Project , Gm Ecm Kit / Turbo Kit

[Sean]

id be glad to.

currently runing a 1227749 pontiac sunbird ecm with the honda faotrcy advance locked out vacum and mechanical. using gm from later pontiac sunbird ICM and Dodge turbo1 27pph injectors with a dodge map sensor. i made the harness from bits i had laying about from a few other efi swaps. best place to start is a turbo sunbird harness and mount it in car.

there pics avaiable on justins website 88turboaccord !

im running aGM iac with an adapter plate over the coild air bypass hosuing and the spring and valve removed. running obtdc for timing base. GM heI coil.

now the new setup is gonne be wilder.

DIS from a cavalier. 122772 TGP ecm with a nice big injector driver board. the stock fets cant handle the loads reliabely. ive got 15k testing my driver board its bulletproof.cheap and easy to make and is user repairable no fancy bullshit.

along with the mopar map sensors they read higher. Honda TPS as well. its a big long complicated story but a wiring harness from a 91 lumina is the same and can be made to work with the TGP code moving 1 pin. simple enough.

ill tell yyou what i do need. lots of ECM connector pins how cheap can you get those as well as those damn wetaher packs 3 plug 4 plug etc ?

[88turboaccord]

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and waiting.

[AccordEpicenter]

one thing i was wondering... to modify the maps all we need is a utility program to convert it from hex to real world values and a prom burner?

[Sean]

yes i already have the software end covered. i got a package deal form teh company that provides my software. then all you need is a prom burner and preferably a laptop for data logging( which you would have to buy with any Aftermarket efi system or even using honda ecm's)

any laptop will work if itll run Win98. ill be including cable and diagnostics ports both laptop and GM obd1.

justin i just got mail from kraftoroni. hes just really busy at work says he can do it like tuesday of next week or so. itll happen. ive been amasing parts. im still touching up the ve maps. and timing tables on my current setup so i can export them.

sorry for the delay it is comming.

[A20A1]

Is there anyways to run the DIS without the bulk of the ECU?
I was just wondering cause I don't plan to go over the EFI just yet.

[PhydeauX]

shhhh.. we're working on it.

andy

[guaynabo89]

What kind of DIS system are you using? What car does it come out of and are you custom making the ring gear and pickup for it?

[MoonScryer]

Sean - how much time would you need a N/A car, to tune it properly for the ECM? I am not looking to turbo, but run N/A with some N/X direct port love thrown in using a B18 manifold, and keeping the stock dis for now. Sound like you can work within that?

[Scorpion88LX]

when you finish and get ready to sell will you do a write up on the whole thing explanning it and how to install the whole thing. since you have all these projects you should look into getting your own section so everything is nice and in one place.

[dXsquared]

so i basically cant buy this and bolt it in and get some major HP?

i have weber and headers and cam... but i dont want to have DIS and a bunch of other shit...

Travis

[Sean]

i have weber and headers and cam... but i dont want to have DIS and a bunch of other shit...

that ok this is a EFI upgrade over the webers 32/36. the DIS is most definately a big upgrade over the facotry distributor. this will work on carb and efi cars. the ecm is bascially standalone at this point. im soritng out the A/c control right now so the a/c can be computer controlled for more driveability.

dont worry about that stock distributor its a peice of junk.

[Sean]

What kind of DIS system are you using? What car does it come out of and are you custom making the ring gear and pickup for it?

im not making the ring gear. i desinged the ring gear but fabrication is happening somewhere else. the DIS system it self is comming from chevy cavaliers quad4's etc. the pickup will also be yet again another gm part. although ive been thinking about an infered or similar type of pickup i think magentic will be better more reliable and cheaper.


Sean - how much time would you need a N/A car, to tune it properly for the ECM? I am not looking to turbo, but run N/A with some N/X direct port love thrown in using a B18 manifold, and keeping the stock dis for now. Sound like you can work within that?

about 8-10 hrs to tune it properly. its mostly touch up at this point. as for the stock distributor no point in sticking with it. its junk and the DIS is way mroe stable and alot hotter. also running a No2 setup is great and to be honest you could set the map sensor up to recieve x vbolts to retard timming and add fuel making it a totally dry system when its on if your running 2bar map sensors.

email me well talk.

[dXsquared]

so this isnt a bolt on thing right? i will have to run wires and shit?

Travis

[Scorpion88LX]

why does the 86-87 intake manifold run better and what will happen if you just keep the 88-89 intake manifold

[Sean]

so this isnt a bolt on thing right? i will have to run wires and shit?

like 5 connections aside from plugging in sensors. not a striaght bolt on but much simpler then setting up any other ecm out there.


why does the 86-87 intake manifold run better and what will happen if you just keep the 88-89 intake manifold

it flows better and takes up less space and there is no way im bothering with writing code to turn it on and off.

[AccordEpicenter]

just disable or remove the bypass mechanism, then it becomes just like the 86 87 manifold

[Sean]

just disable or remove the bypass mechanism, then it becomes just like the 86 87 manifold

run a 86-87 intake. the 88-89 has a different ve curve. and it doesnt flow as well along with idle motor issues.

[gugumachi]

Originally posted by Sean
any laptop will work if itll run Win98.

:crying: aww, no macs? (I just got one so I guess I'll be getting used to that.) Oh well, there's always VirtualPC.

[Sean]

hmm i donrt think a mac has a rs232 does it ?

[carotman]

would the ring work for a B20A??? I feel lazy and I don't want to adap it myself) :D :D :D

[Sean]

as long as the crank snout diamtere is 0.9887 inchs yes.

[carotman]

0.9887 huh? can you be a little more precise??? :p

I think it's the same diameter... not sure tough. Anyway, if the B20A crank diameter is bigger, it's not a problem.

[carotman]

oh and BTW, it's a B16 a manifold that people must use NOT A B18A (well maybe a B18B)

The B18A manifold *could* be used but it's different from all other honda manifolds (it requires it's own PR4 ecu to control the Idle)

[gugumachi]

Originally posted by Sean
hmm i donrt think a mac has a rs232 does it ?

Sure doesn't, but I think there's a usb -> rs232 cable available.

[Sean]

well the gm ecm controls the idle. it doesnt care what manifold as long as the iac can open and close the idle orofice.

[3genAccordEXI]

Go for it !! Wait for ur good news :D
:bow: :bow:

[blazin3gen]

grave diggin!

[3genAccordEXI]

waiting for ur pics . Awesome ^^

[Mike's89AccordLX]

I saw one of those turbo sunbirds. Thought it was funny b/c my g/f drives a 94 or 95 sunbird (whatever was the last year they were made) What do you think will be the gains of the GM swap here?

[Elijah]

It is about time I have been waiting.Mad props!

[bobafett]

Originally posted by 3genAccordEXI
waiting for ur pics . Awesome ^^

damn those pics were hosted like last year or something. idont know why they arent working now. i will see if i can find it and fix the link.

[Sean]

19.0 19.7 19.7 19.0 19.0 17.9 8.8 4.6 5.3 4.9 3.9 3.9 3.9 0.4 3.9 3.9 3.9
19.0 19.7 19.7 19.3 19.3 19.7 9.1 9.1 9.5 9.1 7.7 7.7 7.7 7.7 7.7 7.7 7.7
19.3 19.3 19.7 19.3 19.3 19.0 13.0 12.0 8.4 8.8 7.7 7.7 7.7 7.7 7.7 7.7 7.7
19.7 19.7 19.3 19.3 19.3 19.0 16.5 14.8 12.3 7.7 7.7 7.7 7.7 7.7 7.7 7.7 7.7
21.4 21.8 20.7 20.7 21.4 19.7 17.6 14.1 13.7 12.7 7.7 7.7 7.7 7.7 7.7 7.7 7.7
24.6 23.9 24.6 24.6 23.9 22.5 19.3 16.9 14.8 13.0 9.8 7.7 7.7 7.7 7.7 7.7 7.7
27.8 27.8 27.8 26.4 26.0 24.6 21.8 20.4 19.0 14.4 8.8 7.4 7.4 8.4 9.8 8.4 7.0
29.5 28.5 28.5 28.1 27.1 27.1 23.9 22.9 21.4 18.3 10.5 9.5 9.5 9.5 8.4 8.8 6.3
30.9 29.2 28.8 28.8 28.5 28.1 26.0 23.9 23.6 20.0 16.2 14.1 12.7 12.0 10.2 8.4 7.0
31.6 30.2 29.5 28.8 29.2 28.8 27.1 24.3 24.3 21.8 18.6 16.5 14.4 14.1 12.0 9.5 7.7
32.3 30.9 30.6 29.9 29.9 29.2 27.4 25.3 25.0 23.2 19.7 17.9 15.8 15.1 12.7 10.5 8.1
33.0 30.9 30.9 30.2 30.2 29.5 27.8 26.4 25.0 24.3 20.4 17.9 16.2 15.8 13.4 10.9 8.4
32.3 31.3 31.3 30.9 30.6 29.9 29.5 27.8 25.0 23.2 20.7 18.6 16.2 15.8 13.4 10.9 8.4
33.0 32.0 31.6 31.3 31.3 30.6 29.9 27.8 25.0 23.2 21.4 19.0 16.5 16.2 13.4 10.9 8.8

[Sean]

from let to right it goes from 30-kpa to 190kpa in 10 kpa increments

from top to bottom its goes from 600rpm - 4800 rpm in varying increments bascailly every 400-600 rpm

[Sean]

28.5 30.5 36.3 37.5 41.4 44.9 48.4 55.1
30.5 32.4 37.5 41.4 45.3 48.4 54.3 60.5
31.6 34.8 39.1 42.6 47.7 52.3 58.6 68.0
34.8 37.1 41.0 44.9 49.2 57.8 65.6 76.2
37.9 42.6 45.3 50.4 55.1 62.5 71.5 82.8
39.8 44.5 48.4 53.5 59.4 66.8 75.8 86.3
42.2 46.1 50.8 57.0 62.1 69.5 79.3 87.9
42.6 46.9 50.8 57.8 63.7 71.5 80.1 88.7
42.6 46.5 50.4 57.4 63.7 71.5 79.7 88.7

[IWLSF]

Damn, where'd you manage to find something like that?

