Which Swap Is Beter????

[Lok]

HI GUYS
I am the new member on 3geez, and I am from GREECE.
FIRST of all SORRY for my BAD ENGLISH.
SECOND THANK YOU EVERYBODY FOR THE INFORMATIONS ABOUT THE
TUNING OF ACCORD 3G, HERE THERE ARE TONS OF INFORMATION ABOUT
THIS FANTASTIC CAR....................YOU ARE THE BEST AND I NEVER
FIND ON WEB, SITE LIKE 3GEEZ, WITH SO MANY INFORMATION ABOUT
THE TUNING OF A SPECIFIC MODEL....................
AT THE MOMENT I am on UK for studing, but back to Greece I have one
Accord EX 1.6 EUROPEAN SPEC 1987mod. My car has the A16 engine
SOHC-12v with one 20/26 Keihin , Has 88Hp/6000rpm and 12.4Kg.m/3500rpm,
0-100Km at 11.9sec and max speed 175Km( aproximately 110miles) per hour.
AS you see is the slowest of the ACCORD 3G, and when I finish with the
university (in about 3GEARS) I am planing a major swap.
MY QUESTION IS WHICH SWAP IS BETER ON MINE CASE?????????????

I READ all your post about A20A3 TURBO, B20 , AND THE NEW B SERIES
ENGINES WITH PLACE RACING KIT.
I AM PLANING to PASS THE 300Hp BARIER .
WHAT I UNDERSTAND FROM YOUR POST is that first I must convert my
car to EFI spec ( that is ease for me because i could find all the EFI staff
(fuel lines, fuel tank, etc) from a scraper here on UK).
The A20 engine has very strong block because is cast iron and close deck
so you could pass the 300hp with a good TURBO KIT ( SEAN HAS 225Hp
WITHOUT INTERCOOLER AND JUST 8PSI BOOST ( 0.6BAR)) AND ABOUT
1-1.2 BAR ( 14-18PSI) BOOST AND STOCK INTERNALS. OR YOU CAN RUN
OVER 1.2 BAR AND PUT FROGED PISTONS AND RODS.
SO VERY GOOD ENGINE THE A20 FOR OVER 300Hp.........

THE B20 is a very rare engine and is all aluminium ( I DONT KNOW IF IS OPEN
DECK OR CLOSE???????) so not very good for TURBO. The good point is that
you could find froged pistons on 81mm ( FROM A TURBO B16-18) and H23
rods so you could again pass 1BAR ( 14.5PSI) and 300Hp. THE OTHER BUT
POINT WITH B20 IS THE 95mm STROKE.............

BOTH A20 and B20 are good for NITROUS OXIDE APLICATION WITH SOME
MODIFICATIONS.............( LIGHT CRANK etc...)

THE LAST POSSIBLE SWAP IS THE NEW B SERIES WITH PLACE RACING KIT..

SO I want to ask which is the best swap for my case??????????????
I could find the b20-A20 engines here on UK + WIRING HARNESSES AND
ALL THE STAFF BUT back on GREECE there are no spares parts even for A20 and B20. The Honda dealer on Greece has only spares for the A16, so what
happens if something brake???????? I have read all your post about how
much difficult is to find spares for B20( especialy) and A20 too, on U.S.A
so in Greece the problem will be much more BAD...........................
THE OTHER PROBLEM WHICH EXIST FOR A20-B20 ENGINES, AS I UNDERSTAND
FROM YOUR POST, ARE THAT THE STOCK TRANSMISION COULD NOT HANDLE
OVER 250Hp....................OVER THIS LEVEL THE GEAR BOX BROKES AND
AN AFTERMARKET TRANSMISION ( GEAR BOX- DIFERENTIAL-AXLES) WILL
COST THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS............ ( SO NO DIFFERENCE ON COST
FROM A SWAP OF A NEW B SERIES ENGINES WITH PLACE RACING KIT).

