New engine/tranny... Buildup begins!

[AccordEpicenter]

ok im getting an 89 lxi engine and tranny from a friend as soon as he pulls it. This is the plan... Run diamond forged pistons possibly .030 overbore, possibly new bearings (rod bearings prolly, mains last a long time), shotpeened stock rods (stock honda rods are nice n' strong, at least a and b series) and maybe balancing the bottom end. Thats it... Any other ideas i should think of? Also getting a new oil pump/water pump and timing belt and gaskets. Oh yea this is gonna be the turbo motor

[Justin86]

Might as well get forged rods since you will being tearing into that and some head work

[Sabz5150]

Balance that bottom end!!! It's cheap and you'll thank yourself a hundred times over.

[Robs89LXi]

What exactly is balancing, and how much is cheap?

[AccordEpicenter]

balancing is one thing im considering. Forged rods are great, but the stock rods should be up to the task of just about anything i throw at em power wise, as long as I dont overrev it. I dont plan on going over 7k because if i did id have to upgrade valvetrain parts to keep it out of valve float for sure, and this engine will have more than enough power so revving the piss out of it is not nessesceary

[Sean]

Well contact me about it. i get fantastic deals on machine work and diamond piston is 45 minutes from my house. so if they screw up the order or something its no big deal.

[smufguy]

What exactly is balancing, and how much is cheap?

The first considerations of balancing your Performance or Racing Engine is that of Horsepower and Longevity. Any automotive or marine engine spins at enough RPM (revolutions per minute) to cause damage to bearings, moving parts and cylinder walls if the engine's reciprocating assembly is not balanced correctly.

Just about everyone has had a car or bicycle with a wheel out of balance. The resulting feeling is often vibration, shimmies, and lack of complete control. Imagine this feeling, now partially hidden within the confines of your engine. In many instances (extreme out of balance) you will see or feel the engine vibrations. But most cases of engine unbalance go unnoticed. These unseen or unfelt errors in the engine's assembly is quickly causing it's demise

Balancing your engine helps:

Save on Fuel
Reduces Friction (heat)
Increase Longevity
Increase Horsepower
More Consistency
Smoother Operation
Lower Chance of Fluid Leaks
Lessens Component Failure

want more info on Engine Balancing. check this >>> http://www.centuryperformance.com/balancing.asp

[AccordEpicenter]

i want to increase longevity by balancing

['A20A3']

Ohhh crap...is this why my car is so 'shaky' and vibrates too much at idle...or maybe it's because i have fuel management problems..not to metion a loose firewall brace to the intake manifold and i need a upper transmission rubber-grommet thing...wait a second, did i just answer my own question...

[Sabz5150]

The first considerations of balancing your Performance or Racing Engine is that of Horsepower and Longevity. Any automotive or marine engine spins at enough RPM (revolutions per minute) to cause damage to bearings, moving parts and cylinder walls if the engine's reciprocating assembly is not balanced correctly.

Just about everyone has had a car or bicycle with a wheel out of balance. The resulting feeling is often vibration, shimmies, and lack of complete control. Imagine this feeling, now partially hidden within the confines of your engine. In many instances (extreme out of balance) you will see or feel the engine vibrations. But most cases of engine unbalance go unnoticed. These unseen or unfelt errors in the engine's assembly is quickly causing it's demise

Balancing your engine helps:

Save on Fuel
Reduces Friction (heat)
Increase Longevity
Increase Horsepower
More Consistency
Smoother Operation
Lower Chance of Fluid Leaks
Lessens Component Failure

want more info on Engine Balancing. check this >>> http://www.centuryperformance.com/balancing.asp

Isn't this worth the 150 or so dollars? :cool2:

['A20A3']

In order to balance the engine it has to be disassembled right??? Wouldn't that cost a little bit more than $150???

[Sabz5150]

In order to balance the engine it has to be disassembled right??? Wouldn't that cost a little bit more than $150???

