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NXRacer
08-25-2004, 03:30 PM
So i've been thinking, since Seans setup is no longer an option i've been thinking about what else we could use to control timing and fuel for turbo and other high performance setups. Although that apparently was a good setup, there are a lot of other options out there for cheaper. A LOT of people have been using Uberdata and Hondata for a long time and from everybody i've seen/heard using it, they've had pretty good results. Lots of people are using it now to turbo the F22's which is a pretty similar engine to ours. (~2liter, SOHC etc etc).

My biggest problem i have right now is trying to find the code so i can import it to Uber/Hondata. I think that if i could get this, i have a few people i know that are really good with tuning in uberdata and hondata and i could probably get a good setup up and working. The best thing is that all you have to do is buy a blank chip and a chipable ecu (civics would plug right in to our wiring harness) and away you go. All you need is to know/find somebody who has a burner. I know of a couple people that will burn a chip for you and send it back ready to go.

I know that AEM and a couple other companies have stand alone systems that you can wire up, but i know for a fact that most members here can't afford $1500 for an ECM system and those that do probably wouldnt mind paying a small fraction of that price for a system that works (from what i've heard) just as good.

discuss

Accordtheory
08-25-2004, 04:04 PM
you still have to modify the distributor/ignition system regardless of whatever you do, because the 86-89 accord does not have computer controlled timing. (centrifugal/vacuum control) I tried to fit a couple computer controlled distributors from other hondas with no success. If you modify (lock) the distributor's advance mechanism, intercept the signal from the ignitor, send it to the ecm, then back from the ecm to power the coil, you have computer controlled timing. I don't know how much wiring would be involved to run a different computer, but my friend changed the harness/computer on a crx to run the si engine and it was a TOTAL pain in the ass, all the wiring in the dash had to be changed too. I was sort of considering an integra harness so I could run the AEM EMS..but I can't afford that shit right now, and I still don't know exactly how to intercept the signal from the ignitor, or even what kind of signal the integra ecm is supposed to see from the distributor. Another option would be a system like the tec3 that uses distributorless ignition, but I doubt anyone on this forum will ever buy one, as they cost like over $2k. Probably what I will end up doing in the meantime before I sue Sean and force him to extract his head from his ass and send me my shit is going back to my previous supplemental injection setup, tuned with a wideband, and a boost dependent ignition retard. A lot of people use the J&S safeguard for ignition control, but it doesn't have it's own coil driver circuit, you have to use an ignition amplifier or another ignitor. I couldn't get it to work properly though, and I never figured out why.

NXRacer
08-25-2004, 04:12 PM
what all dizzy's have you tried? I thought that the integra dizzy's worked and they were computer controlled? I think our biggest problem is that too many people here rely on other people to do all the work for them and dont try to do things on their own.

A20A1
08-25-2004, 04:53 PM
What about Openloop who used the 4th gen distributor? is that comp controlled?

Also look in the FAQ turbo link in my sig, I listed a bunch of companies offering standalone.

Accordtheory
08-25-2004, 05:34 PM
I think the ones I tried were from a civc, integra, and a crx. They were just lying around in my friend's garage. He has a lot of honda shit. I haven't tried the 4th gen accord distributor yet though.

A20A1
08-25-2004, 05:53 PM
..
http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=18160
..

ET2
08-25-2004, 06:27 PM
If you want total control of your system this is the best way to go
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33596&item=7917280871&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
http://www.centuryperformance.com/detail.asp?product_id=MAL-685
your looking at about $820 dollars + shipping but with this setup you can run anything except vtec thats $200 more, good luck peace out party on

RobT5580
08-25-2004, 06:54 PM
Anything is possible but money can be an issue for a lot of people. If you get a conversion harness you can run pretty much any system if you modify the distributor or go with a coil on plug conversion and go distributorless. Im using the AEM EMS with a conversion harness and later will be doing the coil on plug conversion if i feel need be.

If i were to do a low boost A20A3 setup i would most likely use a SAFC to control the fuel and a MSD BTM for spark. There are many cheap ways to do it. Justin used a BTM and a FMU and some check valves. I was surprised he used the FMU becuase his fuel pressure was so high on high boost but he proved it worked fine. But i think the average person here wanting to boost would do a low boost setup and that would work fine.

