1988 LXi not starting

[Dncdesign]

Well, The "one" to the left under my NIC indicating my first post is a clear indication that I've found this site seeking help.

I'm tracking down a problem that started when my Accord shut off driving down the road. A little background for you first. I bought this vehicle new in '88 and 172,000 miles seems to be the breaking point of the OEM parts. My original plans were to keep it for 250,000 miles. Not including the regular high maintenance items such as water pumps, I've been fairly fortunate.

The first thing I did was check for the fuel pump to run for 2-second. NOPE, no nosie. Then I checked the 15 amp fuse. Good fuse. Even if it was the relay, I figured that since the pump was OEM it needed replacing. So I rolled the dice and put one in. The pump runs for 2-seconds but the car didnt start. I pulled a plug (didnt even look wet) and asked an old friend, and good auto mechanic, to see if there was an arc across the gap. NOPE no spark. Hmmm, OK, he pulled the wire on the coil and there was only an arc for a second when I first turned the key but it then stopped.

This is strange.

Your input and suggestions are appreciated.


thanks in advance.

Dnc

[shepherd79]

check the coil, it may be your coil died. it happened to me ones.
you don't have to buy OEM coil. you can buy any aftermarket one. check "How to" for installation.

[Dncdesign]

Thanks Shep, I do appreciate the advice.

In this case a coil doesn't fall in line with the fuel pump not running for 2-seconds prior to the installation of the new one.

Why does there seem to be a dry plug (no fuel) and why is there no arc accross the gaps.

There has to be a control that ties all these together.

My twisted process thinking is looking for something else that I'm unfamilar with.


Dnc

[Keachman1]

Dnc,

looking at the schematic, it looks like there are 3 fuses that can have an effect on the fuel pump relay. Fuse 1 under the hood, fuse 1 under the dash, and depending on the transmission, auto has fuse 10 under dash fuse or manual has in line fuse under the dash. There is also a complete manual you can download too if you search for it.

I would check the coil resistance, ignitor, and the distributor. The manual has all the details of testing each component. The manual is also broken down by system so you don't have to donwload the whole manual if you don't have DSL. Good luck and let us know what you found out.

Mike

[Dncdesign]

Mike wins a cookie, Thank you.

I thot this may be the problem but didnt want plant any seeds in others minds. There had to be a circuit that didn't complete, but even stranger is that the old pump won't even do the 2-second prime. 'strange'. May be, just may be it got burned out in the shortening process? ???

BUT, how about the 'fuel cutoff relay'?

The EFI relay is under the drivers side on side panel. I need that manual and I saw the manual that was posted here and lost the URL.. www.something.RU I can show the owner of that file how to lighten some of his dark scanned pages if he wishes,, it's simple using Macromedia FireWorks or PhotoShop.


Thanks in advance......

Dnc

[Keachman1]

The link is attached below:

http://www.pauldesign.ru/honda/shopmanual.html

He went to alot of trouble scanning all those pages and it has helped me a bunch.

I don't see a fuel cutoff relay on EFI. That is on a carbed accord. The manual I'm looking at shows the fuel pump being control by the main EFI relay which is behind the drivers side kick panel.

This relay also supplies power to your injectors.

I don't see a connection between the no spark and fuel pump unless it's a main power supply problem which could be in the ignition switch. I would check to make sure your are getting 12 V to your coil.

[Dncdesign]

First,

I understand that it’s rude for a newbie to bounce right on in asking questions without introducing oneself. So, look on this junk site I have, ‘a picture is worth a thousand words’.. (DSL/Cable suggested), http://www.geocities.com/tmggolf/Images.html


I got a chance to check out several things.

Although not the root cause, the following was affected.
1. Since the Fuel Pump 'was' an OEM. It was replaced.
2. Since the Coil 'was' an OEM & the ohms out of spec. It was replaced.
Primary Resistance: Post A & D s/b 1,215 – 1,485 , mine was 2.3kΏ
Secondary Resistance: Post A & secondary winding s/b 11,074 – 11,526 , mine was 11,720 – 11,690
Post B & D s/b 2,200 mine was 2,204 – 2.195
The continuity check was ‘flaky’, it bounced around. 0.7 -- 0.8 & then 1.6 – 1.7

Thanks a TON for the INFO,, Paul

The RELAY IS IMPOSSIBLE to get out, even Dorothy’s Munchkins don’t have hands that small. I didn’t check it.


ROOT CAUSE:

I pulled the top shroud cover in front of the water pump and the timing belt was broken.

MY QUESTION IS:

I am BEGGING, HOPING and PLEADING that there is VALVE-PISTON clearance and I don’t have bent intake or exhaust valve stems.

Any tricks to be fore warned about when changing a Timing Belt?

1988 LXi 3-door, does anyone know if there is clearance?

[Vinny]

Non interference engines will not bend valves if a timing belt breaks.


Tips on the belt
Make sure you set the crank to TDC then set the camgear. I personally replace the tensioner, spring, and oil seals while I am in there, just as preventative maint. Its a failry quick and easy job to do. Just make sure you have a jack and a wooden block when to seperate the motor mount to get the belt on

[Dncdesign]

Thanks Vinny,

My question posed below WAS:

I am BEGGING, HOPING and PLEADING that there is VALVE-PISTON clearance and I don’t have bent intake or exhaust valve stems.