Basically you have to give the shop the crank, rods, pistons, and all the goodies that connect them together. If you can disassemble the engine yourself, then you're saving cash. Either that or score a boneyard crank if you're going with aftermarket rods and pistons.

['A20A3']

Thanks Sabz for clearing that up for me. I guess $150 isn't bad then...

[smufguy]

you can also have the shop disassemble it for you, rebuild ur engine and balance the parts and reassemble it for you to the specs for around $500-$800 depending on work. BUt who knows, prices always change.

[AccordEpicenter]

this stuff aint cheap, but im getting the new (well, used engine and tranny) dropped off at my house probably on monday. Ive heard it run and it was pretty cheap ($150, engine/trans) so i hope i can use it as a core, I bet it will be pretty obvious on the dissassembly if the bottom end is completely trashed or not. Hopefully all i will need done is new pistons/rods (bored out .020 or .030), oil pump, bearings, gaskets etc, and balancing. This should be one hell of an indestructable engine, even when ran on stock rods, but i might splurge on eagle H beams... Just for the peace of mind folks. Engine internals arent a good thing to skimp on. Now as soon as i set that stuff up i have to think about head work... I was thinking of running a low milage stock heard, but i was thinkin, ive seen alot of turbo cars lately running 272 cams, so im thinkin moderate turbo grind cam with b16a intake mani and mild porting... your input?

[smufguy]

this stuff aint cheap, but im getting the new (well, used engine and tranny) dropped off at my house probably on monday. Ive heard it run and it was pretty cheap ($150, engine/trans) so i hope i can use it as a core, I bet it will be pretty obvious on the dissassembly if the bottom end is completely trashed or not. Hopefully all i will need done is new pistons/rods (bored out .020 or .030), oil pump, bearings, gaskets etc, and balancing. This should be one hell of an indestructable engine, even when ran on stock rods, but i might splurge on eagle H beams... Just for the peace of mind folks. Engine internals arent a good thing to skimp on. Now as soon as i set that stuff up i have to think about head work... I was thinking of running a low milage stock heard, but i was thinkin, ive seen alot of turbo cars lately running 272 cams, so im thinkin moderate turbo grind cam with b16a intake mani and mild porting... your input?

My input is this. If it all works out IT WILL BE ONE MOFO FAST CAR. and one bulletproof monster engine. :cheers:

[Justin86]

it is all worth it on a engine build up. I know you want to try to save money on stuff nut when it comes to the engine and drive train you don't want to skimp out on anything, only the best stuff.

[AccordEpicenter]

ok i got it tonight, so far it looks very clean and well taken care of. I remember this is the engine that my friend had that when he did his oil pan (new pan) he had little metal flakes in the pan, im thinkin that because he had let it sit a few months that the oil turned slightly acidic and started to eat away at the bearings. I dont know yet, i havent had it apart. I have heard it run, and it ran very smooth, no knocking etc. I dont care if the bearings are good, i just hope they didnt eat away at the crank... We will see

[AccordEpicenter]

so far this engine is very clean from the inside and the cylinders are in good condition and have the slightest of slight wear ridge, so thats hopeful. Im gonna pull the mains and probably rod caps and check the bearing clearances next, but i might have to move it inside its way way too cold out.. my readings will be affected, its about -5 here now, very cold.

[Justin86]

Man don't you just love that weather. Once I get the shop cleaned up I will start tearing apart my extra engine and start looking to build it up.

[BootMachine]

I dissagree with the balancing and boring. The stock crank is balanced pretty well from the factory. You can see the bore holes in the counter weights where it was balanced before. For 6000 RPM IMO balancing the A20 is not necessary. If you engine vibrates at idle there is something wrong with it other than a crank out of balance. Possible un-even compression or crappy combustion!

If you are installing aftermarket rods / pistons....I would suggest balancing!

Boring the engine wont get you very much of a HP gain. At least not in the A20. Maybe just run a little more boost and save the money you would have spent on boring for something elce.

Of course if the cyls are out of round you will need to bore!