ET2
08-25-2004, 07:14 PM
Your right but how long will that ghetto setup last, if your going to spend the money buy a piece at a time and do it right in the long run you'll be better off but thats imo

RobT5580
08-25-2004, 07:26 PM
Well i was just giving some good choices that will work fine on a low boost setup. I went the extra mile maybe 2 seeing how i have over 10k into my setup. But that was only possible because i made some good money this summer that was never expected. Realistically i know a lot of people here were in the same boat as i was working full time along with going to school, girlfriend, bills, etc so i know its hard to spend that kind of money on a project. But i also have a lot pushing me since im in my last year of college and i will be putting all of my money into my business upon graduation and i know it will be awhile before i get into another big project like this. But this should keep me busy for a while as i have to do the body and interior which will be peanuts compared to the engine work.

But if you can do it i suggest taking the time and doing a nice setup on a built bottom end and a decent EMS. I thought it was going to be hard getting parts for the B20A but there was only one part i could not get. Every manufacturer i sent a sample to matched it up or made one for me and most were very reasonable. The only part i couldnt get was a 3-layer metal head gasket from Cometic so i settled for a copper one because i know the stock wont take high boost. I spent a year on this project and it will be done very shortly but it was well worth the wait now that i see all the good parts that went into this engine.

ET2
08-25-2004, 07:43 PM
It's all in how much control you want

NXRacer
08-26-2004, 07:46 AM
i think you guys are really thinking too hard about this. If we can figure out how to get the code out of the A20 ECU (or b20 for that matter) and convert to non-vacuum advance dizzy, fine engine control is easy. Hondata/Uberdata is super easy to use and control. And for the people who don't have access to a tuner/dyno etc they can just use the code thats already been tuned and proven to work.

One good thing about doing the hond/uberdata is that we can wire up a knock sensor which is a VERY good thing for those that are going with boost.

My only problem is that i've been searching all around and can't seem to find somebody who can get the code out. The F22 dizzy may be a really good alternative.

RobT5580
08-26-2004, 09:55 AM
You can go with the cheaper route with the FMU, BTM, and check valves and you will be fine. And they now make an adjustable FMU which is even better. JonnyO modified his A20 distributor for use with the haltech and im sure it can be done for other systems. But you already know the FMU, BTM and check valves work fine because thats how Justin had his setup for the whole time it was on the road.

shepherd79
08-26-2004, 11:42 AM
it is very easy to control the ignition. Crane cams makes a kit that will convert our dizy to fully digital one. you won't even have the vacuum lines. crane Hi6S will do the ignition control for you. you can plug in 3bar map sensor to it and it will retart the timing according to your setting.
as for fuel. simple Apexi SAFC, air fuel ratio gauge and FMU

A20A1
08-26-2004, 12:34 PM
Shepherd, Is that only for boosted EFI?
What about N/A carbed cars, do we still need the map sensor?
If so can we hook up a universal map and go form there?

AccordEpicenter
08-26-2004, 01:22 PM
you still have to modify the distributor/ignition system regardless of whatever you do, because the 86-89 accord does not have computer controlled timing. (centrifugal/vacuum control) I tried to fit a couple computer controlled distributors from other hondas with no success. If you modify (lock) the distributor's advance mechanism, intercept the signal from the ignitor, send it to the ecm, then back from the ecm to power the coil, you have computer controlled timing. I don't know how much wiring would be involved to run a different computer, but my friend changed the harness/computer on a crx to run the si engine and it was a TOTAL pain in the ass, all the wiring in the dash had to be changed too. I was sort of considering an integra harness so I could run the AEM EMS..but I can't afford that shit right now, and I still don't know exactly how to intercept the signal from the ignitor, or even what kind of signal the integra ecm is supposed to see from the distributor. Another option would be a system like the tec3 that uses distributorless ignition, but I doubt anyone on this forum will ever buy one, as they cost like over $2k.

