Removed My Power Steering Belt - NICE!!!

[it's paid for]

. . . it's a long story, but the system was leaking (not at the pump) and so, I just drained the stuff (well, most of it), removed the reservoir (sp?), and reservoir bracket - cleaned them both thoroughly and the area under and around them and then removed the power steering belt and . . . it's done!

So far, it's not bad until I slow down and then I realize it's hard to turn and I think my engine just quit . . . nope . . . everything's just fine . . . no need to panic . . .

. . . this is really cool . . . I love it - especially when I think it's saving gas & giving me more horsepower (perhaps it's not even recognizable but just the thought is nice) . . .

. . . I think some of the opinions posted earlier about "hard to drive when slow" are somewhat exaggerated when removing p/s . . . yeah, sure it's harder to turn when in a parking lot, but geez . . . it's not that bad . . . it sort of gives me more of that "sporty car" feel . . . zoom-zoom!!!

Thanks to everyone who suggested removing it . . . as is, I now have the option of putting it back into operation any time I want to . . . but . . . since it's leaking . . . I doubt that'll happen anytime soon . . . in fact, I'll probably cap it at the rack and remove all the other crap . . . why not . . . my pile of junk I've taken off this car is getting larger & larger . . . and, that's usually a good thing . . .

Happy Honda-ing,

IPF

[Blkblurr]

Might as well pull it off. Less weight to pull around. Cap off fittings on your rack so as to leave a small amount of oil in it. It will help to keep the internals of the rack lubricated.

[k-roy]

Muhahahahaha
Another one is converted to the dark side. Congratulations.

All the anti removing PS hype is from a bunch of scrawney ass 120 lb weaklings. Im no body builder but I am far from weak and I have zero problems with it. Once you hit 5mph you barely even notice. I like the increased road feel the best, its more precise. Have you ripped out your A/C and cruise control yet? Thats pretty useless as well.

[smufguy]

there are so many guys who do this but always the cap off stuff. Not a good move man. Talk to guys in canada and get a Non power steering rack and install it. U will wear out the internal mechanism on the pwr steering rack with no fluid being pumped into em. Leaving a little fluid in the system with no pump running will lubricate the rack is a misconception. Just pm carotman and other people who live in canada to get a NOn power steering rack.

[Blkblurr]

There are two places on the rack that require lubrication. The rack and pinion gear mesh which is lubed with grease and does not see ps fluid and the end bearings. The only thing that ps fluid helps to lube are the seals that keep the fluid from leaking out of the gear. If these seals get dry they cause drag. All critical areas are greased and do not depend on ps fluid for lube.

[it's paid for]

. . . Have you ripped out your A/C and cruise control yet? Thats pretty useless as well.


Yeah . . . so far, I've removed the following:

A/C compressor
a/c radiator looking thing
black box with all the vacuum tubes
tons of plumbing (who knows what this stuff usta do)
EGR valve
and a bunch of other stuff

I guess the cruise control was attached to the old carb? I was thinking of using the c/c switches on my steering wheel to do something . . . change CD's? That'd be cool!

Really appreciate this comment:
There are two places on the rack that require lubrication. The rack and pinion gear mesh which is lubed with grease and does not see ps fluid and the end bearings. The only thing that ps fluid helps to lube are the seals that keep the fluid from leaking out of the gear. If these seals get dry they cause drag. All critical areas are greased and do not depend on ps fluid for lube.

As always, happy Honda-ing,

IPF

[N-Man]

Yeah . . . so far, I've removed the following:

A/C compressor
a/c radiator looking thing
black box with all the vacuum tubes...




IPF

u stay down south and u actually removed the a/c? i hope u have another car that u drive, or your gonna b pretty freakin hot durin the summer time.

[smufguy]

There are two places on the rack that require lubrication. The rack and pinion gear mesh which is lubed with grease and does not see ps fluid and the end bearings. The only thing that ps fluid helps to lube are the seals that keep the fluid from leaking out of the gear. If these seals get dry they cause drag. All critical areas are greased and do not depend on ps fluid for lube.

Its not easy as it may sound, but pretty soon, u will find your rack acting up nonetheless what it lubes. i was explaining to the other dude who wanted to remove his pwr steering. Its like taking out ur oil pump and still having oil. It makes no sense to not have a pump, but just a lubricating fluid, cause ur not doing anything. So the pwr steering pump is there for a reason, and the reason is to lube the internals of the rack. IF u look at the rack itself once u remove it from ur car, there are like 4 lines that go to it. also, ur speed sensor is lubed by the pwr steering fluid too. The grease on the pwr steering ur talking about at the tie rod ends are to make it not seize up and have the metal to metal contact on the ball joint not wear out and not bind up.

