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View Full Version : MODIFICATION, COLD AIR INDUCTION



TeKKnoTeKK
07-20-2002, 08:14 PM
Ok people lets hear some ideas......here are some so far, lets put all the ideas together and then we can see what do about making them a reality.

Hydrogen system.....need to get some more details first, then I will post how this works.

Air intake A/C....This would basically be an air conditioner for the air being sucked into the engine. You could use freon or some other means to get the air cold, from there, once the air is nice and chilly it is pumped into the intake system.

Water cooled system....I remember someone on the board presenting this idea, whoever you are come forward please. Accord7SE_i?

Keep the ideas coming and if you would like, build on these.

Sean
07-20-2002, 08:30 PM
have at it.

A20A1
07-20-2002, 09:17 PM
CARB MANIFOLD COOLER

Just as coolant can be used to heat the carb when the motor is cool. I'm thinking of cooling the carb while the motor is hot.

Lets start off by letting you know why the carb and manifold needs to be heated.
When you first start the car even when the temperature isn't that cold outside, the fuel exits the carb in drops. For the drops to enter into the intake stream and from there into the combustion chamber, it must be light enough for it to be moved by the air.
If you can imagine a few drops of water on the surface of a table... try to move it a few inches by blowing on it. Notice how it moves slower then the air. Well since the fuel is moving slower in the intake manifold less fuel then air will reach the combustion chamber decreasing power during normal operation but also causing hard starting conditions.

If you turn the fuel into vapor by heating it then the fuel can move quicker inside the manifold thus keeping the proper air fuel mixture. fuel and air speed is also the reason a manifold flow and velocity will increase power. Textured manifolds help kick up fuel into the air steam, Fuel likes to stick more on very smooth surfaces.

now after 30 min. of driving the carb and manifold is more then hot enough to heat the fuel as well as the intake air. Well if you've been around you already know that cold air = better performance. For the stock carb intake you get a free but restrictive cold air intake... it's good for low rpm driving. if you flip the lid you get less restriction and more air but its hotter... so if you are going to keep the lid fliped you either need to bring cold air in or cool the air that you are using.

I'd go for both options but just for the sake of discussion I'm going to attempt to cool the maniflod which would then cool the air.


I've already disconnected the manifold heater but performance is limited to 10 mins after the car has been started and it lasts for maybe another 10 mins before the manifold is starts getting hotter from the head and block.

another idea the pursue is the "COOL CAN" used on some domestic to cool the fuel running to the carb. But overcooling can be a problem

pimp86LX
07-20-2002, 09:31 PM
hmm who was that guy who was talkin about liquid cooling?

a custom intake or just the manifold with liquid plumbing to keep things cool would be so neat

Sean
07-20-2002, 09:32 PM
ok but keep in mind cooler fuel is harder to shear into atomized droplets. and this is what im talking about lets get the ball rolling.

pimp86LX
07-20-2002, 09:34 PM
right right..mah bad....hmm quite a dilly of a pickle

Sean
07-21-2002, 08:32 PM
i would focus on building a Ram Air system similar to those found on domestic cars like the grand prix or even the firebird. they work very well. its much better than a CIA becuase the pressure form the vehicle speed will act to supercharge the incoming air charge.

this is just my 2 cents though.

bobafett
07-22-2002, 08:03 AM
http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3291

i am thinking that would be tough to do though... the only way i can see to effectively "chill" the air, would be with TEC (peltier) coolers... and then you are into mega $$$$ and tons of power sucking little time bombs under your hood! :)

the coldest that a water cooled unit cold get the water, is the temp under the hood, plus wind chill factor, it wouldnt really cool it down much.

unless you have some magic method of chilling the water, it can only be as cold as your surrounding air (assuming you dissapate ALL the heat)

and most h20 setups are fairly large as well :(

anyway, i would love to kick this idea around, cause i am sure you guys know MUCH more than me about custom car projects, but i would be happy to lend you my knowledge of watercooling, :)

Sean
07-22-2002, 12:08 PM
i know yr interested in COLD AIR but the fact is ram air has sevral advantages. it forces air in with vehicle speed. its not COlD AIR buts its much cooler than the engine bay air. cooling the intake manifold doesn;t really seem to offer enough gains to be cost effective. where as ram air could offer upto 10 hp with minimal BS involved. the cowl space look to be big enough for this to work.

AccordSi
07-22-2002, 03:29 PM
Funstick has a major point. Cool air from above the hood could defintiely work in a ram air situation. I've actually toyed with the idea of making an aluminum box around the DCOEs with a hood scoop placed directly above the the box. When the hood is closed the onrushing air would become entrapped in the box within direct range of the carbs. I believe the cool air in the box would make about 5 more horses at least. What I was concerned about though, is the effect of rain water getting into the box and being sucked into the engine.

Sean
07-22-2002, 03:31 PM
if thats yr concern make sure theres some sort of venting on the bottom of the air box

AZmike
07-22-2002, 05:09 PM
how cold were you guys hoping to get the air? colder than the ambient temperature? if that's the case, you're only going to waste energy trying to cool it off. i don't mean to rain on your parade, but it's impossible to cool something off without using more energy. so unless you want to just pull cooler outside air into the engine, you're just wasting your time.

Sean
07-22-2002, 09:20 PM
well the AIR GAP desing started becuaase hot enigne oil form the lifter valley spalshs onto the bottom of the intake manifold heating up the air charge. accords do not have the problem the manifold is seprated form the engine. ram air ram air.

Sean
07-22-2002, 09:22 PM
read the otehr cooler air topic i am advocating ram air R/D.

87pimpsterdocious
07-22-2002, 11:02 PM
I don't know where the piping could be run that would be in a position to "ram air" into and through the whole system. It could be placed lower, like right above the ground, but then there are water complications also. This sounds like a great idea so lets keep it up because there are many more knowledgable people around here (especially more than me)!

AZmike
07-23-2002, 09:59 AM
I've got a picture, but I can't post it myself. It might be of some help. It shows the air pressure distribution around the car moving from the side (I don't know at what speed, but it still shows where intakes should work best, especailly if you're considering ram air.

If someone else would like to post it I could send it their way.

bobafett
07-23-2002, 11:30 AM
i have a question first off..

would a ram air setup be a replacement to the intake system that comes off the throttle body??

and also, for this to work, would it involve cutting up the car? or is there a place we could add one without modifying the hood?

btw hood scoops are badass.. :) i wouldnt mind one! lol

87pimpsterdocious
07-24-2002, 12:33 AM
89lxi if you send it to me i'll post it! [email protected]

AZmike
07-24-2002, 11:32 AM
Sent. It doesn't list speed or give an units of measure, but it should still help with rough ideas.

87pimpsterdocious
07-24-2002, 11:29 PM
Here it is: Lookes like theirs a spike toward the front bumper (the grill area) so perhaps a ram air there would work the best.

http://students.washington.edu/aal2/pics/1airdist.jpg

Hoshizakido
07-25-2002, 08:42 PM
ok i was doing some thinking and i looked at the possibility of removing the passenger side turnsignal. Its not a big hole but it runs straight into the area where cold air usually runs. If you could get the piping to run straight to the light in the bumper it would inturn be forcing more air in.

GreenMachine
07-28-2002, 08:11 PM
Or use those little vent panels below the front blinker lights on either side of the bumper.
I have one on the intake side running up beside the battery to the intake pipe, before it ran just right into carb airbox, I noticed a diff with it. It would be good to use some kinda of funnel at the tube to make it more effective, Or custom make a hole in the bumper.

TeKKnoTeKK
07-28-2002, 08:15 PM
Well the amount of air is kind of irrelevant....the stock ECU will only tell the engine to suck so much air (that is the main reason you can get better times closer to sea level, because of the air density), the goal here is for colder air, not necissarily more air. Keep the ideas coming guys.

TeKKnoTeKK
07-29-2002, 09:59 AM
very nice bro....looks awesome, good job on that.