[bobafett]

http://www.com-tech-online.com/car/spark-table-1.gif
http://www.com-tech-online.com/car/spark-table-2.gif

[bobafett]

http://www.com-tech-online.com/car/ve-1.gif
http://www.com-tech-online.com/car/ve-2.gif

[IWLSF]

*whistles* I need to study up on using the programs at school like that before I graduate next month.

[Rngray5]

Forgive me for coming into this late, i remember seeing that you pulled the ECU from a 2.0 Turbo sunbird. what year is that from? i have a 86 2.0 turbo sunbird with no purpose other than driving it into stuff in our field, if i could actually use parts that would be great. also, unfortunatly that car is auto and my LXi is manual. that won't work correct?

[Sean]

if the turbo sunbird has a 1227749 ecm then your in luck.

[TWOLOUDNPROUD]

JET Performance Products does the upgrade for the for the efi Accord it does say it on there web site but they do but it has it Prise $300.00 it not cheap but they say it will give 8 to 10 Hp to the wheels here is there web site www.jetperfomanceproducts.com and the phone is 714-848-5515

[pimp86LX]

Originally posted by TWOLOUDNPROUD
JET Performance Products does the upgrade for the for the efi Accord it does say it on there web site but they do but it has it Prise $300.00 it not cheap but they say it will give 8 to 10 Hp to the wheels here is there web site www.jetperfomanceproducts.com and the phone is 714-848-5515

:stupid:






:flip:

[Sean]

hey email me. i need a core crank pulley from each of you. ive been having trouble locating them locally

[A20A1]

ok I'll see what i can do

[Sean]

bump this is important.

[A20A1]

I may be able to get you two... PM me some shipping info just in case... I'll try and get them off.

[Sean]

bump. i sent my adress via email as well.

[A20A1]

I didn't get it.... I'm going to check my other account.

I hope my inbox isn't full for the PM's

[Sean]

bump my email is [email protected]

[Sean]

well thanx to the fact i have sevral spare engines etc i was able to fab up my turbo header. good news. all power accersories A/C p/S etc stay put. i have to make a small modification to the cooling hose but WTF thats better then being hot all summer.

ooh and for those who are in the ecm group buy ive only heard from one of you for crank pulley cores. !!! get me those cores. thanx.

ill post pics early next week of the manifold and the finished ECM harness. along with the final locations for the DIS pack etc.

[Justin86]

Sweet. I can't wait to see the pics. How hard was it it to fab the header cause I'm thinking about the doing the same when I have the money saved up.

[toastyghost]

I'm guessing not too difficult if you already know how to weld pretty well. Too bad I don't. :D

[bobafett]

Originally posted by Sean
well thanx to the fact i have sevral spare engines etc i was able to fab up my turbo header. good news. all power accersories A/C p/S etc stay put. i have to make a small modification to the cooling hose but WTF thats better then being hot all summer.

ooh and for those who are in the ecm group buy ive only heard from one of you for crank pulley cores. !!! get me those cores. thanx.

ill post pics early next week of the manifold and the finished ECM harness. along with the final locations for the DIS pack etc.

SWEEET..

hey is this a simple log style manifold? or does it go up to the left and place the turbo where the dizzy "used to be"?

i am gonna have to start saving my pennies... how much would just the manifold cost us? i want the GM ECM setup as well, but i gotta start somewhere! :)

[NXRacer]

There is a place here in oregon that makes custom manifolds for any application. Its been talked about in the board before i think. I emailed them and they said it'll cost around $400 for one for the a20. Its a log style i believe. Just FYI.

[PhydeauX]

Are you talking about JGS? I just recieved the manifold for my nova from them yesterday. I bought the kit not the finished manifold ended up costing me $260 after everything. I couldn't see myself tacking it up and then shipping it all the way back across the fucking country just to have them weld it and then ship it back. It'll cost me less to just have a local shop finish it.

andy

[Sean]

its a very eficient log design. i kept having tranny and hood clearance issues with putting it where the dizzy used to be. but removing it does offer some nice Intercooler routing options that didnt exist before. along with getting rid of the junky stock distributor.

Im also gonna try to get these made for like $250 with ceramic $300. im working on it. getting flanges cut in reasonable quantitys is always tough.

[goldyaccord]

I foresee my turbo project being cheaper! :D

[A20A1]

Hey those in need of crank pully cores, if/when I get my cores in... those that do end up using my cores, please send sean your core once you get the modified one from sean. That way your stock ones can be modified for the next person that needs one.

[bobafett]

hahahah for 300 with ceramic youve got one as good as sold! :)

[Sean]

There’s actually a thread some of us mods have been talking in talking about this very subject. What exactly does the future hold? Well let’s start things off by saying 4 years ago we were in the Stone Age in terms of parts. Today however things look a lot better. The 13sec 1/4-mile accord might very well become a simple bolt on reality. Facts are there are parts coming and already available to make this happen. Well maybe not 13seconds as of yet but if i get the interest in turbo kits that there has been in the ECM's (which make turbos and other mods much easier to tame) then its very possible in the next 3-4 months i will put together a kit to turbo a Honda. I already know how to make 250hp which is plenty to run 13's.

The thing that troubles me is the attitude that still remains that cheap cheap cheap. To some degree not everything can be cheap. Inexpensive, yeah that’s very possible.

I guess my point is that with parts and other stuff that will be available these cars will be capable for a reasonable sum of money to run lower then 13's in the 1/4 mile. It cost lots of money to make a civic that fast. Here are some things I'm thinking of offering in the near future. Depending on interest some may come to fruition others may not.

Built long blocks. Capable of taking enough boost to make 350hp forged pistons, head studs, main studs, stainless valves, full rebuild, shot peened polished connecting rods. Balanced crankshaft, rebuilt cylinder head. This look like its doable for $1800 show me a b series anything that can touch that with all new parts?

Turbo kits with the turbo I would include we'd be looking at a drop in and go package capable of 250hp no problem. Designed to work with the GM ECM package include a used Turbo, header, downpipe, intercooler, intercooler piping, injectors, and fuel pump. In the $800-900 range

I guess my question is which direction do we as a group head in. It makes sense to run turbos and forced induction and take advantage of the strengths not the weak ness’s of the a20a.

Sure it’s nice to have a high revving 1.6L vtec engine. But lets be real about it. The accord is just a tad bit to heavy to really make use of that engine. The a20a is a strong robust well-built engine that likes boost. The only thing that needed to be overcome was the limitations of the engine management. Well the GM ECM takes care of that.

What about Torque. Yes it’s that important. Torque makes the car move not HP. Hp simply defines how fast you can produce TQ.

I want to hear from you about the future. These are my thoughts. There is no reason however that most every 3g isn’t capable of being a 13 second car. The parts are here or will be here soon. So please tell me your thoughts.

Sean out.



(I ran your original post thru MS Word. ) :) - A20A1

[od2681]

well said dude......I think ur goin or takin us into the right direction here...but sadly i cant afford anything nowadays...well my goal is 2000 dollars by the end of summer to invest in the 3gee..hope it works out for me...but ur idea aint bad..
I give it:super: :super: :super: :super: :super:

[hondacowboy003]

Sounds good to me. :)

[guaynabo89]

There are only about 10% of people on this board who would seriously dump alot of money on performance mods. For starters most of the users here are in the age group of 16-18. I don't know about the rest of you but when I was that old I was only making abot 200 every two weeks. That would take alot of the young dreamers along time to save for such big projects.


The direction your going in is definately the way to go.

I'm still interested in your ecu package, but unfortunately there are alot of things that must come first.

My engine is ready and willing to try out your ecu package, hopefully soon.;)

[AccordSi]

Well said Sean....you know I was interested in the ECM until you explained the crank sensor bit to me in a previous post. I'm still interested though but I am aware that it'll mean another set of research and development as well as an additional cost -ouch.
With regards to 13s, I do believe it's possible. Personally I'm gonna shoot for it with an 80hp DPI nitrous on top of my current set up. I know that some day soon I'll hit the number 13....

[Sean]

Dont let the crank trigger bit scare you to much. Its just a big pita to fab. that why i decided to run a group buy. i can knock out quiet a few at a time.

Please dont share discouraging things. Stay forward thinking. Dont forget 16-25 yr olds are spending big bucks on other imports why not the 3g. Make it go fast and watch them Come.

[hondacowboy003]

I agree sean, I mean look at the Type R, Dodge Neon SrT and countless other Factory hot rods. And although I and a few others make fun of the F&F "clones" the guys/gals that own them spent (or mommy and daddy) spent big money on them. I f we can get a few of these kids to say "Wow thats cool, I want one." its bound to start something.

