Pilot bearing????

[shepherd79]

hey guys,
i am changing my tranny and i found out that my tranny from 86 carbed accord has smaller tip on the imput shaft. when i compared to my new tranny it has wide tip on the end of the shaft. i guess that may explain my i blew my brand new clutch.
anyway, my american dad says that i have to change the pilot bearing.
the problem i don't remember if there is any or not.
i didn't bring my honda shop manual with me (kicking myself).
if anyone knows the answer tell me.
thanks.

[k-roy]

I think the Pilot bearing is what American car componies call the throwout bearing.
When I purchased my clutch it came with a new throwout bearing.
Technically no you don't have to change it but yes it is a good idea to replace it.

[shepherd79]

no throwout bearing is throwout bearing.
the pilot bearing is something bolts to the crank and flywheel goes overtop of it.
i never heard of that, but my american dad says that every american car has them so honda should have one too. i am not too sure about it.,
so i am going to prove him that honda doesn't have pilot bearing.

['89AccordLX(Rus)]

I don't think the Accords have a pilot bearing, or a pilot bushing. Different models may have different flywheels however. Also, how would the size of the tip on the input shaft affect anything? I don't think it comes in contact with anything (on American cars the input shaft rides in the pilot bearing). I also checked the Honda EPC diagrams and there is no mention of any pilot bearing.

[cruznz]

Alex, if you have the tranny off, look where the tip of the input shaft fits, see if you can see the bronze,(normally) bushing, i haven't done a clutch on a honda for awhile so cant recall if there was 1 or not,

[SteveDX89]

A20 does not have a pilot bearing.

[shepherd79]

ok i figured out this one.
On 87 and older models there was pilot bushing. since the end of the input shaft is smaller on 86-87 accord and prelude you will need pilot bushing. they are awailabe ay any autoparts stores.
on 88-89 accord, the end of the input shaft is bigger in diameter, so it doesn't need pilot bushing.
So just remember, if you are going to install 86-87 tranny use pilot bushing.
I learn something everyday.

PS. thank god i am doing this swap because my clutch i put in 6 month ago without pilot bearing is almost gone. any longer and it would probably shadder.

thanks a lot guys for your replies.

[LX-incredible]

ok i figured out this one.
On 87 and older models there was pilot bushing. since the end of the input shaft is smaller on 86-87 accord and prelude you will need pilot bushing. they are awailabe ay any autoparts stores.
on 88-89 accord, the end of the input shaft is bigger in diameter, so it doesn't need pilot bushing.
So just remember, if you are going to install 86-87 tranny use pilot bushing.
I learn something everyday.

PS. thank god i am doing this swap because my clutch i put in 6 month ago without pilot bearing is almost gone. any longer and it would probably shadder.

thanks a lot guys for your replies.

Sorry to bring back the dead, but I screwed up and swapped the gears out of an 87 teg. Trans went together with no problems, but I can't seem to find a bushing to fit in the 88 flywheel to accommodate the smaller shaft tip. Both the flywheel on the teg and an 87 accord were missing the bushing. All the auto parts stores only list a bearing and one flywheel for all model years. The ID of the bearing is correct, but it doesn't fit in the flywheel. Does anyone have a part number for the correct bushing?

[russiankid]

I thought the input shaft does not come in contact with the flywheel at all. It goes through the clutch disc and thats it, correct?

[LX-incredible]

Optimally yes, but at higher RPMs or when the mainshaft bearings wear it's going to want to shimmy around in there. The tip of the input shaft inserts into the flywheel and a bushing that inserts through the back of the flywheel. The bushing on the 86-87 is considerably thicker than the 88-89.

[nswst8]

Sorry to bring back the dead, but I screwed up and swapped the gears out of an 87 teg. Trans went together with no problems, but I can't seem to find a bushing to fit in the 88 flywheel to accommodate the smaller shaft tip. Both the flywheel on the teg and an 87 accord were missing the bushing. All the auto parts stores only list a bearing and one flywheel for all model years. The ID of the bearing is correct, but it doesn't fit in the flywheel. Does anyone have a part number for the correct bushing?


I believe that NAPA can help you match up a brass bushing, just use a measuring tool to get the correct size. Our trannies are not going to list a pilot bearing. Sometimes clutch companies throw in pilot bearing but thats because the clutch kit will fit other vehicles.

[LX-incredible]

Thanks, I'll give them a try.

[AccordEpicenter]

even though there is a spot for the pilot bearing, and auto parts stores seem to be able to get one for these cars, ive never ever seen a honda come from the factory with one. Wierd, but you should be fine without one

[LX-incredible]

There is a spot for the bushing NOT a bearing. All the parts stores list is a bearing out of the earlier accords and civics. It won't fit without machining both the flywheel and crank. The bushing inserts into the back of the flywheel and has been present on all 3 of the 88-89 flywheels I have removed and the aftermarket I had a look at. It's very thin and easy to overlook. The mainshaft bearings feel solid, but I doubt I would get away with leaving it out. They put those things in there for a reason, don't they?

