11psi on stock fuel pump?

[Accordtheory]

I am wondering when a fuel pump upgrade becomes necessary. I am using the factory fuel pump and regulator, with 7-8psi, and I am contemplating turning the boost up, maybe to as much as 11psi. Anyone know about this?
thanks

[Elijah]

U already have ur turbo installed? U should have already went to a bigger fuel pump.What r u doing for manegment?

[Accordtheory]

I have had a turbosystem for a while. I fabricated everything myself, from the long runner equal length manifold (Extremely tight fit, puts the turbo left of the front motor mount) to the induction tube to the exhaust to adding the additional injectors, and wiring everything up. I am using a programmable supplemental injection system and the J&S Safeguard for engine management. As I said, I am running around 7-8 psi, and I am just wondering when a pump upgrade becomes necessary. Sean will probably know about this, as will maybe 88turboaccord...

[Sean]

your out of fuel pump

[Elijah]

Well I just bought my fuel pump today.The kit should be in by Friday.I bought the.Or I should let Sean anwser that one.He gave me a tip on a pump and sock.I dont know if he wants to tell peeps.

Do u have any pics of ur setup???I would like to see it

[88turboaccord]

I would have automatically put an inline fuel pump right off the bat.. How do your spark plugs look? What are you using for a fuel managment system?

Oh when you start turning up the boost, you are looking at spending quiet a bit more money. If you turn the boost up more, I would give you a week tops that the motor will fall apart

[Sean]

i dunno justin. ive run 18 psi with a 94 octane blend non intercooled. also he is using a j&s safe guard system. supposedly when it detects knock. thats bad that it happened. then it retards timming. and i think hes using an axuliary fuel injector setup. thats not to bad.

[88turboaccord]

Yeah, well see, I did not know what he was running. With the stuff he has, he should be able to bump it up... 94 oct. damn!!! Damn socal only have 91oct.... My audi hates it--boosting 11-13psi with it now.. Gas is also $2.17/gal. right now---ouch

[Accordtheory]

18psi with no intercooler???!!? What?? Actually the J&S has 2 adjustments for boost retard: rate, which I have set at slightly under 1.5deg/lb, and onset, which I have set at 0 psi. (You can tune the system with itself, just adjust it until the display stops showing it taking out timing) However, as much as I like to say how cool this system is, I haven't been able to get it to work properly. (it had to be "adapted" to this application) Either it is at fault, or I am, I haven't figured out which yet, but I can't rev over 5k rpm without the tach jumping and the engine misfiring. Also, I don't know what my A/F ratio actually is, but the EGT is slightly above 1400F under boost, and I can hit 9 psi without the J&S taking out timing..although sudden changes in manifold press (like when I shift) can trigger up to 6 deg retard for a split second..? Possibly something to do with the way I have programmed my injector controller? It's a work in progress. Maybe after I fix the ignition problem, I'll turn up the boost with my eye glued to the knock retard and egt guage. Then when my clutch starts slipping like my old one I'll turn it down a little. Also, have you guys tried the Nitrous Express octane boost?

[Sean]

18psi with no intercooler???!!? What?? Actually the J&S has 2 adjustments for boost retard: rate, which I have set at slightly under 1.5deg/lb, and onset, which I have set at 0 psi. (You can tune the system with itself, just adjust it until the display stops showing it taking out timing) However, as much as I like to say how cool this system is, I haven't been able to get it to work properly. (it had to be "adapted" to this application) Either it is at fault, or I am, I haven't figured out which yet, but I can't rev over 5k rpm without the tach jumping and the engine misfiring. Also, I don't know what my A/F ratio actually is, but the EGT is slightly above 1400F under boost, and I can hit 9 psi without the J&S taking out timing..although sudden changes in manifold press (like when I shift) can trigger up to 6 deg retard for a split second..? Possibly something to do with the way I have programmed my injector controller? It's a work in progress. Maybe after I fix the ignition problem, I'll turn up the boost with my eye glued to the knock retard and egt guage. Then when my clutch starts slipping like my old one I'll turn it down a little. Also, have you guys tried the Nitrous Express octane boost?

