STILL not working, vacuum leak? help

[Wipeout]

I don't even know where to begin.. so let's start here - a complete rundown of my vacuum lines.
http://www.teamcaf.org/upload/honda/grr.gif
A, B, and C are plugged. 2, 25, 6, and 14 are plugged into the main manifold vacuum port with three Ts. The line with the red arrow is connected.
I guess I have weird thermovalves. The main manifold vacuum one looks like this:
http://members.fortunecity.com/accordex87/how_to13.jpg
The "main intake manifold vacuum" is what I'm using, the other is plugged.
In the following picture, (1) is the plugged part of the main intake manifold vacuum stalk.
http://www.teamcaf.org/upload/honda/Three-Things.jpg
(2) is this blue plastic thing with two vacuum ports in a line. I don't know what it is, but it's not connected now. They're all capped.
(3) is another metal thing with three vacuum ports. None of them are connected right now either. They're also all capped.

I broke the rear vacuum line on the choke, see pic (don't worry about the question mark.. just look at the line where the vacuum port should be):
http://www.teamcaf.org/upload/honda/Broke-Choke-002.jpg
The nonbroken line is capped now, and I didn't do anything with the broken one.

Now, for the problem. My car still does this:
If you have WMP9 codecs: http://www.teamcaf.org/upload/honda/Honda-Problems-WMP9.avi (2.53 MB)
otherwise:
http://www.teamcaf.org/upload/honda/Honda-Problems.avi (12.2 MB)
They are the same video. WTF is going on?

[Wipeout]

I just tried plugging the broken choke port with some putty and it didn't make a difference. I've tried a few different setups with the vacuum lines but this is the most recent, and current, one. Fast idle works now, and creeps up from 2100 to 2400, then when I kick it down it idles at 1200 or so. Once it warms up, the crap starts happening.

[A20A1]

So you removed the choke then since you broke the choke parts?

I'm not sure if I can d/l the video and play it but I'll try, my connection is real slow.

[A20A1]

As long as the choke fully opens when the car is fully warm, you know after the fans come on at least twice... then I guess it's okay... but honestly I would remove the choke to elliminate it and a possible vacuum leak as well.

make sure that none of the diaphragm adjustment screw are interfering with the idle... if you removed A/C idle boost remove the adjustment screw.
That should rule it out as a trouble area when you make any adjustment to the idle controller screw and the throttle stop screw.

Did you touch the air fuel ratio screw at all?
best not to yet

Also
You could be injesting coolant... since after the car start to heat up the coolant will start to leak into the carb and possibly the intake manifold, it doesn't look like you replaced the gaskets between the manifold and the EFE plate or the gasket between the EFE plate and the carb.

If you did replace the gaskets then cool, damn your carb is dirty, why didn't you clean it while it was off?

[A20A1]

friken butt monkeys, it's gonna take me almost 2hours to d/l

:( I'm getting lunch.

[A20A1]

1 is manifold vacuum port.
2 and 3 are both thermovalves. the blue one is "A" the metal one is "B"

[A20A1]

Fuel or vacuum leak...

Choke isn't closed at all though... wass the car warmed up when you made that video?

If you are leaking vacuum from the choke puller they you might consider removing the choke plate and plugging both ports on the choke puller, that should stop any vacuum leaks from that area as long as the diapragm is sealing right...

It could be a base gasket vacuum leak as well, or coolant leak like I mentioned in an above post.

Also the port that you connected all the manifold vacuum lines (2,14,25) is just a pipe... the pipe is not always glued very tightly inside the manifold and doesn't always seal properly... so I suggest you try and wiggle, pull on the tube to see if it is loose...

check your ground wires, make sure the wire to the solenoid at the back of the carb is hooked up.

spray carb cleaner along the gasket between the manifold and head, also along the base of the carb...
if you can get the carb to run.

I love the sound of your exhaust, I had to watch the vid over again cause I was distracted by it. :D I need to make a vid of mine one day.

