do it yourself suspension upgrade?

[88'er]

:uh: i'm looking at going with progressive sprint springs that will give me 2.5" lower, and tokico struts. i've heard that this isn't to extreme and should be somewhat practical for everyday driving, with some exceptions. but i wanna know if i can do the install of the struts myself. my brother in law was telling me something like once everything is loose my stock struts unscrew and i need to count threads to make sure my new ones go in correct. all this sounds like a big headache. i know i'm gonna have to pay for a four wheel alignment after its all done, but is this something i should just buck up and pay a shop to do? i don't really want to because i've already gotten estimates, of as high as $500 for the job!

[shepherd79]

First, the Sprint springs and way-way too stiff for tokico struts. I wouldn't run them on anything but Koni or revalved Bilstein.
Second, you can do the job yourself. it is easy to do. and you don't have to count how many threads.

[SteveDX89]

Don't use Tokicos. Sprints are so much stiffer than stock that you'll blow the Tokicos extremely early. You need to get revalved Bilsteins. Be prepared to spend almost $700 just for the struts. It's liveable for everyday driving, you just need to avoid or go around large bumps. I don't know what your brother in law is thinking of cause there's no threads to count when installing struts. Get a Honda shop manual and read how to replace the struts. If you can't get a shop manual, get a Haynes. They're not as accurate but better than going in blind.

[Busted_Blue]

loosen the top 3 bolts and the bottom large one holding the strut to the lower control arm. The other bolt connecting the brake lines to the strut need to be loosen too. That's pretty much it.

Be sure to have:
Spring Compressor
Allen wrech set
10mm-17mm Forgot which ones to use again


tools that will help make it faster
-WD40 or some kind of bolt loosening spray
-Air Compressed Tools cuz the breaker bar sometimes isn't strong enough if it hasnt been touched for years.
-another person


Your brother in law sounds like another weirdo trying to be an expert without correct knowledge. As for everyday driving, if you have no bumps on your roads by all means this setup will be fine. If no, you are screwed. Those tokicos will die fast and you will have to do this again. Even with my Tokico springs I tend to scrap my cat when i go down my driveway. This is a 1inch DROP!! just beware of what you are looking for and the sacrafices you have to make for it.

[Justin86]

what about a spring compressor? they might be short enough where you can put them on the car and have the car compress them then put the lock nut on the strut rod.

[SteveDX89]

You need a spring compressor to get the get strut mounts and so forth from the stock strut. Don't take them off with one. Busted's comment makes it stand out how much quality struts make a difference. I have the Sprint springs with Koni fronts and revalved Bilsteins rear and I scraped my car once or twice in 6 months and we have shitty ass roads here in PA.

[88'er]

ok, well i talked to a guy at tokico today, and he said that yea 2.25/2.5 is pretty extreme and it'd wear out those struts fast, i think i'm settled on the tokico's with h&r 1.5" lowering springs. does this sound like a good combination??

[Justin86]

yea when you go 2.25 and lower it is a good idea to have the struts shortend a bit to prevent bottoming out.

[superaccord]

HEY! i have sprints springs and tokicos and they have been Wonderful for well over a year now. not one porblem! SO i call bluff!

[Busted_Blue]

superaccord, shortening to prevent a bottom out. It doesnt neccessarily mean that the car does..but it keeps it away from that chance should it ever reach that limit. I say its more of a safety precaution more than anything. You CAN do without it, but I rather not take my chances :)

[markmdz89hatch]

88'er -> Toki's should only be used with stock springs as they are valved only a little higher then stock struts and are valved no-where near where they need to be to handle a lowering-spring spring rate. I don’t want to sound harsh, or like my answer is the only answer, but in looking at the cold hard facts, and the principals of suspension, these Toki’s ARE NOT made for use with any lowering spring. Even the Tokico lowering springs are too stiff for the Tokico struts.

Super -> This is no bluff or b/s. I’m willing to bet that your ride is suprisingly comfortable, and not super stiff, even though you have these real stiff springs in. Is that right? If so, that’s a perfect indication that your struts are not performing as necessary. If your struts were working, your car would be “tight” so to speak. If you were to have someone take your car for a ride on the highway, and you followed it in another car, watch the ass end of your car when it hits a bump, or a depression in the road. I guarantee it will hit the bump and sort of bob up and down for a split second. In that same situation, if your car had Koni’s or revalved Bill’s, it would hit the bump and you would see your car just instantly settle. No bouncing, or bobbing up and down.

A lowering spring is only half of the equasion, the strut is the other half, and in all reality the more important half.