All of this is true, and adapting an ecu and retuning everything just to get ahold of timing issues isnt worth it... Im gonna run an MSD BTM... any decent ignition box out there these days (made by MSD, CRANE, Jacobs etc) can be setup for some kind of boost retard adjustment... For a standard MSD BTM you can get on ebay for $100, it beats trying to get a hacked up wiring harness/ecu/distributor to work, esp for low boost... If you need to go stand alone you might need to do what johnny did and run some kind of standalone, Electromotive or Haltech probably.

shepherd79
08-26-2004, 05:17 PM
Shepherd, Is that only for boosted EFI?
What about N/A carbed cars, do we still need the map sensor?
If so can we hook up a universal map and go form there?

since the map sensor connects to the ignition box and not the ECU, you should be able to get away with it on carbed motors.
this is what i have http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&lvl=5&prt=1967&action=partSpec&partNumber=6000-6300

you can download the manual from here http://www.cranecams.com/pdf/90006300a.pdf

to convert to digital ignition you can use this http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&lvl=3&prt=145&action=partSpec&partNumber=700-2292
or this http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&lvl=5&prt=160&action=partSpec&partNumber=700-0292

to use the retard function you will need this http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&lvl=4&prt=1979&action=partSpec&partNumber=9000-0100
with map sensor http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&lvl=4&prt=1980&action=partSpec&partNumber=9000-0110


if you are going to try to use this system i would highly recomend to call the crane tech support and ask them what exactly you will need.
i hope that helped.

Robs89LXi
08-26-2004, 05:39 PM
i think you guys are really thinking too hard about this. If we can figure out how to get the code out of the A20 ECU (or b20 for that matter) and convert to non-vacuum advance dizzy, fine engine control is easy. Hondata/Uberdata is super easy to use and control. And for the people who don't have access to a tuner/dyno etc they can just use the code thats already been tuned and proven to work.

One good thing about doing the hond/uberdata is that we can wire up a knock sensor which is a VERY good thing for those that are going with boost.

My only problem is that i've been searching all around and can't seem to find somebody who can get the code out. The F22 dizzy may be a really good alternative.

Problem with our ECU is that it is not chippable, so codes are useless. There are a couple of folks on PGMFI.org that are experimenting with a type of piggyback system, but have had no luck to date. Either way, they are not using our one of a kind PJ-0, so we are pretty much out of luck with that. Uberdata is really setup for OBD-1 anyway. Turboedit would be the way to go for OBD-0.

My plan for boost is to use a P-75 ECU from an Integra with a 4th gen. Accord distributor, and 4-wire O2 sensor. This is the same setup that Darryl from Openloop uses on his car, and according to him, it works great. I've already got someone who can do the conversion harness, and after that, it should just be a matter of making a bracket for the dizzy, and a couple plug changes on the engine harness for the dizzy and O2 sensor. This will basically be an OBD-0 to OBD-1 conversion, and will allow the use of free software such as Uberdata. It is a much less expensive way to go, and should be just about infinitly tunable with Uberdata software.

Wish me luck!

shepherd79
08-26-2004, 07:06 PM
Problem with our ECU is that it is not chippable, so codes are useless. There are a couple of folks on PGMFI.org that are experimenting with a type of piggyback system, but have had no luck to date. Either way, they are not using our one of a kind PJ-0, so we are pretty much out of luck with that. Uberdata is really setup for OBD-1 anyway. Turboedit would be the way to go for OBD-0.

My plan for boost is to use a P-75 ECU from an Integra with a 4th gen. Accord distributor, and 4-wire O2 sensor. This is the same setup that Darryl from Openloop uses on his car, and according to him, it works great. I've already got someone who can do the conversion harness, and after that, it should just be a matter of making a bracket for the dizzy, and a couple plug changes on the engine harness for the dizzy and O2 sensor. This will basically be an OBD-0 to OBD-1 conversion, and will allow the use of free software such as Uberdata. It is a much less expensive way to go, and should be just about infinitly tunable with Uberdata software.

Wish me luck!

what i like to know, is where the heck are you going to mount the knock sensor?

RobT5580
08-26-2004, 07:13 PM
The knock sensor is easy to mount. I mounted mine in a whole for the breather and it works as the knock and holds the breather in place. You guys can still run a knock sensor if you get a special controller (cant recall the name) but tom@ludespeed told me about it before. It was able to retard the timing and watched for knock. There are many choices available and its all about how much power you want and your wallet.

shepherd79
08-26-2004, 07:38 PM
The knock sensor is easy to mount. I mounted mine in a whole for the breather and it works as the knock and holds the breather in place. You guys can still run a knock sensor if you get a special controller (cant recall the name) but tom@ludespeed told me about it before. It was able to retard the timing and watched for knock. There are many choices available and its all about how much power you want and your wallet.

where did you mount it again? Breather? which one?
the knock sensor should be mounted in the block somewhere for more accurate reading.