[Wipeout]

Whoa, thanks a ton for the help so far. My internet has been down for the last five hours so my last reply got lost. Yeah, the car was warmed up when I took the video. It runs okay when it's cold.. well, okay being it intermittently misses at idle like usual, but at least I can accelerate. I replaced both the EFE gasket and the carb to manifold gasket. I punched the EFE heater thing out and shaved the wires off, but I don't think that should matter. What does the solenoid on the back of the carburetor do? I'm pointing at it in the broken choke picture with a question mark, right? I've already sprayed carb cleaner along the gasket between the intake manifold and the head, and at the base of the carburetor. I'll check the main manifold vacuum thing to see if it's loose next. I'll also remove the choke. What do I plug when I remove it? Also, when I zip tied the choke plate all the way open, the car won't start, even when it's warm. Is this normal? How am I going to start it without a choke? Does anybody have an extra choke for sale? I am going to need one before winter, and the junkyard wants me to buy the whole carburetor.
Oh yeah, and the exhaust is a stock manifold with a catback 2.5" Flowmaster. It sounds pretty cool for a four banger :P

[A20A1]

well that solenoid needs to be plugged in... and working

As long as you have coolant running thru the port on the carb and to the manifold you should be good even in cold weather.... best thing to do is not to try and start it over and over again without waiting, you also need to refill the float bowl after you press the gas peadal

Basicly press the gas a few times to give the manifold some gas... then turn the key to the second position then off then to the second position again... do that a few times and you should be good to start the car... if not repeat the process.


Pumping the gas is good but the problem is, with no choke you are also increasing air flow as well.. thats why you should pump the gas before you start not while you are starting...

If you do pump while you start only open the throttle for a very short time... If you stomp the gas and hold it at all you will most likely kill the car

Once it start you can add a little thorttle to keep the rpms at about 2,500... or higher if you need too... if you have the right fuel mixture then you should be okay and not really do any damage from reving while you wait for the car to warm up some...

key things to set when you remove the choke is the throttle stop screw... this must be set to the best but also the lowest good idle speed when the car is hot so that you don't have a problem with a high rpm idle. You must completely disengage the idle controller screw when making throttle stop screw adjustments... after the stop screw is set then turn on the lights and fans (this will cause the idle to drop which is normal) now go ahead a set the throttle controttle diaphragm screw to increase the idle speed back to where you had it set before you turned the lights and fans on...

[Wipeout]

Yikes complicated. I will see if I can fix it without disconnecting the choke first. This car is gonna be my winter car so if possible I'd like to make winter starting relatively painless. Anything else to check? I'll make sure the solenoid is plugged in. What does it do?
Do you think it's a vacuum leak? I don't think coolant is leaking. Could it be anything else?

[Wipeout]

I still can't find any leaks. I haven't removed the choke yet - I really don't want to unless I have to. The choke works fine.
Oh, and it does the sucking sound thing when it's cold, too. I just started it up and tapped the gas and it did the same thing.

I just removed the A/C idle boost and the cruise control.

Are there supposed to be any vacuum ports uncapped anywhere?

No I haven't messed with any adjustment screws or anything.. and the reason I don't think it's the choke is because it did this before I broke the choke.

[Wipeout]

I put my head near the carburetor and pushed on the throttle with a screwdriver (stupid I know) and it sounds like the sucking sound is coming out of the primary barrel of the carburetor. It could also be the choke, though it really sounds like it's coming from the primary barrel. Any new leads on things to do? The thermovalves are both tight, by the way, and I'm not using either.

[accordlxi2.0]

i'm like a20a1, that exhuast sound's nice. i did a vac removal, but kept the choke, egr, cruise,ac. so i know what your going thru.
that solenoid in the back of the carb provide's fuel when the engine's running,i think you should leave it in.
that sucking sound is normal.
how about the venturi's what you might have to do in order to get it to idle without shutting off is raiseing the throttle stop screw. the more you raise it the more air goes in.
but look thru both barrel's if you see fuel dropping in the barrel's at idle, then something is either wrong with the float, or the venturi's are loose.
NOTHING should be left un capped. the carb hate's that.
since it's warm you should be able to start the car with the choke open.
it's just gonna be a lil' bad in the winter since it hate's being cold.