Sean
07-29-2002, 11:03 AM
how are you getting ait to that ?? some photo's of the ducting and filtering please.

TeKKnoTeKK
07-29-2002, 12:43 PM
he has a hood scoop

shepherd79
07-29-2002, 01:58 PM
yeah but it still needs to be cleaned before it gets into the engine.

Jdub07
07-29-2002, 02:02 PM
What about when it rains?

SteveDX89
07-29-2002, 06:08 PM
What performace gains have you noticed with the ram air setup?

A20A1
07-29-2002, 06:31 PM
It helps dramatically at night... and in the morning it just maintains good performance.

The coolest part is you can hear a loud noise from the scoop when the second barrel opens to suck air from outside the car, then if I snap the trottle closed real fast. it makes a sound simmilar to a blow off vlave, I try and pass by civics and do this just to make em wonder what I've got. ;)

89cordlx
07-29-2002, 08:34 PM
you are awesome. did you know that?

Flyguy125
07-30-2002, 06:25 PM
what about a front-mounted cold air system, would it work and if so how?

TeKKnoTeKK
07-30-2002, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by Flyguy125
what about a front-mounted cold air system, would it work and if so how?

how about explaining in a little more detail what you mean? Thanks.

Hoshizakido
07-30-2002, 10:08 PM
there was a company that made them for civics, they look almost like a intercooler. I am not sure if it would fit but you probably could get some custom pipe work done and a little internal bumper work. But it probably wont fit i couldnt say.

A20A1
07-30-2002, 11:51 PM
actually a front mount filter is a good base for a ram air in EFI setups.

only problem is... you'd have little mounting area infront of the radiator because of the a/c condensor.

you could use a half sized radiator... install the front mount vertically but the a/c condensor would still be in the way.

hmm.

maybe the condensor won't be that much of a problem... I dunno I'd have top see how thick the damn front mounts are first... all the images I've got show it with from the front with a plexiglass sheild.

hmm...

see with my engine bay the sky is the limit for mounting places... for stock engine bays you'd still have the emissions clutter. and accessories to contend with.


scratch the front mount and just build a custom cold air... you could use a short ram and make a box like I did... but it would have to be bigger... stick a scoop up top and cut a decent sized hole in your beautiful hood.
remember the box for the filter has to be big enough for the filter so the filter can breath from 360 degrees.
but the hole in the hood doesn't have to be the size of the box...
but the size of the scoop should be the size of the box or bigger.

does that make sense?

TeKKnoTeKK
07-30-2002, 11:54 PM
sure....the whole idea is to go from bigger to smaller I guess.

kennycm
07-31-2002, 07:57 AM
Ya'll are too advanced for me.

bobafett
07-31-2002, 11:22 AM
i understand what you are doing here, and i like it, the only thing i am wondering is wether or not this project would be exactly the same for FI models... i cant see why not, but i also dont know much about cars! lol

if i could benefit from a project like this, i might just have to attempt it!!! also, i would kill for a sound like that! hehe

TeKKnoTeKK
07-31-2002, 12:32 PM
It would work for FI....you would have to fabricate some sort of system similar to what A20A1 has, it would definetly be more efficient than a typical CAI.

bobafett
07-31-2002, 12:47 PM
hmm, thats a good excuse to get a new hood! lol. mine is all dented and scratched to shit!

i could build it all up and paint it pretty!!!

would it be easiest to buy a "hood scoop" and intall it? or would it be easier to make your own? i am up for some work, but i have no tools. so i think it might be smartest for me to just buy a kit and have it put on! :)

any links to different styles of scoop?

A20A1
07-31-2002, 07:49 PM
A&A hood scoops... I'll get a link up when i locate it in my favorites list

89cordlx
07-31-2002, 08:02 PM
I have/had that same idea with the FI accords. But my idea involved cutting a hole in the hood, making it so your air filer comes out of the hood (doesn't need to be alot really) and has a hard protective sheild around it. my ideal one would be having the cone facing the front of the car, so air gets shoved into it.

A20A1
07-31-2002, 08:20 PM
don't let air run past the filter at high speeds... it would take more work to suck in air if it's moving in any direction other than directly into the filter?

I've seen a civic stick the filter way out into the open air and I could imagine the small percentage of air actually being rammed into the filter versus the turbulence behind the filter and the high speed air on the sides, plus the added drag from having a filter sticking outside the car body.

MoonScryer
08-02-2002, 04:27 PM
Always get the N/X intercooler cooling thing, and modify it to fit...

87pimpsterdocious
08-03-2002, 12:22 AM
Here's my idea (i know its not a great picture). We could have the air being rammed right through the grill and routed to the tb! You'd have to somehow keep the header/exhaust manifold heat out of it by wrapping it or spraying with the ceramic paint but I think it would work well. I don't know quite where the filter element would be, but take a look:

http://students.washington.edu/aal2/pics/intake.jpg

A20A1
08-03-2002, 02:59 AM
just lay down some fibre glass... problem is the grill hits the radiator brace I think

bobafett
08-03-2002, 09:01 AM
well i am wondering about this setup, it sounds like a really good idea, and i will prolly do a front mount setup until i can get a good hood scoop on my car! but i have a question, would we need to have a box (opening) for all the air to be forced into, and THEN a filter someplace inside the box, or would we need the filter on the front of the box (seems less efficient to me) OR, is the filter way back in the system IN the piping somewhere... but i like this idea, and i would love to help perfect it and try to make it for my car!

A20A1
08-03-2002, 01:14 PM
you don't want the filter to block the air coming into the scoop because you won't collect as much air as if you were to use the scoop to increase air pressure around the filter inside a box.

87pimpsterdocious
08-03-2002, 11:36 PM
so what exactly would you propose be done about the filter element mike? Even if the grill hits the radiator brace I'm pretty sure a lot of air goes through that little opening (especially at high speeds). I think this could really work but i'll go look at my car and see how much clearance we would have.

ps. look at the new pic (in same spot) does the filter element look to be in a good place there?

TeKKnoTeKK
08-04-2002, 08:34 PM
hey A20A1, did you make your hood scoop?

A20A1
08-04-2002, 08:49 PM
yup out of aluminum.
i'ts pretty easy... just make sure you leave large tabs to mount the scoop and smaller tabs to bend in along the edges to make them smoothe.

POS carb
08-04-2002, 09:59 PM
is that a tuppaware? :eek:

A20A1
08-04-2002, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by POS carb
is that a tuppaware? :eek:

:huh: :crying:

:lol

Site
08-07-2002, 11:33 AM
You should make a few of these and sell them as a kit to users on the board. Would anyone other than me be interested in this?

|site|

89cordlx
08-07-2002, 12:07 PM
I'd be interested since I suck at being told stuff hehe.

RedneckRicer
08-07-2002, 11:08 PM
i had a ram air of sorts on mine for awhile, but i took it off when attempting to sell it. which i'm not gonna do for awhile now. but i ran a peice of vacuum tube from the FI intake plastic arm from the air box to a scoop under the bumper (from a '78 impala i wrecked) it made the car seem faster and i got better MPG

pric
08-08-2002, 10:13 AM
I did a little quick sketch and sent it to A20A1 to clean it up a bit and post it for me. It's a hood scoupe that allows the air to flow into the scoop and up and around to the top where the filter is and a funnel like trumpet that runs down into the carb. Hard to explain you have to see the pic.

Site
08-08-2002, 01:09 PM
So pric (insert beavis and butthead-ish laugh here), you gonna build it?

87pimpsterdocious
08-09-2002, 12:34 AM
alas, the radiator is in the way as you said. Screw that idea.

bobafett
08-09-2002, 06:11 AM
ahh man dont give up THAT easy. i am sure if there is a will there is a way.

what about sticking a box up near the vents on the bottom edge of the hatch bumper?

even if there isnt some slick way to do it, i would still be thrilled to ahve a ram air hood!