You can any moderator here, and they will tell you pretty much exactly what i said. Its just not worth taking out the pwr steering system. It does not hurt anything if its there. But for people who just wanna take it out, well they gotta do it the right way than just cut corners. :cool2:

[Blkblurr]

I understand what your saying smufguy. Your basing your discussion on experience I,m assuming but I'm basing what I'm telling you on the fact that the company I work for makes the machines that assemble these rack and pinion gears as well as systems that test re-manufactured rack and pinion gears. We also helped Honda develop testing systems for their new electric gears. The power steering fluid only lubes the seals in the piston area of the rack. The pistons create the force that moves the rack back and forth. The rack is greased before it is placed in the gear and the seals keep the greese and ps fluid from meeting. The steel tubes deliver the ps fluid under pressure from the torsion valve (steering linkage is connected to this) to the pistons on either end of the rack and pinion commonly refered to as the gear in our industry. I am not doubting that people have trouble with the gears but it's usually because they are in bad shape to begin with otherwise they would probably not disconnect them. My company has built systems for every manufacturer of gears in the industry over a period of 20 years. I don't know about the speed sensor lube though because those are put on after the rack is manufactured.

[smufguy]

I understand what your saying smufguy. Your basing your discussion on experience I,m assuming but I'm basing what I'm telling you on the fact that the company I work for makes the machines that assemble these rack and pinion gears as well as systems that test re-manufactured rack and pinion gears. We also helped Honda develop testing systems for their new electric gears. The power steering fluid only lubes the seals in the piston area of the rack. The pistons create the force that moves the rack back and forth. The rack is greased before it is placed in the gear and the seals keep the greese and ps fluid from meeting. The steel tubes deliver the ps fluid under pressure from the torsion valve (steering linkage is connected to this) to the pistons on either end of the rack and pinion commonly refered to as the gear in our industry. I am not doubting that people have trouble with the gears but it's usually because they are in bad shape to begin with otherwise they would probably not disconnect them. My company has built systems for every manufacturer of gears in the industry over a period of 20 years. I don't know about the speed sensor lube though because those are put on after the rack is manufactured.

I was looking at the Shop manual about the WHole pwr steering system and even it does not clearly show what the system actually does. BUt seems like the speed sensitive steering we got has to do with the fluid pressure from the return line of the Speed sensor, but the fluid seems to do something more than just that. So yeah, you could be able to do it, i am not saying you cant, im just not comfortable doing that to my car, thats why i advice people not do to so. Besides, getting hold of a Non pwr steering rack is not hard, we got fellas in canada who can help us out.

But thanks for ur feedback Blkblurr. I like people when they reply and talk about these kinda things, makes everyone a lil wiser in each aspect. Your comments are greatly appreciated my friend. :cool2:

[Blkblurr]

Thanks man. Your comments are appreciated.

[it's paid for]

But thanks for ur feedback Blkblurr. I like people when they reply and talk about these kinda things, makes everyone a lil wiser in each aspect. Your comments are greatly appreciated my friend.


Thanks man. Your comments are appreciated.

Good grief! This "nice" crap is nauseating. Can't we have a little heated debate and then get all childish and call each other names?

Yeah, you guessed it . . . nuttin' on tv tonight . . .

[smufguy]

Good grief! This "nice" crap is nauseating. Can't we have a little heated debate and then get all childish and call each other names?

Yeah, you guessed it . . . nuttin' on tv tonight . . .

What did u say bitch. What you wanna fuck with us???? Hahahaha just joking buddy. yeah, ur out of luck again. No heated debates here tonight :D.

[eightyfivelude]

hey,

a trick that I learned at the track for removing power steering was to loop the output of the rack to the input. There for you are continually recirculating the fluid in the rack. Everything stays lubed and you get the benifits of losin all the weight from the pump and such

Matt

[k-roy]

hey,

a trick that I learned at the track for removing power steering was to loop the output of the rack to the input. There for you are continually recirculating the fluid in the rack. Everything stays lubed and you get the benifits of losin all the weight from the pump and such

Matt

Good Idea, Im gonna get right on that after I rip out some more emissions BS.