[A20A1]

you're making my hair fall out you know that... lol

J/K

[accordlxi2.0]

who me or him??

[Wipeout]

Haha :)
The car idles just great now. The problem is whenever I push the accelerator more than 10% it makes a sucking sound and the car tries to die. Sorry about your hair, I'll buy you a hat or something :D

[Wipeout]

OMG I am losing it. I could have sworn part of this post had disappeared and I had posted more information on it. WTF is going on?!

[accordlxi2.0]

still sound's like it running to rich . . . .

[Wipeout]

I doubt it's running rich. It idles just fine and I haven't messed with the idle mixture screw or anything. The venturis are tight and there is no fuel drippage. I might just get another carburetor from the junkyard.

[accordlxi2.0]

no homey don't give up yet, what about the float?
what level is the float set on.

[A20A1]

Reconnect ABC or you will run rich.

[Wipeout]

The float level is right where the line is - it looks like where it's supposed to. Where do I connect A, B, and C to? That thing I pulled out that says A B C on it? I can do that although I don't see why it would help - the car started doing this before I removed any vacuum lines.

[accordlxi2.0]

yea thier are lines that are not numbered and bigger than the reg. lines.
but that should'nt cause the problem, you might have to adjust the screw so the carb can adjust to the mod.

[Wipeout]

Yeah I think it has to be something else. If it were running rich, wouldn't it stumble on acceleration instead of making a dry sucking sound when I open the throttle?

[accordlxi2.0]

then i say leave that abc shit out.
ya got to richen it more
did ya replace both filter's.
plus a20a1 told me the float screw has a filter inside too.
it does this with the air filter off too??

[Wipeout]

Yeah, bare carburetor, vacuum lines removed and plugged except where needed. Could it be I need to rebuild the rest of the carburetor? What could be making that sound?

[accordlxi2.0]

well the sucking sound is normal, what happen's is the barrel open's it's sucking gas from the venturi's look inside the first barrel, and see if when ever ya open the throttle the gas is being sucked from the venturi.
also is the secondary barrel opening like it's suppose to?

[Wipeout]

Yeah, the secondary barrel is opening. So what would be making it die like this? Are you sure it's supposed to make that sucking sound? Did you watch my movie? When I push the gas in slowly, it raises RPMs higher and higher, then at a certain point it sucks real loud and dies. It's not a slowly increasing sucking sound.

[accordlxi2.0]

well it does suppose to make a sucking sound but not supposed to die.
i'ma look at your vid one more time, i feel like i've had this problem before. . . . .


update, okay now when you step on the gas, instant it make's that sucking sound, that's normal.
their's gotta be a vaccum leak.

can you run the car on idle?

if so i have an idea

[Wipeout]

Yeah the car idles beautifully. Now when I rev it up and let go of the gas, it just returns to idle. I screwed something up before that's why it wouldn't idle.

I took the car to get fixed and the guy told me that 1) my car is a POS and I shouldn't spend money on it (lol) and 2) he said my accelerator pump was probably the culprit. It doesn't push against the lever on the top most of the time, it just kinda sits there. Oh and I can drive it but it's real weird. When I push the gas it doesn't go anywhere but if I just keep mashing the gas while it's in gear, eventually it'll kick in and let me accelerate. I can usually keep accelerating by shifting real fast without letting the clutch all the way out (keeping load on the engine) or shifting low and real careful. Once I accelerate hard, though, then take my foot off the gas, I have to mash the gas in and out a bunch before it will accelerate again. It's a real joy to drive *rolls eyes*

Do you think it could be the accelerator pump?