And personally I and my wife fit in that 16-25 age bracket (Im 24 shes 22) and If I had the money Id DEFINETLY mod the hell out of my 3g, just to show ppl that the cars age doesnt make a damn bit of difference in how it will perform and handle.

[Justin86]

Hell yea! So what about that B16 head swap. What is the progress cause that could help make us a high reving turbo beast engine.

[88 Accord DX]

i have a carb.
would the turbo kit work for me?

[catalin]

Just stumbled on this post and I thought I'd share my story with you..

Sean I would love to pick up a kit from you, or at least know how to build one up myself.
I have an 86 hatch that I have just spent $5k on body work and paint. I have a brand new vinyl interior too and will be swapping in an A20 FI motor in the next couple of weeks or so.
It would take sometime until I will be able to come up with some cash again but I will definately make it happen somehow. I love driving this car and building it up is much cheaper than a brand new car that looks just like someone elses on the block.


http://members.shaw.ca/ccapota/IMG_0914s.jpg

[A20A1]

nice color... :D

[Techno]

Sean,

Well Said!!!

Just wish more here felt the same way.
I just got my 3G so I have a ways to go with my project...I will be there soon. Just kinda hard to work on it all the time when My JOB take most of my free time away from me. Military

Techno

[88' Accord Ltd]

Sean man you are taking the 3gee to the next level! When the turbo kits become available to buy, I'm there. Since I'm already in on the ECM then the turbo kit will make a niiiiiiice addition! :D

[Sean]

The best way to go EFI with you project car from carb is the GMECM less wiring actually like next to no wiring. the only pita is routing a new high pressure fuel line and changing the pump hanger. stil no biggie. ill see about making those turbo kits aviable toward the end of summer. ive still got a bit of R&D to finish before im satisfied with them.

[88' Accord Ltd]

Originally posted by Sean
The best way to go EFI with you project car from carb is the GMECM less wiring actually like next to no wiring. the only pita is routing a new high pressure fuel line and changing the pump hanger. stil no biggie. ill see about making those turbo kits aviable toward the end of summer. ive still got a bit of R&D to finish before im satisfied with them.

Sweet man! Looks like my money will be tied up for a while! :D

[stizle]

Sean if u make a turbo for our engine then you need to holla at me. I got the money and i would love to turbo my car.

(i just got in an accident and need to get car fixed but insurance is handling that )

anyway i would scoop one up as soon as possible.

[stizle]

i would rather do that then the engine swap that i had in mind!

[BA 88LX Auto]

:werd:

Sean:

I'm new to this forum but not new to the Import Performance bug. I recentlly sold my beloved 1990 CRX Si which I had owned for over 3 years and had invested over $10k on performance mods. I recentlly bought me an 88' Accord LX 4 dr and I love the confort and ride and the fact that it still looks so nice even though is 15 years old. I'm all for all that you said. If I ever get out of this damn slump I'm in I will start putting money into my 3G and more than likely will go the GM ECM and Turbo kit route. I'm glad someone is taking up the slack the aftermarket have left. You can count me in as soon as I can get my hands on some extra cash to baby my new baby.

I'm 32 years old so I guess you can say I'm part of the older crowd here... :mad:

:wave:

:super:

[Scorpion88LX]

Sean as many people said you have great ideas. And the Turbo kit sounds sweet. However not part of your statement (and i am sorry to mention it without the prompt) was your previous idea of the b16a head. I know that the car is not set up well as a high reving and on the street it just isn't practicle but the head has other advantages. The dual cams give you great flexability on tuning allowing you to tune exhost and intake independantly, also I believe it has a better flow and combustion camber desighn, and finally although contrary to the 3geez way has great aftermarket support. For turbo set ups it is as you know very important to control exhost tunning. But I also understand that you have/are trying this idea and if it is at all posible or sensable you can have my support.

Although this option is not part of this thread i would like to note that Sean knows his shit and if he puts somthing togather it will work and work well.

[3rd GEN]

ya man.. I am totally with you on that one..
alot of people think of our cars as " family cars" not that racey, done out type of car.. but actually..i like alot of older modles cars..like older tegs, older ludes and the 3G accords...they are still a really nice car..
like do any of you ever look at your car in a window or what not when driving along a street.. i LOVE doing that, just cuz i LOVE my car...
and better yet...our cars are way more unique then your everyday civic, teg or lude...

i mean everyone has a done out civic...
how many done out 3G's do you see...??
and just imagine having one..and and imagine being the person in the car beside you or that pedestrian walking down that sidewalk when they see you go by...

obviously they will remember the 3G cuz no one has one all done out...you will turn more heads, then a slammed out teg or whatever....

but anyway...ya i totally have faith in my A20..at first i was thinking of a b16 swap...but you know...our cars already have the more TQ and bigger size engine...so put those two to use and Walla, you got urself a nice little powerhouse..

and recently...i have REALLY concidered about goin turbo on the A20....and that right now is gonna be my big project..but obviously, i will need to build this baby up in the process...

[2old_honda]

Sean, you can count me in for your turbo kit. I was planning on piecing a kit together myself after I installed your ECM, but I would much rather buy everything from you. I would just like to encourage you to keep heading in the direction you are in. You are bringing some great products and ideas to us and I really admire you for that. thank you!

[Immeraufdemhund]

could you tell me more about the big block idea? What is a big block. I've heard a bunch about it from domestic cars, but not too familiar with it cause i've only ever done honda. Me personally if it is only for racing purposes i dont think i'd get it. One I want a car that can go when i want it to, but when i dont i want to save all the gas i can. (though it would be great to have a grin when racing a buttstang v8). The turbo idea is nice, but how much boost are we talking about? I love your GM ecm, that is the coolest idea and i'm currently saving for it ($100 saved so far). The b16 head idea has it's advantages. I'll talk to my buddy that loves making wild things and see about this a little bit. We have the welding and cutting capabilities. And he's a rather smart fella when it comes to modding engines and tranny's. (heck he's putting a chevy 350 in a isuzu trooper). It would rule to have a bit more aftermarket support for our cars, and i'm always pleased by the ideas and mods people do around here.

just my 2 phennigs.

[A20A1]

Bump... I wasn't able to get both pullies... Sean you should be getting mail soon. I hope it wasn't a mistake, not marking the package fragile.

[KaMiKaZeE]

Sean, I'm glad to see what you're doing, and both a race-prepped long block for $1800 and a 250hp turbo kit for $900 are steals. I'm 23, and I'm also wanting to support the 3geez performance scene, and I agree with you on the torque thing. I won't put a b16 in my cars because of the lack of torque. My route of support I'm planning is a little different though, as I want to further the engine swaps available to include some other interesting choices, as well as get some other choices in body kits available. I would like to make the swap kit for the h22's finally a reality for those who really want it, as well as a few other engines I've been thinking about that don't bear the H symbol. I also had planned on doing a turbo kit for the a20's, however I was counting on them costing more like $1500. How you'll do it for $900 I'll be anxious to see. I plan to build one of my 3geez with moderately increased performance and great looks as a daily driver, and the other I will be stripping down and getting wild with, in hopes of reaching the goal of a 3g (Well something that looks like a 3g anyway.:D) that beats current mustang cobras on the strip. I plan to make lots of how-to's as well as some publicly available parts (such as the engine swap kits and body kits) and I hope we both finally get the 3geez the respect they deserve. Perhaps a bit of colaboration is in order Sean?;)

[Sean]

thats kewl accord88ltd is sending 4. thats good cuase i occasionally screw shit up like everybody else.

[Sean]

i can do the turbo kits so cheap becuase im using preexisting parts from other cars and modifying them to fit. the turbos ill be supplying are capable of 22psi of boost. as always my thoughts and id like to here more from you guys.

[88' Accord Ltd]

What kind of turbo will be included in the kits? :)

[89AccordLvr]

im glad that ur doing so much for our 3geez sean by creating the ECM and the future turbo kit.... will this turbo kit consist of everything including the piping, blowoff valve, turbo manifold, intercooler.... i just want to kno what does it come with all together.... also do you have to have a ECM hooked up to use this turbo kit

[Sean]

details on turbo kits are a few weeks away for sure just getting the wored out. ecms are preprogrammed for 15psi of boost.

[89AccordLvr]

thanx but i wanted to kno if ur turbo wit the ecms will not hurt the motor stock or is it recommened we get custom rods and pistons and fuel injectors

[stizle]

Sean, hey man i was wondering do you need anyting else done your engine peerformance wise to have the turbo, Also i was wondering where you r located at>>>>>>>>>>>??????????

[od2681]

^^
yeah....

[Sean]

these will be setupo for stock lxi or carb motors. im not sure long term how safe 15psi is on thee motors is but ill find out. the motor the turbo is currently going on is dead nuts stock.

[goldyaccord]

I will be piecing together my own setup but use Sean's ECU Hack.

So, sean you'll be hearing from me when I get 700 bucks.

More and more, i want to do the Turbo as my first mod :D

[Neuspeed007]

that would be really cool for u to make a turbo app for the cars, but the thing that comes to mind when i think of a 3rd gen and the future is the body styling. i think we should make more kits for the car and start gettin freaky with the body lines. but no matter what its still a 3rd gen......

i just met a guy who set up a store in boise called onsoku motorsports, he starpped on a sticker so i could sport his store, maybe i can get him to design a kit

[AznImports602]

Here's a link for some parts for the 3gees (www.thepartsbin.com)
http://images.cardomain.com/member_img_a/255000-255999/255613_1.jpg

[od2681]

Neuspeed007 is right.....we need crazy body kits...although i dont like em....a lot of people out there are just lookin for body kits....stilll dont like em..lol

[Osiris]

To the guyz with turbos... I was wondering how they effect life time and maintence cost of your engine. I would get a turbo if im assured that the cost of maintence doesnt become outrageous or shortens the life span of my engine too much.