Site
08-09-2002, 06:30 AM
Originally posted by funstick
if thats yr concern make sure theres some sort of venting on the bottom of the air box

Funstick wrote this in reply to AccordSi writing about encasing DCOEs in an aluminum box and then feeding air to the box with a hood scoop. My question to Funstick or others who know is this: wouldn't venting the bottom of the airbox decrease the air pressure being fed to the DCOEs? I know A20A1 has a hood scoop, how do you get around the rain problem? I've got some used DCOEs being shipped to me and would love to set up some kind of forced induction for them. My car is HUNGRY for forced induction :)

A20A1
08-09-2002, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by 87pimpsterdocious
alas, the radiator is in the way as you said. Screw that idea.


hmm.. add an aluminum spacer to the 2 bolts holding the hood clip you may need longer bolts... but this would lock your hood before it closes all the way... you can drive around with cold air coming in from the top... it would cool the engine and flush out hot air.

but it also adds a lot of air resistance

A20A1
08-09-2002, 01:37 PM
small vent holes will decrease the efficiency of the ram air but it shouldn't make ram air worthless.

as long as you slant the base of the aluminum box away from the barrels of the carb the bulk of the water should go away... then make sure you drill a hole to keep the water from building up.


I found that at certain speeds barely any air is entering the hood scoop... I actually saw rain fly upwards in a dramatic curve... I'm now extending the scoop to meet the front of the hood.

A20A1
08-23-2002, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by pric
I did a little quick sketch and sent it to A20A1 to clean it up a bit and post it for me. It's a hood scoupe that allows the air to flow into the scoop and up and around to the top where the filter is and a funnel like trumpet that runs down into the carb. Hard to explain you have to see the pic.


here is the photoshop version... still working on a 3d drawing.

http://a8.cpimg.com/image/B6/1E/12285878-177b-01F4011E-.jpg

1989 DX R
08-23-2002, 05:19 PM
What about cowl induction?

A20A1
08-23-2002, 05:29 PM
Cowl induction would be good... but the air hitting the windshield already is forced into the well beneath the windshield... POS carb cut a hole there to feed his carb... I bet it worked really well.

pric
08-23-2002, 05:48 PM
Thanks A20A1. You did a good job :cool:

2Fast_Fiero
08-27-2002, 11:58 AM
I think we shouldn't just worry about cold air intake, we should also be finding ways to get cold air blown on our engines, driving at any speed the engine compartment is hoter then fuck, and no mater how good of a cold air intake you got, theres still alot of heat inside that compartment, keeping the engine hoter then fuck, the engine needs to be cooler then it normaly is also, I'm trying to develop some type of scoop for under the car inside of the mouth of our bumper to blow air onto the engine, the fans dont realy work because they cant get enough air. I'm starting to think a 4 Core Intercooler would be great.

YK86
08-27-2002, 12:56 PM
If your worried about getting hot air out of the engine bay, how about a heat extractor like some people make for Mustangs?? It's basically a functional hood scoop facing the opposite direction so when the cold air blows in from the front, the hot air at the top of the engine bay gets blown out the back.

2Fast_Fiero
08-27-2002, 02:23 PM
There you go!!!
that could be good for the FI people. since they mainly have no use for a Ram Air, they could do that.

A20A1
08-27-2002, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by 87pimpsterdocious
Here it is: Lookes like theirs a spike toward the front bumper (the grill area) so perhaps a ram air there would work the best.

http://students.washington.edu/aal2/pics/1airdist.jpg

I can't really see why the windsheild pushes the air so high unless the test was done from the side...

Sean
08-27-2002, 11:12 PM
easy its called laminar flow. air will try to almost stick to a curved surface then the flwo path will always extend beyond that. by simply making a 1 inch tall lip across the hood you could recudedrag by a signifacant ammount. btw im talking about at the cowl area. this is why air dams are so effective at reducing drag even though it would apper that they would induce more. i still think picking up air form the cowl air would work the best as its already a high pressure flow area.

AZmike
08-28-2002, 12:02 AM
That picture isn't of airflow, it's a pressure gradient. It shows the relative magnitude and direction of the pressure on the car's body from air. Some places the air pulls (front of roof), some places it pushes (the front). My guess is that it's for the center, so the pressure could be significantly different closer to the sides of the body.

Also, I doubt that a car moving at any reasonable speed would produce a laminar flow, but I'd have to review Reynolds number notes to be sure. I'm almost certain it would be a turbulent flow.

Sean
08-28-2002, 12:32 AM
let me geuss your in college to be an engineer. laminar flow has more to do with air colums being accelrated than it does with actaul vehicle speed.my friend trust me this might be a pressure gradiant but it also show the highest amount of pressure the cowl area. its this way on 90% of the cars out there. the windsheild induces a shear on the flow across the hood. the resutling updraft also creates a high pressure area at the base of the hood.

and turbulent airflow and laminar airflow can e created at all sort of vehicle speeds. it just depend on how fast te air is going o a particular portions of the car. stop thinking text book.

A20A1
08-28-2002, 01:20 AM
ahh pressure... now the lines make a bit more sence... :D

AZmike
09-03-2002, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by funstick
easy its called laminar flow. air will try to almost stick to a curved surface then the flwo path will always extend beyond that. by simply making a 1 inch tall lip across the hood you could recudedrag by a signifacant ammount. btw im talking about at the cowl area. this is why air dams are so effective at reducing drag even though it would apper that they would induce more. i still think picking up air form the cowl air would work the best as its already a high pressure flow area.

I didn't mean to start an argument, but laminar and turbulent have very specific meanings. Both laminar and turbulent flows will try to 'stick' to a curved surface if the pressure is lower in that region.

Whether or not a flow is turbulent or laminar is a function of fluid density, viscosity, flow speed, length, and surface roughness. So "turbulent airflow and laminar airflow can e created at all sort of vehicle speeds" is not true. Only the leading part of a long surface (like a car) will have a laminar flow. Once the length of the surface exceeds the critical value for the surface's roughness, the remainder of the flow will be turbulent.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "the windsheild induces a shear on the flow across the hood". If by that you mean it sends some of the air over the roof as well as deflecting some to each side then ok. Otherwise I have no idea what you mean.

Yes, I am majoring in mechanical engineering. What's so bad about 'thinking textbook'?

si accord
09-03-2002, 10:47 PM
ok i've seen it on afew pic here and i wanted to know how they made there custom air intakes. a few pic and the supplies needed would be nice. hey if anyone that knows how to make them wants to make some money i would pay for parts, time, and shipping if anyone wanted to make one to sell to me.:burn:

87pimpsterdocious
09-04-2002, 01:03 AM
look to staticpat and A20A1 for help on this

87pimpsterdocious
09-04-2002, 01:15 AM
Since we now know its pressure, wouldn't the places where air is pushing the most be the most high flow? Like the bumper and right below the windshield. If so work should be done on trying to make and intake there, or at least route air from those places (the most possible being the bumper).

DarknessRS
09-04-2002, 02:28 AM
I know this is late, but I'll have to agree with funstick about the fact that Ram Air > Colder Air. You only gain about a 1% increase in power for every 11F colder the air is. So unless you are running a turbo/supercharger setup, there are really no significant gains in making the air colder.

Sean
09-04-2002, 06:01 PM
wel the gian could be signifacant if the actuall intake manifold get cool air runnign over it and shed heat better. shit thsaue intake is ully close to collant temp in the order of 200dgress F. so colling it down just 30 degrees could be huge. also ram air has been shown to give upto 5% increase in power. thats a big deal. i would say lets get the air funneled into the motor and get some air flowing over and around the intake manifold. realzing a bigger gain.

A20A1
09-04-2002, 06:40 PM
awe man, leave it to me to place the scoop opening right where the lines go flat... Now thats some engineering, LOL :D

Sean
09-04-2002, 07:24 PM
turn the scoop around and get yr air back.

si accord
09-04-2002, 10:21 PM
ok Thanks you don't have their Emails do you?

A20A1
09-04-2002, 10:31 PM
hey hey, Mine is all welded metal... I think the other one made was Cold welded using chemical adhesive.