[AccordEpicenter]

im not boring because of the hp gain, im boring to start with a fresh cylinder. Worn stock cyls + aftermarket pistons+ boost = oil consumption lost power etc...

[A20Accord]

im not boring because of the hp gain, im boring to start with a fresh cylinder. Worn stock cyls + aftermarket pistons+ boost = oil consumption lost power etc...

I always thought ..
Bore = To make Bigger
Hone = to straigthen worn or dameged cylinders.

[AccordEpicenter]

http://members.localnet.com/~jess/flywheel.jpg http://members.localnet.com/~jess/engine.jpg Thats my project engine soo far and my aasco flywheel... i might get a pic of my big ass clutch when it comes... peace out :cool2:

[smufguy]

thats a darn good looking motor for a 14 year old block. Lucky you.

[Justin86]

Damn my extra is covered in about a ton of oil and every kind of crap possible.

[AccordEpicenter]

oil is good, it keeps things from rusting. That block is sprayed down with W40 to keep the bores from getting rusty when its sitting. Remember, WD-40 was developed as a corrosion inhibitor for the aerospace industry, not primarily as a lubricant. For a penetrating lubricant PBlaster kicks royal ass. I also got my spec stage v clutch in today, its a 3 puck solid hub race clutch, they claim will hold 414 lb ft. The pucks are iron friction matieral im sure its gonna eat the hell out of my flywheel but as you can see it has a replaceable friction surface too so...

[Morpheus]

You should get the top of the block honed. Clean it up real good too. What tranny are you using? Accord or Teg one?

[AccordEpicenter]

accord... for now... I have a spare LXI tranny so idk yet

[Justin86]

accord... for now... I have a spare LXI tranny so idk yet

shit I have 3 extra and I need to get rid of the damn things. :deal:

[AccordEpicenter]

im still trying to figure out engine managemant... its either gonna be a sean setup or stand alone... like a Haltech E6X or something

[RobT5580]

That clutch is going to be harsh on engaugement but will hold the power. Im staying away from that kind of clutch cause i dont want to kill my B20A transmission. If you ever come to CT and want a extra block i have one but its been sitting for a few years.

[AccordEpicenter]

harsh engagement is right... im thinkin its gonna engage with alot of chatter and be generally unfriendly, but the next step down was a 6 or 4 puck unsprung but the max torque was only 260lb-ft, a far cry from the 414 this clutch is claimed to hold but we will see. If i can get the hang of driving it i should be ok, but then theres longevity.. who knows

[AccordEpicenter]

btw rob what are u using for managemant? Ive seen your setup on HMT... looks alot like what i had planned

[RobT5580]

At the moment im planning on just getting the AEM EMS right off the start. Before i wanted to get the car going with a SAFC but why waste more money when i can get the EMS for a fairly good price considering how much a true stand alone costs. Plus i can easily convert back to stock if need be. Im looking at a ACT clutch and i think it is rated at 310 and it retains the springs so it wont be that harsh engauging. I think your going to kill a lot of transmissions i know Justin went through a few when he had his going. That is my main reason why im staying away from them plus im getting a LSD to help out with traction.

[Gregg86DX]

Another thing I have heard is that a lightened flywheel wheel will reduce the stress on your tranny. This seems logical since the inertia of a heavy flywheel can transfer a huge amount of momentary force into the tranny. This is the main reason I'll be looking for one on my B20A buildup.

[smufguy]

rotational inertia does not have anything to do with the stress on the tranny. Besides, the lightened flywheel reduces rotational moment of inertia thereby reducing the force or torque you could say needed to spin the flywheel.

Changing the flywheel to a lightened one is to make the engine rev up smoothly and quickly. Easy to visualize when u compare the force needed to rotate a 35lbs flywheel compared to a 10lb one.

[AccordEpicenter]

well yea the lightened flywheel is less stress on engine/tranny but makes it harder to drive. Rob, how much are AEM computers and can you get one for our cars? From what i know youd have to adapt one to get it to work, but that might not be that bad. The Haltech ones like the E6X (similar to E6k) are about $1250... I was thinking about running an AFC also but also want to get the car up as soon as possible with good managemant for high boost.

