? Hmm, unless they dont get traction or dont know how to drive, there should be no comparison.

[Sean]

Originally posted by IWLSF
With all this 'big dick slinging' aside, point is, you cant say anything on the reliability of the A20 with boost just yet. And you really have no room to argue with what I'm getting ready to say because...there simply isnt anything to argue with. Put 100,000 miles on the motor, and then come back here and talk about the reliability, but until then, it's just another myth, regardless of every shred of 'proof' brought to the table.

most guys that have tried this broke there motors by 8 psi. im running 10 psi now and i plan to run 15 psi by the end of the summer. ive put 15k on this motor with boost and i aint no pusy foot thats for sure.



Originally posted by IWLSF

Another thing, how is it you're faster than a turbo LS CRX? You've got a motor that makes 20 more hp stock and 20 more lbs-ft tq stock over a A20. Throw a turbo on both of the motors, then put the LS into a lighter chassis than a 3G, and you're faster? That makes absolutely no sense at all. The bigger badder motor in a lighter car is slower? Hmm, unless they dont get traction or dont know how to drive, there should be no comparison.

i dont know why its this fast other then the fact that once you strap a turbo on a motor you kill its VE potential in non boost. in fact it takes 3-4 psi just to make 120hp once the turbo is bolted on. its not exactly a free lunch. the other parts is tunning. to much spark no enough fuel etc will make a car run slow.

There are some other factors. Stroke. the a20 has a longer stroke which helps it make alot mroe low end Tq. low end TQ makes the car faster. the ls vtec is a dog until is get into Vtec and even then geuss what ts still a dog. it inly make like 120ft lb. the a20 make like closer to 140ft lb.ive got dyno pulls where at 10psi this car has made over 200ft of Tq at 3000rpm. and with a good set of injectors i might just see the 275+ ive been looking for at 4500rpm.

the ls motor in the teg barely has any Tq on the a20a actually it doesnt have any at all. the b16 is a gutless engine and the turbo kills the vtecs extra airflow. so everything being equal the large stronger a20a will outpower those engines hands down with the same amoutn of boost with identical turbos. now if we start playng with a/r housings and trade spool up and decres exhuast restrction there gonna be a shift in the power curve. but then your killing off the low end power that makes the car such a weapon on the street.

its all about big engines. turbos and displacement are the best things you can do. head flow vtec etc doesnt make a difference once you have the ehxuats restrictions.

[Justin86]

Unless you want to make insane power I would stick with the A20 turbo. Yes having a turbo creates more wear on an engine but that is a side effect have having more power. Still I would go with the Sean's turbo hand down.

[Sean]

thats the thing the turbo adds little to no wear. as stated ive owned a few turbo dodges that were driven hard. all lasted to at least 150k with an inferior engine.revving an engine to 8000rpm is 10x more dammaging then fedding it 20psi of boost at 6000rpm. do some reading on inertial and tensile rod loading. plus theres no ring flutter on a turbo engine when its in boost so that saves tons of wear. if turbos wore out engine then explian tractor trailer engine lasting 1,000,000 miles making 1800ft of tq at 40psi.