I think the cold welded intake might be the best since it's easier to do. ask staticpat for the measurements and materials... he may have already posted it though. When you're done I can tell you how to hook up the vacuum lines. :D

staticpat
09-05-2002, 07:52 AM
check out these threads first.

http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4339

http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4255

http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4356

and i fwded you like 50 private messages that i wrote to other ppl. its real not that hard, though it would be alot better if you could get one professionally made by a sheet metal guy, or make it cold air, or do a ram air and hood scoop like A20a1.

staticpat
09-05-2002, 07:54 AM
check out these threads first.

http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4339

http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4255

http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4356

and i fwded you like 50 private messages that i wrote to other ppl. its real not that hard, though it would be alot better if you could get one professionally made by a sheet metal guy, or make it cold air, or do a ram air and hood scoop like A20a1.

staticpat
09-05-2002, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by 87pimpsterdocious
look to staticpat and A20A1 for help on this

wow i feel so special now :D i got referenced right along with a20a1 who knows a billion times more than i do.

bobafett
09-05-2002, 08:46 PM
what would be the ideal orientation and placement of a hood scoop for a FI car?

AZmike
09-11-2002, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by A20A1
awe man, leave it to me to place the scoop opening right where the lines go flat... Now thats some engineering, LOL :D

Actually that's a fine place to put a scoop. There is no pressure against the hood there, so the flow is parallel to the surface--it still goes straight into your scoop. A higher pressure area might work a little better, but your spot isn't that bad. The front of the hood or roof are probably the only spots bad enough to make a difference.

Thorny88Lx
10-10-2002, 01:19 PM
You are special... special ed

Thorny88Lx
10-10-2002, 01:20 PM
j/k man your cool by me

Site
10-25-2002, 06:41 AM
Water injection. I've been reading about it and have found nothing but positive results from this, on both N/A and boosted engines. Improved MPG. Cleaner engine. Better emissions (plus for my DCOE setup). Cooler engine. Less risk of detonation at increased HP. You can buy it. You can build it (at least some people can - :lol )

My question is this: since, in effect, water injection is kinda like an "in-cylinder intercooler" could you run turbo with no intercooler if you have water injection? A good intercooler is mass $ - one of the biggest costs of a turbo project. If a well built water injection system could keep things cool, then you could save some $.

Site
10-25-2002, 07:22 AM
LOL - just found this article on Autospeed.com (man, I like that website).

Water Injection versus Intercooling
So which is better if you are running a forced aspirated car - water injection or intercooling? Each has its own advantages and disadvantages. Intercooling is a reliable means of reducing intake air temperatures and depending on the approach chosen, it can be a very simple system. However, it should be noted that while air/air intercoolers have few component parts, water/air intercooling is more complex than water injection. Intercooling systems require little or no maintenance, and a good intercooling system will provide an engine power increase in addition to preventing detonation. However, intercoolers are much larger than water injection systems and are generally harder to package. Finally, all intercoolers cause a restriction to intake flow.

Water injection is very effective at preventing detonation. It is not subject to efficiency drop-offs through heat soak and causes no restriction to intake flow. It is easy to fit as an add-on to an existing system, and because its components can be spread around the car, it is generally very easy to package. Unlike intercooling, water injection will not necessarily give a power increase. However, the biggest disadvantage is the requirement to carry a relatively large water tank - and to keep on filling it!

Site
10-25-2002, 07:26 AM
Table

Sean
10-25-2002, 07:34 AM
well you could always goto allchol water injector. teh blend seem to be queit popular in teh turbo crowd these days. id say go with a mix of intercooler and water injection.

A20A1
10-25-2002, 01:46 PM
I'm not sure but isn't Alcohol used to keep the carb from icing when you use draw-thru turbo set-ups. I may have mixed up what I was reading... anyways water injection was mentioned as a last resort to decrease the chance of detonation (turbo applications) since the supply of water isn't a constant.

A simple spray of water over the fins of the intercooler would increase it's efficiency... i was watching an RX-7 install one in the hood scoop. not sure what year his car was.

3G Jester
01-05-2003, 10:45 AM
Get a cold air intake.....but about 1/4 inch smaller around then normal.......put it inside another tube. Then seal it off so it creats a pocket between the two pipes. Air goes through the pipe in the center...in the pocket surrounding the tube...fill it with freon from an old refrigerator or somthing.........

some sort of coolant......get it?

Mike's89AccordLX
01-05-2003, 11:54 AM
I think I get it, but I am not that advanced to say if it would work or not.

3G Jester
01-05-2003, 03:41 PM
<----Lost..........so where is the best place to throw a scoop? and drop that air into a air tight boxwith a ram air filter before running to your engine???

ne diff. between carb and efi?

3G Jester
01-05-2003, 03:43 PM
can someone repost the pics?!?!? all im seeing is a CLUB PHOTO ad!!!! this post makes no sense but i neeeeedd to read about it...i want ram air too!!! :::SNIFFLE:::

3G Jester
01-07-2003, 10:00 PM
nice cover thorny...lol


whats better.....carbed with a scoop, carbed with ram air and scoop or cold air from bottom...

AZmike
01-11-2003, 03:21 PM
The hood scoop is really more for the carb, sending cool outside air right into the intake through the carb. The scoop will probably work best in the center of the hood (on the centerline) anywhere on the rear half (center-center or center-rear). I'd just put it right above the carb intake so the box setup under the hood would be straight-forward.

EFI cars do best with a cold air intake away from the hot engine ahead of the front right wheel. A scoop doesn't work well because he air needs to go through the throttle body and the airbox/filter setup would be akward, large, and complex.

3G Jester
01-13-2003, 02:51 PM
just a thought..havent given it serious look/thought...

Well....ACCORDing (haha) to the preasure diagram on the 1st or 2nd page..theres A LOT of preasure on the nose.....

Soooo..... put a small box with a pipe/hose/ custom box shaped pipe......running to the carb intake box. you would have to remove the batery. but heres a horrible image.

that little box under the radiator is the intlit for the ram air duct. It sits behind the bumper...


http://images.cardomain.com/installs/287000-287999/287805_1_full.jpg [img]



i think you'll get it

od2681
01-13-2003, 08:25 PM
i would probably put a hole in the hood, I mean like a hood scoop or whatever....then run the intake piping towards the hole...does that make sense???
I have the idea in my head.....I dunno if someone has done that b4

3G Jester
01-13-2003, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by od2681
i would probably put a hole in the hood, I mean like a hood scoop or whatever....then run the intake piping towards the hole...does that make sense???
I have the idea in my head.....I dunno if someone has done that b4

yeah. thats pretty much your common hoodscoop ram air deal. you gotta put in weird layers to prevent water from going in. take a look at a subaru outback--with the scoop--my mom has a 00limited..good example of water intake prefvention

turfnnsurf
01-13-2003, 10:00 PM
OK here is my 2 cents on this subject. I was also concerned about intake air temp under my hood. For my solution see my webpage and the link for pics and a description of what i installed... http://hometown.aol.com/turfnsurf/page5.html

bobafett
01-13-2003, 10:11 PM
cool! nice writeup

turfnnsurf
01-13-2003, 10:16 PM
Thanks Bobafett, I hope this will help some of the people out here.

bobafett
01-13-2003, 10:17 PM
so did the ram air setup in the bumper give you a noticable difference from the regular short intake system you previously had? i am thinking of making something similar to what you have going there... :)

turfnnsurf
01-13-2003, 10:24 PM
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not so much from a standing start but definately when im on the highway and need to pass or merge.. The car pulls better and also downshifts faster with a "kick in the ass" feeling now.(yeah yeah i know i have a slack-o-matic) but it's great in traffic...LOL

bobafett
01-13-2003, 10:24 PM
cool... maybe it will be worth it in the winter months.. for summer i plan on haveing a true CAI, i might as well! :)

turfnnsurf
01-13-2003, 10:28 PM
Yeah that is a good plan.. IM making a heat shield to cover my filter and force the intake to use just the cold air from the scoop. After that is done I will have transformed mine into a true CAI. It should work cause the tubing is 3" ID the same as the rest of my intake after the filter to the Throttle Body.