[3rd GEN]

damn.. this is getting exciting.. my herat is jumping just thinkin about all this stuff...

but ya Sean.. I am glad someone finally has the guts to go out and doo all this stuff.. that is SWEET!! Your the man bro..
i'm with ya all the way.,..cuz now finally someone out there feels the way i do..

i keep tellin my buddys what i'm doin to my car.. and they are like " pffffffff why are you wasting all that money on that pices of crap...get yourself another car thats more worth it....
then i keep tellin them.. " no worries... no worries.. it will be well worth it, cuz i will have a car that will turn more heads then theirs wil..."

[89AccordLvr]

also will u be making lots of turbo kits or will we have to pay then u make it during the time we pay or is it in mass production... wat u plan on doin as far as selling it how

[pip]

thats sweet just a little thing about 3g turnin heads, theres only 2 done up 3gs in my town mine being one of them, they turn heads i got people in raced out cars tellin me i got a cool car, its the only hatch around that isn't a POS and plus no one has ever seen a car like this before, its no street racer but its original, and i go upto cottage country and i can tell by the looks on their faces that they have no idea wut kind of car i'm driving its awesome

[NXRacer]

If we could get a full (or even partial) turbo kit for $900 that would be such a steal its not even funny. I have a T04 turbo just sitting at my house just waiting to be used. It needs to be rebuilt, but i just found a guy in my area that rebuilds them FOR FUN.

It would be my DREAM to be able to hear the most beautiful sound i know of.....turbo whine and blowoff. And to have it in a 3gee?!?!? I am fully behind this project and if we can get some sort of official how-to together, that would be incredible. As for people asking what its gonna do to the motor YES IT WILL BREAK IT DOWN. Obviously, if you add a turbo system, the motor is automatically shelling out a good 50-100 hp more then its built for. Obviously, this is going to take a toll on the motor. But if you build it carefully it will handle it no problem. ESP with a cast iron block like the A20a's use, the posibilities are mind boggling!

There are no words to express my gratitude to the guys who make this project a possiblity. (sniff) :lol

[POS carb]

hey Sean check these out, you probably knew about them but just in case it helps:
Crank Trigger Kits (http://store.summitracing.com/section.asp?d=11&s=53)

[zero.counter]

Sounds really great, better than the turbonetics turbo kit for $4k on the B16= 250HP. That kit includes the intercooler, blow-off valve, pipings, and does not require any cutting into the frame or bumper

[jlaccord89lxi]

i'm sorry, but what is this ecm thing i've heard so much about lately???

[carotman]

Anything for the B20A? :D

[AccordEpicenter]

sean i can get a deal on saab/air reaserch T3 turbo (under $50, needs rebuild), and was thinking of building my own manifold too. The turbo would need at least a seal kit... Worth it? Not worth it? Im thinkin T3 because you can upgrade to T3/T4 and parts/flanges etc are very cheap and readily available and easy to work with

[stizle]

yah i would like 2 know also, if it is a gain in horse power for our cars i want to know how i can get in on one!

[od2681]

me too..dont know about this ecm thing

[krott5333]

okay, will a turbo kit be available for a stock a20 efi engine, with no internal upgrades? For $900!!!

I would definitely buy one without hesitating.

[Sean]

Where do you begin to explian what the ECM kit can do for you. imagine having a ECM that you can reprogram and tune yourself. get it for less then $1400 be able to datalog and program on the fly ( if you by the tools) and rechip for under $100. Also add in features like being able to read boost and compensate fuel and timming. add in DIS or GM's Direct ignition system. rids you of the crappy ass distributor.im also including alot of the parts needed to do the job. im not sure how much the next group buy will be if i feature these up a bit prices may go up a bit. but the current run is at $650. unfortunately i have to source alot of used parts but in the next group buy i might include a few new items if i can find them at the right price. Oh and any GM dealer in america can work on it if your out in the boonies. and parts are easy to get as well. ill be including detialed part #'s for each of the big auto parts chains.


Eric thanx for the link but none of those kits will work with the GM dis setup. dont worry i got the trigger thing covered pulleys are on the way and its not a big Pita once the jig is setup to do the triggers.

[Low Tek]

sean, do you need more? I have one laying around somewhere.. if you need it let me know

[Sean]

send it please

[88' Accord Ltd]

Sean, I'll be sending the pullies out on saturday, as its my first chance to get down to the junkyard due to work...

[racerx]

I have some extra pulleys chillin in the garage, but a few are chipped a little. Do they need to be in perfect condition cuz I could send em.

[Sean]

hey guys. I ve been thinking really hard about intercooling and to be honest it has alot of detractractions that are hard to ignore. Its very bulky. It difficult to route. Its exspensive and to be honest even the best water to air units ive seen still suck.

So i was looking into Water injection as a inexspensive alternative to the Intercooler. Youve got to be thinking Injecting water into the engine ? hes gone nuts right ?

Well do a bit of research on the subject and you might undestand my view but i figured id putt it out in the air to talk about here. there is no reason with water injection you cant run upwards of 20psi of boost on pump gas.

Let me here what you have to say before i pick a direction.

[pimp86LX]

sounds really cool.

I found a link wich gives the basic idea.

Water injection preventing engine knock (http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/WaterInjection.html)

Its definity an alternative to the intercooler, but sounds more complicated. Although from what i read about you, you definitly seem up to the task. And the potential benifits may warrent serious consideration.

Good luck :super:

[2old_honda]

I dont know much about water injection but I do see a down side- if it fails that would be bad. Like if the pump fails, you blow a water tube, or even if you run out of water. A conventional intercooling system is basically maintenance free, but water injection seems like it is a more high maintenance item. I am definitely not against it tho, it is just something to think about. :)

[bobafett]

sheesh sounds cool but i must not understand it entirely, beause i still would feel safer with some FMIC action

[yaxley]

Why not a front mount intercooler that is said to cut 40-50% of the heat made by compresing the air through a turbo and adding water injection to that then if you have a problem with the injection you still have the intercooler and if you have no probs you have way more cooling and more power. I myself would just go with an intercooler for simplisaty(spelled wrong)

[PhydeauX]

I agree with yaxley on this one. I don't really like the idea of running just water. The water injection has its benefits, I think seans big one here is you dont need to find a place to mount the intercooler and you dont have to route the pipes. I can vouch for that being quite the pain in the ass as I'm just getting to that point on my nova. On the other hand with the water injection you have to cart around the water with you can keep the tank full. Some one already mentioned what happens when the water runs dry or other wise fails. If its a track only car then its not going to be much of a deal, but on a street car I woudln't want it as my only source of charge cooling. You can always put in a bigger tank, but the bigger the tank the more extra weight you've got to tote around, besides finding a place to put the thing. A hybrid setup using both is definitly a good way to run alot of boost with pump gas though. Rely on just the ic for driving around town, then when you get to the track turn on the water and crank up the boost. You can keep a smaller more efficient ic to keep the lag time down to a minimum and still have enough cooling to keep the detonation under control.

andy

[yaxley]

Sean if I were to put your kit on my NA car when I were to turbo it how hard is it to change your kit to work with the turbo? Also if I didn't feel confortable about putting it in myself what would your fee be if you would be intrested in installing it.

[NXRacer]

Why not just run an air to air intercooler with a N2O cooler kit? You can pick up a front mount intercooler fronm junk yards that arent half bad. Theres a guy here in oregon that has an f350 FMI on his old school RX7. If thats possible, i think it would be possible on our cars. Hell, i've been thinking about doing it to my fiesta. If they can put big f-ing intercoolers on Civics, why cant we? With a small boost (which i imagine most 3gers will be running) will they really need an intercooler anyway??

Another option is to rig a setup like the Subarus have. Intercooler/intake on top with a functional hood scoop.

water injection to me would be the last resort. Its pointless to carry around a huge load of dead weight just so you can cool the air. LESS weight would help more then water cooling i would think.

[88' Accord Ltd]

Originally posted by 2old_honda
I dont know much about water injection but I do see a down side- if it fails that would be bad. Like if the pump fails, you blow a water tube, or even if you run out of water. A conventional intercooling system is basically maintenance free, but water injection seems like it is a more high maintenance item. I am definitely not against it tho, it is just something to think about. :)

:werd:

It seems like it could be high maitenance. IMO it would be a good thing if it was just for the strip but a lot of us are going to be daily driving these accords and its more practical to use a FMI.

EDIT: I forgot to add that when I removed my A/C there seems to be room to fit an inter cooler where the condensor once was. and piping where the compressor used to be! :D I'm sure not everyone will want to have removed A/C since the turbo kit is deigned around it though..

[89AccordLvr]

hey if u test it on ur car and everything seems fine im willing to use water injectors to boost my ride

[stizle]

Originally posted by yaxley
Sean if I were to put your kit on my NA car when I were to turbo it how hard is it to change your kit to work with the turbo? Also if I didn't feel confortable about putting it in myself what would your fee be if you would be intrested in installing it.

Yah cause i might want that done also.

[stizle]

i second that .