[AccordEpicenter]

smurf the heavier flywheel exerts more torque on the transmission due to the shock of the clutch engaging, and all that weight with such a violent clutch can spell disaster, so its a little insurance.

[RobT5580]

Greg they do make a flywheel for the B20A5 the 88-89 from Fidanza. And pretty much it is cleared up that the 88-89 is the proper one for the B20A as the 90-91 B20A5 has a larger diameter so thats why Mike Lee had clearence problems.

And for the EMS i think they run around $1300 or so havnt looked into it much cause i know that is the base price that i have seen. I would be running a OBD-1 ECU with a OBD-0 to OBD-1 conversion harness. It has been done a lot from guys with CRX'S and Civics so it wont be a big deal for me. One good thing i found out is the B20A distributor has 24 teeth the same as OBD-1 cars as of the typical 16 tooth ones in OBD-0 applications. So that is one less thing i have to mess with. Also there is a place that will make a conversion harness for custom applications cause im sure some of the wiring will differ from the Civic/CRX. I figure the same thing why mess with the AFC when i could put that money into the EMS and just have it tuned on the dyno and be done with it as of wasting dyno time with the AFC. So that is my plan i still have a bit more to buy but the turbo setup is near complete. Sounds like you have your hands full as well i cant wait to get together in the summer cause the North East seems to have a lot of good stuff going on as far as swaps and what not.

[AccordEpicenter]

oh yea i agree. Im looking getting the car up and done as soon as possible... Its not quite a problem with the funds its more a problem of getting it so everything will work together without a problem, the computer is gonna take a bunch of time to install and tune... Manifolds are around but im making a custom one (equal length), and custom charge/exaust pipes are gonna have to be job too. I saw your post on HMT about stealth's oil kit (fits A20) so im gonna run one too. Im getting a 1g dsm bov for now too.

[AccordEpicenter]

also rob if you had a problem with the dizzy couldnt you just bolt in another b series dizzy?

[Gregg86DX]

rotational inertia does not have anything to do with the stress on the tranny.

You're thinking about acceleration, but it's the shifting that causes the problem.

When you drop the clutch or powershift, all the potential energy that is stored in that flywheel (and crank and rods and pistons, etc...) is quickly and violently transfered into the drivetrain. The heavier the flywheel, the more potential energy you have and the more stress being transfered into the drivetrain.

[RobT5580]

Yeah his kit will work no broblem i put it all on mine the feed line was a little tight but i worked it out so i got a little slack out of it. The drain will work fine as well my turbo is slanting down more so im trying to make if flow as direct as possible but the braided line is tough. I ordered an extra turbo drain flange and im going to weld that to my oil pan so i dont have to worry about any leaks.

As far as the dizzy goes a lot of the guys just use a 16 tooth one and there is a program in the AEM forum to download so the EMS will operate it. But i believe its all set up for the 24 tooth one which the JDM B20A is surprisingly. I didnt notice that till the other day cause another member was going to buy it from me but i want to keep things as simple as possible and i know this one fits no problem.

[smufguy]

You're thinking about acceleration, but it's the shifting that causes the problem.

When you drop the clutch or powershift, all the potential energy that is stored in that flywheel (and crank and rods and pistons, etc...) is quickly and violently transfered into the drivetrain. The heavier the flywheel, the more potential energy you have and the more stress being transfered into the drivetrain.

But you also know that its hard to spin up an iron flywheel (Heavier one) compared to the Aluminum one. So i dont see the physics behind the heavier flywheel putting a lot more strain on the transmission compared to the lighter one.

MY understanding is that if the flywheel is lighter its much easier to rotate it. So when u dump the clutch from any higher rpms, say 3K, ur gonna be spinnging the flywheel much faster than the Heavier flywheel. So this means that u transfer the engine rotation much faster to the tranny via a aluminum flywheel rather than an Iron one.

This is my understanding. :cool2: