B20a fuel rail, injectors, and more

[Versanick]

Beyond the factory b20a fuel rail, I am lost for what to use. My instinct tells me that anything that will fit the a20a will fit the b20a, since the intake bolts right on. Is this right or wrong?

I've also seen people on this board with a20's use h22a1 injectors (which some places I read is 310cc, some 270cc which is wrong, and from ACCEL they list the factory one to be 345cc).

In either of those cases, I'm looking at those injectors. They can be found remanufactured for $50 apiece shipped. I was also making an assumption that the fuel rail from the h22a1 will go along with the injectors...

I can't imagine I'm that far off. What boggles me is that, if this is true, than an aftermarket h22a1 fuel rail will work with the h22a1 injectors....

The problem comes when looking up aftermarket injectors, and them having different part #'s for different b-motors (94- teg, 92-95 civic, then a diff. one for f seris, then different for h series, then different for older b series in crx's...)

Why are all the fuel rails different part #'s etc. Spacing and length?

Do one of the h22 injector wires have to be extended?

Thanks dudes,
paul

[toastyghost]

Personally I think the best way to go would be redrill an ITR performance manifold flange so it will fit the B20A head, and then use easy bolt on aftermarket parts.

[RobT5580]

Justin made an adaptor plate a long time ago to mount a Vortec fuel rail up to the A20A3 intake manifold. I picked one up awhile back and thats what im gonna use unless i change manifolds sometime but dont want to with all the vacuum line crap.

[Justin86]

Originally posted by toastyghost
Personally I think the best way to go would be redrill an ITR performance manifold flange so it will fit the B20A head, and then use easy bolt on aftermarket parts.
Yea Openloop did that. I can't reamember if they used a B16a or B18C intake manifold. If you are serious about building up the B20 I would go this route.

[Versanick]

I will contact the openloop dude, and ask them what's up.

The b16a mani isn't that much different bolt-wise from the b18c mani... either way at least 4 holes have to be drilled for it. My head's already ported, so I probably wouldn't have to do TOO much to port match the intake with it.

Either way, the 86 intake w/single butterfly setup isn't the best. Would I have to use different injectors and fuel rail if I upgraded my intake later?

I was looking to first use my 86 a20 intake (which is on there now) and use h22a1 injectors and fuel rail. And a bigger fuel pump.

Can I do that, or do I have to buy different aftermarket injectors?

[Justin86]

Well going with the B-series manifold can be a lot better but also pretty spendy depending on what parts you get with it. If you don't get one at least go with an 88-89 accord manifold. I'm working on getting one off an 89 Se-i and the rear disc brakes.

[Versanick]

Thanks for the tip, Justin. I've moved what I wrote next to the Technical EFI forum because it started to be more about the technical and mathematical aspects of fuel injection than the questions I originally asked. You dudes can continue to follow it there if it suits your fancy, I just decided to also post the link to it here, for reference.

Thanks for your input, guys.
you're awesome.

http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24711

[Justin86]

Also with the 88-89 accord manifold you can do some stuff to it to make it better. 1988Starter pretty much has a how-to on closing the secondary butterfly valves. This would help improve the tq.

[toastyghost]

Originally posted by Justin86
Yea Openloop did that. I can't reamember if they used a B16a or B18C intake manifold.
I'm pretty sure the manny was off a B16A.

[Justin86]

Originally posted by toastyghost
I'm pretty sure the manny was off a B16A.
Yea I checked and it was the B16a, but you could also do a B18C. The B16a will be cheaper though.

[toastyghost]

True, B16A one is much cheaper but the shorty style one outperforms it. I don't know the spec but the teg and CTR have much shorter tubes which means less space to travel between injection and combusion chamber.

[mykwikcoupe]

doesnt that also mean less time to thourlyatomize fuel and air mixture also, having a shorteeer one that is

[toastyghost]

That hadn't occurred to me and it's a good possibility. I know that overall it's not a huge difference but the shorter pipes do help.

[Versanick]

Most of the atomization at higher RPM makes its greatest stride in the head. My head is super-polished, so I have excellent flow but very little extra atomization. I've never thought of the idea of atomizing in the intake... I would assume a good place would be where the intake meets the head, to take some sandpaper or a tool to make it a bit rougher, more and more as the head gets closer to the cylinder.

I believe that atomization must occurr, as I said, in the head, or closer to its destination for ignition. If you atomize it a little pretty far back, it may put itself back into a straight flow before it gets into the cylinder if the head is polished really smoothly.