Yeah when you have to fight with a centrigual advance distributor timing isnt very stable. MY DIS setup is accurate to withine .5 degrees. So i can tightly control spark advane which keeps it out of knock. As for fuel yet again with having a fully mapable EFI system with a WB02 input for data loggging i always know exactly what my A/F ratio is. Therby i can aviod knock. Also intercoolers can force the turbo into overspinning by reducing air volume and increasing restriction. Theres alot of trade off with and air to air. I would also be willing to bet that even with the really beatiful header of your that there some resonance reversion into the cylinder. Thats why i avioded long runners. Lower back pressure showed that a shorter runner worked better.

As for the other items. Well you know how thats goes. Tight tunning etc can allow me to do things most other guys cant get away with.

[Accordtheory]

The centrifugal advance does suck, but that's not what's causing my problem, it's purely electrical. If I short and disconnect the input of the J&S to ground, the unit triggers the ignitor to send out one spark and then several smaller "aftersparks". It is NOT supposed to do this. I need to send it in. Anyway, did you just upgrade your fuel pump at first, or do you know when it actually runs out of capacity?

[PhydeauX]

You can never have too much fuel come from the pump, what ever you don't need just goes back to the tank (provided the rest of your fuel system can deal with the volume). Better to pump in more then you need and have it return then not pump enough and not have it when you need it. To make X amount of hp you need Y amount of fuel. Find a fuel pump that supports a little bit more then your hp goal and plumb it in. Going up a few sizes in fuel lines never hurt either.

andy

[Sean]

The centrifugal advance does suck, but that's not what's causing my problem, it's purely electrical. If I short and disconnect the input of the J&S to ground, the unit triggers the ignitor to send out one spark and then several smaller "aftersparks". It is NOT supposed to do this. I need to send it in. Anyway, did you just upgrade your fuel pump at first, or do you know when it actually runs out of capacity?


Well the key issue is fuel pressure vs volume. At 55psi the stock pump flows around 100lph. Just enough for 200hp.If you up around 70 psi pump flow drops to around 80lph. So then you alot shorter on fuel supply. MNy advice is to upgrade to a 3/8 fuel line and a 200lph pump. Better to have mroe volume then you need. And as fuel pressure goes up Volumes goes down.

As fo0r the after sparks. Sounds like the pickup in the distributor is having some trouble. ID get my hands on an osciliscope and have a look see at whats going on. either that or the centrifigual advance it moving the rotor beyond the range of the edge of the cap terminal. Or more simply you have a rotor phasing Issue

[Accordtheory]

Thanks for the fuel info, finally someone has the numbers I was looking for. Now I just wonder how much boost I need to make 200hp...? As far as I know, my distributor is fine. Since the 3g doesn't have computer controlled timing (well I guess yours does...) the only way I could splice into the coil input was to splice into the negative side of the coil, between the coil and the ignitor. The wire from the ignitor goes to the chan 1 input of the safeguard, and then the safeguard powers another ignitor (94 accord), which then powers the coil. (John, the "J" in J&S, says this setup should be legit) I have a 470 ohm resistor connected between +12v and the chan 1 input, to make sure that the safeguard sees 12v and then 0, as the ignitor connects and disconnects this wire to ground. I am reasonably sure that the fault lies with the safeguard, because when I manually short and release the chan 1 input to ground, sometimes the J&S will trigger the second ignitor multiple times, producing maybe 4 or 5 extra sparks. When it does this when I am driving, the tach jumps, and the car misfires horribly. By the way, I still want more info on your efi system. Specifically, how does one go about programming it, etc? Does it interface with Windows?

[Sean]

Thanks for the fuel info, finally someone has the numbers I was looking for. Now I just wonder how much boost I need to make 200hp...? As far as I know, my distributor is fine. Since the 3g doesn't have computer controlled timing (well I guess yours does...) the only way I could splice into the coil input was to splice into the negative side of the coil, between the coil and the ignitor. The wire from the ignitor goes to the chan 1 input of the safeguard, and then the safeguard powers another ignitor (94 accord), which then powers the coil. (John, the "J" in J&S, says this setup should be legit) I have a 470 ohm resistor connected between +12v and the chan 1 input, to make sure that the safeguard sees 12v and then 0, as the ignitor connects and disconnects this wire to ground. I am reasonably sure that the fault lies with the safeguard, because when I manually short and release the chan 1 input to ground, sometimes the J&S will trigger the second ignitor multiple times, producing maybe 4 or 5 extra sparks. When it does this when I am driving, the tach jumps, and the car misfires horribly. By the way, I still want more info on your efi system. Specifically, how does one go about programming it, etc? Does it interface with Windows?

