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smufguy
02-28-2004, 05:36 AM
Turbo 3g gathering ideas
Well some of you fellas might have heard me mention about turboing my 3g within the end of this year and along with that a lot of parts and mis stuff are gonna be changed too. Please bear with me if this post is long i just want to clear much of everything that i have in mind.

Turbo Accessaries

First off, Seans kit is tempting, but seems like i have to stay away from it cause the kit does not support pipes for an intercooler. Secondly, if i wanna get the manifold, then it becomes a $550 part and its just that manifold. I have my manager here who with his mechanic and machinist build log style manifolds for around $300 and my cut would be for $250. I know there has been controversies about the log type being 30% less effective than a smiliar designed manifold like Sean's. After talking to a buncha people and mostly my manager, i found out that only for cars with 500hp+ those kinda numbers get into consideration and for the power i will be pushing, it wont be a big consideration. Next thing is that the car needs to be street legal and which means i need to keep my cat i dont know if the Downpipe that seans kit gives me would be able to provide that, I am guessing it might, but i have to see.

Management TEC 3

Standalone is the way to go and its how i am gonna go. I know its gonna be expensive, but doing it right is priceless, atleast IMO. I have looked at a bunch of em and my manager proposed Haltech or Holley commander, but the computer chief at my school who drag races a 6cyl CBX uses TEC3 and with its advanced capabilites, i might use that. I am 60% leaning towards it even tho its price tag is $1800. pretty expensive but its the best out there. Hondata is out mainly because its a piggyback and i have looked into AEM but i dont know how they are. The TEC3 can be programmed just like the hondata and has much more options than anything.

THe trigger is gonna be a TEC3 (Electromotive) universal magnetic pick up which uses a 60 tooth pickup wheel. Since i know machining and Mark(the drag race dude) is a master machinist i can get stuff done for nothing. So all i have to do is just use an aluminum pully for our cars instead of our stock one and bolt the pickup wheel to it. it only costs around $150 with our school SAE discount. Or even around $200 and its good.

Ignition

The way i am going is pretty logical and its direct ignition. THe ignition can be acquired as a kit with the trigger wheel and pick up sensor. The standard DIS is two modules for two cyl each or go with a custom 4 modules for each cyl. The kit is also available from electromotive INC to be adapted easier.

Fuel

I am thinking of using an external high volume pump, but i already have one in the tank that Chris put in. I like the idea of two fuel pumps one primary and one secondary, but i am scared it might be more of a disadvantage rather than being an advantage but i dont know. i have to ask Chris on what is its flow rate (lbs/hr or psi). I dont know what kinda fuel rail would fit our stock A20 manifold, so i might get one custom made with mark's help and with my school's SAE. I dont know if i will be able to use my Adj Fuel press regulator (B&M) for this purpose and i might have to do something about the fuel filter if its gonna be a hinderence.


Sensors

The TEC3 uses MAP, MAT, O2 and Knock sensors, for primary operation. I can get hold of a 3 bar MAP sensor for around $60 thru mark and same goes to the mat sensor. The oxygen sensor is gonna be a heated wide band sensor mostlikely from Bosch. the Only unknown area is the knock sensor. I thnk we dont have one right? i am not sure, which sux cuz i am unsure about that . the ignition is taken care as mentioned.


MIS

My car is gonna be having an onboard computer running all the time to monitor different aspects on the motor and possibly every single thing i need to know about whats going on. The exhaust is gonna be custom 3" with a cat and muffler. its also gonna get a mechanical LSD if possible if not the less expensive viscous coupling and a stage 4 clutch and most probably 215 rubbers. The camber is gonna be adjusted via the prelude arms and also i am in the progress of maching my own camber plate to go bwt the knuckle and the lude arm joint using 6061 AL.


If i did miss anything or if you feel anything need to be looked at please let me know. Thanks for your advice before hand :P


---------- :D ----------

Well this goes out to both the guys with STock A20s and guys with Bseries swap.

I was reading thru some of the posts here and i was reading thru Car and Model forums and seems like Jackson Racing is a pretty nice company (even tho i like CompSports) for making superchargers for the Bseries motors.