If the head is cross-hatch patterened for atomization, and your intake is equally rough at the surface, I'd imagine that there'd be a lot of atomization. I don't also imagine that you'd have a flow problem if the head or intake was ported anyway. The flow would likely be about the same, but much better atomization. Great especially for lower-RPM travel... I don't know how it flies up high.

Back to my post from the technical boards, that should have been here (since people read this.

I'll probably wind up with an 88-89 manifold and get it ported out where it meets the head, to some extent.

It's my understanding of injectors that most Honda injectors, as long as they're peak-and-hold style, will fit and work. My question is more related to the fuel rail, but I can actually assume that that will be the same too. I suppose the whole thread was in regards to it, and I wound up logically answering my own inquiry.

I suppose that I'd like to throw it in the direction of performance fuel injection upgrading without breaking the bank.

My direction, again, was a h22a1 fuel rail and fuel injector setup. If my source is correct, these injectors are much more free-flowing than most other Honda injectors (most are in the neighborhood of 240cc/min, like the factory b20a injectors)...

The h22a1's are said to be 345cc/min (huge for honda motors around its size/power, but makes sense in the horsepower formula for injectors).

(injector size) x (.8 duty cycle)
-------------------------------------
(.50 brake specific fuel consumption, slightly higher w/forced induction)

(multiply formula times four, for 4 injectors)

If you input a 240cc injector, 80% duty cycle (.8), and .5 (assuming an average naturally-aspirated motor), times 4 injectors

You can reach an average rich-running horsepower rating. For the factory b20a injectors, this winds up being 145.5hp, with the fuel pressure at the rail being 43.5 psi.

By getting a bigger fuel pump, or fuel pressure riser, you can move your fuel pressure to 50 psi, and make 157 rich-running hp. You're still running relatively lean with the 160hp b20a.

Thus the problem. Now let's put 270cc injectors in. We can now have 163.5 rich-running bhp at the fly without changing the fuel pressure.

Now we encounter another problem. The 270cc injectors will probably run you over $300 new from RC. Since you didn't increase your pressure any, but released some more by increasing cc/min, your peak torque may drop its occurrence in RPM (even if it's higher), and you won't be able to make much of any power past the factory redline.

Now you're in my shoes.
Ported head, bullfrog cams, 3-angle valve job, header to muffler exhaust, AEM external intake... and a factory 86 intake restricting air flow.

Definitely way more than 160hp, with 240cc injectors. And restrictive intake. Running lean? Definitely. What's the problem? The intake is quite restrictive to be running lean. Not that running lean is good.

The intake needs to be replaced to free up air flow (as well as porting or at least cleaning the throttle body), and WAY bigger injectors need apply.

If h22a1 injectors are only 310cc (which I've read somewhere less reliable), I could raise my fuel pressure (to let's say 55 psig at the rail), and now the formula shows that 365cc/min injectors will run me plenty rich. If my brake specific is less than .5 (which it very well may be), 335-350cc/min injectors would be perfect.

That brings me to the other source, ACCEL's web site, which says that the h22a1 (and none of the other h-series motors) use injectors that flow 345cc/min. This will help accounting for the fact that it has a lot more power than the h-series motors around it, without changing much else about the motor.

This would make 93-96 Prelude Si VTEC injectors optimal for my setup, and definitely an excellent option for anyone else with an a20/b20 who wants to run a bit richer.

Looking to use a small amount of nitrous (25-shot) later on, I might want to be running a little rich myself. Taking all into account, I could very well be doing that after raising the pressure and using h22 injectors, as long as they fit.

Does anyone think I'm absolutely insane and out of my gord, or am I being somewhat reasonable?

I love my car and want to do what's right. Will the h22 stuff fit on an 88-89 intake or am I smoking crack?

haha
thanks
paul

[Versanick]

One other totally random thing. I'd like to see how stock 86-89 b16 integra cams run in my car. Right now I'm getting about 5 miles per gallon. I'm looking for something I can put in for my day-to-day action and then use my crazy bullfrog cams for the weekend.

I can get 8mpg per highway... but we couldn't really figure out where the vacuum lines go afterward, so we took most of em off. The car seems to move just as well and run fine. Just now there's plumes of black smoke and rich as HELL smelling exhaust coming out. Huge black smoke clouds whenever I shift or rev it. The mileage dropped down to 1/6 of its original though. hmm....

ugh. will the b16 86-89 integra cams work (I know they'd be way more mild than even the stock b20a, but I need something even more mild to see how it goes).