[Mike's89AccordLX]

Hey Adam where did you take the car, just so I never go there ;) So he fixed it and it's not completely fixed? Was it at Austins? I know a couple of the mechanics there. I just figured you took it there since that's up near your rich neighborhood. :) Got them rims painted yet? Do you think sweet sounds would install that tv monitor and car stereo stuff for me if I bought a Remote start and car alarm for the prelude? I just don't know much about the stuff to tackle it alone.

-mike

[accordlxi2.0]

hey man it's a pos to him cause he can't figure it out.
noone know's about carb's now-a-day's except us and a few guy's outside of the 3g's site.
it seem's like it's not getting any gas, take a look at where the lever is then push on it, while the engine is running, either a squirt or jet jet of gas should come out the hole on top of the carb barrel.


oh and another thing try this whit the engine idleing while warm, pump the brake pedal, and note if the car try's to die out while pumping the brake pedal or if the idle goes up.
that may solve the miystery . . . . . .

[A20A1]

well the pump looked okay in the video... but there are a few reasons it wont pump right,
the top hat gasket is leaking,
there is a clog in the fuel bowl or pump passage,
the diaphragm is messed up,
the spring is weak on the linkage that goes from the throttle shaft to the accel pump arm..

You should really replace the top hat gasket since that will effect fuel flow for the whole carb if it leaks.

[Wipeout]

I ran all new lines, bypassed both fuel filters and installed a cool clear see-through fuel filter in the engine bay. It raised my idle a bunch but didn't help my problem. I think the problem lies within the accelerator pump. With the car on, the pump arm is not all the way up.. it just kind of sits there. When I move it up and down manually absolutely nothing happens. It has a new diaphragm and I'm pretty sure I put the diaphragm in right with the spring and all, but I could have done something wrong. The mechanic said the accelerator pump arm was supposed to be all the way up and touching that arm thing that is supposed to push on it.

I went to Gene's Repair and it was Gene that diagnosed it as the accelerator pump (for free, just by looking at it and playing with it a little). He specializes in Honda stuff, especially Honda carburetors. I'm sure he's a good mechanic; he wa s just wary of me spending my money because I told him I was poor. So what do you think? I think it has something to do with the accelerator pump since it doesn't pump any gas when I move it up and down. Should I take the top hat off? I've never had a carburetor apart like that before.

Oh, and when I put the carburetor on again do I have to get new gaskets again? I've only driven like 20 miles on these current gaskets.

P.S. could the top hat gasket leak without me seeing anything?

[Wipeout]

Hey Adam where did you take the car, just so I never go there ;) So he fixed it and it's not completely fixed? Was it at Austins? I know a couple of the mechanics there. I just figured you took it there since that's up near your rich neighborhood. :) Got them rims painted yet? Do you think sweet sounds would install that tv monitor and car stereo stuff for me if I bought a Remote start and car alarm for the prelude? I just don't know much about the stuff to tackle it alone.

-mike
Oh yeah, I forgot about Austins Auto.. Gene's Repair is in Eagle Lake lol.. basically to get there I just kept pushing the gas over and over again and then once it let me accelerate so I drove the whole way there without letting off the gas. Coming home I pulled onto 14 and the car wouldn't accelerate for like a full minute.. so I was going down the left lane of 14 at 5 mph with cars whizzing by me on the right. An F350 almost creamed me; he saw me at the last minute. I was ready to putt into the ditch.

I haven't painted the rims yet - I'm waiting until the car runs.

I think Sweet Sounds would probably charge you extra for installation of the other things since you didn't buy them there. Installation isn't very hard, though.

[accordlxi2.0]

umm if you can afford it.

well so the arm thingy does'nt push on the pump accel. diaphram??
on the throttle side their is an attachment to a rod and that rod goes from that side to the driver side, and in which control's that lever.
check to see if the rod is moving, if the rod is moving but not the lever on the pump accel. then their's like a spring, with a clip to hold it in place.
i hope you get it up and running.