3G Jester
01-14-2003, 08:31 PM
::bump:::

pics?

od2681
01-14-2003, 08:55 PM
i think I have one more idea that probably sucks but i dont know..
ok here is the deal...you know that the old machine guns had water running around the barrel to keep it cool so it wont overheat....Kinda like the radiator....I had an idea about running water around the intake to keep the intake cooler, so the air wont be heated...does that make sense...kinda run hte water pipes through the air conditioner to keep it real cold...use a water pump..you know...
I dont know but it seems ok...im probably wrong

A20A1
01-14-2003, 11:55 PM
..or have a cold water resivoir in the trunk and spray the manifold with washer nozzles.

3G Jester
01-15-2003, 07:10 AM
od2681---i was thiniging the same thing but using ....something like freon ...like from an old refrigerator.

pric
01-15-2003, 11:42 AM
Ford has done something like that for there new Lightning. It's called the super cooler it uses the A/C to super cool the intercooler for short bursts of power. It takes like 2min. to charge up and is good for about 30-45sec. and an increase of 50 extra HP. A light comes on to let you know that the system is ready and does not activate unless you are at full throttle.

3G Jester
01-15-2003, 11:44 AM
OOooooooo i want one

AvgWhtMale
02-13-2003, 09:49 PM
Cool, aerodynamics...

I'm really tempted to write a buttload about fluid mechanics, but nobody would care except the couple of engineers... plus, my memory is unreliable. By the way, I hear Reynolds was an assgoblin.

Man, that's a fun word...

-Geek

3G Jester
02-13-2003, 10:12 PM
hahahah assgoblin....


i decided that COLDER air really isnt the issue....its AIR INDUCTION thats the needed factor. Cold air is a plus..but you can spend all the money in the wolrd cooling your air.....but the more air you get in, the faster and more force it has.....thats where there secret lies. Not cold air...but more air. more air, more gas bigger explosions,more turns of the cam, more vrooom.

3G Jester
02-13-2003, 10:14 PM
So a CAI or a short ram with a hood scoop is good...forget cooling it

hook up a turbo like induction system to a hood scoop or fender slits or the bumper and SUCK the air and FORCE it into the engine....need to ubgrade the carbs....or increase mix on the EFI....but it would be better then a hydrogen cooling system i think.

wikkedv15
02-20-2003, 07:36 AM
about the spraying water over the manifold... were would be the best place to locate the nozzles.. also how would u "charge" the water... so it doesnt run like a garden hose... ?
but this idea is very good..
the other modification i have to the previous idea..
u know the coolant hoses that run throught the throttle body.. well ive seen people bypass those and just plug them.. why not run the water from the trunk reservor through there.. like a continuou cycle.. and have a switch for when to turn it on.. seeing as how u dont want it on when its cold and u just started the car..:)
this idea.. seems pretty good in my option:werd:

wikkedv15
02-20-2003, 08:20 AM
More to the effect that i had before.. i just thought fo something...
if u use the water reservor for the water to run throught.. and disconnect it from the radiator..(as long as ur hoping not to overheat...) also all u need was some pump to run the water from the radiator reserve tank to the tb and back to the reserve tank.. id consider moving the reserve tank away from the radiator.. probably screw the system against the firewall..
any takes on this idea?

wikkedv15
02-20-2003, 08:21 AM
heheh to keep the water. cold..
ICE ANYONE? lol..
ive seen this on a speedvision show like 2 yrs back.. drag cars would put pieces of ice in the radiator .. or something to that effect

Scorpion88LX
02-20-2003, 08:30 AM
a20 said this early in the thread but if you run a pump and liquid nitrogen in small lines you could get real cold intack temps

wikkedv15
02-20-2003, 08:38 AM
so my idea would work? using the radiator reserve.. just filling it with liquid nitrogen.. and continously runnning a cycle?

3G Jester
02-23-2003, 07:17 PM
liquid nitrogen is an AWSOME idea...but its too rediculous. buying, storing, and carefuly containing liquid itrogen just isntsafe or feasable. thats why i thought freon..or water would be better. freon isnt exactly great for you or the environment...but it doesnt aumatically kill all your skin on contaact. and its easier to get and store

rubberburner
03-21-2003, 04:58 PM
Hey turfnnsurf, I had the exact same idea for an intake as ur setup there. Now i know it works:D. Except i'm using 2-1/2" aluminized muffler pipe:(.

AvgWhtMale, man, if you know about fluid mechanics, and you wanna say a bit about 'em, plz do so!

And how come I haven't seen anyone mention the handy little formula, "PV=nRT"? I used it to do some calculations, and figured out that if you go from 30 Celcius to 5 Celcius (sorry american dudes), ur getting a 9% increase in air molecules. Something to think about.......

AvgWhtMale
03-21-2003, 06:31 PM
PV = nRT! P = rmg + 1/2 mv^2! It's all good. That pressure diagram is wicked cool. But I think it's just pressure, not pressure gradient. A pressure gradient is the change in pressure in a given direction. It's dp/dx, for the mathematically savvy. This picture shows the pressure on the car's body, probably down the centerline, relative to atmospheric pressure. You gotta know that pressure is inversely proportional to airspeed (what is the latent airspeed velocity of a laden swallow?). Therefore, the higher the pressure, the lower the airspeed. So the air hitting the front of the car is at very high pressure cuz it's being slammed into by the front of the car. It ain't going nowhere. The air on the forward half of the hood is like, "hey, check it out, we can go over the car if we go this way! Wohoo!" Then it hits the windshield and it's all, "Bummer, dude." Hence the high pressure against the cowl. Then it gets to the top of the windshield and it takes off like a mo fo. This is where the car thinks it's a wing and generates some lift. If the car were going fast enough, it would actually fly! Well, not really. But this is the reason that cars have spoilers- to "spoil" the airflow and make it go turbulent, thus slowing down the air and increasing pressure, thus cancelling lift. Wicked.

As far as CAI, it works because colder air is more dense, and therefore contains more oxygen. More power per cubic cubelike-thingy, more bang for the buck. Free horsepower! Yippeee!!!!!!

Free because usually you have to give up something to get something -- low-end torque for high-end power, fuel economy for speed, etc.

Me like free horsepower.

-Me

A20A1
03-21-2003, 06:43 PM
Well as soon as I find a sheet of aluminum large enough... the hood scoop will be extended right to the front of the car... it will even over lap the front of the hood slightly... you'll see when I'm done.

If you place the scoop back where I have mine it has to be 3" or taller to get a lot of air to go in... I think my most recent scoop is 1.5" at most. I realy wanted to get a Subaru WRC scoop but they are much too curvy... so angled aluminum it was.

rubberburner
03-21-2003, 06:53 PM
Hey avgwhtmale, show us how that "P=rmg+1/2mv^2" formula works:tongue::flash:.

rubberburner
03-21-2003, 06:53 PM
Hey avgwhtmale, show us how that "P=rmg+1/2mv^2" formula works:tongue::flash:.

TitaniumSun
03-22-2003, 01:44 PM
Ok this may so9und dumb but.... if you take the stock airbox from say like a newer civic (where the filter rests) and stick the correct filter into the top of the box with the 2.5 -3.0 inch outlet..
connect that to the front bumper grill and run some tubing to the carb with a mod'd 91 civic pgm-fi box on the carb.. wouldnt that work for a small version of the front air intake??

correct me if im wrong or tell me if you dont get it im not very technical...

dave

AZmike
03-28-2003, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by rubberburner
Hey avgwhtmale, show us how that "P=rmg+1/2mv^2" formula works:tongue::flash:.

That formula looks like an equation for energy balance (P is in energy units at least). m is mass, v is velocity, g is the gravitational constant (9.8 m/s) and r is the height above or below some reference.