Any tricks to be fore warned about when changing a Timing Belt?

1988 LXi 3-door, does anyone know if there is clearance?

Do you know? Vinny

Dnc

[Vinny]

I said it above. Our engines, from what has been stated, debated, argued, and bitched about millions of times...... are said to be NON INTEREFERNCE engines. I am not sure of the exact numbers but in theory its impossible to dick up the valves when a belt breaks, hence the term non-intereference. I've heard of people not having any problems after breaking belts, a few people claim they have.

For those of you who don't know.................

An interference engine is one where the valves when open will touch the pistons at TDC such as when the camshaft timing is out of sync. This could occur if the timing belt or chain breaks, is incorrectly timed or someone is moving the cam or crank with the engine not fully assembled. Obviously a non-interference engine won't do this.

Keep in mind this is for a stock engine. Modifications such as changing the valve timing, valve lift or compression ratio can and does turn some non-interference engines into interference engines.

A so so list of interference and non-interference engines can be found HERE (http://www.gates.com/downloads/download_common.cfm?file=TimingBeltReplacePages.pd f&folder=brochure)

of course that states we have an interference engine, along with every honda motor ever made........go figure

[Dncdesign]

Vinny,

Thank you for your input, I sure do appreciate the facts.

But, in reality your original quote was:

Non interference engines will not bend valves if a timing belt breaks.

NO WHERE in the above statement does it mention WHICH model has Non-Interference, before your last post.

I said it above. Our engines, from what has been stated debated, argued, and bitched about millions of times......

Hmmmm, I never debated it. So, can I ASSume that when the timing belt broke on my 1988 LXi, it didn't bend any valves, unless a freak occurance in spark firing?

Other than compression test, is there a way to verify this situation.

Thanks for your wisdom in advance.

Dnc

[Vinny]

Edited in the best interest of both myself and the members of the board who respect my opinon.

[XJRiggs]

I will back Vinny up on the point of there not being a problem with valve clearence when a timing belt breaks ( I have personal experience too ), but I would sort of disagree that its an easy fix. I suppose with the proper equiped shop it would make for a nice half days work. It took me a full 8 hours but I had limited hand tools and only a sissors jack- oh what fun.

I would also say that if there was interference you would hear the piston slapping off the valve as you turned the engine over.

Good luck with your project.

[offthahook]

I'll jump in the fray here. We do have interference engines. I worked at a Honda dealer and I am very good friends with a Honda mechanic who has worked ONLY on Hondas since 1978. He has repaired countless Honda motors due to snapped timing belts. I have personally seen MANY timing belts break and MANY bent valves. I've seen pistons crowns f'd up due to the timing belt snapping. I believe it is the position of the pistons and whether or not you're accelerating that determines the damage if the belt breaks. Sometimes, you get by without damaging your valves... but that does not mean the engine is a non interference setup.

[rdn]

agree with offthahook....i got a bent valve when the timing belt broke...the car sounded like a diesel after that...
ended up with replacing the whole head by another one from the j/y (cheaper)

[accordlxi2.0]

but their was a few guy's who was revving the engine and the belt snapped replaced and it was running as if nothing happened.
their was this guy at lti who was a ass, had a 3g drove it crazy bragged that he put over 200,000mile on the car and still had the original timing belt.
well one day sitting up there driving crazy and shit it broke on him.
we replaced it, but man that belt was worn out!!!!!!
and of course his engine was fine.
i was told by one of the tech at the school that our in particular was interference, . . . . . . .

[Dncdesign]

I held off replying because I had no information. Now I do but don't want to.

Riggs thanks for the “Good luck with your project”, I sure did need it.

OffThaHook, I appreciate comments. I’ll be coming just south of you tomorrow to a ‘small’ company called TMMI in Princeton.

I was in 5th gear doing 35mph thru town and I swear it was no more than the feeling you get when the ignition is turned off or out of gas. “Oh Geez, why I’m a stopping”

The timing belt broke but that wasn’t the root cause. The cam shaft stopped turning and the belt snapped.

I went and looked at the belt. I know what I'm looking for because I've got 20+ years in Automotive Manufacturing Machine Design and sure enough the belt was not fatigued, not stretched but a clean shear across the width of the belt and torn 1 inch long with the length (the pitch). The belt wasn't all that worn in the power grip area.

The guy working on it says it’s not even worth pulling the head. Throw a used engine in it.

[accordlxi2.0]

that's weird, how could that happen. . . . . . .

[dinhscot]

hey guys, i have a 1988 Lx-i Accord that broke its timming belt not onces but twice. IF the Timming Belt broke the car will not throw spark nor would it turn over.. from what it sound like.. its seem like timming belt problem.

Both time the shop said it would cost big buck because of value being belt or whatever... (big as in over $1,200). Broke at 120,000 Miles and the other at 188,000 miles. My cars is running over 215,000 and still pulls strong.

Both time all Value was fine and only take replaceing the belt and labor.. around $250. Don't listen to shop owner is the moral of the story.



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