WE also know that the Bseries Intake manifold can be modded with no hassle to fit out A20 Head. Im sure you guys know where im going with this :D

So why not have a Bseries blower on a 3g? I mean, is it hard? I ran two searches and could not find anything that would relate this. Im sure people would have thought about it, but is it that hard?

Like a turbo, you would need a fuel and spark management, better fuel delivery system and pretty much thats about it right? there is no IC so that just goes out in the dust.

I personally wont do it cause for the money, i would rather go with the more Efficient one, but if im filthy rich, i would get a blower too.

This has been boggling my mind ever since. Im a noob to forced inductions, despite the fact i understand how and why they work.

Any insights? :D

smufguy
03-02-2004, 08:37 AM
aww man.... no one has any input? :( thats sad

NXRacer
03-02-2004, 08:47 AM
this has been talked about before. Basically everybody has come to the realisation that it just wont work.

Justin86
03-02-2004, 01:46 PM
well how hard can it be to make it work, unless there isn't enough room for it. the only problem I could see is there not being enough room, and having a problem with the pulley not lining up.

smufguy
03-02-2004, 03:42 PM
so the charger itself is big? But seems like its the same size as a type R manifold tho.

http://www.jacksonracing.com/Graphics/Products/Large/jrw-989-500.jpg

http://www.jacksonracing.com/Graphics/Products/Large/989-300_1.jpg

IN this picture it looks kinda big, I have seen H22s with these and they are not that big. The only thing is that they dont push as much boost as we want them to, 12 psi max from what i read.

The charger dont have to run directly off the crank, it can run off a stepper pully like the one in the pic

Justin86
03-03-2004, 08:11 PM
yea size wise it looks like it would fit but then there is the possible pulley difference. You would have to get a custom shaft to relocated the pulley and then a belt???????

smufguy
03-03-2004, 08:17 PM
the only thing i can find which is a draw back is the max boost that you can run using a small blower like this. CHeck this out for the fitment. Its not Jackson racing, but Endyne (Engine Dynamics) superchargers.

http://www.theoldone.com/sc/type-r/induction-tube1.jpg

http://www.theoldone.com/sc/type-r/manifold.jpg

http://www.theoldone.com/sc/type-r/babytub.jpg

I wont do this myself, but someone with a lot of money who wants to be different can defenitely make this happen. If i had a second 3g, and a little bit more money, i can defenitely make it happen with given time. But hell, it was disscussed before as mentioned and its just fun to have a blown 3g.

A20A1
08-15-2004, 03:01 AM
Okay updates

Engine Management: The standalone is switched to SDS due to tunability, i dont have anyone here who knwos how to tune a TEC3 but the manager's friends and himself tune on SDS so its easier for me to get the SDS system for my management.

Turbo: The turbo is going to be T3/T04E, 57 Trim with .63 hot/ stage 3 turbine wheel.

Fuel system. I am gonna use the high pressure fuel line that i already have, high volume fuel pump, either the camero or an external fuel pump. The injectros are gonna be either the DSM 450cc or the Supra 550 cc. 450 cc works fine tho.

Clutch: Its gonna be an ACT, i dont know what stage its gonna be, but something that can support upto 300ft-lbs+ torque.

these are defenite. OTher stuff will be updated periodically.

A20A1
08-15-2004, 03:10 AM
i am going for about 300 to 350hp. and i am getting a compression test done to see how good the motor is. I am hearing a lot of talk about the turbo being really big and what not, but it should be spooled up around 3500rpm.

Yes i have looked at Sean's stuff. Talked to him about it and read about it.

SDS, Simple Digital System. http://www.sdsefi.com/ http://www.ptrsds.com/ecu.html http://www.toyotaperformance.com/sds_efi.htm

The SDS system is like the TEC3, but only different looking. I might get the TEC 3, i dont know. It all depends on what money i have by the time i get it. Also, tunability. I have to see who can tune it good. I know only one guy so far runs TEC3 on his Drag Bike, so i might ask him.

THe car is gonna be street legal, or close to. I have to still work out the issue with the EGR and see whats up with that.

The tEC3 and the SDS use GM sensors, so ur not gonna be splicing or dicing, ur gonna be changing the whole sensor itself. Besides, with the stock ECU gone, ur gonna be choosing what u wanna do and it wont matter at all. :)

Elijah
08-15-2004, 03:16 AM
The tilt.It would probily lean to far back.You have the oil filter there.If it didnt hit the firewall.

