Drifting !

[skull1441]

Our cars have front wheel drive but it dont mean we cant drift with them.... i do it all the time, i cant help it... if u havn't tried it, go try it right now !!! use E-brake ... its kinda dangerious tho so be careful.... :cool2:

doing it on wet street is not recommended !! :beat:

[Dustin Imports]

Ill stick to RWD dank'ya'berry much.

Autos are shit? lol. :bandit:

drifting fwd and autos are shit. :rolleyes:

[Mike's89AccordLX]

Yeah I do it in the snow so it won't ruin my ebrake. And when I drive my Prelude (94 Si) it fishtails on its own b/c the back end is so light. My friends didn't believe me and they saw I wasn't trying to fishtail and it was whipping the back end around corners. I love that car. I used the ebrake drift once on it b/c I actually needed to or I would hit a curb. It was another great drift moment that saved some damage.

In my accord I drifted for about 25-30 feet sideways around this turn and I made the turn perfect. I was like damn that was like right out of a rally race that I watch. My g/f was like you fu*ker don't you ever do sh*t like that with me in the car ever again!!!

[BMS]

You are not drifting. You are ass-dragging. There is a difference.

[Mike's89AccordLX]

You know what? Who gives a crap it's fun as hell. Thank you rain, for coming to our parade!

[soljaboy2000]

You are not drifting. You are ass-dragging. There is a difference.
lol ass-dragging

[johndej]

yeah, FWD drifting is nothing compaired to real drifting. hell yeah friends RX-7.

[k-roy]

Ill stick to RWD dank'ya'berry much.

Hell yea, a RWD V8 with a LSD is the way to drift.
FWD is just ass dragging.

[Bryan]

No all wheel drive is ass dragging.

[Mike's89AccordLX]

Guys I think everyone knows that FWD's ass drag. But for those of us that don't have the perfect drift car, we can use ebrakes to have fun.

[PhydeauX]

Set your suspension up right and you don't have to rely on the ebrake to get the ass to come around. 3gees, just like just about every other car on the road, are setup to under steer when things get too hot. Keeps grandma from wraping the car around a tree when she gets a little over zealous behind the wheel.

andy

[Blue Impact]

Go do a "drift" search on ebay...:D

[kidman2505]

U don't always have to use the E Brake to put the car into a drift. Theirs quite a few ways to get it done.
Clutch Kicking while loading your suspension works really great if your in your powerband. Did it today as a matter of fact.
Feinting is loading your suspension. You sway the opposite side then wheel towards the turn hard and mash gas or clutch kick it.
Choku Dori's which are like wild for FWD because after the first set of them wheel control tends to get super sketchy no matter who you are.

But like its been said, you can't knock it, its hella fun, if done right it works out just like a drift only shorter and most of them don't work into such an aggressive angle around the turn.

[A18A]

u can always try in reveres

[Deadhead]

well, reverse drifting would be a project... and damn near impossible.... ever try driving backwards and turning your wheel real hard? BAD idea, only do it if you want to roll your car.

Besides, our engines' don't put out enough power to burn out in reverse like you would do in drifting... only maybe in the snow.

My question, how would you correct the oversteer of drifting in reverse without being able to turn your rear wheels? It just doesn't work!

Drifting is fun, but if you don't know what your doing and pull the E-brake, you can really put some wear on your e-brake cable, and even possibly make it snap. Bottom link, E-brake = bad idea

LFB is the way to go, but much harder to master, i've got to get some practice in on that this winter when i find an empty parking lot.

[3G Jester]

actualy....dumbasses....

FWD drifting is the hardest of professional drifting. because it involves serious breaking techniques, suspension work and ebrake manipulation.
any tool can pull the ebrake and slide around a corner....especialy in the snow i do it all the time.....but pro FWD drifting is serious buisness.

[FyreDaug]

You could always go with some blizzaks up front and some all seasons in the back. Put the fronts to about 30psi and the rears at 40, and see what happens. :D

[EricW]

I did a little "Drifting" this week end at while autocrossing but not because i was trying to since it resulted in a spin twice and one of those to times i think i spun around at least one and a half times. But it is still fun when you can break trackion in the rear with out using the brakes or e-brake on a set of azenises. If you look close you can see all the rubber being thrown up in a cloud.
In the spin (http://www.knology.net/~ericrw/Pics/DSC04932.jpg)
Spin stoped (http://www.knology.net/~ericrw/Pics/DSC04933.jpg)
AutoX pic (http://www.knology.net/~ericrw/Pics/DSC04915.jpg)
Another AutoX pic (http://www.knology.net/~ericrw/Pics/DSC04934.jpg)

[speedpenguin]

actualy....dumbasses....