[2oodoor]

definatley use one if you can , it is a lot better on the input shaft..better on the clutch hardware too.

[LX-incredible]

NAPA doesn't have anything. I went through the book after the guy at the counter. Only things that came close were some needle bearings, but those are too damn deep. Someone here has to have the part number or at least know what vehicle it was originally for.

Has anyone machined the flywheel to fit the bearing they show, or does the crank need to be machined as well?

[Ichiban]

I'm not sure why you'd need one. The input shaft is supported by bearings located in the housing at both ends and is rigid, compared to a transmission that puts the output shaft inline with the input shaft and uses an unsupported bearing to separate the two. This design is common in RWD vehicles.

[LX-incredible]

Might not, but I can only see it lengthening the life of the clutch and mainshaft bearings. I'm pretty hard on my vehicles, and would hate to destroy something if it could be prevented.

[nswst8]

Have a bearing made. You should have a local machine shop near you somewhere. or go to the local community college auto machine shop and have them crank you one out.

[Ichiban]

Someone measure the bore and OD, and get the clearance spec from the service manual. I can make a zillion of these things in my spare time, but like I said, I don't understand why you need one.

[nswst8]

There you go.

[Oldblueaccord]

The needle bearing sounds correct for some stuff. Newer NV type transmissions use them in 4wd rwd applications. More of my usuless GM tech.

info.http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/search/?D=act&Ntt=act&Dx=mode+matchall&Ntk=brand&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&N=6982&Nty=1

I hate this site but it list a bunch for Hondas.




wp

[LX-incredible]

Someone measure the bore and OD, and get the clearance spec from the service manual. I can make a zillion of these things in my spare time, but like I said, I don't understand why you need one.

Cause it would make me feel better about my first tranny rebuild! :lol:

No, I'm sure it will be okay. Bearings seemed good and everything was in spec. I've got the measurements and will type them up in my usual format tonight. The stock bushings had a flange on the back end. Looks sort of like this: _l l_ Would there be any way to incorporate that? If not it shouldn't be a problem. I'd be willing to give whatever you wanted for a couple. Thanks man.

[LX-incredible]

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9479/pilotbushingej3.jpg

[Ichiban]

Material?

Also, these measurements have to be extremely accurate, as a difference of .002 means the difference between a one thou press and one thou of slop. What are you measuring with? Calipers? T gauge and micrometer?

Just stuff I need to know.

[LX-incredible]

Most of the pilot bearings I looked at were 60% bronze 40% iron.

I measured with calipers. The micrometers I have won't go that small. Checked everything several times, should be good.

[Ichiban]

Sorry for the way late response on this, I'm horrible for loosing track of threads I've posted in. PM me any time if you want to rattle my dish.

That being said, I was thinking back to my millwright lectures the other day. Specifically in regards to how many bearings should support a shaft, usually only two. Reason being, unless you can ensure that your crankshaft bore is sitting perfectly aligned with the input shaft, you actually stress all the bearings and accelerate failure, while using only the 2 bearings allows the shaft to self-locate within the clearances designed into the bearings. (I realize engine crankshafts completely ignore this idea, but their bores are line-honed into one rigid casting.)

Either way, I can make you a bushing. It will be 100% brass. I don't quite have the technology to make sintered oilite bearings yet. I just don't really think you want or need it.

[2oodoor]

It is a bushing not a bearing isn't it?
It only serves as a guide and reduces shock to the input shaft. I don't think the shaft actually bears on it, like if you have a worn pilot bushing you indeed have troubles and it ain't the bushing.

[Ichiban]

Aaugh...

A bearing is either plain, made of two parts, usually a layer over some sort of backing, or has revolving/rolling elements.

A bushing is solid, being composed of one piece of material throughout.

The reason behind the pilot bearing is to locate the front of the input shaft in systems that have no other manner of doing it. Our trannys' input shafts already are supported by two bearings internally, so there's no point to the pilot bearing(bushing).

[2oodoor]

Either way, I can make you a bushing. It will be 100% brass. .

you should just agree with me :uh:
http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/clutches_etc.htm

[Ichiban]

Thanks, roodoo. Everyone here should read that page.

However: (argument always)

1. The pilot "device" is only needed if the input shaft isn't already located by 2 supported bearings. As our FWD trannys are, they don't need the pilot bearing.

2. "bushing" and "bearing" refer to the design of the device. Technically, a bearing with rolling elements is termed "anti-friction bearing" a bearing with no rolling elements but with an overlay over a backing, "plain bearing" or "journal bearing", and a bearing of a single material and no rolling elements, "bushing".

3. The Machinery's Handbook will explain further, if you have any doubts.

[Ichiban]

Alright, turns out that I'll be working out of the shop doing 12 hour shifts for the rest of the week, and probably Saturday. This weekend was our Thanksgiving weekend, so I drove 17 hours in the 2g to my parents house and back....Excuses excuses.

Also, it turns out oilite has to be sintered into shape. Trying to machine it causes it to explode, but we have brass now.

So hopefully by Sunday, I can turn out a couple of bushings for you.

[LX-incredible]

Badass, Thanks man.