Need help - Cold start condition

[VTEC_Inside]

Ok, heres the deal.

I've got an '89 Accord LX Coupe with the dreaded carb (of course).

Just recentley I've been having a problem with it immediately following a cold start. The car starts fine, but within seconds it starts running really rough as if there is a vacuum leak. The smell of gas is pretty strong and it turned my plugs into little black soldiers pretty quick. If I tough it out and keep the revs up this condition slowly fades away and the car runs perfect until the next cold start.

I repaired the choke today (opens and closes fully now, verified) thinking that may have been causing it, but it did nothing to solve that problem. The car heats up much quicker now so it wasn't a waste of time anyway.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I'm tempted to take apart the Octopus box (as I refer to it) and have a look, but I don't know what I would be looking for.

Thanks in advance.

[shepherd79]

i would highly recoment you getting a honda shop manual. it has very good explanation about carb vacuum lines and what every part does.
the fuel you smell could be leaking gasket or o-ring in the carb.

[A20A1]

"Octopus box"
Cute :D

How is your coolant level?

[VTEC_Inside]

i would highly recoment you getting a honda shop manual. it has very good explanation about carb vacuum lines and what every part does.
the fuel you smell could be leaking gasket or o-ring in the carb.


I've been looking at the PDF manuals that I found through this site and I started to think it could be the choke opener, but the choke is open fully when hot and its running great then.

The fuel smell is more from it comming out the tailpipe unburnt then anything, it dissapears once the car is warm. Its very strange to me, I've been looking for conditions the carb is supposed to set when bone cold as that is the ONLY time this rough running occurs. It takes less than 2min for it to run fine, so something somewhere is closing, I just don't know what.

I'm just taking a break from having a look see again, I haven't started it today. I'm about to go out and start it and see if I can hear the leak.

P.S. I sent an email a while back about having my login name fixed, the "q" was a typo, anyone help me there too? lol :)

[A20A1]

I'll have to ask an Admin

[A20A1]

There is the hot air door diaphragm... is that working, and is the pre-heater hose hooked up to the exhaust manifold heat sheild?

Also there is the powervalve but I doubt that is stuck open cause it would run richer all the time.

Oh, you didn't say anything about your coolant level.

EGR possibly getting vacuum when cold?

Thermovalves?

[VTEC_Inside]

There is the hot air door diaphragm... is that working, and is the pre-heater hose hooked up to the exhaust manifold heat sheild?

Also there is the powervalve but I doubt that is stuck open cause it would run richer all the time.

Oh, you didn't say anything about your coolant level.

EGR possibly getting vacuum when cold?

Thermovalves?

The coolant level is fine. The hot air door works, its leaking slightly but it has been leaking the same amount for a long time without causing this type of situation. Pre-heater hose is in place.

I did notice this time that it seemed to be running pretty rich even as it had started to run "normal". I would rev it and be getting light black clouds out the tail pipe. That was with the air cleaner assembly removed and the required vacuum lines pluged. But once again, once it got to full running temp, it no longer did that either.

Haven't checked the EGR, don't know how, will look that up.

Thanks

[SteveDX89]

Am I only the one who noticed he said he has an LX coupe? Shame there is none.

[A20A1]

So maybe it's a DX... or a 4door with shaved rear doors. :D
Or some rebadging
Or a typo

[VTEC_Inside]

Am I only the one who noticed he said he has an LX coupe? Shame there is none.

I'll take pictures if you like. Up in Canada I don't think we ever had any Honda ending in DX.

Take our 4th generation Accords (and 5th I believe) for example. We had the LX, EX, and EX-R. I know that the -R's were simply EXs in the states, not sure about the others though.

Anywho, I've buttoned it all back up for today. I'll probably drop it by the shop sometime this week, I really can't be bothered to piss around with this shit anymore, hence the 2004 RSX-S replacement :)

I don't blame the mis-belief, god knows there are far too many trolls on the net.

This picture features my new car first and foremost, but you can see my '89 behind and to the left.

http://www.ferfolia.net/james/cd/thepair.jpg

Another side shot of my '89
http://home.cogeco.ca/~jferfolia/forumpics/my89.jpg

That 2nd pic was a couple years ago. The quarters are starting to go out on both sides again :(

[VTEC_Inside]

Thanks for the name fix too! :)

[VTEC_Inside]

Another Canadian thing (although unrelated) is that our RSX-S's come with gunmetal versions of the same rim that you guys have. Its hard to see in that pic though.

[SteveDX89]

I see what's going on. I didn't know you were from Canada (aka America, Jr. :D). Your LX is our DX. I gotcha now. Honda did a pretty gay thing with that.