FWD drifting is the hardest of professional drifting. because it involves serious breaking techniques, suspension work and ebrake manipulation.
any tool can pull the ebrake and slide around a corner....especialy in the snow i do it all the time.....but pro FWD drifting is serious buisness.
thank you for actually having some knowledge about this business. a drift is a controlled slide that you can recover from without the car coming to a stop (or crashing) it doesn't matter what your drivetrain is.
i hear tons of snotty kids who think they're hot shit because they have a 240 or an 86 talk shit about front wheel drive. the fact of the matter is they don't have the skills to pull off an FF drift.
sorry, ranting. that's been bottled up for a while and it all came out at once :)

[b8er]

isnt there already a thread on drifting, im sure there is cause i think i posted in it, or mabye my posts just got removed from this one, aha

[Selfmindead]

You are not drifting. You are ass-dragging. There is a difference.

whats RWD then...Dick pushing?

[FyreDaug]

lol

Drifting is considered power sliding, your spinning the back tires to lose traction
Ass-dragging is when the back end gets pulled around.

Both of which are considered a drift, because ask yourself this "Is the car going in a straight line?" no its drifting around a corner.

drift ( P ) Pronunciation Key (drft)
v. drift·ed, drift·ing, drifts
v. intr.
To be carried along by currents of air or water: a balloon drifting eastward; as the wreckage drifted toward shore.
To proceed or move unhurriedly and smoothly: drifting among the party guests.
To move leisurely or sporadically from place to place, especially without purpose or regular employment: a day laborer, drifting from town to town.

To wander from a set course or point of attention; stray.
To vary from or oscillate randomly about a fixed setting, position, or mode of operation.
To be piled up in banks or heaps by the force of a current: snow drifting to five feet.


That kinda relates aswell, with FWD an unintentional drift would be straying away from your path

[Selfmindead]

This video reminded me of this topic...
http://videos.streetfire.net/Player.aspx?fileid=C71516C4-2596-432C-A230-E48935556436&p=0

[b8er]

ahh yes i knew it : http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=39323

[Illicit3rdgenRacer]

sorry FF'sust dont drift its lame and useless i got my 93 240sx fastback for that and ebrake is easy thats the 1st skill any RWD drifter learns b4 the ebrake becomes a thing of the past. FF drift is just lame e-braking and power sliding no real throttle control...throttle control= great drifts thats where the skill is envolved!!!

[A18A]

doughnuts in reverse is possible but not fun

[b8er]

ok i honestly think this had been discussed more then enough, call it what you want, ass draging or e-braking or dritfing or whatever it doesnt matter, you can get a FF car to "drift" or to get the back end to slid out, thats all your trying to do anyways, yes it is easier in a RWD car and i guess thats the " true way to drift " but it just doesnt matter, all i keep hearing is no its ass draging, no its drifting, no its ass draging, no get a 240, blah blah blah, sorry to rant like this but iv had enough

[speedpenguin]

i hear tons of snotty kids who think they're hot shit because they have a 240 or an 86 talk shit about front wheel drive.

sorry FF'sust dont drift its lame and useless i got my 93 240sx fastback for that and ebrake is easy thats the 1st skill any RWD drifter learns b4 the ebrake becomes a thing of the past. FF drift is just lame e-braking and power sliding no real throttle control...throttle control= great drifts thats where the skill is envolved!!!

ahem...
do i really need to add anything to this post?:lol:

[3G Jester]

doughnuts in reverse is possible but not fun

tray slides pwn.

[v3rs3]

I drive an AE86 for drifting and autocross and have an Accord for a winter beater/daily.

You can't drift with a front wheel drive car. Sure you can have fun and stuff, but if you go to a drift event or a contest people will just laugh at you.

Chigity check it.... www.ohiodrifting.com

[kidman2505]

I drive an AE86 for drifting and autocross and have an Accord for a winter beater/daily.
You can't drift with a front wheel drive car. Sure you can have fun and stuff, but if you go to a drift event or a contest people will just laugh at you.
Chigity check it.... www.ohiodrifting.com
I don't see people laughing at Kyle Arai and his EF civic, he's pro and his shit looks good out there.