[89AccordLvr]

dont kno if this makes since or ever used but here it goes

i third that

[bobafett]

u guys maybe dont understand completely. you cant just buy a turbo kit for 900 and call it a day. that kit needs to be complimented with a 749 GM ECM for engine management and plenty of other supporting mods:

guages, fuel system upgrades, intercooler, charge pipes, bov... plenty of stuff.

but the price for a kit is good still, because it takes care of all the hard stuff, and all the stuff that would hinder most people. anyway can order parts from the internet, but this is custom work that sean is doing for us. he has made a manifold that will fit t3 turbos. thats a huge deal because it DOES mean that we can bolt on any turbo from saab volvo chrysler etc.. ya know?

[88' Accord Ltd]

Yeah Boba is right, I think also with the design of the turbo header Sean was going to stick the turbo where the distributor was.

[bobafett]

he said it is a radical log style manifold. it will allow us to keep AC and power steering, which is cool. but i think it is dependent on using the DIS sytem, you cant really put a turbo there if you already have a dizzy. lol...

but heck, if he wants to make it proprietary thats fine with me. cause i dont see anyone else bending over backwards for projects like this. so why not support him. it will be a superior setup than any ghetto hack, and cheaper than injectors, AFC, and MSD lol... and about 15x safer too.. :)

[88' Accord Ltd]

No kidding, I fully support his ideas because he knows his shit and isn't talking out his ass. Even just buying the ECM to run the engine N/A is worth it to me. I was going to go N/A until I saw he was making a turbo kit DESIGNED to run with the ECM, plus I like the sound of a bov! :D

[bobafett]

http://www.homemadeturbo.com/forum/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=4257

hrm they seem to like it! :)

[88' Accord Ltd]

Haha, I read that whole thread they had on water injection. Now I'm kind of on the fence here. I guess it all depends on how much boost we're going to be running in the end.

[Sean]

its not terribaly high maintence.actually with 15 psi of boost youd need to refill every 3 tanks of gas if the container was 5gallons in size. i cant think of any other way to run 87 octane gas at 15 psi. plus you still get to use the cheap stuff. sourcing fabricating and building and Intercooler setup would run up the cost of the turbo kits by about 30-40% over the water injection and as i siad doenst offer nearly the cooling potential.

[2old_honda]

I say just go with the water cooling, if someone wants to ad a front mount they can do it themselves. Or you could offer the option of either water, IC, or both.

[dXsquared]

man... i have been seriously thinkin of gettin rid of accords for ever... getting a little CIVIC SI hatchback... but today i was looking at a 1989 EXi with 130 000 kms on it.. thats like brand new.. and its the same price as a civic... so im thinkin that i might go for a turbo accord with a GMECU and water injection... it would all be the same price, or less for the accord... so im now crossed between the two cars..


i definetly like the water injection tho... thats the best way to do it

Travis

[89AccordLvr]

so with this water injection we wont need a intercooler at all

[krott5333]

Oh hell, that means I can put any turbo they make for the DSM on my car?


DUUUUDEEE im in, i dont care how much it costs, anybody live near erie, pa that wants to install this thing for me!!!?????

Okay, gonna have to postpone my header install, cuz why put a header on if im gonna have to take it out anyway?


Okay, so whats a good estimate of total cost, of BOV, FMIC, turbo kit, boost gauge, controller, etc etc??

Possible for under $2500?

[bobafett]

engine management:

ECM setup $700 ORRRR SAFC $300, injectors $150 (junkyard), MSD 6al $250, MSD BTM $150. total cost $850 for a shitty way to run boost. also you can only run 1bar of boost this way (like 11psi MAX i believe) so in this case his ECM is the CLEAR alternitive.

now you will also need fuel pump $150
FPR wouldnt be bad idea $100
boost gauge $50
pryo gague if your smart/ AF gauge if youre cheap $150/$50

intercooling:
junkyard $50-$150 depending..
tyrus intercooler 6"x30" for $250 BRAND NEW (excellent deal)
charge pipes made $150 ish from exhaust shop.

bov $50-$250 depending on brand.
boost controller can be MADE at home depot for $15 in parts, and be more reliable than any electronic controler.

you will also need the misc fittings and little tubes, but that all comes in under $100 i would guess. but you will have to pay for a custom downpipe to be made.

ALSO, this will not work for any DSM turbo, the t3 mounting flange is a square, and i believe the DSM's use a round flange. not sure, i just know they are differeent. thats fine though. dsm guys upgrade turbos too ya know. and t3's can be found in a junkyard that would be perfect for our cars! :D

there is no way to put a final price on it, beucase some people will indulge in luxuries, and some people will take shortcuts, no two turbo setups will ever be exactly the same for our cars..

hope those numbers helped though

[bobafett]

yes, but in the same sense that you really could get away with neither of these mods...

all an intercooler does is reduce the temperatures of the intake charge... a cooler, more dense charge, is much less likely to preignite, or cause detonation. when you add in intercooler it allows you to: run more boost, or run same boost with cheaper fuel, drive your car consistintly with higher boost levels because its SAFER. now water injection accomplishes the same thing. so yes, you could use water injection and no intercooler and be fine. if you used both, you could run much higher boost levels, and not have to worry about it. (other than just engine WEAR from producing all the HP) however, you could also run neither system, and be fine. so long as you had a really well tuned car, and were always running 92 octane gas, and running low levels of boost. now for a daily driver car, i like the idea of giving it cheap gas, but i am very paranoid for reliability.

when i do my turbo setup i will run a tyrus intercooler, which fits BEAUTIFULLY in civics and crx's, so i am hoping it will fit ok in my car. :D. but i will also give my car 92 octane gas, and i will run really low levels of boost for the most part. if i see a race coming on i can just crank up the boost on the controller, and then POOF, i am making good power, and i still dont need to worry, since i have FMIC and good gas on my side. water injection is just insurance. it allows you to be more crazy. or in my case, more safe. :D

[88' Accord Ltd]

Originally posted by 2old_honda
I say just go with the water cooling, if someone wants to ad a front mount they can do it themselves. Or you could offer the option of either water, IC, or both.

Thats exactly what I was thinking of last night before bed. "I guess if he went with the water injection I could always add an intercooler after, maybe I'll ask him if he can offer both?". I'm not sure Sean wants to go through the extra trouble of putting together 2 different kinds of setups though.

[88LXiHB]

PROPANE INJECTION!!!

[Sean]

to think i was going to include a chrysler t03 at a 42Compressor A/R and a .48 exhuast A/R. that big enough to run 20 psi of boost. if you need more then a s60 impeler kit could be added to your chrysler to3 and then youll be into about 25 psi of boost. the flange is propriatary to chrysler but could be redrilled for any t3. just one hole is all. i am wondering however how well a s60 compressor will fit on with where i have everything sandwidched. as for the Log is prtty much the baic log with alot of thought put into the exacution so hopefully everything will fit on every car with minimal work.

[PhydeauX]

Isnt propane injection for diesels? I've never heard of it being run as a power added for a gas car.

andy

[88LXiHB]

Originally posted by PhydeauX
Isnt propane injection for diesels? I've never heard of it being run as a power added for a gas car.

andy

GN guys have been using it for years. It's cold, cheap, and 108 octane. :D

It will be on the DSM eventually.


"well, my greddy egt is finally in after a couple days of digging through wire hell under the dash. very interesting to have; should have gotten one much sooner. ive learned a lot more about my car tonight.
in particular, how much propane injection really does help out...

all of my experimenting was done in 3rd (a little bit of screwing around in 4th as well) gear at or above 5000rpms. my car's fuel system is bone stock, sans the propane. manual boost controller tries to keep the big16g at 17psi, but lets it run up to 20.
so here we go. 11:30pm, 60 degrees or so, pretty close to sea level. very humid; a shower swept through earlier. there were clouds of fog hanging above the road i tested on.

lets see what happens.
third gear, starting out about 5000rpms, maybe 1/4 throttle. egt was between 750-800c. propane turned off by killswitch. exxon 93 octane in the tank. here we go; throttle pegged. boost spikes to 20, sinks to 17. egts pretty much sweep up to 900 in a couple seconds. fuel cut came quickly at 930 deg which was at about 6000rpms. i let off after that.
no, 440s and the stock pump cant handle that.

third gear, starting out about 5000rpms, maybe 1/4 throttle. egt was hovering pretty much 800c after the last run. propane on, 93 octane etc. lets see now. boost spikes to 20, although after a slight hesitation at 10 when the propane started injecting, then plateaus at 17. egt 850 at 6000rpm. fuel cut. its ok little ecu, i know what you dont. i let off to about 80% throttle to bypass that little pain in my ass and take it to 6500. the egt was just about to crest 900 when i let off.


so there it is. 17psi, stock fuel system = the suck. 17psi, propane = egts 100c cooler.

discuss!"

[bobafett]

sean youre saying the manifold would work without the ECM setup.... (DIS system)

you would prolly sell more if they would work on "stock" cars as well. :D lol

[Justin86]

I would just go with the intercooler.

[Sean]

So you think the intercooler would be better even thought the Water injection works at 150% effciency ?

[Justin86]

I'm not too educated on the water injection, but it sounds like can cause some problems if things go wrong. Even though the intercooler isn't as effcient it won't cause any damage. I need to read more on this water injection before I can be sure.

[A20A1]

I used to spray propane in my stock motor... hehe boy oh boy... those were the days.

Anywho... I'm sort of for... if you have the turbo... remove the damn A/C cause of the condensor, that will make room for the intercooler, I think... and then use water injection on your face to cool yourself. :D

[A20A1]

BTW there is a very good book out... I've actually seen a few under a simmilar title...

