Where can I find these Forged Parts?

[Dionysis24bt]

Ok, I was wondering where I could find Forged Pistons and Rods for my A20A3 88' Lx-i Accord. I will be going either TURBO or a full NA build up soon since my Accord is down and I have another car. Also, will any other Honda/Acura forged pistons and rods fit my A20A3, if so please let me know. I was also wondering if I went the NA route, could I bore my A20A out to an 2.2L and use the infamous H22A 10.6/1 compression pistons? If not where would I be able to have so custom 11.0/1 compression pistons made for my 2.0L A20A? Thanks for all your help!!!!!!!!!!!!

[johndej]

don't need two exact same posts but your allowed newbie mistakes.

[shepherd79]

call diamond. they make pistons for our cars. but you have to call them and tell them what you want.
also, talk to a member by name "SEAN". he can get you anything you want. his website www.accordcentral.com

borring out is not recomended. the walls between cylinders are too thin for that. stay 2.0L and you will be happy.

[smufguy]

OKay here is the big mistake. if i remember correctly sean was talking about our bore size being a weird ass 82.5 mm or something. well with two honda shop manuals, he is wrong. The bore is of 82.70 - 82.71 mm and the piston skirt size should be of 82.67 – 82.68 mm ( Piston A ) , 82.66 – 82.67 mm ( Piston B).

I just had to say it so that ppl wont be misguided.

Since our A20 is an open deck, u cannot bore out the A20 to ur satisfactory 2.2L. so best bet is to stroke it out and then the problem comes to who is gonna grind your crank. I know our crank is pretty solid, but the fillet grooves need to be perfect without any small nick, cause in about a few runs, ur gonna brake the crank under boost. Also, the ratio need to be kept to a perfect number to be on the safer side. So get those numbers from a good engine builder and get ur rods and pistons ordered. and have a good shop machine ur crank for a stroker. BUt IMO, keep everything factory spec on the A20 with just a different piston head and the rod (If u need it) balance the crank out and just add boost accordingly. Heavier bottom end does not rev up quicker like the lighter bottom ends.

Diamond can make u anysize custom forged pistons u want. but also u need to get matching rings to accomodate what kinda purpose this piston is gonna be used for.

[AccordEpicenter]

i believe shotpeened stock rods are comparable and or lighter weight than big H beam rods, and forged pistons are lighter than the stock cast ones. Uhh Smurf, we are closed deck... Boring anything more than .030 over is asking for cracks between the cylinders tho... why the hell would you want to stroke an already long stroking engine?

[smufguy]

hmmm i was guessing it and checked MIke lee's website, then i realised i was looking at his, B20A. my bad

[AccordEpicenter]

b20a is closed deck also

[customandsound]

i can peen your con rod's ,,,,

[smufguy]

This is a technically right open deck block

http://www.histomobile.com/histomob/internet/techniqu/118-10.jpg

Here is the bottom end of a B20A, So yeah it can be considered as a shitty closed deck. But not a good closed deck as the domestic motors. So i guess im wrong both times, but i always considered our blocks to be open decks, cause u just cant bore them out :(

http://www.geocities.com/mikelee000/Dscf0085.jpg

and the head

http://www.geocities.com/mikelee000/Dscf0086.jpg

[Dionysis24bt]

Ok, so I can bore up to .030 over with no problem, shouldn't consider stroking because it's a long stroking motor anyway, would be better having my stock rods shot-peened from what I have read, have my crank knife-edged, polished, and balanced, and get forged pistons made. Anyone know the website for Diamond? What should I do about an exhaust manifold for TURBO? What is the best material to make it out of stainless or mild 16-gauge? I'm sorry for milking you guy's for all this info, just need help to do which ever route I decide to go RIGHT THE FIRST TIME AROUND!! Also, would a T3/T4 turbo be to big with 9.0/1 compression or would a smaller turbo like say a T28 or T3 be better? Thanks again!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NXRacer]

the best way to answer all of your turbo questions is to search. There are a TON of helpful threads about this subject. Give yourself a couple hours and read whats available and what you should do, then come back if you have questions that havent been answered before.