[XBoom135]

Throw the ass end of what ya got and leave me to my blissful "ass dragging."

[b8er]

this thread just keeps going doesnt it

[speedpenguin]

I don't see people laughing at Kyle Arai and his EF civic, he's pro and his shit looks good out there.
don't forget keisuke hatakeyama.
yes people will laugh, but really, who cares? it doesn't mean they know what they're talking about
and yes this thread will keep going forever.

[Forgar_88]

Hey I dont care what ya call it, but ya gotta love working the close shift at a walmart and when ya get off work having the whole parking lot to play in!

[speedpenguin]

i guess that would be the one thing that would make up for having to work at walmart

[charlesb2003]

i accidentally drifted/ass-dragged/almost wrecked in my sedan once. i was on my way to work, running late as usual... and i took a corner at about 35mph... it was kinda fun.

[kidman2505]

Group of friends and I went out a few days ago before the snow started coming down here in michigan. Got our final jones for drifting in for the season lol. Snow is fun and all But there's nothing like hauling ass 50mph or more and laying the drift out on an empty bend in the road.
If you lay it all out in the right ways, it just gets gorgeous. You can feel the tires just break traction and spin freely. You keep your eyes on your exit and you never really notice how you were looking around the passenger side pillar to follow through, untill you sit here thinking about it.
Ass dragging, drifting, it doesn't matter, you were sideways and that's where it counts :deal:

[1320boy]

This video reminded me of this topic...
http://videos.streetfire.net/Player.aspx?fileid=C71516C4-2596-432C-A230-E48935556436&p=0

After reading alot of what most people said. I started thinking......
....So am i doing it wrong?
I dont use my E-brake too much only to counter steer into an opposing corner. I mainly use the "left foot brake" teq. and push all the weight to the front to losen the rear end stomp and feather the throttle. There is a little bit of a science to it as you saw in the video. But then again they are using the "E" alot too.

[HondaBoy]

ah, its more fun with RWD like in my datsun. that is until you break something.

[kidman2505]

I never use my Ebrake. Well once in a while but mostly its all about loading your suspension. Swaying one side then quickly to the other. Doing that along with being in your high powerband is a great way to start, keep the R's up and after you load up the suspension either slam down the gas or clutch kick it. Clutch kicking is where you drive normally. Keep your foot on the accelerator and you push in with the clutch then let off quickly so that it yanks the car. It'll give it a really good shove, this will get your tires to break traction and spin. *shrugs* Everyone has there own style to it, so go out to a parking lot and find out what works.

[Selfmindead]

Yeah I need to use my hand brake more often...lol

[suvsareretarded]

You are not drifting. You are ass-dragging. There is a difference.

:bowrofl:

If you want to do something real fun, take off any rear swaybars from your car, go around a corner with teh throttle lightly applied as fast as you can, and let off the throttle and hit the brakes. It's exciting. Promise.

[speedpenguin]

:bowrofl:
If you want to do something real fun, take off any rear swaybars from your car, go around a corner with teh throttle lightly applied as fast as you can, and let off the throttle and hit the brakes. It's exciting. Promise.
please for the love of god don't do that on a public road :uh:
i'm not going to condemn you for saying that until i know whether or not you are serious

[gfrg88]

After reading alot of what most people said. I started thinking......
....So am i doing it wrong?
I dont use my E-brake too much only to counter steer into an opposing corner. I mainly use the "left foot brake" teq. and push all the weight to the front to losen the rear end stomp and feather the throttle. There is a little bit of a science to it as you saw in the video. But then again they are using the "E" alot too


i saw him do this in our socal meet and at first i thought he had used the handbrake but he didnt and it looked pretty good for a fwd....

[kidman2505]

*thumbs up* if you can slide you can slide!

[Feuerstoss]

Heh... it might be possible on an FF, and it's definately possible on an FR, but I obviously don't own any driftable cars(Not keen on trying on my daily, and I don't feel like putting my Celica's diff at stake E-braking it), but if I get in the wet or some gravel on the 'four... wow. Rally slides are awesome. :)

[suvsareretarded]

FF? Jeez. Step outside of gran turismo world and say FWD like everyone else. :P

PS: Sweet celica.

[HondaBoy]

doesnt FF just say front engine front drive, FWD is front wheel drive. not as descriptive. anyway, the way i got my datsun to drift was to take a corner fairly quickly while still keeping control, not sliding it. then shift down giving it gas and let the clutch out hard, turn the wheel opposite of the rear wheels slide, then to the same direction of the rear wheels slide to gain a nice controlled slide forward through the turn. works for me, the accord usually sticks too well to get it sliding out unless its on a gravel or dirt road which is fun.

[speedpenguin]

i think one thing we're ignoring is that FF or no, hondas are really designed to grip, not slide, and they're really good at it.
great news if you're racing, but if you're trying to drift, a honda wouldn't be my first choice, even if it was an S2000

[suvsareretarded]

i think one thing we're ignoring is that FF or no, hondas are really designed to grip, not slide, and they're really good at it.
great news if you're racing, but if you're trying to drift, a honda wouldn't be my first choice, even if it was an S2000

Um..... isn't EVERY CAR EVER MADE designed to grip? Could you please point me towards a car that was designed to slide, because I'm sure most insurance companies would like to know about it.

[Deadhead]

:bowrofl:
If you want to do something real fun, take off any rear swaybars from your car, go around a corner with teh throttle lightly applied as fast as you can, and let off the throttle and hit the brakes. It's exciting. Promise.

yes, very exciting and very expensive lmfao :bowrofl: :bowrofl:

[od2681]

whats RWD then...Dick pushing?
:rofl: :rofl:

[speedpenguin]

Um..... isn't EVERY CAR EVER MADE designed to grip? Could you please point me towards a car that was designed to slide, because I'm sure most insurance companies would like to know about it.
i'm sorry, that was not specific enough.
my point is not that there are cars that are designed to slide, all cars are designed to grip, my point is that hondas are especially good at it. that's why they are renowned all over the world as well-handling cars. poor grammar, i know, but i'm sure you get the idea. :)
there are people who have tried to drift the S2000, and they have learned that far more suspension tuning is needed then if they were trying to adapt a "traditional" drift car such as a silvia or trueno.
hondas are corner carvers, plain and simple

[suvsareretarded]

i'm sorry, that was not specific enough.
my point is not that there are cars that are designed to slide, all cars are designed to grip, my point is that hondas are especially good at it. that's why they are renowned all over the world as well-handling cars. poor grammar, i know, but i'm sure you get the idea. :)
there are people who have tried to drift the S2000, and they have learned that far more suspension tuning is needed then if they were trying to adapt a "traditional" drift car such as a silvia or trueno.
hondas are corner carvers, plain and simple

Uh... okay. I thought BMW was known for it's handling, not honda. :\

Whatever. Honda makes quality products, but I don't exactly associate them with some sort of performance purebred image, more like a nice car that is reliable and well put together. And honestly, I disagree. A suspension is a suspension is a suspension. The ability of a car to corner is not because of the badge on it's hood, but generally the bits and pieces that make up the car. I've been to a lot of autocrosses, and while a lot of hondas compete, I don't see them winning that often.
:sad2:

Again, not knocking them, but I disagree with your 'opinion'.

EDIT: Just guessing here, but I'd imagine the trouble with using an S2000 as a drift car would be a few things: 1. Extremely light weight coupled with fairly wide tires from the factory= hard to break loose in the first place 2. VTEC, which although provides power, also is not a regular engine curve, it comes on in a big lump at a certain RPM, so throttle application would be tricky. >shrug< Just guesses.

[speedpenguin]

hondas are very well-known for their handling in certain circles (particularly circles of honda fans:))
but i think we can agree to disagree here and leave it at that. this thread is getting kinda long

[gfrg88]

arent hondas known for as economic cars??

[3rdgenhatchDX]

I drifted my hatch again this morning.... snow was a plus, and so was the empty parking lot, "no cops, no stops" :bowrofl: anyways it was fun, wish i had a camcorder tho...:sad2:

[suvsareretarded]

arent hondas known for as economic cars??

Economy. Or economical. Not economic.

[speedpenguin]

Economy. Or economical. Not economic.
if you start correcting people's grammar and spelling on an internet forum you've got your work cut out for you:lol: :lol: :lol:

[88eyeguy]

Economy. Or economical. Not economic.


Oh Lord. Before you try to save the world of grammar, just remember: this is a car forum, and it is based completely off the internet. You can't save them all.

Not to beat a dead horse, but there is a reason people use FF instead of just FWD. You also have: FR(240sx), MR(MR2), and RR (1960's era VW Beetle).

[suvsareretarded]

Not to beat a dead horse, but there is a reason people use FF instead of just FWD. You also have: FR(240sx), MR(MR2), and RR (1960's era VW Beetle).

Maybe it's a regional thing, but here in the midwest every single car person I've ever met refers to something as FWD, RWD, or AWD, or they might mention Mid engine, which as far as I know is always RWD. The only cars that have engines in the back of hte car are beetles and porsches, so I don't think I've ever heard or seen anybody refer to a "RR" car. The only time I've ever seen FF, FR, MR, and RR was in gran turismo.

[suvsareretarded]

if you start correcting people's grammar and spelling on an internet forum you've got your work cut out for you:lol: :lol: :lol:

His spelling and grammar was fine. He was just using the wrong word. Having an 'economic' car doesn't really make sense... economical or economy does. :dunno:

[88eyeguy]

Using the wrong word is considered a grammatical error. And people differentiate between FF, FR, MR, and RR where I come from. I learned those terms ten years ago from my dad, who couldn't tell you what Gran Turismo is.

[suvsareretarded]

Using the wrong word is considered a grammatical error. And people differentiate between FF, FR, MR, and RR where I come from. I learned those terms ten years ago from my dad, who couldn't tell you what Gran Turismo is.

Like I said, maybe it's regional. Texas is a far cry from most states in America.

[getready]

I'm pretty sure that gran tourismo didnt make it up, its not regional, its just the correct terminoloy. Suvsareretarded, this is the second or third thread i've seen you correcting people's grammar, typing, or just general correcting. Whats up with that man?

[suvsareretarded]

Just trying to help out. I feel that if I was constantly making errors, like using 'accept' instead of 'except', I would want someone to correct me so I don't look like a total retard.

As for the FF FR stuff, I dunno. Maybe us midwesterners just don't have that lingo, ya dig? :P We're all too busy racing tractors and milking cows!

[kidman2505]

Its still a thread for drifting right?

[88eyeguy]

It hardly was to begin with.

But to go back on topic I have "drifted" a FF-or FWD-vehicle, and I have drifted a FR-a RWD differentiated from a MR or RR vehicle (which are more difficult to drift)-and I much prefer the control lent the driver in the FR format.

[speedpenguin]

1. the terms FF, FR, MR, RR, and 4WD are used primarily in touring car racing which is the most popular form of racing in japan.
2. gran turismo is a japanese game about touring car racing, that's why they are used in the game. the game did not invent them.
3. the most poular form of racing in the US (not counting NASCAR, which has about as much to do with the average racer as F1 does) is drag racing. drag racing uses the terms FWD and RWD because until only very recently the only cars competing were FF and FR, so more specific terms are not needed, especially since you're really only driving in a straight line anyway.
4. long story short, suvsaretarded is right, it is a regional thing.

interesting point to add, just for fun.
all cars competing in touring car racing under the classification 4WD are technically AWD. there is a difference between the two. but since there are no actual 4WD drive cars (4WD is used mostly on trucks anyway) competing, plus the fact that there is no difference in suspension tuning or handling between 4WD and AWD, only one classification is needed.

[88eyeguy]

1. the terms FF, FR, MR, RR, and 4WD are used primarily in touring car racing which is the most popular form of racing in japan.
2. gran turismo is a japanese game about touring car racing, that's why they are used in the game. the game did not invent them.
3. the most poular form of racing in the US (not counting NASCAR, which has about as much to do with the average racer as F1 does) is drag racing. drag racing uses the terms FWD and RWD because until only very recently the only cars competing were FF and FR, so more specific terms are not needed, especially since you're really only driving in a straight line anyway.
4. long story short, suvsaretarded is right, it is a regional thing.

interesting point to add, just for fun.
all cars competing in touring car racing under the classification 4WD are technically AWD. there is a difference between the two. but since there are no actual 4WD drive cars (4WD is used mostly on trucks anyway) competing, plus the fact that there is no difference in suspension tuning or handling between 4WD and AWD, only one classification is needed.


You're forgetting how important it is in road racing, autox, and coughdriftingcough. Ever tried to race in an MR2? It's a whole different ballgame from racing in a 240SX or in a Honda Accord-horsepower levels notwithstanding. It's not limited to regions; more likely it's limited to forms of competitive driving. The subject of this thread is drifting, and the designations are important to that particular sport if not to drag racing.

[gfrg88]

suvsareretarded you should calm down a bit on correcting people, i think people get the point of what someone is trying to say, although this time i think you did a good job on correcting someone(me) i dont know why i used economic :werd: anyways yeah i think hondas were made for economy not for racing or drifting,

the best way to get your car to drift is when its raining, go out to a big parking lot and get the car up to about 20 mph turn pull the e brake just a bit and then bam your "drifting" and dangerous....

[speedpenguin]

You're forgetting how important it is in road racing, autox, and coughdriftingcough. Ever tried to race in an MR2? It's a whole different ballgame from racing in a 240SX or in a Honda Accord-horsepower levels notwithstanding. It's not limited to regions; more likely it's limited to forms of competitive driving. The subject of this thread is drifting, and the designations are important to that particular sport if not to drag racing.
so i swore that would be the last time i posted on this thread, but whatev, a chance to elaborate is a chance to elaborate, and i should have been more specific in my point in the first place.
when i said touring car racing, i actually meant road racing, but hey, touring car racing is really just professional road racing anyway. i thought about mentioning drifting, but i figured that the connection to road racing (the sport of pro drifting originating from racing on touge, the fact that a lot of pro drifters in japan are former JGTC racers, etc.) would be implied. i guess i should have added that. autocross wasn't really worth mentioning either, since it's really just a time attack with cones (no disrespect. i'm just making the point that both drifting and autocross are derived from road racing).
as to the regional difference, my point was this:
since road racing is way more popular in japan than it is here, the terms in discussion are common knowledge in japan.
since drag racing is by far the most popular form of racing in america, (particularly in places like texas, hence suvsaretarded's confusion, once again no disrespect :)) drag racing terms are more well-known than road racing terms. hence, the regional difference.

anyways yeah i think hondas were made for economy not for racing or drifting
actually this is not entirely true. the founder of honda (soichiro honda, may he rest in peace) was actually an avid road racer and motorcycle racer. he loved british sports cars, and all cars he had a direct hand in designing carry the same trait that a british sports car does (the honda S600 is a good example). this is why even cheap economy hondas are undeniably fun, well handling cars, i mean there's a reason a honda wins just about every car and driver (talking about the magazine here) comparison it's in, even if it's not the fastest car in the lineup.
any questions?

[88eyeguy]

when i said touring car racing, i actually meant road racing, but hey, touring car racing is really just professional road racing anyway. i thought about mentioning drifting, but i figured that the connection to road racing (the sport of pro drifting originating from racing on touge, the fact that a lot of pro drifters in japan are former JGTC racers, etc.) would be implied. i guess i should have added that. autocross wasn't really worth mentioning either, since it's really just a time attack with cones (no disrespect. i'm just making the point that both drifting and autocross are derived from road racing).
as to the regional difference, my point was this:
since road racing is way more popular in japan than it is here, the terms in discussion are common knowledge in japan.
since drag racing is by far the most popular form of racing in america, (particularly in places like texas, hence suvsaretarded's confusion, once again no disrespect :)) drag racing terms are more well-known than road racing terms. hence, the regional difference.

any questions?

Sorry to keep you, but I need to elaborate a little on my post as well. Simply because drag racing is the most popular form of racing in America, it does not rule out other forms of racing. goning in a straight line all you need to know is: FWD, RWD, or 4/AWD. In any race with curves, you should also consider engine placement. Obviously, I am more concerned with road racing and its counterparts than I am with drag racing or NASCAR. I was just trying to say that FF, FR, etc. are not simply terms people use to sound "JDM tyte, yo!", but are real designations used all over the world to show a difference in the engine placement. It does have an effect on performance outside of the video game and ricer realms. That was my whole point.

[speedpenguin]

i think we have the exact same point.
i was in fact trying to give some background on different reasons why everyone doesn't use the same terms and you were giving other reasons... :lol:
why don't we let this one go...

[88eyeguy]

:rofl: :rofl:

I just re-read the posts...and you're exactly right. That's freaking hilarious. Sooooo, yeah. I didn't see it as arguing, but I'd be more than happy to let it go.