Would they fit in the car and allow it to run, even if it restricted me to 100hp (I don't care).

I just want to know if they'd fit in, and if the car would successfully turn on without blowing up. I really don't see why not, but I don't know if the lobes are in different places or if they have different sizes or whatever.

I think all the non-vtec b-series cams are the same (size-wise, not necessarily lift/duration etc)...

am I wrong there too? And/or about my other stuff?

anyone?

[Justin86]

Originally posted by toastyghost
True, B16A one is much cheaper but the shorty style one outperforms it. I don't know the spec but the teg and CTR have much shorter tubes which means less space to travel between injection and combusion chamber.
Well with shorter runners it helps to put out more hp but then you loose a little on the tq.

[b20aTURBO]

Originally posted by Versanick
[
I can get 8mpg per highway... but we couldn't really figure out where the vacuum lines go afterward, so we took most of em off. The car seems to move just as well and run fine. Just now there's plumes of black smoke and rich as HELL smelling exhaust coming out. Huge black smoke clouds whenever I shift or rev it. The mileage dropped down to 1/6 of its original though. hmm....


I just want to know if they'd fit in, and if the car would successfully turn on without blowing up. I really don't see why not, but I don't know if the lobes are in different places or if they have different sizes or whatever.

I think all the non-vtec b-series cams are the same (size-wise, not necessarily lift/duration etc)...

am I wrong there too? And/or about my other stuff?



WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING TO MY POOR CAR!!!!!
[/B] :wtf: :

[Versanick]

LoL your car's fine

I just wanted to try more mild cams to see how it would run. Just by chance. Since i don't have bigger injectors to feed the cams.

It's running much better now though. I got all of the vacuum lines back on and I'm getting 25mpg again.

We have the intake set at 8 adv (so 16 degrees, because on the cam gear it says each mark is 2 degrees) and the exhaust is 1 adv (so 2 I believe)....

We tried about 10 configurations, and ran the car starting in second gear against my friend's b16a hatch, and this one keeps even with him at the top of the power band (finally). The way it was when I got the car (exhaust fully adv, intake retarded 1 or 2) was good for very high top end, and maybe had a bit higher peak torque, but the car was unloading with that, and the valves were set way too loose (as they have to be to see the power up there). We called Gude and they reccomended .008 and .006 for the valves, and they were set at around .020 or .025 (approx.) at the exhaust side, and almost as loose on the intake side.

With this config, we're seeing over 100 ft-lb of torque at just over 2000 rpm (beat that in your average Honda), and the tires break free at about 4500 in first gear if the road isn't straight and 100% dust-free. The power lasts straight through 6500 or so.

The fuel pressure needs to be a little bit higher, and this configuration will be perfect.

That Stillen fuel riser might be the right choice, but I just spent a total of $700 getting the motor apart, the gaskets replaced, and put back together the past two weeks, and this week, getting a new CV boot kit (for front left axle), mud flap for the front right, a fuel filter, new NGK plugs (to match the NGK wires), and a few feet of vacuum hose.

Before the vacuum lines went back in, I spent a total of $105 on gasoline in 6 days. That's driving school - home - work, and NOTHING extra. DAMN I need a different intake. The 88-89 we were trying to pull broke at the thermostat... literally cracked in half. Good thing I didn't try to use that one.

Oh, and I don't know if anyone else has as much fun as I had setting ignition timing... but MSD makes it fun with their multiple sparking trick... lol...

Finally found a timing light that worked with it.

The timing's advanced as far as it safely can be (since the MSD sparks for 20 degrees of crank anyway, it works out real well).

Now sometimes the idle drops to 500-600 and goes sputt, sputt, sputt, sputt, literally only twice per second.... the cams sound SO sick. Never stalls though. I try to keep the idle at a safe 1000. It likes to change itself periodically though.

That's about it...
I'm spending a lot of time doing school work too. That last week costed me a whole lot of money was the problem. Otherwise, I'd already have bought new injectors, a fuel riser, and a throttle body from someone here. ;)

We'll see.

peace
paul

[RobT5580]

Glad to hear your up and running again and i take it the head gasket worked fine.

[Justin86]

Well thats cool that you got it back up to speck and still kicking ass. :)