Well there are device eprom emulators etc that would allow for a direct interface with ecm. typically you go log data then go home burn a chip with changes etc etc etc.Tunning is done via a widbeband 02 sensor and knock sensor. Using each to help diagnose the quality of the tune. Still you have to do plug cuts and lots of other systems to ensure that the tunning your doing is correct.

As for the fuel pump and boost.

typically in a vacum refernced system Like the 3g accord youll go up 1psi of fuel pressure per pound of boost. SO if stock pressure at WOT is 45psi at 10 psi your at 55psi of fuel pressure. Id think youll fall very short of your FP and fuel volume goals if you decide to stick to the Stock fuel pump. Break down and spend $80-100 on a good walbro direct fit 255lph pump.

As for your ignition issue. The j&s safe gurad is seeing the inductive kickback from the field colapse in the coil when the ignition module shuts off current to break field and fire the coil. SO it would be best to tap the ignition for a refernce at the ignition module where the hall effect goes into the ignitor. OR you could put in a clamping diode with a tie to ground with a 470k resistor to help stop the kick back from hitting the pickup side of the j&s safe guard system.

[Accordtheory]

I was wondering about this already, but what I don't get is how enough voltage could be induced into the J&S ch1 input to cause my symptoms, because it is only connected to the factory ignitor. You are saying that when the coil primary field collapses, it induces a current back into the primary coil, right? But this current only has to travel like 4 inches before it gets to my 94 ignitor! So then, how would any induced voltage get back to the input side of the safeguard? Do you think that simply running the wire from the factory ignitor (ch1 in) and the wire from the ch 1 output to the 94 accord ignitor close to each other could be causing this problem? (They travel next to each other all the way from the engine compartment to underneath my seat) I am going to feel pretty stupid if this is all it is. What I am going to do is disconnect the ch1 in wire at the safeguard and connect a very short jumper wire to the ch1 in, connect my 470k resistor, and then short and disconnect this wire to ground. Then, if the unit still produces those aftersparks, I will be damn sure it is defective. What do you think about this? John at J&S is sick of talking to me.

[Sean]

I was wondering about this already, but what I don't get is how enough voltage could be induced into the J&S ch1 input to cause my symptoms, because it is only connected to the factory ignitor. You are saying that when the coil primary field collapses, it induces a current back into the primary coil, right? But this current only has to travel like 4 inches before it gets to my 94 ignitor! So then, how would any induced voltage get back to the input side of the safeguard? Do you think that simply running the wire from the factory ignitor (ch1 in) and the wire from the ch 1 output to the 94 accord ignitor close to each other could be causing this problem? (They travel next to each other all the way from the engine compartment to underneath my seat) I am going to feel pretty stupid if this is all it is. What I am going to do is disconnect the ch1 in wire at the safeguard and connect a very short jumper wire to the ch1 in, connect my 470k resistor, and then short and disconnect this wire to ground. Then, if the unit still produces those aftersparks, I will be damn sure it is defective. What do you think about this? John at J&S is sick of talking to me.


Can the j&S be used as an ignition moduel ? does it have a coil drive inside ? putting a diode in between the ignitor and the coil would effectively stamp out the inductive kick back. Hook up your scope or a scope and youll see the inductive kickback. This kickback is normally clamped inside the ignitor istelf.

if you going to use the coil drive signal to trigger the coil and the j&S get a 20amp diode 12v rating and keep the j&S tied to the ignitor. Just make sure that the dioe is between the place where the j&s and the ignitor are tied together and the negative termnical on the coil. Also make sure that the diode is facing in the proper direction. I think those should kill the kick back issue for sure

[Accordtheory]

Thanks for your help, but I am getting rid of this safeguard. It failed my test, and as far as the output side, it is hooked up exactly as it would be on a modern car. This unit (There are many different versions available, I have the 1/2ch import version) doesn't have it's own coil driver circuit, it just basically delays the signal that the ecm sends to the ignitor on a modern car with computer controlled timing. Inductive kickback would never reach the unit via the output, and when I did my test with the short input wire, it still malfunctioned.