[smufguy]

hey,

a trick that I learned at the track for removing power steering was to loop the output of the rack to the input. There for you are continually recirculating the fluid in the rack. Everything stays lubed and you get the benifits of losin all the weight from the pump and such

Matt

you mean loop the output of the PUMP to the input of the pump?

[it's paid for]

you mean loop the output of the PUMP to the input of the pump?

We're talkin about these two connections on the rack

1 - connection from the pump
2 - connection to the pump

. . . imagine a hose connecting these two connection points together and everything else gone . . . there are photos here somewhere in the archives at 3geez.com . . . I've seen 'em . . . really . . .

[smufguy]

whats the purpose of conneting them together tho? Im just too dumb man. sorry :D is it because u can recirculate the fluid in the rack? Is that what u mean?

[eightyfivelude]

thats exactley what we mean. Just recirculate the fluid in the rack

[smufguy]

okay thats what i thought u were talking about, but u do know the the pwr steering pump has the drive gear and the driven gear to push the fluid thru the system right? but look at the rach control unit. The one that houses the control valve, valve body and cut off valve, they dont have the drive gears to push the fluid in or out, so it does not technically circulate any fluid my friend. Thats what i was trying to get acorss. Fluid does not flow because of the gear box on the bottom steering column or the control box on the bottom of the rack, the pump is what makes the fluid go around, so if u take the pump out, you are not pushing the fluid, which means, you are not circulating anything.

check pages 8-17 to the very last page on the Steering section on Paul's website, u will know what im talking about.

[Blkblurr]

It will circulate fluid from piston to piston as you move the rack back an forth by the force of the rack moving. The one piston squeezes the oil out of it and pushes it into the other. Same idea as the air line that goes between the boots on each end of the rack.

[TINBOAT]

Is the Canadian NON power steering rack out of the Accord S hatch ?....as far as I can recall, this was the only model without power steering..(base model hatch).
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[smufguy]

It will circulate fluid from piston to piston as you move the rack back an forth by the force of the rack moving. The one piston squeezes the oil out of it and pushes it into the other. Same idea as the air line that goes between the boots on each end of the rack.

which piston tho? I think im still missing something on the schematics, i think. Which is the piston on the steering rack? :cool2:

[Blkblurr]

The steering rack has two pistons at the end of the rack that are defined by seals and the seal at the end of the rack. When ps fluid is pumped into the piston at the very end of the rack it pushes the rack away from the seal connected to the housing in the opposite direction, The other piston is just to the right of the first one and is defined by a large seal around the rack that fits tightly against the housing of the rack. Another seal that pushes against the housing completes the piston / cylinder combination so that when ps fluid is pumped into that piston it pushes the rack back the other direction. The torsion valve that the steering linkage connects to directs the flow of ps fluid to either side. the speed sensitive valve causes the ps fluid to bypass the torsion valve at higher speeds so that it offers little to no assist while turning the wheel.

[it's paid for]

The steering rack has two pistons at the end of the rack that are defined by seals and the seal at the end of the rack. When ps fluid is pumped into the piston at the very end of the rack it pushes the rack away from the seal connected to the housing in the opposite direction, The other piston is just to the right of the first one and is defined by a large seal around the rack that fits tightly against the housing of the rack. Another seal that pushes against the housing completes the piston / cylinder combination so that when ps fluid is pumped into that piston it pushes the rack back the other direction. The torsion valve that the steering linkage connects to directs the flow of ps fluid to either side. the speed sensitive valve causes the ps fluid to bypass the torsion valve at higher speeds so that it offers little to no assist while turning the wheel.

. . . uh . . . izzit jus me . . . or . . . does everyone else have no idea what this guy's talking about?

. . . don't get me wrong - I appreciate the comment . . . just wish I wasn't so ignorant so I could understand this stuff . . .

. . . so . . . I drained the p/s fluid tank and that's about it . . . there's still plenny o fluid in there . . . guess I'll jus fill 'er up again & toss on the belt . . . all this talk of rack damage is getting me worried . . .

. . . I'll miss the extra .27 hp increase in power . . .

[Blkblurr]

Sorry, Smufguy asked about the pistons in the rack and pinion and I got carried away describing how it works. The rack has hydraulic cylinders built into it which is what causes the rack to move when your ps pump pressurizes them. One for right and one for left.

[it's paid for]

Sorry, Smufguy asked about the pistons in the rack and pinion and I got carried away describing how it works. The rack has hydraulic cylinders built into it which is what causes the rack to move when your ps pump pressurizes them. One for right and one for left.

. . . that's great . . . but . . . what's the bottom line - in your opinion?