Low Tek
08-26-2004, 08:07 PM
man.. I am soo screwed, I have no clue what any of your are talkin about.. I mean, I know what a knock sensor, and a map sensor is, but when it comes to wireing, I have no clue

RobT5580
08-26-2004, 08:23 PM
Its on the block where the breather tank is on the back. Its probably the best place to do it since the block is already tapped but you will have to re-size it since the knock thread is bigger. I know the A20A3 has a similar setup as my B20A so it should work out for you guys as well.

And Low Tek you dont need all of this stuff being talked about. The stock map sensor is fine for under 10PSI and the knock is more of a safety device. If you wanted a basic low boost setup I would get a MSD BTM ignition and a Vortech FMU to control the fuel. You also really should use a wide band O2 to be sure your air/fuel ratio is correct. That is about as basic as you can go in our situation. And for wiring you would only have to wire up the ignition for the most part which has a FAQ about it.

Oh and that product for the knock sensor was called the J&S Safeguard so if anyone is interested they can look it up. Iv never used this so i cant give any feedback on it as tom recommended it when using a stock ECU.

Low Tek
08-26-2004, 08:38 PM
And Low Tek you dont need all of this stuff being talked about. The stock map sensor is fine for under 10PSI and the knock is more of a safety device. If you wanted a basic low boost setup I would get a MSD BTM ignition and a Vortech FMU to control the fuel. You also really should use a wide band O2 to be sure your air/fuel ratio is correct. That is about as basic as you can go in our situation. And for wiring you would only have to wire up the ignition for the most part which has a FAQ about it.


but the thing is, I was plannin to boost more then 10, more like 20PSI at the track and 15 on the street

RobT5580
08-27-2004, 06:25 AM
You can still do that but you will need to upgrade the map sensor or use check valves like Justin did. If you were on a budget i would get a SAFC, MSD, BTM, and some sort of a wideband to make sure the air/fuel is fine. You dont have to chip the ECU like other want and i would preffer the SAFC becuase you can adjust it as of burning a new chip. There are many ways to do it but the most critical part is the air to fuel ratio.

thegreatdane
08-27-2004, 06:50 AM
Rob do you have the B20A ECU (I know you wont be using it) or know anything about it? Seeing that the b20a distributor is obd-1 makes you wonder about the ECU and chipping.

NXRacer
08-27-2004, 07:17 AM
you can get conversion harnesses that will convert from OBD-0 to 1.

I'm thinking that converting to the F22 dizzy with OBD-1 would be the best route for a do-it-yourself home made turbo setup.

RobT5580
08-27-2004, 10:53 AM
I dont have the B20A ECU since im using the AEM EMS. If i wanted to i could use the prelude ecu and i believe a few of the guys have already chipped them with the few available options.

smufguy
08-28-2004, 11:42 AM
yep, thats where mine is gonna go to. Just like Rob mentioned, you want the knock sensor as close to the cylinders as you can. ans the best place on a Stock A20A1 block is where the secondary thermo sensor is on the back of the block, near the oil filter. I don tknow how it might fit there, but i bet with some help it can be put in place without sacrificing it. I know all the EMS manufacturers say u can run without a Knocksensor. but IMo, i would rather run one, even tho with good tuninng i wont need it.

But either way, to be on the subject, i would say u might look into some Cheaper EMS Caleb. like the Apexi power FC or the Motech or even the Accel DFI systems. yeah rigging ur own stuff is cool, but its not worth the time and headache. also check into crank trigg or even magneto setups for ignition. I know im gonna run crank trigger for sure.

Justin86
09-06-2004, 08:17 AM
Damn glad this thread got started. I've been gone for a month and came back to find that everything is going to hell. No stuff from Sean any more and I'm on my own for engine management and a GOOD head.

you can get conversion harnesses that will convert from OBD-0 to 1.