Mike's89AccordLX
04-05-2003, 06:39 PM
Alright I have been making pieces of this box for the last hour. And yes safety is #1 now. After getting hit in the eye with hot plexi-glass spun up by the dremel. I washed my eye out for 5 minutes and I was looking around and finally got the little piece of plexi-glass out. I can see ok now but my eye freaken hurts. But anyways back to the ram air box I'm making. I can't draw on here so what I'll do is just draw it on paper and scan it and hopefully someone will host the image for me.

Mike's89AccordLX
04-05-2003, 07:56 PM
Can someone please host my image that I drew up? I just have to cut one more piece of plex-glass and I will just have to assmeble it and put the hardware on and weather stripping.

88 Accord DX
04-05-2003, 08:27 PM
[email protected]

AccordEpicenter
04-05-2003, 08:28 PM
arent you wearing glasses of some sort, safety glasses? Its important when you are grinding anything, esp with a dremel tool to have protection

AccordEpicenter
04-05-2003, 08:30 PM
Oh yea i also forgot to mention, downgrade engines like D16 have much much weaker engine internals, like cranks, rods pistons (compared to b16) ... even tho the blocks are close

Mike's89AccordLX
04-05-2003, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by AccordEpicenter
Oh yea i also forgot to mention, downgrade engines like D16 have much much weaker engine internals, like cranks, rods pistons (compared to b16) ... even tho the blocks are close

Dude I think you got the wrong thread :D

Mike's89AccordLX
04-05-2003, 08:49 PM
88 Accord DX check your email. Those pics were when I didn't quite have everything measured up and cut out. I have everything cut out I just need to assemble it and get some more hardware from the store.

A20A1
04-05-2003, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by AccordEpicenter
Oh yea i also forgot to mention, downgrade engines like D16 have much much weaker engine internals, like cranks, rods pistons (compared to b16) ... even tho the blocks are close


Originally posted by Mike's89AccordLX
Dude I think you got the wrong thread :D



hehe probably had multiple windows open... I do that a lot and have to cut and paste... then delete the response.

Mike's89AccordLX
04-05-2003, 08:58 PM
Oh and I do have safety glasses somewhere I just can't find them. It's also good to wear safety glasses under the car b/c when I installed my headers I got rust in my eye.


Does anyone else want to host the pic b/c I guess he isn't online now. It's JPG form and 32kb.

88 Accord DX
04-05-2003, 09:09 PM
hey chill out i was talking on AIM. anyway here it is:

http://images.cardomain.com/member_img_a/300000-300999/300831_12_full.jpg

AccordEpicenter
04-05-2003, 10:21 PM
yeah... sorry

Mike's89AccordLX
04-06-2003, 11:08 AM
Dude I was just saying you were offline (not on 3geez) Don't take shit personal. Thanks for hosting it by the way.

Mike's89AccordLX
04-08-2003, 05:55 AM
Alright, I finished the ram air box construction. Now all I have to do is put the weather stipping on the top and around the intake hole. I wasn't expecting it to turn out this nice. I'm thinking about slapping a K&N sticker on it just to kinda make it not so clear. This is what I used to make this project: sheet of 1/8" plexi-glass, weather stripping, silicone, 12 L brackets, 2 hook and staple, 30 self tapping screws, dremel, time, patience. The reason I didn't expect it to turn out nice is b/c I didn't know some measurements and when I had everything cut out it didn't seem to match up perfect. There are some small 1/16" gaps in places but I'm putting silicone on the edges to seal everything up. Now I just gotta paint my hood scoop and put a screen in it and cut a hole in the hood and glue the mofo on.

shepherd79
04-08-2003, 06:16 AM
you gonna have to take a picture of it.

Mike's89AccordLX
04-08-2003, 07:14 AM
Alright I just measured out the weather stripping. Hopefully people will want to do this same thing that I'm doing. If it works the way I designed it you won't have to remove the battery at all. I have to do some more construction still I forgot the hinges for the bottom. It's hard to explain but it will fold and close around the intake pipe and then it will lock on with the hook and staple. I'll take pictures when it's all finished.

88 Accord DX
04-08-2003, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by Mike's89AccordLX
Dude I was just saying you were offline (not on 3geez) Don't take shit personal. Thanks for hosting it by the way.

i wasnt mad. i cant type the same way i talk. i hardly ever get mad unless someone does somthing bad to my car.

Mike's89AccordLX
04-08-2003, 08:18 AM
I just wanted to make sure you weren't mad for something I said. Yeah I can't type how I talk either.

Update!!! I just got done cuttine the bottome of the ram air box, and screwing on the hinges (making sure it works like I planned), and putting silicone on all the edges that are non-moving parts. I think I'm going to use the dremel to grind down the screw tips inside the box. The filter won't touch them but I just want something to do. :D

88 Accord DX
04-08-2003, 08:34 AM
you can make me one for free since i hosted your pic

Mike's89AccordLX
04-08-2003, 09:15 AM
I can make a how to for everyone if people want. The bad thing is, it's only for my type of filter. So if you have a bigger filter the box I have won't work. It actually isn't that time consuming if you have all the parts right there. I didn't have the parts right there I just had some old plexi-glass and started cutting stuff up and then I needed more plex-glass and the parts.

1988_5spd_lxi
12-02-2003, 08:40 PM
why can we just use an intercooler, just with out the turbo.

A20A1
12-03-2003, 08:58 PM
Intercooler is good when the air is hot... but chances are the air your're getting on the outside will be cooler then air cooled by the cool air.

Now if you got some kind of CO2 cooled section of intake pipe then that would cool the incomming air below the outside temp.

Best bet is add heat spacers to the intake manifold and Throttle body and intake pipe and then remove the coolant hose that heats up the manifold.

EvilPenciler
12-20-2003, 12:04 AM
I dont know if this has been said yet but it is said that if you spray your intercooler with carbondioxide or nitrous oxide lowers the surface temp which ices down the intake charge.

zerotap
02-05-2004, 03:28 AM
Ok people lets hear some ideas......here are some so far, lets put all the ideas together and then we can see what do about making them a reality.

Hydrogen system.....need to get some more details first, then I will post how this works.

Air intake A/C....This would basically be an air conditioner for the air being sucked into the engine. You could use freon or some other means to get the air cold, from there, once the air is nice and chilly it is pumped into the intake system.

Water cooled system....I remember someone on the board presenting this idea, whoever you are come forward please. Accord7SE_i?

Keep the ideas coming and if you would like, build on these.
Could you fit something that could suck the air into some kind of housing unit that would super cool air then spray it directly to where you'd want the super cooled air to go ? Maybe mod the current A/C system to have a secondary housing for air that we want cooled then sprayed onto the area of motor we want cooled ?

edgar
02-16-2004, 07:20 PM
So what about the idea of putting the vent like on the mustangs to allow for the hot air around to engine to flow out? If you could get it to look right what type of an effect would this have on the engine...other than it running just a few degrees cooler

soljaboy2000
02-16-2004, 07:38 PM
Uh......what about if hook you intake to your A/C vent, that way just turn the A/C on to get cold air LOLOLOL :D:D

zerotap
02-24-2004, 01:27 AM
Why not just install a seperate A/C type unit for the cold air intake. Cut the tube so you can put a freon canister between the filter and the EFI or Carb and you can turn it on and off when you want some colder air. Not sure how freon would mess up and engine tho. Wouldn't want to go boom when you are just trying to get to work.

Robs89LXi
02-28-2004, 09:47 AM
How 'bout we just all move to Canada, and get all the cold air we want?

zerotap
02-29-2004, 01:33 AM
lol why not north dakota in the winter. Then we'd get real cold air.

FoX
03-08-2004, 05:54 PM
Ok, now this may seem retartded, but i moved my battery to the trunk. I was thinking of converting my Cold Air Intake and making it a ram air by using the space the the battery left behind for a pretty swift little box with a drain and cutting a hold in the hood right in the area between the cross members above the box and have a seal so that when the hood is closed it is sealed to she scoop and when the hood is open you can visually inspect the filter. i planned on making the box out of steal like my CAI which i made from steel anyway, just the rushing air on the steal alone shold drop the air temp a little like a heat sink. and the wrap the charge pipe for the little device in heat wrap and insulation to sheild it from engine heat and the ambient heat that usually plagues a CAI. sound like it will work?