Elijah
08-15-2004, 03:28 AM
And I still got this tec3 right next to my computer desk.I know a guy with a 700whp tsi and he has the AEM and he hates it.He is getting a tec3.He said sometimes it will just decide not to read a sensor.It just acts like its not there.

A20A1
08-15-2004, 03:29 AM
This is an ancient thread really... I'm scrounging posts from this other thread and adding them here so they aren't deleted when the MOMENT comes. :D


hehe
he

he

* cough

smufguy
08-15-2004, 09:37 PM
oh i kinda figured u were doing that Mike :). Well due to financial difficulties, im starting out my turbo project real slow and not to mention, my first step was to get a spare motor and i did. I got it from steve, picked it up last thursday and this past friday, took the motor apart and cleaned it and put some oil in it to help it not rust and its sitting in my uncle's garage waiting for the time to rebuild it. The rebuild is going to start this coming fall along with some talk with ACT to get me a clutch and OPM motorsports to get me a LSD. along with this Im gonna get the TEC 3 from Elijah like i promised. (Im sorry its taking long bro, but u know i need and im getting it from you, so please do hold one for me no matter what :( ). Im working out tables for the motor with the tuner and its gonna start next fall.

Basic fuel and timing maps are gonna be done first to get the car to run and not blow up. Im still researching about cast manifolds that might be adapted to fit our blocks since tubular has not seem to be worth the strength. BUt again, im keeping Seans work in my mind and doing my homework.

Turboing the car is not an easy task esp when you dont have enough money. I still got some crazy ideas in my head and saving up money little by little to get this thing done.

I need brakes and tires sometime soon in the future and before the turbo, these have to be taken care of.

NOTE: The one u posted mike is a little too old. after talking with the Tuner, it turns out that the adaptation and the capabilites of the TEC 3 far exceedes anything on the market. Hence my jump back to tec 3 and its final. HOpefully this will be good and with Some help and god's good grace, i might be able to pull this off before next summer.

AccordEpicenter
10-24-2004, 08:02 AM
Well sounds like a good start smurf... I will tell you though, my tubular schedule-40 steel manifold i made for the accord is hella strong... say, when you downshift and engine brake, the engine will rock forward and the turbo will rest on the front beam of the car... so the manifold at times is supporting the turbo and somtimes whatever force the engine puts on it, and she hasnt cracked or anything, thats pretty damn strong. Also, youre better off removing the stock pump and running one large one than running the stock and then an inline or whatever, eventually the stock pump will become a restriction to fuel flow (even with the inline) and may cause you to lean out or somthing. I have a 255 walbro pump and itll give you all the fuel you need (supports 500hp i think). Turbochargers are more efficient than superchargers, easier to work with and cheaper too... id just go turbo

smufguy
10-24-2004, 04:17 PM
im changing the pump and the pickup and the whole line upto the filter. Im still running numbers here and seems like Elijah is gonna be my awsome companion cause he got some stuff i have in mind. I can see his car being an awsome 3g with custom pretty much everything. But as of now, im getting a list of parts i need made so that i dont miss out. Cant wait to take this car to the show next year and win some stuff :D

AccordEpicenter
11-01-2004, 06:05 AM
if i were you id get rid of the filter back by the tank (carbed guys) and just run an efi filter up front

Oldblueaccord
01-24-2005, 05:59 AM
I no this is old thred but the title thru me off for a while. I just got around to reading it.

Anyone ever call Jackson racing about there kits? I wonder if they have a universal kit available they dont list. I think the a20/b16 intake SC would make a nice package. Oscar Jackson has his shittogehter been around a long time so I like the idea of a proven system.

I 'd like to get my hands on a Eaton SC raw just to try and fit one up myself. SCC has a nice pic. of the output side its a funky wedge shape but not impossible to make a manifold adapter for it.


wp

smufguy
01-24-2005, 08:11 AM
the only problem with the supercharger is that the pully end is not long enough to reach the crank wheel. And the other thing is, the supercharger kit is pretty expensive and you for a close financial investment (turbo vs modifying a sc or getting a custom sc made) you will be pushing a lot less power by using a sc than a turbo. THere is a rumor that there is a 3g with a B18 and a supercharger. I got a pic of it somewhere and it already has wilwood 4piston brakes that i wanna have. So for the money vs performance, i would rather get the turbo and tune it, rather than go for the supercharger.