I'm thinking that converting to the F22 dizzy with OBD-1 would be the best route for a do-it-yourself home made turbo setup.
Yea that sounds like a good thing and keep it cheap. I'm thinking that going to invidual coils and using the civic ECU, since ours is a pain to chip. Need to get back on PGMFi and start playing with this pipe bender........ :D

carotman
09-12-2004, 05:49 AM
Well guys, I don't know if you actually read the engine swap section but I did all the work for you and came with a valid Pk2 conversion How-to I think. :D This conversion would nearly apply to any ECU conversion for an A20A since I used the A20A wire harness(minus the ECU pinout)

Mike from Openloop successfuly installed an F22A distributor on the A20A also...

Just follow my fire harness conversion and you can use any OBD-1 ECU with uberdata. The only difference is that you need to route a wire for the O2 heater (or disable it in uberdata.)

I have access to a F22A distributor so I *might* try to fit it on a A20A in a couple of months... I don't have an A20A in my car anymore but I'm sure I can manage to fit it in.

You guys are welcome to try this too....

NXRacer
09-12-2004, 04:57 PM
me and justin are pretty tired of the lack of cheap engine management so we're gonna start working on the F22 dizzy with uberdata. The dyno run this weekend was REALLY dissapointing.

Justin86
09-12-2004, 10:05 PM
yea getting another new head, with custom header, and OBD-1 swap will help my numbers big time. But really looking at the F22 swap will be the cheapest and easiest swap for everyone. Plus with using honda/uberdata you can get a lot of help tunning the F22 ECU and me and caleb could do all the first tuning on it, then pass on what we found out to everyone else to make it easier for them. ;)

smufguy
09-13-2004, 06:02 AM
the F22 distributor (the one off the 4g) was prone to have its internal ignitor blow more than its suppose to. How are you guys gonna over come that fact? Are you guys running external coil conversion or something?

carotman
09-13-2004, 06:24 AM
That coil/igniter is just a lame excuse for someone wanting to sell his DIS ignition system......

They do fail.... after like 12 years or so....

If someone's affraid to use them, just use one with an external coil (they were available in canada at least) and use an igniter from a 88-91 Prelude... less wiring would be involved anyway.


BTW guys, I see alot of wrong information here. The F22A ECU cannot be tuned with uberdata. you can only use the Civic and integra ECU. You cannot add a Knock sensor either because it requires an add-on board inside the ECU. ONly the H22A and B18C have those. So, unless you get the P72 ECU for really cheak, that's not goingto happen. Another option would be to take the add-on board from a P14 ecu which is a bit cheaper.

Anyway, it seems I'll have to find a way to mount the distributor on my old A20A in the garage... that will be my winter project I guess.

Justin86
09-14-2004, 08:36 AM
external coil conversion .......... ;)

http://www.accordinglydone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=311&highlight=f22+distributor

Justanothermike
09-14-2004, 01:01 PM
the F22 distributor (the one off the 4g) was prone to have its internal ignitor blow more than its suppose to. How are you guys gonna over come that fact? Are you guys running external coil conversion or something?


Remove the Ignitor from the distributor and get an external coil. U do that and i bet u will never have a problem with the distributor. Darryl has it set up like that so its also takes 2 seconds to change the ignitor if it should go bad. Only reason why that thing blows is because of the heat that is created inside the distributor.

NXRacer
09-14-2004, 01:07 PM
Mike, you talked earlier about how you had used the P75 ECU with the F22 distributor conversion. Was there any problems using a DOHC Vtec ECU on a SOHC non-vtec setup?? or did you change out the programming for something thats closer to the A20 setup. I'm looking into which chipable ECU is gonna work best with this setup.

Justanothermike
09-14-2004, 01:35 PM
u can use a vtec ecu but u'll obviously have some check engine lights. I've used a GSR p72 on it before but its definately not the ideal computer for the set up. It will run but less then ideal. if u want a knock sensor i think H23 p14 but i believe the injectors on that are peak and hold. so ur running into complications there. i think p75 is the best ecu for the setup.

carotman
09-15-2004, 07:26 AM
The P75 is indeed really good. Just add the IAB hardware on it if you want to use a IAB manifold (88-89 Accords) and you're set. NXRacer, the P75 is the Integra LS non-vtec ECU. the Vtec ECU is the P72.