[Wipeout]

Man, I hope I do too.. I am taking a road trip on Tuesday :(

The thing that is supposed to push down on the accelerator pump arm pushes down just fine, but the actual accelerator pump arm doesn't do anything. I can move it up and down and nothing happens.. and it doesn't return to all the way up like it should. It doesn't return anywhere, it just sits where I leave it.

Tomorrow after work I will try and take the carburetor out and take the top hat off. I have no idea what passages to blow out, but I have carb cleaner and compressed air. I'm armed, just not dangerous.. yet.

Anything else to check? The float works well (I am scared of breaking it).

[A20A1]

the spring goes on the bottom of the diaphragm...
the rod is supposed to touch the arm all the time...
the spring pushes the diaphragm up which raises the rod back up when you release the accelerator pedal... it is also when the diaphragm refils with gas.

then you press the pedal the arm pushes the rod down and the diaphragm is compressed and out squirts the gas...

do you even have a rod inside the hole for the arm to push on? a few people say that their rod fell out when working on the carb.

blow thru every fuel and air passage you find... empty the fuel bowl... do not blow thru the top hat passages, only clean those...

blow thru the carb passages though... start from the ones you see at the top... the compressed air should force the gunk out of the holes and into the float bowl where you can clean it up... oh and remove the accel diaphragm and the choke puller cause you don't want the compressed air to damage the diaphragm.

[accordlxi2.0]

um what he said, damn this is tough, well the float you really can't break well in my expieriance, i've adjusted the float so many time's gas did come out but, only thing i had to do was disconnect the fuel pump.
you probaly lost the arm, or something . . . .

[Wipeout]

The rod inside which hole for the arm to push on?

Thanks guys for not giving up on me yet. Once I get some energy I will begin the disassembly.

[Wipeout]

Hey A20A1 you should IM me back.. :p

[A20A1]

Hey A20A1 you should IM me back.. :p

Too impatient... :rolleyes: I was browsing the board... you IM'ed me as soon as I loged on. So I minimized your window untill I was able to finish what I was doing. You were on hold for like 5 mins? :dunno:

[Wipeout]

Normal people say hi or hold on or something lol
I figured you didn't see my window come up :)

At any rate IT WORKS!!!! Thank you guys, especially A20A1 for his extensive help!

Oh yeah, as for my problem: there were a bunch of things wrong. Apparently I had forgotten to put in the spring that pushes up on the accelerator pump diaphragm, although I remember putting that spring in. :dunno: Vacuum line #14 passage was full of crap so I sprayed a bunch of carb cleaner in there and everywhere else..

..and now for the big one. When I flipped the carburetor upside down, the primary venturi FELL OUT. There was no screw holding it in. I grabbed a spare bolt of the same size and bolted it in. I am pretty sure that is what was causing most of it.

Oh yeah I took the choke off too.

When I started it for the first time I forgot to plug the fuel solenoid thing in in the back and it ran like crap.. I was thinking ohhhhhh shit. But.. it works!!

Edit: oh yeah, I was positive I wiggled the booster venturis before, too.. I must really be going crazy.

[A20A1]

you should remove the top hat when wiggling the booster... but I believe I told people to slide it around, not just wiggle it... my fault I guess.

[Mike's89AccordLX]

hehehehe Adam I told you so about that spring. Oh and I caught a 1.5 lb Walleye and Caught and Released a 31" Northern. None of us knew how to clean a northern and we didn't have enough ice for me to keep it cool and take it to a mounting place. That was the biggest lake fish I've caughten and it was right after I got off the phone with you Adam.

-Mike

[Wipeout]

Man, I could have SWORN I put that in, though! I couldn't find it anywhere - not on the table where I switched diaphragms even. I think the carburetor ate it, straight up.

Nearing three feet of Northern, that's impressive!

[accordlxi2.0]

that's how powerful the a20 engine is,lol.