IN GREECE THERE ARE A LOT OF TUNERS AND PERFORMANCE COMPANYS
BUT NOBODY CARE ABOUT ACCORD 3G. THEY TUNE FORD SIERRA and
ESCORT COSWORTH, SEAT LEON 20VT and CUPRA, SAXO VTS and RALLYE,
BMW M POWER 3 and 5, MERCEDES COMPRESSOR AMG, GOLF GTI, SUBARU
IMPRESSA- MITSUBITSI EVO, 5 GT TURBO, CIVIC/CRX VTEC, S2000 and CIVIC TYPE R etc,etc,etc BUT NO ACCORD 3G.....................................
............
I spoke with one tuner from CYPRUS last month and he told me that he
will do the job if I get all the PLACE RACING AND EFI STAFF. He told me
that the BEST ENGINE for our cars are B20B from CRV ( 8.8 :1 compression
ratio, 84mm bore and 89mm stroke) with B16 head ( EVEN WITH DEACTIVE
VTEC MECHANISM IS THE BEST HEAD BECAUSE OF BETER AIR FLOW THAN
THE NON VTEC HEADS, HE TOLD ME), 65mm THROTLE BODY, V-AFC ECU,
BLOCK GUARD, APR BOLTS, EVERYTHING STOCK ON BLOCK ( RODS-PISTONS
CRANK,etc) , STOCK HEAD GASKET ( RETAIN 8.8 : 1 compression), AEM
FUEL RAIL REGULATOR, BOCH FUEL PUMP ( 260Lt/Hr), AEM CAM GEARS AND
MUGEN ENGINE BELT, P.P HEAD, HKS IRIDIUM SPARK PLUGS, HKS AIR FILTER AND HKS GT 2840 TURBO KIT WITH DOWNPIPE-CUSTOM MADE EXAUST - INTERCOOLER AND OIL COOLER............. AND OVER 450 HP at only 1BAR............He told me that the transmission of the new b series engine is very strong even for 600hp+ and only the cluts disk and plate will change with one stronger......................He told me also that he could make custom made disks ( he has CNC machine) and find suspession kit for ACCORD 3G.
HE is maybe the best HONDA tuner on EUROPE (JAPAN TOP FUEL DEALER
ON EUROPE) and he runs 10.80 the 1/4mile on Greek dragster ( 228Km/h)
with his TOPFUEL B16 CIVIC ( 600Hp). Is the only person who wants to help
me do the swap........

SO I THING ABOUT PLACE RACING SOLUTION , BUT FIRST I WANT YOUR HELP
WHAT YOU THING IS BETER??????????????
A20 TURBO OR N2O WITH THE PROBLEM OF SPARES AND TRANSMISION
B20 TURBO OR N20 WITH VERY DIFFICULT SEARCH FOR SPARES AND
TRANSMISSION PROBLEMS??????????????????
OR PLACE RACING KIT WITH ONE OF NEW B SERIES ENGINE TURBO AND HUGE
AFTERMARKET SUPORT???????????????????

THANKS A LOT
WITH RESPECT

[shepherd79]

good goly man, can you write a little less.
you don't have to do a lot of EFI conversion.
talk to sean.
he can hook you up with GM EFI conversion.
it is safe and it is a lot easy to do.
you can use A20 EFI parts, such as intake manifold and you will have to add one extra fuel line.
i would say stay with your engine, be unique. make A16 scream with Sean's turbo kit.

[Dibbs]

Welcome to 3Geez! Hope you enjoy your time here.

To answer your question, it all really depends on how much money you are willing to spend.

The easiest and cheapest swap for you is the B20A. It's much easier for you to get a B20A in Europe than here in the US. There are some members from finland on this board that have the B20A in their cars. You might want to talk to "Foobari" and "The Great Dane" about obtaining this engine. It has 160 HP and needs no custom parts to install. The one problem with this swap in your case is that you will have to convert to fuel injection, that is unless you want to get the carburated version of the B20A and put dual weber carburators on it. That would make for some good power.

If you have the money to spend, get an A20A and purchase the complete Turbo Setup from Sean along with his custom ECM so you do not have to convert to EFI. I don't know what the availability of that engine is in Europe but if you can afford it. This would bee your best bet at reaching your HP goal.

[Dibbs]

i would say stay with your engine, be unique. make A16 scream with Sean's turbo kit.

Damn dude, I completely forgot about that! Good call! He could also use A18 or A20 rods to increase his displacement to 1.8L, then he could use Sean's turbo setup just like it was an A20.

[Justin86]

Damn dude, I completely forgot about that! Good call! He could also use A18 or A20 rods to increase his displacement to 1.8L, then he could use Sean's turbo setup just like it was an A20.
Sounds like a plan or getting a JDM B20. :cheers:

[shepherd79]

Euro B20A won't make 160hp stock. it is only 137hp, but JDM B20A will make 160hp.

[k-roy]

Ok LOK be glad you are Greek, because if you were not I would tell you to take a hike.

So you want 300HP eh?

I say skip the B20A (older). From what I have seen it does not have very good aftermarket support, but I could be wrong. The A engine sounds like not a good decision either because you said the A16 is the most common where you are.

I know Sean is not going to like this but you have a few more things to consider than us Americans. The B20B or B20Z (both CRV)is a better choice foy you due to its availibility. Over here you can get one for $800. Then you have to get an integra transmission. You can gets parts the easiest where you are. I found a site with decent prices in US dollars for the place racing kit. http://www.fullthrottlenyc.com/mount_kits/place_racing_mk.shtml.
A few more things to consider with the B20Z. You will need to convert the electronics to OBD1. Stock it uses OBD2 witch is not too friendly for aftermarket suppport. Plus the CRV intake manifold will not fit under the hood in our cars.
Here is what you will need in US doillars, sorry I don't know the Drachma or Euro Conversion rate. Try xe.com its pretty good for that.