Justin86
01-25-2005, 07:38 AM
yea the only way possible to do a super would be to get the Vortech style thats on the 350's. Have to remove the P/S and A/C, but it would be your best chance

smufguy
01-25-2005, 09:18 AM
MIke did an amazing job editing the posts and clearing the threads with no proper information. Well oldblueaccord the problem is this, pretty much all electicals need to be like the the turbo and so is the tuning, cause its forced induction. Justin mentioned a good point, vortec and paxton make centrifugal superchargers for many cars and comptech makes the same one for B series motors. No matter what, you need to run a custom bracket for the supercharger to mount and braces to hold it in place when the motor is spinning at 6000rpm. Like i mentioned earlier, power output is not gonna be the same since the pressure you can run on the superchargers is limited. Other main hurdle is find a belt and a pully that will satisfy the design on the crank pully cause those are all serpantine belts except for the power steering. So yeah, its a considerable amount of work, but its upto each its own how to make things work.

Oldblueaccord
01-25-2005, 11:43 PM
Well form your 5th post that pic to me looks alot like our motor set up on the front side. They changed the alt. pulley and are running it off that.

I'm not looking into much boost 6 psi would be fine for me.

I hate to call a company since I'm not willing to spend the money right now but I think I will just for the sake of it. Himm a sale.


http://www.jacksonracing.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=33368

They got parts list and instrution in PDF. My popup blocker wont let make the links.


I dont think there 's much to JRS kit except an FMU. There made to go onto stock cars they are CARB legal. You can upgrade now to some kinda piggy back computer with the larger pulley.

wp

smufguy
01-26-2005, 05:27 AM
here is the reason why the roots type wont work, we just simply dont have enough room. on our cars, the crank pully sits pretty close to the box frame and the strut tower leans in between the motor itself and the intake manifold. so it would be really hard to figure out how to run the belt since the supercharger sticks out with its pully. also, the brake system (master cyl and resevoir) are in the way of the supercharger positioning. if any, we gotta go from the front. so like mentioned, vortex or paxton or a smaller comptech would be your best bet.

http://img161.exs.cx/img161/3919/engine17tx.jpg

here are some of the ways you can do your set up if you want

http://www.vf-engineering.com/images/mk3vr6-enginebay.jpg

http://hondatuningmagazine.com/features/0205htht_comptech_04_zoom_zoom.jpg

Oldblueaccord
01-27-2005, 03:22 PM
Thanks man good pics. I 'll start a new supercharging thread when I get some more info. Sorry about the hijack.


wp

smufguy
01-27-2005, 07:24 PM
its cool, soon they will be deleated. ;)

Oldblueaccord
01-27-2005, 11:17 PM
its cool, soon they will be deleated. ;)

If you dont mind hold on to em so when I start my thread I can use that stuff. I was just gonna referance it with a link.

wp

smufguy
01-28-2005, 06:15 AM
If you dont mind hold on to em so when I start my thread I can use that stuff. I was just gonna referance it with a link.

wp

lol i cant do anything to the thread, mike (a20A1) will clean the clutter up for future reference on the threads. So ur better of copying and pasting it to your new thread.

A20A1
01-28-2005, 01:27 PM
.
.Hey look at my turbo accord
.
http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=37169
.
.
.
Nah, it's just the turbo FAQ, people really need to start using the info there.. I did the hard part for them.

modu03
01-30-2005, 08:14 PM
if you really wanted to go supercharged... this would probably be the most likely candidate for our cars
http://www.jacksonracing.com/Graphics/Products/Large/jrw-989-100.jpg

this is for an 88-91 civic/crx ex/si... I believe that manifold works for our cars, correct me if i'm wrong

the only modification you might need is the bracket that replaces the upper alternator bracket.

A20A1
05-07-2005, 09:55 AM
It may appear to be the most likely candidate but please read the thread below... it list 4 factors that may make the Jackson less of a good choice over vortech or other centrifugal blowers.
http://www.3geez.com/showpost.php?p=440728&postcount=2
.
.
.

89T
02-11-2012, 07:41 PM
I am bumping every old turbo thread. Is it running or gone.