Not trying to be a jerk, its just that your questions have been asked (and answered) QUITE a few times already.

[86LXItooFAST4me]

This is a technically right open deck block

http://www.histomobile.com/histomob/internet/techniqu/118-10.jpg

Here is the bottom end of a B20A, So yeah it can be considered as a shitty closed deck. But not a good closed deck as the domestic motors. So i guess im wrong both times, but i always considered our blocks to be open decks, cause u just cant bore them out :(

http://www.geocities.com/mikelee000/Dscf0085.jpg

and the head

http://www.geocities.com/mikelee000/Dscf0086.jpg

:redx: :lock:

[Dionysis24bt]

I've been searching for over a month, I've even visited Sean's website to see what he had to offer. I've come up empty as of now. I know the next step is to plan out my head work. I've searched High and Low on this also, I was thinking of using the valves, retainers, seats, and springs from another Honda/Acura say a B16 or B18 maybe. If I have my head worked and have the valves enlarged this should be doable right?

[NXRacer]

your best bet for finding replacement upgrade head parts would be to talk to sean. He's got a high performance head package with upgraded springs, retainers and valves. Maybe he'd be willing to sell those to you and then you could find a shop locally who could do the machine and assembly work or whatever you need. I've heard the b-series head parts dont work with our motors, but i'm not 100% sure on this.

or you could just shell out the $1400 for the high performance head from AC.com

[Dionysis24bt]

I just visited Sean's website, the head package for $1400 says that it is not for street use. I don't think I'm going to be attempting to make anywhere near 500HP that the head is said to be able to support. 270 to 300whp will be well more than enough to out run just about everything here in Durham, NC. I would say that $1400 head pakage is not worth it, unless it would give me an extra 50+HP NA. I wonder how much power that Racing head and his 400HP prepped Short block makes with the GM EFI. If somewhere in the 200HP range, hell Sean I would say the hell with Turbo. I'd just add a 75 to 90-shot of NOS and be happy as hell with NA. Hey Sean if your out there "you have any NUMBERS on this set-up!!!!!!!!!!!"

[k-roy]

I've been searching for over a month, I've even visited Sean's website to see what he had to offer. I've come up empty as of now. I know the next step is to plan out my head work. I've searched High and Low on this also, I was thinking of using the valves, retainers, seats, and springs from another Honda/Acura say a B16 or B18 maybe. If I have my head worked and have the valves enlarged this should be doable right?
Dude just get a B if you want to go through all that hastle.

[Dionysis24bt]

I would invest in a B16A, but the engine would cost me about $1350 and the shop here in Raleigh, NC was talking about charging me $3500 to swap the motor in that's with all the mounts, hubs, tranny, ecu, linkage, axles, blah blah blah you get the picture. All that for a whopping what maybe 130whp and no torque. I don't think the B is worth $3500.

[AccordEpicenter]

but the engine would cost me about $1350 and the shop here in Raleigh, NC was talking about charging me $3500 to swap the motor in that's with all the mounts, hubs, tranny, ecu, linkage, axles, blah blah blah you get the picture. All that for a whopping what maybe 130whp and no torque. I don't think the B is worth $3500.

For 3500 you could have a nice boosted setup and go way faster

[rjudgey]

Well their is a way you can get a high performance head for less money but depends on your supply of spare parts!!

I've just completed a big valve conversion that is not only better but cheaper to do than anything else that's been done before!

What you need is 12 standard honda exhaust valves and a couple for spares.
These valves are of a very high quality and will need a good machinist and equipment to profile them to a nice shape.

8 of the valve will need cutting down to size the maximum that the stock seats will handle is 33mm so your gaining a whopping 3mm per valve.

Obviously with that size increase your gonna have to remove a ton of metal out of the ports the feed them properly and if your running carbs you will loose quite a bit of low end pull below 2K. But when it picks up to 3-4K it goes mental upto whatever your cam specs are 285 duration works well upto 7.5K-8K but a 295 wit 11mm lift will be stonking if your head is fully ported and flowed probably a powerband of about 4-8.5K.