As I see Justanothermike agrees with me. The distributor is quite reliable if you use an external coil.

Anyway, you guys just have to try it.

NXRacer
09-15-2004, 07:40 AM
this is some awesome info. thanks mike and carotman!

Justin86
09-15-2004, 08:11 AM
oh yea trust me, I will be doing this very soon

Elijah
09-15-2004, 09:14 AM
Well it would be nice to have hondata or something of the sort.I think I might have some time next week.If I do I will do some playing.But for now.msd btm,fmu,msd sci,bigger pump,fpr and bigger injectors work just fine.

Oyvind Ryeng
09-15-2004, 10:18 AM
Hondata is possible with another ECU, I even think they (atleast the Uberdata-folks) have something for OBD0 ECU's also.

carotman
09-15-2004, 10:24 AM
You can use Ghettodyne to program a Civic/Integra OBD-0 ECU. Our PJ0 ECU will not work with such a program. Besides, the PJ0 has no control whatsoever on the ignition timing which is bad for tuning.

A OBD-1 distributor will solve many problems we're facing with aftermarket support and tuning ability.

NXRacer
09-15-2004, 10:30 AM
Hondata is possible with another ECU, I even think they (atleast the Uberdata-folks) have something for OBD0 ECU's also.
the problem with our ignition system is that its vacuum advanced so there's no way of accurately controlling timing. With OBD-1 and uberdata, timing is totally controlable. Also it supports datalogging and goodies like that.

4sillypwr
09-15-2004, 08:37 PM
Good to see some new and exciting ideas over here at 3geez. Swapping a D-series dist onto the a20 head shouldnt be that hard. It plugs into the cam just fine. the only problem will be with mounting. I havent looked at a f22 dist lately but i will check out my bro-in-laws accord this week. In my opinion the best way would be to cut the legs off the dist housing and have new ones tigged on. shouldnt be that bad. get the dist mounted and it's only a "little" bit of wiring to get FREE engine manegment. I brought up this topic with sean in person about 8-9 months ago and i got the ole "inferior" honda code speal from him. Blundar from pgmfi seemed to think it was a good idea though. So keep up the good work. If i ever get my lazy ass into gear i might actually contribute to this project.

-David

NXRacer
09-16-2004, 11:23 AM
here's a conversion harness for OBD - OBDI conversion. only 100 bucks.
Evasive Motorsports conversion harness (http://www.evasivemotorsports.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=EVSOBD0-1&Category_Code=OBDHARNESS)

Justin86
09-16-2004, 03:06 PM
so how about what exactely to we need......
-conversion harness $100
-P75 ECU about $50 on ebay
-F22 dizzy best bet j/y $100
- custom wiring thanks to cartman

carotman
09-16-2004, 10:38 PM
The Conversion Harness can cost around 20 bucks if you're willing to do it on your own. All you need is a busted OBD-0 ECU and some plugs from a OBD-1 ECU... I got the busted ECU for free at the junkyard and the plugs were $15 CDN...

I'll do my conversion harness and post a How-To :)

Justin86
09-17-2004, 08:58 AM
well I got a few extra ECU's, have to hit up the j/y for the OBD-1 plugs

NXRacer
09-17-2004, 09:07 AM
seems to me that rewiring plugs for OBD-1 is just asking for trouble. besides, it also seems like a lot of hassle. I'll spend the 100 bucks and know that im getting it right the first time.

Mike's89AccordLX
09-17-2004, 09:08 AM
Hmmm I will have to definately check into this when I get done with my carb to efi swap. Since I'm crossing over to the darkside I better get ready to start a turbo project by getting parts here and there for a longtime since I have to save up for a house and a wedding.

thegreatdane
09-17-2004, 04:42 PM
Are the OBD-0 to OBD-1 conversion harness's available a direct fit onto our existing harness/plugs?

Justin86
09-17-2004, 06:08 PM
Are the OBD-0 to OBD-1 conversion harness's available a direct fit onto our existing harness/plugs?
Yea all the OBD-0 ECU have the same plugs same with the OBD-1.

Elijah
09-17-2004, 06:55 PM
So after someone has everything how much work would it be? And would you need to be really good with cars and wireing? Or just a little bit of brains will work?