FoX
03-08-2004, 05:58 PM
oh, i forgot one thing.... on my cold air intake i did experiments! I found that welding fins to the pipe to help disipate heat works well. I used a little air temp thing they have in jeeps and RV's to read my intake air temp. With fins on it i droped about 4 degrees.

RobbyKlotz
06-18-2004, 07:08 PM
I am thinking about fabricating something up, but I would like others opinions first. i was looking over the design for intercoolers. This is what I want to do.

Your basic intercooler consists of a housing, filter, and two pipes. What I want to fabricate will be a housing, filter, and one piple, leading straight into your intake system for EFI for the adapter from the civic for the carb guys like me.

I can get the filter, and fabricate the housing, and make the piping just right. BUT my question. With this design, Wouldnt it be better than a regular short ram?

Also the front of it will have a removable plastic shield to protect against everyday driving, but can be removed when power is needed.

Thoughts, ideas?


EDIT!!!

A cheaper/smaller version of this
http://store.gaugemagazine.com/ProductImages/apc/intakes/15-1099.jpg

shepherd79
06-18-2004, 07:19 PM
you, may as well put the filter in the fender. this way it will suck a lot omore cold air.
the problem with true CAI is that if you live in a place where there is a lot of rain, you will be sucking water through your filter unless you put AEM bypass filter that helps eliminate the water.

since you are a carb guy, i would recomend hood scoop for the filter.
here is what you do. remove the vacuum lines.
after you remove all the lines, charcoal canister, black box, and some other crap.
you will have a lot of room on passenger side firewall.
relocate the battery closer to the fire wall. now you can build a box where the battery used to be. build a box to keep the how air out and bring the fresh air in through the hood scoop. this way, if you want to close the scoop, you still getting a colder air.

Edited:
do not buy that POS filter system.
according to the company it will push the air into the engine.
well, if you look at the piping, there is no way it will flow faster. it has almost double amount of piping or curves as AEM true CAI system.
they used this filter on Horse Power TV one time. it was project Civic. they only gained 3hp. where with AEM style air intake you can get a hole lot more.

RobbyKlotz
06-18-2004, 07:25 PM
Thanks alot Alex. I appreciate the comments. I was just trying to think of a better way of getting air in. I suppose I am headed back to the old drawing board.

Micah 89LXi
06-20-2004, 11:01 PM
the short ram is great tho..i just installed mine today....its like a 22 degree bend the straight into the intake.......with a cold ain intake you have too many bends...i was told one 90 degree bend is the same power loss as 10 feet of pipe. the more direct the better....next im gonna do the hoodscoop....soon as i move the batt to the trunk.

A20A1
06-20-2004, 11:17 PM
Stick that filter right under a WRX style scoop and seal it good... 90 degree bend 180 degree... doesn't matter... It will work, hands down.
Just pray you don't get rained on... however you can always fabricate a flap that will block the scoops intake while opening a new passage for air to be drawn in from the engine bay... reducing the risk of water entering the filter... no real worry about performance loss since you wont be racing when its raining right? hehe

edit**

You're carbed... hmm I may have something better.

RobbyKlotz
06-21-2004, 03:57 AM
Stick that filter right under a WRX style scoop and seal it good... 90 degree bend 180 degree... doesn't matter... It will work, hands down.
Just pray you don't get rained on... however you can always fabricate a flap that will block the scoops intake while opening a new passage for air to be drawn in from the engine bay... reducing the risk of water entering the filter... no real worry about performance loss since you wont be racing when its raining right? hehe

edit**

You're carbed... hmm I may have something better.

Yeah, but I am going off the design of that one above... That one inparticular is too big for our bumper... BUT if you look it has a removable plastic shield on the front to keep the rain out.

Alex, yeah, Horsepower TV is where I saw it...

I am just thinking it would be better than short ram...

shepherd79
06-21-2004, 02:28 PM
it is better than short ram, but by not much.
the other thing you can do is use the same technic i told you by isolating the filter, but use the scoop with a flap that can be activated when you floor it.
it is something old american cars used to have.
it was active hood scoop. it works from manifold vacuum pressure.

N-Man
06-25-2004, 08:36 PM
...they used this filter on Horse Power TV one time. it was project Civic. they only gained 3hp. where with AEM style air intake you can get a hole lot more.

I saw that episode. That was the gain while the car was hooked up to the computer. they never did say what the true increase was when they actually took the car on the track.

speedpenguin
06-30-2004, 07:52 PM
just by looking at that filter design it doesn't look much better than stock.
go with shepherd79's system, or make the CAI from the how-to, that's what i'm doing. although i guess that wouldn't do to well w/ a carb. i'm doing mine after the EFI conversion.

pixiesfan78
06-30-2004, 08:10 PM
what is this horsepower tv never heard of it.what channel? nman i hope thats your old ladys ass and not yours.jokey joke. :rice: hood scoop shmoop stick a coffee can on it. the ribs in the can make a (spiral down draft intake wind tunnel) patent pending.and youll be able to literally fly past a fast and the furious car at mach 1.i know i know i didnt believe it iether untill a 3 geez member proved it. you see the secret is to convert your fuel system to run off coffee theres a converter that extracts pure caffine out of the coffe and turns it to super ricerocket fuel. 1 can lasts a whole week and everytime you need more fuel you get a shiny new hoodscoop for almost free.and concerning that little lawsuit where the can flew off bashed threw the windshield and stuck in the passengers head.it was a faulty install the driver clearly did not use enough of the provided ducktape to properly attatch the super scoop. gehtoriggers inc exepts no liability for failure to read our detailed instructions that are provided with the kit. we also exept no responsibility for lost instruction manuals during shipping. so if you want your car to go faster then bill clinton can blow a wad in an interns mouth get your self a ghettoriggers inc superscopp with(spiral downdraft intake windtunnel) patent pending. only 19.99. this has been an unpaid advertisement brought to you by the people who invented the ported rear dash and the ford pinto............................................. ...damn i could sell anything. ahe sorry about that guys it just came to me but tell me i had you for a second right...right. coffee can hood scoop guy you know we luv you and were gonna cut you in on the sales to baby.

pixiesfan78
06-30-2004, 08:31 PM
oh i just realized you guys may think i was mokking this thread. i wasnt it just popped into my head and i thought it would make some people laugh.so back to the disscusion at hand.

speedpenguin
07-01-2004, 10:07 AM
i thought it was funny.

train
10-05-2004, 07:15 PM
i haven't read every post in this thread, but i have some input on the idea involving air from the a/c system that gets fed into the intake. not very profitable i don't think. i've heard of this idea before, but i've never seen any results. this is why i don't think it would be a good idea...

first, an optimum a/c system blows about 35 degree air out the vents on max a/c (on recirculate). unless your car has had a recent recharge and been pressure tested and came out with good results, your a/c probably doesn't put out a temp this low now. but it sounds like a good temp for intake air. this puts strain on the engine, as was said in the first page i believe, so its kinda like robbing engine power to put cold air into the system hoping you'll gain more power. you just won't gain enough power to make it worthwhile. further, most older cars and some newer cars have a switch that cuts off the a/c compressor during WOT to offer a little extra power, especially on small displacement imports, such as the 3rd gen accord. so for racing and spirited driving purposes (if these cars have this switch, which i think they do... not sure tho), you won't be getting cold air at all into the intake. also, by doing this, your duct work leading to the throttle body will be insanely long, making throttle response real bad more than likely.

and as for that "front mount intake" resembling an intercooler, that doesn't provide very good gains either. it draws ambient temp air, but the air doesn't flow very well into the tube. the air comes in through radiator type fins, but then hits a solid metal wall (the back of the intercooler looking thing), which slows down air flow significantly. it finds its way into the tube (which is about 2-3 feet longer than a standard CAI tube, with much more bends to slow air flow), and finally makes its way to the throttle body. i'd say a short ram would have about the same performance gains as a front mount intake, and it wouldn't look like you have a turbo. i wouldn't want people thinking i had a turbo because i have an intercooler looking gizmo in my bumper, line up to race, and get smoked because they tried to match a race with a turbocharged car. that would be embarrassing.