1 - put it back the way it was

2 - leave it as is

Thanks,

IPF

[sandmbiker351]

ok so what you are going to have to do is somehow fill the rack with powersteering fluid and close it all off or else the rack will go bad you know if you did it right because the steering will stiffen up a great deal if you have any questions email me at [email protected] or post me a message or something

[smufguy]

Blkblurr, I think i might have finally gotten what u are talking about. :D

I was looking at pages 18-40 and mainly 18-41, the cutaway of the gearbox (the one houses the rack and pinion) and i see the cylinder and the pistion (its on the middle to the left of the diagram).

So ur sure it would push the fluid left and right and it will lube whatever tho right? But what about cooling the fluid when it gets hot? Cause compressing a fluid does get it hotter tho right? Wouldnt that eventually loose its ability to lube anything?

Please dont mistake me for a hard ass Blkblurr, you know a great deal about pwr steering and i wanna learn :D :cheers:

[Blkblurr]

theres not enough pressure build up to cause the fluid to get hot. If you connect the tubes together there is not much resistance to moving the oil back and forth. If you fill the cylinders up with oil it will lock the gear in place because there is no where for the oil to go when the piston presses on it. If I were going to remove my ps pump and hoses I would allow most of the fluid to drain out and just connect the two lines together. That way trapped air can move from side to side as the rack moves. The residual oil has no place to go so it will remain in the gear to act as a lube for the piston seals.

[it's paid for]

(edit) . . . blah, blah, blah, (edit) . . . If I were going to remove my ps pump and hoses I would allow most of the fluid to drain out and just connect the two lines together. That way trapped air can move from side to side as the rack moves. The residual oil has no place to go so it will remain in the gear to act as a lube for the piston seals.

So - would the result of this procedure yeild negative results - either now or in the distant future?

[Blkblurr]

If your gear is in good shape already, it should be okay in the future. The fluid lines in the diagram that go to the rotary valve are the ones to tie together.

[carotman]

Last time I checked I couldn't find a used manual rack. It came only on the Automatic 86-87 Hatch Accord "S" in Canada. Well, it could come from a manual car (never actualy verified) However, in the Canadian shop manual I have, the removal procedure for the manual rack only mention things for an auto tranny while the power rack procedure shows both manual and auto

I was told that the rear Cross member was different if you had a manual rack. I'l not sure if you could adapt the power steering Cross member to use a manual rack tough. Torque specs for the 2 brackets that hold the rack are different if it's a power rack or not.

I can get remanufactured manual racks without problem if anyone wants them (they are of course more expensive than used racks)

[Michael Cote]

Manual steering (passenger assisted steering...grin) came on 86 and 87 Accord Hatchback 5 spd in Canada. The automatics came with PS. Go figure. Having said that, the power assist is phased out after 40kph (25mph) so HP loss is almost non-existant. One would save a few pounds by removing pump and hardware but hardly worth it. It's a great system and can't beat it for quick parallell parking yet great road feel once underway. I don't know about crossmember differences. Goodluck, Mike

[HondaBoy]

i've got my A/C belt off because it hasnt worked in years! anyway, i dont know about my p/s belt. i thought about it. do y'all think the guys who made our cars ever thought we would be taking all that stuff off and modifying them?

[sandmbiker351]

HEll yeah take everything off powersteering, a/c shit take the dash out too! thats what i did and my car still runs bomb actually it runs bomber than before i remounted the fuse box in the trunk, the battery is in the trunk, a/c condensor is off, "less is more" i forget who said that but some old famous dude and he is right the less stuff you have the more power you have thats what i think

[onliLX-i]

Take off the doors! Yeah man yeah. OH the hood and the trunk too. Put four of those doughnut superlight spares on! Hell smash out all the glass and rip off roof too man, YEAH!:wtf: OH OH cut the car in half and just ride the back end on wheelie bars. That shit must weigh like 50 pounds by now. Imagine the the power to weight ratio!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!:rice:

[Ichiban]

replace the power unit with a proper manual rack. i have many.

[Hash_man_Se_i]

there are so many guys who do this but always the cap off stuff. Not a good move man. Talk to guys in canada and get a Non power steering rack and install it. U will wear out the internal mechanism on the pwr steering rack with no fluid being pumped into em. Leaving a little fluid in the system with no pump running will lubricate the rack is a misconception. Just pm carotman and other people who live in canada to get a NOn power steering rack.

Did all US cars come with power steering?... I had debated removing mine, because i want more feedback...