[nswst8]

Thanks for the info, These guys just don't want to believe that there is a right way and a wrong way and no short cuts to suspension, to eger and your going to blow the weaker suspension link/part and cause more damage than good.
A dropped ride does look good but if done incorrectly it not only causes damage to the car but also poses a major threat to the other drivers on the road should your suspension decide to blow on the highway at a higher rate of speed.
And this is what gives tuners a bad rep.
Do it the right way or don't do it at all.
Phil :cheers:

[bullard123]

Who sells Koni's or revavved bilsteins? Anybody know a website that has them for a decent price?? And I thought Tokios were suppose to be aftermarket? And if so then how are they slightly stiffer than stock struts?? Just wandering.

[SteveDX89]

Koni's are out of production. Bilsteins cost 100 bucks a piece and cost 65 a piece to be revalved. You can find them on various websites that sell Bilstein products.

[markmdz89hatch]

Tokicos are aftermarket, but aftermarket does not necessarily mean better. But in this case, the Tokicos are better then the oem strut. So, if you were to install the Tokicos with the stock springs, your car would perform much better. It's not fair to say that the Tokicos are not good, they're just not made for use with aftermarket springs, only OEM (in this case).

Again, it's like Phil said, the look is great, but you should never trade looks over safety, and that's what happens in most cases of lowered cars. A car with underpowered, weakened, or blown struts is not safe at all. And it’s not just the suspension that takes a beating, your brakes suffer badly. With the weak suspension, if you have to brake hard, the nose will dive, the ass will lift and it’ll take that much more force for your brakes to stop that forward momentum.

What happens when a strut cannot handle the spring rate of the springs that they have been paired with?

Picture three people standing. The middle person is not as strong as the other two. Now, the middle person is standing with his arms to his side, the other two each grab an arm and pull. What happens? The middle guy is not strong enough to keep his arms from being over extended. Now flip it, if the middle guy is the strongest, and the other two guys each pull an arm, they’ll be able to pull his arms, but he will provide resistance, and will be able to pull his arms back to his side.

Suspension works that same way. The strut and spring each have their own job. The spring will compress when it hits a bump, or when the weight is transferred to it. Now, the spring rate determines how much weight or how big of a bump it takes to compress the spring. The higher the spring rate, the “harder”the spring, thus the harder it is to compress. This is where the strut comes in. After the spring is compressed, it needs to, and will rebound or decompress. The strut’s job is to control that rebound. So, the strut needs to be strong enough to control that spring when it decompresses. If it’s not strong enough, the spring will just force the strut to open until the spring has completely rebounded. (The strut does play a part in the compression of the spring, but that’s something to talk about another time.)

IF you want the look, and don’t want a hard(er) ride, a lowering spring is not the answer (at least not for the 3G).

Now, by no means am I suggesting anyone do this, but given the other option of a lowering spring with underpowered struts, it’s the lesser of two evils. If you want that lowered look, and don’t have a bunch of money, then spend the money where you should. STRUTS. Get the Tokico’s and just cut the stock springs. Just remember, let’s say you cut an inch of coil off, then that’s 1 inch less travel your suspension has before it bottoms out. Remember that.

If you don’t care about how high or low the car is, but you want it to perform better but you’re low on funds…. Then just spend the money on struts, and don’t worry about “lowering springs”.

Sorry for the long-winded response, but I think it was needed.

[88'er]

:rockon: :rockon: :rockon: --> Mark: thanks man, thats exactly the kind of advise i was looking for! here's another questions for you though, i am looking for performance, and the good looks of a lower suspension. this is my daily driver, but i do want it lower too because i will also be autocrossing with it soon. so my question is this; what setup would you recommend for what i want? kyb's with 1.5" lower h&r springs? i honestly don't think i can afford the koni's or bilsteins though.

[AZmike]

The KYBs are softer than the Tokicos--they are stock replacements. If you plan to autocross you will benefit more from getting only good dampers and using your stock springs compared to the wrong shocks with any lowering springs. The stiffer dampers will improve your steering response, especially transitions. In a slalom, for example with stiffer damping, you'll steer and the car will turn rather than you steering, waiting for the car to finish rolling over, and then turning. You may want to consider using Tokicos with your stock springs until you can afford to get all the right parts--you could get a decent portion of what you spent for them back by selling them here when you decide to upgrade.

If you're determined to lower it then you should probably look at the H&Rs with revalved Bilsteins for the front and Tokicos in the back. The handling won't be as crisp as it could be, but at least your front end won't be bobbing all over the place.

[88'er]

you say it won't be as crisp as it could be. does that mean that it'll be an improvement over stock though. i want to do this upgrade the right way, so how would i get it as crisp as it can be? second, where can i get revalve bilsteins? and why do they revalve them?(sorry bout the newbie ?'s!)