This one has a blue cover and Says something like Superchargers, Turbos and Nitrous Oxide. there is info on water injection among other things... I was planning to get it but not anytime soon.

[pimp86LX]

I think water injection just sounds scarey to people so they super hesitant about it.

[Sean]

you would prolly sell more if they would work on "stock" cars as well. lol

noit a big concern really. any amount of boost wil be dangerous on a stock EFI system.

[krott5333]

Okay, a few questions here.. what exactly is this ECM setup? Do I send sean my ecu and he sends it back or something? How much? What exactly does that do?

Also, would a delta 272 be beneficial with the turbo? I was thinking of getting a 272 camshaft, but if its not gonna be a good combo with the turbo, then ill hold off and get a different cam.

What other kind of mods would compliment the turbo?

I should hold off on the header, right? Because wont there be a new manifold that the turbo hooks up to?


Thanks


And how much horsepower are we talking about here?

[krott5333]

Originally posted by guaynabo89
There are only about 10% of people on this board who would seriously dump alot of money on performance mods. For starters most of the users here are in the age group of 16-18. I don't know about the rest of you but when I was that old I was only making abot 200 every two weeks. That would take alot of the young dreamers along time to save for such big projects.


The direction your going in is definately the way to go.

I'm still interested in your ecu package, but unfortunately there are alot of things that must come first.

My engine is ready and willing to try out your ecu package, hopefully soon.;)

I'm pretty much in that group (19 yrs old) and I am dead serious about putting a turbo in my car, because I can just imagine the sleeper it will be. I am going to save up about 2 grand or so, then buy everything at once.. ah man its gonna be sweet!

please sean go through with this!

[Sabz5150]

I've always had the opinion that turbocharging is not the way to go on an import engine. The answer is supercharging. A few things come to mind when I think about this... First off, you lose your headers. The turbo manifold works great but produces a decent amount of backpressure simply from it's immediate 4-1 design and trying to push exhaust gases through a turbine. Secondly, my biggest gripe with turbos is lag. You've gotta wait for that turbo to spin up before it produces boost. Depending on the size of your snail, it could start producing boost as late as 4000 RPMs. In an engine where the main drawback is low end power and torque, this makes a bad situation worse. A super would give you the power you need the instant you hit that pedal, increasing power in the bottom end... where we all know imports are famous for NOT having it. This is also vital if you're running low compression pistons. Low comp + no boost = very little power.

Also with a super, you don't need the incredibly large intercooler hooked to your intake plumbing. Hey, some people like to show the world that they're boosted to the hilt, but if you're looking to save hood space and not deal with all the piping then supers are good for that. They only need a very small water cooled (or small front mounted) cooler because they're not running the intake air right next to the exhaust.

With the hood closed, there's almost no signs of 'engine voodoo' (Thank you HT for that term ;) )

Anyway, that's just my two cents. I may be horribly incorrect somewhere in this, but it all makes sense to me. I'm gonna start filling up a savings account when I get situated in a good job and when there's enough in there, Jackson Racing is getting a call from me :)

[BA 88LX Auto]

Sabz5150:

I agree with you that the Supercharger (SC) has it's advantages, but, the engine doesn't care how boost is made, Turbo or SC, boost is boost.

Is true, turbos can produce the dreaded lag but, if you match the engine with the right size turbo, lag WILL be minimal, if any. There is also the balll bearing turbos out there that reduce or eliminate lag alltogether except for the larger sized turbos. That's why they are hybrid turbos out there that will give you low to no lag and high boost capacity all in the same package.

Turbos are more efficient than SC if you choose the right size. That's why most SC kits are offered without any aftercoolers due to the LOW boost they will give you. I know of a SC'ed 88' Civic Si Hatchback producing INSANE boost levels (22 psi) without internal mods but the SC kit is a prototype and will cost upwards of $5,000 if it ever makes it to production. You can achieve the same level of power and reliabulity on a turbo kit and spend less than that.

As I said, boost is boost and no matter what, stock internals may be good to only 7-9 psi if the ECM is set up just right, I wouldn't go any higher than that without having a spare engine to install as soon as the boosted one calls up the ghost.

Boost is addictive, one thing turbos are famous for is adjustabuility, raising the boot levels on a turbo is very easy, most of the time, a turn of a knob is all it takes to produce more horsepower, on a SC however, incresing boost will require a more involved procedure of getting smaller crank pulley and a shorter belt and such which you just can't do as quickly and efficiently as with the turbo.

If you are worried about backpressure, the back pressure that hurts turbo performance is AFTER the downpipe not before. turbos will quiet a car exhaust noise down also, SC won't do that.

The SC/Turbo wars have been going for ever and no one has come a clear winner. you need to determine what you want to achieve with your car and find the best solution (or compromise) for what you want. For most of us, turbocharging is the way to go.

Sean, keep up the good work...

Regards...

BA...

[Sabz5150]

Originally posted by BA 88LX Auto
Sabz5150:

I agree with you that the Supercharger (SC) has it's advantages, but, the engine doesn't care how boost is made, Turbo or SC, boost is boost.

Is true, turbos can produce the dreaded lag but, if you match the engine with the right size turbo, lag WILL be minimal, if any. There is also the balll bearing turbos out there that reduce or eliminate lag alltogether except for the larger sized turbos. That's why they are hybrid turbos out there that will give you low to no lag and high boost capacity all in the same package.

Turbos are more efficient than SC if you choose the right size. That's why most SC kits are offered without any aftercoolers due to the LOW boost they will give you. I know of a SC'ed 88' Civic Si Hatchback producing INSANE boost levels (22 psi) without internal mods but the SC kit is a prototype and will cost upwards of $5,000 if it ever makes it to production. You can achieve the same level of power and reliabulity on a turbo kit and spend less than that.

As I said, boost is boost and no matter what, stock internals may be good to only 7-9 psi if the ECM is set up just right, I wouldn't go any higher than that without having a spare engine to install as soon as the boosted one calls up the ghost.

Boost is addictive, one thing turbos are famous for is adjustabuility, raising the boot levels on a turbo is very easy, most of the time, a turn of a knob is all it takes to produce more horsepower, on a SC however, incresing boost will require a more involved procedure of getting smaller crank pulley and a shorter belt and such which you just can't do as quickly and efficiently as with the turbo.

If you are worried about backpressure, the back pressure that hurts turbo performance is AFTER the downpipe not before. turbos will quiet a car exhaust noise down also, SC won't do that.

The SC/Turbo wars have been going for ever and no one has come a clear winner. you need to determine what you want to achieve with your car and find the best solution (or compromise) for what you want. For most of us, turbocharging is the way to go.

Sean, keep up the good work...

Regards...

BA...

I know the engine doesn't care how the boost gets there, what I'm more interested is WHEN the boost is made. Your standard turbo won't start producing boost until around 3000RPMs and up (unless you've got a quick lil turbo). The supercharger makes its boost immediately, which will produce good bottom end power, something our engines lack.

5 to 7 PSI is sufficient for me, I don't need so much boost that my engine can't run on 93 octane gas. Just enough to give the engine some nice power. Granted superchargers are a LOT more expensive than turbos, as you can get a small turbo from the junkyard for 30 dollars. Superchargers are a bit more difficult to come by....

Its all a person's preference I guess. Go with what makes you happy and satisfies your addiction for boost :D

[NXRacer]

From my experience being around cars with both superchargers and turbos, it seems to me that honda motors work better with turbochargers. I've seen integras with jackson SC and they just dont perform that well compared to the money that was invested to install them. Turbos have a much better history of working well with turbos. Of course spend enough time and money and you can get anything to work well with any motor, but for my money i'd prefer a turbo based on my experience seeing them in various applications. If i were to go SC, i'd stay away from a 'roots' style SC (like a jackson) just because if the belt breaks, you run a really high risk of totaling the SC. With the other style (the name i forget at the moment) nothing happens if the belt breaks. Its pretty much just a belt driven turbo, which in my opinion seems like a better way to go. I wonder how hard it would be to bolt on the second choice? Seems like a lot less work and hassle getting them to bolt up and work then to get a jackson style made. You wouldnt have to go through all the trouble of having to try to mate up the manifolds and crap.

Just my $.02.

But just like sabz said, its all in a persons preference and how much time and money they are willing to put into the project.

[2old_honda]

we need the pics!

[NXRacer]

is it a standard 4 bold flange? Can the flanges be changed? I have an old RotoMaster (now garret) t04 turbo and it has a 3 bolt flange.

[toastyghost]

Originally posted by 2old_honda
we need the pics!

yeeesssss teh preciouses

[Sean]

i need the various TPS color codes and the model years they apply to does any body have this information of hand ?

[Justin86]

TPS codes? I might be able to help if I new what the hell it ment.

[MrBen]

Throttle Position Sensor

['88LXIDerek]

sean give me a message about the turbo kit
derek

(nicely said)

[AZmike]

I only have the information for the 89
yellow/white (+)
green/white (-)

[Justin86]

Originally posted by 89LXi4dr
I only have the information for the 89
yellow/white (+)
green/white (-)
It is the same for the 86-87.

[A20A1]

Bump... sean is that what you needed?

[cruznz]

Originally posted by 89LXi4dr
I only have the information for the 89
yellow/white (+)
green/white (-)

Originally posted by Justin86
It is the same for the 86-87.

as well as '88....theres also the red/yel wire too

[A20A1]

project central here we come.