B20B or B20Z $800
Integra Transmission $400
Clutch/Flywheel ???? Depends on what you want.
PRI Swap Kit $1000
OBD1 ECU $80
Wiring harness (custom) ???
startor (integra) $50
distributor (part of switching to OBD1) $200
Injectors (part of switching to OBD1) $300
Intake manifold (The integra one will fit) $200
Convert your fuel system to Fi $200 and a lot of spares
Air Intake and Header $400
So lets see that is $3,600 so far...
This is just to get all the parts to make the car run. Now you can look into performance parts like headwork, cams, throttle bodies, ignition, etc...

A few things to consider before a turbo...
The CRV motor is open deck, meaning you will need a deckplate and possibly new cylinder sleeves to strengthen it. The rods and pistons will need replaced unless you want them to shatter under boost. Thats another $800 right there. Then a balanced or even an aftermarket crankshaft. Another weakness of this motor is the head. You will need a port, polish, cc'd combustion chaimbers, valves, cams, valve guides, valve seats, springs, retainers, etc.. I could spend $2,000 on a head for a Honda no problem.
You will need to deal with the head and open deck or you will just kill this motor easily. I have a friend who works for a Honda Dealer and he said he has seen a few CRVs that have died because of the weak head, or the cylinders did some walking around. As for a turbo get a kit for a b series, you can get an all in one package. Berore you do anything you will need to get new brakes. Get the brakes from a 3G with a B20A, they have duel piston calipers in the front. Then upgrade the rotors, pads and lines. Then there is the suspension. Coilovers, sway bars, rims and tires are a must. Remember power is NOTHING without control.

Here are a couple of links to help you out.
Howto Convert to PGMFI (http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=112)
B-series engine in my 3rd Gen FAQ (http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=90)

I hope you have connections with the Onassis family, bacause you sound like you are aiming for a car Zeus himself would be proud to drive.

One final note. Emissions. Check with your laws concerning them. You don't want to build a car you can not drive on the street do you? Luckily my faher was with the American government when we lived in Athens. We had diplomatic plates on our Ford Torieno. It had a massive engine and we did not have to worry about the emission laws. Lucky Us. One of my few memories from back then was my dad street racing a BMW and kicking its ass.

[Lok]

OK THANKS GUYS FOR YOUR INFORMATION
IS difficult for me to swap a A20 or B20 engine because in GREECE the
availability of spare parts for these engines is ZERO.
The Honda dealer in GREECE never imported the 2.0L ACCORDS 3G , but
only the 1.6L.
I dont think that the stock gear box of A20 and B20A engines could hold
more than 250Hp.
THE TURBO KIT OF SEAN IS FANTASTIC ESPECIALY IF HE PUT AND ONE
INTERCOOLER........AND IS ALSO THE CHEAPEST WAY TO IMPROVE YOUR ACCORD PERFORMANCE, BUT EVEN IF SEAN SEND ME THE KIT I DONT THINK
THAT ANY GREEK ENGINEER WOULD LIKE TO INSTAL IT ON MY CAR.........
THROUGH THERE IS NO KNOWLEDGE ABOUT TUNNING A16-A20.
ALSO I DONT THINK THAT IS EASY TO FIND A COMPANY TO MAKE A VERY STRONG AFTERMARKET TRANSMISSION TO REACH 300Hp WITH NO PROBLEMS
(A20-B20A).
KROY I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU VERY VERY VERY MUCH ABOUT ALL YOUR
HELP.............ESPECIALY FOR PLACE RACING PRICES RESEARCH.
I THINK that finaly the only reliable solution to reach 300hp on my situation
is a new b series engine and the place racing kit.
KROY I am not rich man, in Greece one new family car of 1.6L cost more
than 20.000 EYROS or about $25.000. For example one new HONDA CIVIC
1.6L COST ABOUT 21.000 EYROS . SO I THINK THAT IS MUCH BETER, WITH
THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY, TO REBUILD-IMPROVE MY OLD ACCORD AND BE
FASTER THAN EVERYTHING WHICH MOVES ON GREEK ROADS..........
MAYBE SOUNDS STUPID TO SPEND 25.000 DOLARS FOR 20YEARS OLD CAR
BUT I AM CRAZY ABOUT THE ACCORD 3G LIKE YOU AND I HEAT ALL THE NEW
CARS......................................
I BELIEVE THAT IF WE WANT TO HOLD OUR CARS FOR OTHER 20 YEARS,
ON COMBAT DUTY, THE ONLY SOLUTION IS A NEWER B SERIES ENGINE SWAP
( NO MATER IF IT WILL BE WITH PLACE RACING KIT OR WITH CUSTOM MADE AXLES-MOUNTS- E.T.C).
IN FEW YEARS EVEN ON U.S.A THE PROBLEM TO FIND SPARE PARTS FOR
A20-B20 WILL BE GREATER..................

MANY THANKS