[accordlxi2.0]

i had the same problem, start it up and it would choke on the gas.
try this when the engine is real cold, push the gas pedal once, DON'T START the car yet, take off the air cleaner and note the position the choke plate is in.
which should be fully closed.
start the car, then note the position of the choke air gap should be at least about 3-5 penny's wide.

if not then that's the problem.

[VTEC_Inside]

Already done that. I positioned the choke a little too far closed so its only about a penny and a bit open at initial startup, but even if I wide open the choke plate the same condition persists.

I won't be able to look at it again for a couple days, I'm taking it on a 500km round trip regardless since it runs fine 2min after starting it.

[VTEC_Inside]

Should have also added that it now has 351,000kms on it. I've had it since 213,000kms and the carb has never been serviced. I'm thinking its time for a rebuild depending on the cost.

[Wipeout]

I bought a rebuild kit for $35. It's not that hard and you learn a lot.

[VTEC_Inside]

Update...

I left the car at the dealer Monday and picked it up today (Wednesday).

They were unable to determine the exact problem because I told them to keep the bill in check while I was gone.

What they did determine is that it is in some way related to the choke puller as has been suggested. This is where it gets a bit weird though.

The choke puller will function if connected directly to another vacuum line (as opposed to the one that is supposed to operate it). It doesn't work if you just hook a pump to it for some reason.

Anywayz, I haven't consulted the almight service manual yet, but they did advise a quick workaround. I went an bought a couple T's and some hose and tapped into the one vacuum line at the rear left of the air cleaner, and then T'd it into the one at the choke puller. Bottom line it, it seems to work fine now, but I will continue to look into it.

My mechanic told me that Thermovalve A is the likely culprit, but again, I just got back from a mini-vacation and have not consulted the bible (aka service manual) yet.

Thanks for all the replies.

[A20A1]

Did I not say thermosvalves... :D

Anyways there is an internal vacuum line to the choke puller, close to where the choke puller bolts to the carb body there is a flange and has an O-ring in it... the hole / passage thru the carb body ends up reaching the base of the carb thru the holes drilled into the EFE plate...

now either the EFE plate hole is clogged or leaky that will affect vacuum signal to the choke puller...

so either there is a faulty / leaky / wrong type of efe gasket installed covering the hole not allowing the cholke puller to get a vacuum signal... or... it's not sealing the area surrounding the passage, weakening the vacuum signal.... or.... there is a block in the passage leading thru the carb, blocking vacuum... or... the O-ring is leaky, weakening vacuum.

The diaphragm could also be leaky but i doubt it.

[VTEC_Inside]

Update: Cold weather has returned.

Car starts and runs fine initially now, but I believe the choke puller is definitely screwed now.

It starts up and runs pretty good for a bit now and then starts to run like shit after a few minutes. I popped the air cleaner lid off this morning and sure enough the choke plate has only opened about a pennies worth. I reached under and opened it more by hand and all is well.

The clogged internal passage theory makes a lot of sense now. When I originally did my little vacuum T in it must have been enough to operate the choke puller despite any leak. Now after a bit of time its probably perma-screwed.

I think I'm just going to rig up a manual choke. I'll save ripping it apart for next spring if at all.

[VTEC_Inside]

Just started contemplating rebuilding the carb.

Still kinda intimidated with the thought off pulling it right off the car though, so many damn vacuum lines... :(

[POS carb]

the choke has adjustment tabs on the linkage, you can modify the opening a bit with this
if you need more adjustment (less choke) you drill out the 3 rivets on the heater and rotate it, find a spot to set it, then find a way to secure it (I used wall anchors and screws on mine!)
you should make sure that the choke heater is recieving 12V

[VTEC_Inside]

the choke has adjustment tabs on the linkage, you can modify the opening a bit with this
if you need more adjustment (less choke) you drill out the 3 rivets on the heater and rotate it, find a spot to set it, then find a way to secure it (I used wall anchors and screws on mine!)
you should make sure that the choke heater is recieving 12V

The thing is, I think the heater is the ONLY thing opening it, and it takes too long.

I've already removed the rivets. I just used 2 new ones to re-secure it when I moved it, they are smaller rivets and easier to remove.

[VTEC_Inside]

*Update*

The weather finally co-operated and I finally had the balls to rip the choke mechanism off to replace it.

I ended up stripping the head of the bottom screw on the choke puller and the screw that holds the linkage to the choke shaft.

With all the other screws removed I was still able to break the choke puller one free by rotating the puller itself. I had to drill out the one on the choke shaft.

Anyways, I put the other choke assembly I had on it, and it works again like a charm.

I haven't determined with any certainty yet, but it appears as though the puller did have a small leak at the edge of the diaphragm, it didnt appear to be sealing against the housing very well in one spot.