But because your using the exhaust valves you need to convert the inlet guides to the same size just get them reamed out to same stem size which if their worn is good becauase they'll be like new without having to change them, also because the exhaust valves are different you have to use the springs, platforms and retainers but this is good as the exhaust springs and platforms are a much better rate than the inlets as they are stiffer and use double springs, they have good clearance for long lift. I'm running all 12 valves on A20 head exhaust valves and srpings and they seem to work perfect with my 285 duration cam.

3 angle seats were cut on all seats, the inlets have a 20 degree top cut straight into the ally so it blends straight in to the chamber roof. a 60 degree bottom cut which is then bored out to 29mm and radiused into the port wall. Standard throat size on the valve seats are 26mm so your gaining a whopping 3mm in port area times that by 8 inlet valves!!

Only things you need to buy are spare sets of valves, and retainers so go raid the scrapyards, then get your guides reemed out, seats cut and port and flow out to suit you can do that bit yourself if you have the tools or leave it with the machine shop to do and if they have a flow bench even better!!

[Sean]

the problem is the shape of the valve themselves. weve done lots of flow bench testing and the tulip shape of the stock valves really kills flow.

[rjudgey]

i agree thats why i had them re-profiled to a more suitable shape, tulip shape is only a benefit for top end power and cams with huge lift 400 thou+ then they'll be better but unless you plan in running a powerband of 5-9k stick with a flatter profile which will be good for 3-7k band.
but initial testing before being banned from driving was good going up 3mm in size has given the 3-7k powerband a huge boost need to try a different cam profile and add a header, then we'll see about maybe an a20 head with b18 itb manifold with 50mm itb's! now that would be sweet!
but for now gonna modify the carbs a little more machined some new chokes with 43mm bore size hopefully that'll help when i put my new cam in which will be about 295 duration and 12mm lift then i'll start to get really motoring!! trying to break into 13's with n/a setup thats me goal also trying to get 250bhp as well getting close but still loads left to do! probably will end up needing some forged high cr pistons and set of rods though!
hey sean any chance of you making up some titanium wrist pins for those rod and piston combos you had made? i'll be buying some new kit soon for a new motor old one is getting tired plus i don't think i'll break over 220bhp with the low cr i have at the mo!!

[Sean]

hmm no need for titanium parts to be honest. i can get some lieght wieght pistons made when they get me the sets i already have orderded in. fucking nascar season.

[Dionysis24bt]

Rjudgey, how much HP are you making with the NA setup that you have now? Also how much Money have you invested into your A20 to get to this point? People keep telling me to invest in a B-series, and then TURBO. Like I stated earlier, the best I found around here in NC was $3500 for the entire swap with a B16A. No telling how much more it would be with B18C!!! Then to Turbo either one of those engines would be another $2 to 2.5 grand!! I think for a lot less that $6000, I could have a mean A20A wouldn't any of you agree?

[rjudgey]