[cruznz]

hows the DIS coming along Sean?

[Sean]

working out a few small bugs and locating parts. ive got the harness's built its hard however to find good parts.

[Elijah]

So if I do this no more sci and coil.Anybody wan't to buy them if I buy one of Sean's systems

[sanjay]

now this is exciting....

[cruznz]

Originally posted by Sean
working out a few small bugs and locating parts. ive got the harness's built its hard however to find good parts.

What parts you after?
Might be able to source something here for you

Congrats. on your progress with the ECM project,hope to see the DIS up and running soon....:super:

[Sean]

in the 1100- 1200 range. will have used turbo, manifold, IC pipping, oil lines and retunr ( im gonna run and oil pan swap out so you guys dont have to dril yours ) plus ill also send all the water colling lines as well. the kit is designed around the .42 compressor .48 exhuast of the 85-93 chrysler garret to3. its the perfect turbos good for alot of boost and cheap upgrades are every where.

just checking interest. manifolds will be ceramic coated. BTW im looking at getting stainless down pipes and whole 2.5 and 3 inch systems. price could go up or down. depends on the guy doing the work. all stuff will be manrel bent.

[bobafett]

woowooo. very interested. all of that sounds very worthwhile. i especially like the idea of the oil lines and predrilled pan, so we wont have to worry about routing since you will already have it all figured out. :)

[88' Accord Ltd]

I'm definately in for this Sean! Like bobafett said I like the idea of the oil pan being done already, since that was the only thing I was concerned with when putting the turbo kit on. Any idea as to when you plan to have them available?

[2old_honda]

I will be buying one. I really dont need you to supply the tapped pan or oil and water lines. You make it too easy! lol

One question though, Will you be supplying a IC also? If so, what is it?

[bobafett]

sean plans on using water injection in place of FMIC beacuse you could get away with higher boost levels, and still use 87 octane gas. :)

but im doubting thats part of the basic turbo kit

[2old_honda]

Originally posted by bobafett
sean plans on using water injection in place of FMIC beacuse you could get away with higher boost levels, and still use 87 octane gas. :)

but im doubting thats part of the basic turbo kit

I thought so too, but he said he was including IC piping? I guess he meant charge pipes? http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/dunno.gif

[Mike's89AccordLX]

All I have to say is sweet!!! I'm assuming it will be awhile before it's done so I will try and put some money aside.

[carotman]

I might buy some of the hardware... but since I got a b20a going under the hood, I'll need a different manifold, oil pan and downpipe

[NXRacer]

There is a LOT of interest, but how many people have the money? Is this going to be a group buy situation or will you have it available 'all the time'? You might want to see about possibly having it marketed through a wholesaler or something. My wholesaler does a lot of R&D with supras and turbos and you might be able find somebody similar (or maybe contact mine) to do distribution on some level. Just an idea.

I'm diffinately interested, but i was hesitant to post because i know i wont have the money for it any time soon.

[88' Accord Ltd]

I was wondering, what are we going to do about the headgasket? Sean I think I read that you had a turbo running on your car for a while. How did the headgasket hold up?

[StUpiD8000]

if its in that range Id get a kit....

[wprocomp]

I am defintly interested...need to find a LX-I 5-speed car first though

[thundertank]

what about the carbd 3geez? would this not be an option for us then?

[dXsquared]

turbo's on a carb are really hard... not imposible, but a P I T A... thats why im gonna sell my accord and either get a 1991 Civic Si, or a 1989 Accord LXi HB from Texas, or AZ if the turbo kits and the GM ECU thing will make it fast

Travis

[2old_honda]

Originally posted by NXRacer
There is a LOT of interest, but how many people have the money

Thats a good point. It sucks because a lot of people here say that they will get in on things but when the time comes to pay up they suddenly disappear. I can only speak for myself when I say that I do have the money, and I fully intend to buy one of these when the time comes.

[89AccordLvr]

that is great sean hopefully you will get people to buy them so you can make more kits in the future because i kno ill be interested but definetely not now

[Sean]

i did mean charge pipping. im on alot of pain meds for my hand. water injection kits are seperate and currently under developemnt. ive gotten all the kinks worked out of the turbo manifolds however. ill have to work out some hard pricing. i might do a group buy unless i can get teh company thats doing the manifolds to just run a batch and sell them direct. mine was the prototype. i will see where we stand in the next few weeks. id also like to see a show of hands for those that can afford them and would buy one. ive been toying with the T-kit and ECM pacakage. have to see where that goes.

[88' Accord Ltd]

I will have the money when the ECM buy wraps up. About the end of september I should have a nice chunk of change for the turbo kit. I fully intend to buy one, even if I have to borrow the money!

[Sean]

well im not even close to having a price on wtaer injection yet but it should be cheaper then a spearco air to air FMIC.

[NXRacer]

Hey sean, I dont know your prices for FMIC's but i can get HKS air to air FMIC's for right around $300.

Core #3, 251mm Width x 257mm Height x 65mm Thick
MSRP $395.00 My Price - $308.97

Core #9, 200mm Width x 216mm Height x 65mm Thick
MSRP - $415.00 My Price - $327.73

I can also get ones that are just over $400. These prices aren't firm and will probably go a little lower.

[2old_honda]

Originally posted by NXRacer
Hey sean, I dont know your prices for FMIC's but i can get HKS air to air FMIC's for right around $300.

Core #3, 251mm Width x 257mm Height x 65mm Thick
MSRP $395.00 My Price - $308.97

Core #9, 200mm Width x 216mm Height x 65mm Thick
MSRP - $415.00 My Price - $327.73

I can also get ones that are just over $400. These prices aren't firm and will probably go a little lower.

is that just the core? or does it include endtanks?

[NXRacer]

*edit* just checked and thats not including end tanks.

end tank is $60 for the #3 and $65 for the #9. Both sides are included in this price.

[AccordEpicenter]

depending on what i can get saved up, i think i might be in for a turbo kit... if the price is right. It must be daily driveable tho and id prefer to be able to at least upgrade to an fmic without reworking everything...

[Sean]

well hey do what ever you want with teh intercooler. ill be a snap to route in. with where i have the compressor oulet located. none of thos eintercoolers you mentioned as nearly as good as a spearco. nothing is better then a spearco. when comparing air to air intercoolers. but youd be very hard pressed to find a air to air intercooler that could touch what my water ijection setup can do.

[88accordlxcarb]

Could you make one for a carb?

Or would it just be better to wish and hope?

[Sean]

Originally posted by 88accordlxcarb
Could you make one for a carb?

Or would it just be better to wish and hope?

well the gm ecm setup makes efi conversion pretty easy. change fuel pump, route new high pressure line, add efi intake,plug in gm ecm kit. off you go. no interior harness swapping. the gm ecm kits are 100% underhood setups.

[Elijah]

Will you cut deals if people take the ecm and turbo kit?
I have a b18 not in.But I would really like turbo instead if it is not to much.

[Sean]

I have a b18 not in.But I would really like turbo instead if it is not to much.

got bad news. the ecm kits are only designed to work on the a20a. maybe at some point in time ill mess with different engines but i dont think thats gonna happen anytime soon.

[Elijah]

If I could get a decent turbo kit for a decent price I will not do the swap.

[88accordlxcarb]

Originally posted by Sean
well the gm ecm setup makes efi conversion pretty easy. change fuel pump, route new high pressure line, add efi intake,plug in gm ecm kit. off you go. no interior harness swapping. the gm ecm kits are 100% underhood setups.

Do tell???

That in two years(maybe less) i would be very interested in. Plus the turbo.

[ryer_s]

which turbo are you planning on selling in your kit sean?

[Sean]

read the thread all the info is here.

[goldyaccord]

Originally posted by Sean
read the thread all the info is here.

yep yep, read read read. it's all there :)

[AccordEpicenter]

yea i hear ya sean about the water injection, but i was thinking of the fmic as an addition to it... it cant hurt

[Sean]

no but it wont be needed thats for sure

[Sean]

im trying to locate a camera capable of mpegs

[Sean]

ive been keeping a tight lip about the turbo kits etc. ive got a functionaing prototype with my ecm kit on my personal vehicle. im headed to the track friday to collect data and finish the tunning. at 6-8 psi car pulls like a v8 rwd car. boost is very easy to control. ive been doing alot of work on gettin the turbo to spool when there enough traction to alow for it. so far ive run some really high boost levels without breaking anything. im ot going to say how high. what i can say is that after 3 weeks of testing a non intercooled stock carbed a20a with my ecm and a t03 turbo at 608 psi everything is fine. lots of power feels like that car it really like smooth and just sits you in the seat. even on the highway it feels like a new car.

for giggles today i blipped the throttle to entice a mustagn owner and boy was that fun. the look on his fas was priceless after his brand new gt got dusted by a 16 yr old honda with bad exhuast vavle seals.

anyways i figured you guys deserved to know that the turbo kits will be manufactured by a local fellow who has time. once the deal is made and 5 people have approcahed me ill put everything together and spit a price out. the kits with the t03 turbo should produce upto 20 psi of boost.

whats included.

charge pipe
4 into one exhuast manifold. ( not eaul length)
2.5 inch downpipe
air intake pipe

things youd need to collect turbo, odds and end hoese.

ill also be running an oil pan swap out or send me your pan and ill tap it. thats where it is. so folks if you want a turbo kit email me asap. and ill get the prices together.

for those who are interested ill be running another group buy on the boost ecms in the very near future as well.

