Fixing Valve Timing - Shortcut Method?

[it's paid for]

( . . . from TINMAN in a previous thread . . . )
As for the belt tensioner, you just have to loosen the bolt on the idler, and retighten after you have cycled the engine 2 revolutions...DO NOT FORCE TENSION ON THE IDLER, it is preset with a calibrated fulcrum spring.


Okay . . . I'm convinced my ignition timing is out - even though I put on the timing belt about 15 times to get it right, I must've messed it up and gotten it off by a tooth . . . I think I can check the valve timing but is there any way to just "quickly" change a tooth on the cam pulley - some shortcut?

I tried to understand the response from TINMAN in the above quote, but his description is too vague or incomplete for my limited experience . . . remember, I'm not a mechanic & I'm sort of way in over my head on this project . . . the idea of removing the crankshaft pulley, & belts for alternator, water pump & power steering pump, lower & upper timing belt covers, & timing belt tensioner - then slipping it off & back on . . . what a hassle . . . this will probably take me four hours to do this simple task . . . I was hoping for a shortcut . . . and any other useful suggestions . . .

BTW - for those not familiar with this project, I'm working on a 2G with an EK-1 engine - somewhat similar to the 3G engine . . . well, sort of . . .

It's getting fuel, the ignition timing is close enough . . . car runs, but it's slow and builds power slow and it's hard to crank . . .& I've checked the ignition timing so many times I'm confident it isn't that . . . so, I'm pretty sure it has to be the valve timing . . . one peek with the valve cover removed and the crank at TDC mark (not the ignition timin mark) should confirm this, eh?

BTW - I really appreciate your patience with my lack of experience.

Thanks . . . like a whole bunch,

IPF

[Vinny]

Now I'm not tooo sure on the 2g but I know on my 3G it was running like hell. It was an absolute dog power wise until about 4k then it would just take off. I set the flywheel to TDC, took off the can gear cover and valve cover and found the "top" mark on my cam gear was at almost 4 o'clock. All I did was loosen the timing belt tensioner until I could get the belt to slide off the cam gear, then align the timing mark on the cam gear with the surface of the head where the valve cover sits. Slid the bely back on (that part was a bitch) and retightened the tensioner. Then I went back in and readjusted my valves and set my distributor timing to about neutral (I still haven't set it with a light). That was it, it took me an hour or so to do it. Turning the cam gear wasn't easy, so just be aware of that b4 you start. You might also want to think about a new valve cover gasket if you've been taking it on and off

[NXRacer]

that must be whats wrong with my car. Its running horribly and when i put a timing light on it i couldnt see any timing mark on the flywheel. Its an absolute DOG until it gets up there, but it still runs hella rough then. is the TOP mark on the outer edge of the cam gear?

[Vinny]

Caleb look on Pauls manual in the engine section, 6-16 shows a pretty good picture of the cam gear. I cropped it and tried to load it but photohost is down right now. It shows EXACTLY how the cam gear should be when the flywheel is at TDC

[AZmike]

is the TOP mark on the outer edge of the cam gear?

One of the spokes on the cam pulley is labeled up. It should point a little forward (~15 degrees from straight up), perpendicular to the top of the head. There are two little dash marks on the rim of the cam pulley that should line up with the top of the cylinder head when the cam is at exactly TDC.

[Vinny]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid102/p064d5a2d34713fd502c545dd6360e2e4/f9b73c6c.jpg

We'll see how long imagestation will work

[TINBOAT]

Okay...remove the valve cover, set your engine at TDC with the casting that says "UP" on the cam gear pointing up. Look on both sides of the cam gear, and you will see 2 notches, on either side of the gear, line these up with the valve cover mating surfaces to the head. Now take a 12mm wrench and loosten off the tensioner bolt, and take a long screwdriver, or prybar, and move the tensioner back off the belt, and the retighten. Now the belt will slide of the camgear relatively easy.
Set the flywheel on the "T", slide the belt back onto the camgear, loosten off the tensioner and re-tighten, turn the engine over 2 full revolutions, and set it back on the "T" on the flywheel, and recheck the camgear for alignment.

Sorry if I sound "vague"....but that's how it's done...

[TINBOAT]

Thanks for the pic Vinny

[Vinny]

Tin you might not want to focus on the cam gear TDC mark as much as the flywheel TDC. If he's off on his belt theres no telling where the cam gear "up" mark and timing marks will be when the engine/flywheel is at TDC. I personally think he needs to be set the flywheel first then match the cam gear to the flywheel TDC mark. If he rotates past TDC on the flywheel he's gonna be turning and turning the crank to get the flywheel back to TDC. Its easier to rotate the cam gear back to TDC than the fly because of the circumference

[TINBOAT]

I concurr..got a little ahead of myself...forgot he really doesnt have a baseline to start with...make sure the flywheel is at TDC !!!....(but also make sure it is on the firing stroke, otherwise, you could be 180* out)...not to worry "It's Paid For", you're getting real close.

[NXRacer]

i know we're kinda whoring up this thread, but its related in a way. When i put the timing light on my car, i didnt see any mark on the flywheel at all. Now i dont know if the flywheel was taken off and installed wrong or what, but i dont know if i can rely on the flywheel to tell me whats TDC. when all valves on #1 are closed that signals TDC. Correct?

[TINBOAT]

Do you have the vaccuum lines removed and pugged at the distributor ?...if you do, and still cant get a mark with your lite (and the pickup is definately on #1 cylinder, farthest plug from the distributor), I would say you have a timing belt issue.

[Vinny]

Flywheel uses a dowel pin to make sure its almost idiot proof so I doubt its installed wrong Caleb. The marks should be there. There should be 3 sets of marhs, one for TDC and the other are at 13 or 15 degrees before and after TDC on the LX-i's I beleive. Don't quote me on the number, but there are 3 marks total on the flywheel. Its a 2 person job to find it, one to turn the crank and one to look through the timing window

[it's paid for]

. . . Sorry if I sound "vague"....but that's how it's done...


Hey - I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression - there's no way I'm upset with your posts - just the opposite is true - I'm just a bit frustrated because I haven't been understanding how to do just basic, routine stuff . . . even when it's explained well . . . is there hope for me? Heck yeah! I can't believe I've gotten this far . . . couldn't have possibly done it without the help from so many of you guys . . . MEGA-THANKS!!!

Now, let's get the job finished . . .



. . . i know we're kinda whoring up this thread, but . . .

Hey - that's never a problem with me . . . it's all good dialog . . .

Thanks again everyone for the advice, suggestions, instructions, photo(s) & . . . also - the encouragement!

I'll be home again this weekend to resume and get this thing rolling . . . I can do anything . . . it's still remarkable that it runs . . . and I did it . . . honestly, it's a great feeling to know I've gotten this far . . .

I think I'll have to drill a hole on the carb linkage arm - lower & closer to the pivot point so I can fully activate both stages of the carb . . . but that's another thread . . . in the carb forum, I guess . . .

Happy Honda-ing,

IPF

[79EK1]

If the cam gear timing marks and the TDC mark at the flywheel/flexplate are aligned, then the valve timing is okay. Even if it's off by a couple of degrees, you're still okay. Moving the timing belt one tooth can change the cam timing by 8-10 degrees, so don't do it, unless you're absolutely sure it has to be done. It sounds like the ignition timing could be retarded. Make sure the initial timing is set with the vacuum advance disconnected and plugged off. Also, if your 83 EK1 distributor has a vacuum advance/retard cannister, it's important to hook the vacuum line from the carb to the advance side, and not the retard side.

I have the early EK1 (79-81) in my 1G, so our engines are pretty much the same. Hopefully, this will help you out. Good luck.