well trouble with asking me that is i could quite easily say yeah cost me $20K but thats after about 10 different re-builds to get it where it is now!! Obviosuly these are with different head and block combos i'm sure Sean would probably say a similar figure!! But because Sean and I have allready done the hard graft and found out what works and what doesn't it means that whenever we build a new engine up or if anyone else asks us for parts or howto build a good engine up it cost you guy's quite frankly peanuts!! Which is why i allways keep a few things back form you lot as i don't want all of you having 200+bhp beasts!! I like to be at least one or two steps ahead of the comp!! Getting difficult now though as i'm runing out of mods to do!!
But unfotunately for me the next mod i really need to do is gonna cost me a fortune kinda shot meself in the foot with this Big valve conversion, yes it flows really nicely but i've gotten to the point now where i've maxed out my Webers and i need to get some 50mm Individual Throttle bodies to really get the maximum benefit of the new head!! I'm finding that the top end power is being strangled by the 40mm chokes i've got in my carbs i've got one last chance which is to mod the carbs and the chokes but this will only gain me abother 3mm max i can go is 43mm OD i've also modded the butterfly spindles to get more air in as well so hopefully this will be enough to get me buy untill i can afford an Injection setup, at that point i'll also switch to the A20 head which is definately the one to go for ultimately for top BHP and high revs. A18 head was excellent for low-mid torque which when the car was used as a road car a lot this was better for me but now i have another one for normally road use and has a big I.C.E install it's only for race use and occasional road use so i don't mind loosing low end torque to gain more revs and a better top end powerband.
But at the mo gonna work with what i have which is my A18/A20 hybrid with 41mm inlet ports, 33mm inlet valves, maybe go down a bit on the cam might help got a 285 duration and 10mm lift was gonna get a 295 with 11.5mm lift but i think that will make things worse!! Weber 45's modded with 43mm choke size and possibly get electromotive HPX crank fired ignition system got a everything else sorted now nothing else left to do but muck about with the different heads and valve shapes, and then save up for Fully mappable ITB setup but at about $3-4K thats gonna take a while!!
I think if it were turboed it wouldn't be too bad as the turno would be pushing the air in it needs but being naturally aspirated it a whole load more touchy about things you try!! I had it running pretty sweet before probably the best road setup you could get flat torque from top to bottom, good powerband 2.5K-7.5K and would rev upto 8K with reasonable power was about 190-200bhp roughly my readouts gave me about 176whp and that was with a cast manifold and pretty much everything was moddified std parts.
Now the engine is more powerfull but i've lost power below 2K and the powerband starts at 3-7K but in this zone it's unbelievable really is seriously quick i've managed to get it running a bit better pulled to 7.5K okay the other night but i can't tinker with it as i'm banned for driving for another 9 days!! Real pain in the arse.
But as far as price goes each new engine just cost me machining time and also any new parts i use gaskets, pistons, rings etc. I have about enough spares for 4 complete engines and enough for two B20A's! Which i'm possibly looking at using later on but i don't like them as much as A20 is far easier to setup and maintain than a B20A their over complex good head but as i like to swap thing about on a monthly basis it's not really practical, also all these pics of B20A blocks their not even a B20A!! The insides of my B20A's don't look like that!!
As far as Seans engines go hell if i didn't live in the U.K i'd buy his complete engines the price he knocks out his head and block packages it's hardly worth me bothering to do mine myself!!
Next engine though is a A18 with A20 head re-bore to A18 block, some lovely High CR ration pistons from Sean i reckon if i go with 11:1 then i'll probably end up with about 10-10.5:1 as the amount of metal you have to get out the chambers to get them to flow good is unbelievable i think my CR is really low at the mo didn't hav eto to calculate it yet but i don't think i want to!! probably about 9:1 or something daft maybe i should stick a turbo on!!
But lovely forged High CR pistons, uprated Eagle rods, my Big valve conversion, new inlet manifold from B18C converted to fit A20, 50mm Taper bore ITB's with custom ECU package maybe Electromotive or similar, new cam profile 295 duration 11.5mm lift that little lot should be good for easy 250bhp and a powerband of between 4-9K
What you reckon Sean sound like a solid plan!!
P.S so you don't think titanium pins are worth bothering with? i just thought any weight i can loose the better even if it's with lighter forged pistons!!
whats the easiest way of getting a set of eagle rods and high CR forged pistons to the U.K also can you work us out a price for a set of 4 and set of 8 cheers!! The exchange rate is really good at the mo 1.82 dollars to the pound so i may get soon thanks. Depends on whether i get the electromotive ignition or not what do you think of their Kit?

[Sean]

nah titanium wrist pins are more money then there worth. ligth wietgh tapered wall h11 tool sttel or 4340 chromoly pins would work better and be stronger and have more elsticity on the long hual. the pistons themselsve for a n/a application can be made substiantially lighter to.

Sincerly
Sean

Email me directly

[email protected]

[Dionysis24bt]

Rjudgey that is pretty damn impressive if I say so myself. 176whp and you don't even have electronic fuel-injection. I want reach between 180 and 200 whp. I have an A20A3 PGM-FI. Alot of this information that you have given me is really helpful and I really appreciate it. I heard people talk about the B16 and B18 intake mani. swaps, is this project really beneficial? Sean how much estimated HP would you say your Racing Head would add to the A20A3?

[smufguy]

B-series manifold is for highly tuned cars that can utelize the higher revs to make power. not for a stock A20.

For a turbo, stick with the stock efi cam. u will be happy, believe it or not, the valve seat of the A20A1 is larger thatn the A20A3, if that does u any good. oh its for the exhaust valve alone.

[rjudgey]

just because a car has carbs doesn't mean it's gonna not be possible to get big bhp top fuel dragsters still use holley carbs, likewise mine uses Weber racing sidedraught carbs to get a FI setup that would beat that i'd have to spend $3-4k. each of my cylinders is fed by a single 43mm bore and 45mm butterfly, stock FI has a single 54mm butterfly and bore feeding all 4 cylinders! 4 the money you just can't beat webers obviously if i won the lottery i'd put FI ITB's on straight away but they'd be 50mm ones!
you have to be carefull what you do to your car you tend to have to do things bit by bit or do everything at once or things will go horribly wrong!

[Sean]

Rjudgey that is pretty damn impressive if I say so myself. 176whp and you don't even have electronic fuel-injection. I want reach between 180 and 200 whp. I have an A20A3 PGM-FI. Alot of this information that you have given me is really helpful and I really appreciate it. I heard people talk about the B16 and B18 intake mani. swaps, is this project really beneficial? Sean how much estimated HP would you say your Racing Head would add to the A20A3?


On a stock engine my head is worth around 20 hp ,with supporting modifications its can generate substiantial poower gains everywhere in the power band.

[smufguy]

just because a car has carbs doesn't mean it's gonna not be possible to get big bhp top fuel dragsters still use holley carbs, likewise mine uses Weber racing sidedraught carbs to get a FI setup that would beat that i'd have to spend $3-4k. each of my cylinders is fed by a single 43mm bore and 45mm butterfly, stock FI has a single 54mm butterfly and bore feeding all 4 cylinders! 4 the money you just can't beat webers obviously if i won the lottery i'd put FI ITB's on straight away but they'd be 50mm ones!
you have to be carefull what you do to your car you tend to have to do things bit by bit or do everything at once or things will go horribly wrong!

carbs make more power than fuel injection? is that what you're saying? oh by the way, those top fuel dragsters ur talking about, they dont use 2.0L 4 cylinders either. its a given fact that you dont get the tuneability and the driveability of the fuel injection if you compare it to a carb.

[rjudgey]

read the post carefully and were not talking about stock carbs and yes racing carbs do produce more power than Honda pgm-fi and if you read more carefully i was stating i'd love ITB FI setup but you'd have to win the lottery to afford it whereas race carbs you can pretty much pickup at less than half the price which makes them ideal for us amateur racers who have a limited budget!
just don't even go there with the whole carb versus injection argument been there done several times on different forums!!
if weber 45 dcoe's were so bad a7on that!

[smufguy]

read the post carefully and were not talking about stock carbs and yes racing carbs do produce more power than Honda pgm-fi and if you read more carefully i was stating i'd love ITB FI setup but you'd have to win the lottery to afford it whereas race carbs you can pretty much pickup at less than half the price which makes them ideal for us amateur racers who have a limited budget!
just don't even go there with the whole carb versus injection argument been there done several times on different forums!!
if weber 45 dcoe's were so bad a7on that!

my intention is not to argue over it, i was just merely asking you a question based on the very first line of ur post thats all. Cause seemed like u were implying something, but i was not sure of it. yeah ITBs are great, but u can still get an affordable one off of ebay for the B16 and B18s. they are not royal expensive. :)

[rjudgey]

No worries but over here in U.K ITB's are still way expensive it's not so much the cost of the throttle bodies that's the problem it's the cost of everything thats needed to go with it!! Fuel tank, fuel lines, pump, wiring harness, ECU, mapping time, sensors, fitting the sensors etc. etc.
If i were to go ITB i would like a nice pair of 50mm Roller barrels they look weird!! but work well!!
These days you can pick up a pair of good weber 45's for about £200 about $350 so they still gonna win in a price war!! But hey at least they all share the same inlet manifold!!