A20A1
10-05-2004, 10:05 PM
Slower air builds up pressure, which is good for some low end as long as it builds before the carb throttle plates.. or TB.
However, it does have diminishing gains as rpms increase.
If you ever looked at some short rams on the market... they add a plenum area just before the TB. I assume they claim a gain in HP at like 3,600 rpm but fail to mention that at 6,000 rpm HP drops below other intakes without the plenum... thats simply my guess. I could be wrong.

Air has mass... let gravity give you a boost.
I would think the front mount style intake would be better suited if the box was placed over the intake manifold and air was rammed in thru a scoop... sure there are some sharp angles to traverse but If it's sealed properly the air could be forced in making the bends a minor setback to that of a front mount mounted in the bumper.
Water is the only problem, and no bypass valve would save you from injesting water when it's seeping in from above. So you'd have to get creative.

I'm against many short rams, they are too short and they suffer from not having an air horn or funnel shape to the inlet to help get rid of turbulence. They also change how quickly vacuum signals change when the throttle is opened because of the shortened tube length, this could effect the responsiveness of the motor if not compensated for.
On cold air they can get away with not having any air horns just because the length of the tubes help straiten the air, though adding one is always a plus
Many filters do not provide space to fit a horn. Some filters try to incorporate an air trumpet as a part of the rubber connector (more like a simple taper), but it's not as good as a horn which has a full cuve along the rim.
They also make open ended filters which are supposed to decrease turbulence, but I can't speak for those.

Carb guys have plenty of options since velocity stacks are common in domestic carb air filters... only you need to hood space and a way to adapt it to the carb. Or a domestic carb to star with :D

Back to Cold air...
You can get plenty of cold air to the stock carb thru modification of the stock air box along the rear wall of the box and a hole in the firewall tapping into the gutter below the windshield...
If you've ever run the interior without the air ducts you'll nottice you get a lot of air forced into the cabin. This is because the air hitting the windshiled is forced down as well as up. POS CARB utillized the pressured gutter to feed cold air to the stock carb air box... you need to of course make a hole in the firewall and the appropriate ducting work to direct the air to the sealed stock air box.
Water will be a problem again... but you wont have to worry about adding a hood scoop to the car if you don't like scoops.

train
10-06-2004, 09:25 AM
Back to Cold air...
You can get plenty of cold air to the stock carb thru modification of the stock air box along the rear wall of the box and a hole in the firewall tapping into the gutter below the windshield...
If you've ever run the interior without the air ducts you'll nottice you get a lot of air forced into the cabin. This is because the air hitting the windshiled is forced down as well as up. POS CARB utillized the pressured gutter to feed cold air to the stock carb air box... you need to of course make a hole in the firewall and the appropriate ducting work to direct the air to the sealed stock air box.
Water will be a problem again... but you wont have to worry about adding a hood scoop to the car if you don't like scoops.

very interesting idea. duct work going to the intake would be fairly short, and the possibility to draw in more air than a standard cai exists. a large funnel type pipe could be made going from the gutter to the back of the airbox. basically a velocity stack that collect air at the gutter. i think a small hole somewhere, maybe at the bottom of the airbox (before the filter) should be used to direct water down a small tube and out of the system.

hot-87-hatch
09-21-2005, 08:25 PM
Interesting theory. I'm assuming you're increasing the pressure to the fuel in order to add more fuel to the extra volume of air induced by the hood scoop. I see two problems. One: the water trap is designed to catch any water before it reaches the float bowl. However you most also be concerned about the water going into the mouth of carburator. This can be just as much of a hinderance as actual water int he fuel.

Second problem: the area directly above the mouth of the carb will be a pocket of signicantly negative pressure. Caused by the engine sucking air into its cylinders. This negative pressure could created the opposite of the desired affect, actually drawing fuel FROM the float bowl. Your water trap could end up being full of fuel.

A20A1
09-21-2005, 09:18 PM
Yeah I was thinking you would have to up the fuel PSI along with the inscrease in air pressure.

The way the carb bowl is and the vents on it, I doubt any fuel will enter the float vent tube and go into the water trap. Just in case, the port into the water trap will be higher then the float bowl vents above the barrels, so any fuel coming out would favor and get sucked into the barrels.


I wonder if I could make an aluminum spacer below the top hat of the carb, to then build off of to make a box for the ram air.
It would require the float level be adjusted significantly to make up for the space, but it would cut out any of the leaks and be a good way to pressuize the entire carb.

All the unused brass vaccum ports will be soldered shut.

Only unsealed area would be the throttle shaft, but I doubt ram air would be great enough to create a leak there.

Baveara
10-02-2005, 11:08 AM
what about this iv'e seen people using intake gasket spacers that space the intake away from the motor. then u could run a seperate cooling system something small and light for just the intake then use the engine heat to warm the fuel up so that it can atonomize better. i think this would work for both carbed and fuely engines. just my thoughts.

A20A1
10-02-2005, 09:33 PM
Yup they sell a gasket and washer set on INLINEFOUR.COM. I think it was made by spoon. Anyways you'll need the one for the B16 or B18C5, then redril the holes as you would when you are adapting a B series intake manifold to the A20 head.

Cant Stop
11-08-2005, 06:40 PM
i was thinking of using the side air vent off a semi truck and mounting it between the windshield sprayers then running a cable inside the car to open and close it , this vent is a rectangle that is usually seen on cabover trucks it pops out the side near the door sorry i dont have a pic.
this would be a variable ram air i dont know what the under hood clearance is so i dont know if the underside would get in the way,or you could mount a scoop on it my company still makes fiberglass ones that are small i think we used them on the mid 70's sport nautiques i will dig one out and put dim's on here it looks like a mini ford scoop from the 60's

lackej1971
12-18-2005, 05:51 PM
Let me ask you guys about this: For some reason, my 88 Accord blows quite a bit of particulate up into the breather. Maybe this is normal, but I removed my air filter and noticed that it had very light oil all over it. Now I am thinking that the mist is soaking the filter and choking my engine, because when I drive the car without the filter it runs really good. Replace the filter and it don't run good at all.

Now I am looking at this sketch and wondering just how necessary a standard air filter really is. I have this mesh type stuff that allows high amounts of air to enter the breather while filtering it at the same time. Is this a decent compromise and if not, HOW can I get the particulate oil to stop messing up my filter?


James

A20A1
12-19-2005, 11:41 AM
Keep your air filter on.


Clean out your valve cover.

Remove the valve cover, get some engine cleaner or some oil removing chemical and flush out the baffles and pockets in the roof of the valve cover, flush it out in both directions letting the oil drain out the PCV Filter hole and then go the other way and let the oil drain out the roof of the valve cover. Do that untill all the oil is gone.
Then make sure you flush out all the chemicals and reinstall the valve cover.

Replace the PCV Filter in the small box on the right side of the air cleaner.

This should limit how much oil gets trapped in the roof of the valve cover because it can drain more freely now that it's clean.

Also make sure your valve cover gasket is sealed.

lackej1971
12-19-2005, 06:58 PM
I must admit that I wasn't too keen on ever removing it in the first place. I have removed the valve cover and cleaned it as you instructed. About the only thing I have not done is replce the PCV Filter with the correct one. I went to AutoZone and the guy there said they were out but that I could probably just use any of the same material that they are made from, so thats what I did.

I know it was wrong, and now I will have to replace my air filter for doing so. Oh well, it's just money, ha ha.

James

As soon as I can I will buy the CORRECT PCV Filter and a new air filter unless you guys think that I may be able to wash it out some how. Any ideas, cuz it's almost brand new.