[AZmike]

Using either just Tokicos with stock springs or a combination of Tokicos and Bilsteins with H&Rs will give you an improvement over stock. The best setup depends on how you want to change the car's handling. I decided that I wanted to reduce the understeer so I choose a spring that increased the rear rate more than the front, but wasn't too stiff for a daily driver. I'm really happy with te results and have noticed much better handling when autocrossing. Using stiffer springs requires a stiffer damper to control it like Mark mentioned above. Revalved Bilsteins are the best option for dampers now. They will need to be matched to your spring's spring rates. Bilstein changes the valving inside the dampers to change how stiff they are--only Bilstein can do this for you. The is a sticky for this proceedure listed near the top of the suspension section.

[MarioBurke]

I have the sprint springs and with the stock struts they are horrible. not that they have blown the stock struts already, but it bounces quite a bit and they are horrible over pot holes and shit like that.

Now my question is for any of the suspension gurus, you say the KYB struts are softer than the tokicos, BUT which KYB? Has anybody seen or have the KYB AGX series. The AGX is made after the same seemless weld design and adjustable dampener as the Koni struts.

if you havent seen it already:
http://www.kyb.com/shocks/cutaway/cagx.html

that is the link to the strut. the one place that claimed to have it for our cars was tirerack.com. right now the site isnt working but last time I was looking for struts,which was quite a while ago, they had them

[88'er]

----> Mike, so what exactly does your setup consist of? because thats basically what i want!

[SteveDX89]

Mike and Mark said what I was trying to say, they just spelled it out longer cause I was lazy. :D When I lowered my car, I did it the right away and at the end my mouth almost dropped to the floor when I added up the total cost. However, the result is car that has no bounce over the bumps, handles 2-3X better than stock, and looks great. The ride is stiff but I knew that going into it. I drive it daily with no problems. The really large bumps I try to avoid or go around them.

[markmdz89hatch]

88'er --> I completly agree with Mike on that one. As for the best setup for autoccross and for daily driving, Mike pegged that one. But, if it were me and I wanted to be competitive in my class at auto-x, I would just buy the Tokico's and leave the stock springs. If your auto-x is SCCA sanctioned like mine, the rules state that the car can still be entered into the "stock" class if you change the dampers(struts), however, if you change the springs too, you'll get bumped to the next class up. Fyi, In the stock class, our cars have been known to do very well.

Mario --> I put the AGX's in my 300 when I had it, and yes it's a great strut, I would reccomend them to anyone who asked about them. But, unless things have changed (and it would be great if they did) KYB only offered the GR2's for the 3G, and does not carry an AGX for us. The GR2 is, as Mike said, a stock replacement, but yeah, the AGX would be a great idea for most any lowering spring (obviously depending on the valving they choose.)

Now that you mention it, I think I'll look up my old buddy at KYB and start pestering him to try and do something for us 3G'ers.

[AZmike]

----> Mike, so what exactly does your setup consist of? because thats basically what i want!

My setup is summarized in my signature. H&R springs, Koni dampers (unfortunately they were discontinured shortly after I got mine). The Konis also have adjustable rebound damping, so a wide range of spring rates can be used with the same shock once set correctly. I added Prelude upper control arms for cheaper balljoint replacement and some camber adjustability for the front. I moved the battery to the trunk to get some more weight off the front tires in hopes reducing understeer--it seemed to make a small, but noticeable difference (unless it's all just in my head). Then I had it aligned with the new parts. I had the caster set to maximum (2.2 degrees) to get the most steering-induced camber, and set the static camber to about half a degree negative, and toe to zero. I've got about 18k on this setup with very even tire wear. I was considering a stiffer rear sway bar, but the car already has great low speed turn-in and now oversteers a little on hgh speed sections of the courses.

This setup could be nearly duplicated, substituting revalved Bilsteins for the Konis. Will you be autocrossing for fun, or are you going to work to score as many points as possible? Stock class allows damper changes, but not spring changes, as Mark mentioned. However, the PAX factor is nearly the same between the two classes, so if you just want to autocross a car that is setup the way to like the penatly is small unless you exceed STX class also. The PAX factor is what converts your raw time to a startardized time so that your driving in a 1980-something accord can be compared to the guy that drives an old formula ford. More details can be found on most autocross sites. www.scca.org might be a good place to start.

[Busted_Blue]

my problem was that my stock springs were missing. My dad actually raised the car to prevent my mom from scraping everywhere. Now that I'm driving it, I got Tokico springs on the blues. I know for sure there is bounce and at this point I'm ok with it. I'm not driving autocross anytime soon. Sadly I'm suprised the Tokico didnt make springs perfect for their struts. Sooner or later I'll up to revalved bilstiens. For now I'll run the full tokico setup since I don't have stock springs to go back to.