Water injection kits are not ready for use and are still in development. once you see how much power a 3g makes at 6-8 psi on 93 octane pump gas youll wonder why anybody even bothers with a civic.

anyways sean out

[dXsquared]

give us some approx times man... cuz if they are competitive with Civic's i might just go out and get another Accord and turbo it... the problem is that a new car is like 8 months away...

give us a 1/4 mile time or somthing... or some HP figures

Travis

[bobafett]

how safe is 6-8 bolt on psi on a stock engine? seems good to me...

oooh if you get better than 14's at the track with 6-8psi that would rock... :) goooo a20a3!

travis why WOULD u go civic anyway?

[dXsquared]

i would go civic cause:
1. lighter
2 lots more aftermarket
3 i dont care about being different, i just know i want to be FAST
4 civics are nicer looking
5 fuel injection
6 my accord is beat so i needed a new acr and accords didnt have turbo kits when i made the civic decision
7 i have wanted a 1991 Civic for sooo long...the style is just want i love


now if this turbo kit will make 14 second runs at 8 PSI and we can go higher with water injection, then im in... ill buy a low miles LXi hatch from the states... maybe even a sedan...slammed on 18's runnin 12 PSI with water and CO2 injection

Travis

[2old_honda]

Sean, I sent you a email. I forgot to ask, will the manifold have a mount for an external wastegate? Or are you using the turbo's internal gate?

[BootMachine]

If you made a turbo KIT for the A20 engine I would buy it for sure. I have a A20 Prelude SI engine PGM-FI and it needs a turbo!

I cant find a kit anywhere and custom made manifolds are expensive. Take my e-mail addi down and let me know when you have kits available. I'll buy one!

[89AccordLvr]

this kit is for fuel injection too includin and the ecm also is for fuel injection

[dXsquared]

Originally posted by 89AccordLvr
this kit is for fuel injection too includin and the ecm also is for fuel injection


what?????????????

travis

[bobafett]

yes, the turbo kit is meant for fuel injected cars, and yes the ECM is meant for fuel injected cars.

[AccordEpicenter]

im in the phase of savin up for somthing like this... im gettin another car so i can do TONS of work to the accord at once.... Ive heard that the head on the a20 is pretty inefficient, so N/A power (as most of us know) is really tough to come by, but with forced induction (ie, turbo) it makes the head flow like a mofo (read: BIG POWER GAINS) and the engine is pretty tough as is (except for pistons)... as for running 15-20 psi on an otherwise stock engine, dont expect it to last if you drive it around much like that, but 6-8 psi is very reliable.

[Sean]

im headed to milan drag way tommorow night for test and tune. ill post times when i get home. weather permiting

[88' Accord Ltd]

Man, reading all this puts a HUGE smile on my face! I can't wait until these kits are available, I've been saving up for a few month already lol! :D

[Sean]

im gonna try to run it again tommorow night. fucking clutch melted down on the way to the track and welded itself togerther. either that or a spring broke out of the clutch hub and jammed the clutch so i couldnt release it. BTW turbos and stock cluthes dont mix. just a i warned you sort of thing. better figure on getting the ram power puck 6 puck its $249 at summit and in stock.

[Justin86]

Sounds pretty cool Sean. I might join the banwagon, but I'm saying up $$$ for my B18C beast. So far I have enough for the motor, tranny, ECU. God damn firefighting is sweet. I just got paid $880 for 11 days of work. That is after I lost about $320 to taxes. Afhter a month that shit adds up quick. :D

[2old_honda]

Originally posted by Sean
im gonna try to run it again tommorow night. fucking clutch melted down on the way to the track and welded itself togerther. either that or a spring broke out of the clutch hub and jammed the clutch so i couldnt release it. BTW turbos and stock cluthes dont mix. just a i warned you sort of thing. better figure on getting the ram power puck 6 puck its $249 at summit and in stock.

Does ram make clutches for the accord? Or are you using one from a different car?

[Sean]

no its ready made for the accord. heres the ram p# 98630

[2old_honda]

cool, I didnt know they made clutches for the accord.
I went to their web site http://www.ramclutches.com and checked it out. From the part number you gave me here is what they say about it:
USE POWERGRIP CLUTCHES IF:
*The vehicle is street driven with minor modifications
*The stock clutch is inadequate
Slicks or Racing tires will NOT be used

POWERGRIP HD CLUTCHES

RAM Powergrip clutches are a heavy duty upgrade for street use and an option for increased service life in commercial applications. These sets feature composite organic, metallic, and kevlar friction materials matched for the specific application to allow retention of OEM pressure plates where necessary and compatibility with OEM release systems. Each set includes an OEM or better pressure plate, Powergrip disc, release bearing, and alignment tool. Because the Powergrip disc provides increased holding power by using a higher coefficient of friction material, some chatter may occur. Powergrip clutches are covered by a 1 year/12,000 mile limited warranty in stock passenger cars and a 90 day warranty when installed in off-road or commercial vehicles.*


Will that be enough clutch to hold the power?

[ryan88lxi]

would 6 to 8 psi be safe to run on a stock a20 bottom end? and what are theprice estimates anyway

[Sean]

6-8 psi is safe as long as a few conditions are met. premium fuel is used. the engine is mechanically sound.

as for the clutch according to RAM its rated conservatively at 250hp. im not sure how much TQ they had in mind but im sure itll do that job.i have one sitting that was in my last turbo accord but i figured the stock one might hold up. i was wrong. anyways i should have it in tommorow afternoon so i migth be able to swing a pass at the track if im lucky. oh BTW it did chatter but if you kept the revs up while taking off its wasnt very noticeable.


pricing for the turbo kits its dependant on the number of people interested in them.the bigger the order the lowering the pricing.

[AccordEpicenter]

what about ACT stage 2? Thats what i was thinking about getting... OR maybe stage 3

[hondamanlxi]

man i WOULD BE on this like flies on sh*t BUT.........
1) carbed
2) working a bodykit!

[2old_honda]

Originally posted by hondamanlxi
man i WOULD BE on this like flies on sh*t BUT.........
1) carbed
2) working a bodykit!

so then

1. Get sean's GM ECM conversion.
2. Screw the body kit.

[1989 DX R]

Hmm, if I knew a big number that would include everything a stock DX would need, I'd like it better.

[Sean]

Originally posted by 1989 DX R
Hmm, if I knew a big number that would include everything a stock DX would need, I'd like it better.

then email me

[MoonScryer]

OK, new daylight pics. Might have to skip ahead in the thread to read up on these, but you can see the 2.5" mandrel exhaust and where the turbo sits - yes the engine mount has been replaced in the front. The turbo manifold will NOT look that rough when production begins, that is just a beta/rough-in.



http://www.moonscryer.org/accord/sean/turbo3/turbo01.jpg

http://www.moonscryer.org/accord/sean/turbo3/turbo02.jpg

http://www.moonscryer.org/accord/sean/turbo3/turbo03.jpg

http://www.moonscryer.org/accord/sean/turbo3/turbo04.jpg

http://www.moonscryer.org/accord/sean/turbo3/turbo05.jpg

[Sean]

runs 13.6-14.1 with no problem. think about it. ill be kitting this stuff up really soon.

[Hash_man_Se_i]

Nice, but how much did it cost you? I have been debating whether a swap or turboing the stock engine will be better. I will be doing one of these next year most likely.

[MIK3]

Nice man. But I cannot stand to look at those pictures any more. The blurryness is casting a burden of annoyingness upon my eyes.

[Sean]

ill be selling kits to do everything you see there. start really looking at that setup l;ike where the plug wires go etc.

[guaynabo89]

You using anything to cool down the charge air yet?

What do you think of an air to water intercooler?

I've never wanted to put a front mount air to air intercooler because it would really look lke crap on a 87 style bumper.

[88' Accord Ltd]

I was trying to invision what you cars engine bay would look like before Sean and I really had no clue, its all clear now......except for the blurriness. But I can still tell where everything is. I really like the fact that you don't have to relocate the battery. BTW the ECM setup looks clean with the DIS.

[Sean]

no charg air cooling yet but water injection is the onyl way to go with the limited space in there. full run down

My ecm kit with DIS

my own t manifold internally its got anti reversion baffling. custom mandrel 2.5 inch exhuast

turbo specs

chrysler t03 garret ( unique flange) .42 comparessor .48 a/r turbine.

running 6 psi of boost.

27pph injectors.
no intercooler and running 13.6 in the quarter ( at least thats what its supposed to run)

stock motor with 168k on clock. 1 month of testing and tunning. fix all the short comming of the stock accord.

im running a ram PG 6 puck 98630 clutch due to the stock clutch breaking into small parts.

anyways that enough for today i hope the better pics really highlight everything going on there.

[A20A1]

It runs okay with the stock regulator?

[Sean]

It runs okay with the stock regulator?

yes i forgto to mention the fact that im using a $50 fuel pump from autozone. the 86-92 camaro TPI 5.7l v8 fuel pump supports 400hp. nice and cheap it does fit the stock hange but youll have to play match the fuel sock.

[2old_honda]

wait a second. you are only running 6lbs? it is that fast at only 6lbs? :eek:

[Sean]

6-8 dpeends on my mood. im actualy taking advanatge of the boost and letting the motor rev. it really has one hell of a top end pull.

[88' Accord Ltd]

Sean what are you using to control how much boost you're running?

[Sean]

facotory t3 wastegate. i ran the tnesion down on teh srping but its set to deliver 8 psi stock.