I want more people to get into this.I thought if we show it's not to hard we can interest more people.

RobT5580
09-17-2004, 06:59 PM
www.boomslang.com he will make you what ever you want and he made my harness custom for the b20a obd-1 conversion for the AEM EMS. All he needs is a wiring diagram and what you want and he will do it.

NXRacer
09-17-2004, 10:09 PM
justin already has all the stuff for the conversion except a P06 ECU. The F22a6 distributors also have external coils which is good. Now all we really need to test run this setup is a base code that will work for the a20a because nobody can get the a20 code from the ECU.

Robs89LXi
09-18-2004, 06:04 AM
so how about what exactely to we need......
-conversion harness $100
-P75 ECU about $50 on ebay
-F22 dizzy best bet j/y $100
- custom wiring thanks to cartman

Don't forget 4-wire O2 sensor that the P75 will be looking for.


Yea all the OBD-0 ECU have the same plugs same with the OBD-1.

You are right; the plugs are the same, but the pin locations/functions can be different between different ECUs.


justin already has all the stuff for the conversion except a P06 ECU. The F22a6 distributors also have external coils which is good. Now all we really need to test run this setup is a base code that will work for the a20a because nobody can get the a20 code from the ECU.

You should not need the A20 base code, because you won't be using the A20 ECU (PJ-0). If you are using the P75, our engine should run fine off it's base maps. With applications like Uberdata added, these can then be manipulated to exactly fit our cars, NA or boosted.

Gregg86DX
09-18-2004, 08:33 AM
So after someone has everything how much work would it be? And would you need to be really good with cars and wireing? Or just a little bit of brains will work?

I want more people to get into this.I thought if we show it's not to hard we can interest more people.

Once you get an OBD1 distributor, the rest is pretty easy. You need to get a good wiring diagram of the ECU you want to use and the diagram for your car. Neither are too tough to find, then you start matching up. The nice thing about honda ECU's is they tend to use the same wires in the same pin location across ecu generations. For example, the MAP sensor will be pins c15,c11 and c14 on all the Honda OBD0 ECU's I have seen. When I put the Prelude PK2 ECU in my car, 90% of the wiring matched up, and I know the Prelude guys are replacing their PK2 with OBD1 P75 Integra ECU's with just a conversion harness, so I should be able to as well (and I plan to).

Bottom line is this is not rocket science and a lot of people have been working on Honda ECU's for a long time (just not for our Accords). Once we find a solution to the OBD1 distributor, the rest will be pretty easy.

Gregg

Justin86
09-18-2004, 08:41 AM
ok the ECU will be easy to get online same with the O2 sensor. I have the OBD-1 harness, but as to which wire goes where I have no clue and can't find a pin out for the ECU?

Gregg86DX
09-18-2004, 09:07 AM
ok the ECU will be easy to get online same with the O2 sensor. I have the OBD-1 harness, but as to which wire goes where I have no clue and can't find a pin out for the ECU?

Do you know which ECU you are going to use? For example, if you chose the P75, then you need to find the wiring diagram for a 92-95 Integra. I'll poke around and try to find the diagram since this is the ECU I plan on using as well.

Gregg

carotman
09-18-2004, 11:50 AM
If you guys are going to use the OBD0 to obd1 conversion harness, be prepared to add wires to your existing harness and swap some pins on the harness (like I did)

Also, like I said, you do not absolutely need a 4 wire Sensor. the heater can be disabled in the ECU program.

Justin86
09-20-2004, 09:20 AM
well I could use either the P06 or the P75, I'm just waiting on some help for the wiring from cartman, cause I can get either ECU no problem.

Justin86
09-22-2004, 10:53 AM
well I did some searching and found a pin out for the OBD-1 harness, and the entire ODB-0 to OBD-1 swap. He used a VTEC ECU and different dizzy and there is some differences depending on different yrs. But this is a very good start. http://www.pgmfi.org/twiki/bin/view/Library/KurtsOBD0-OBD1

4sillypwr
09-22-2004, 06:49 PM
The 88-91 civic/crx and 3g accord/2g prelude wiring schematics are very differant. It's doesnt really apply to this swap.

carotman- you got more info?

-david

Justin86
09-22-2004, 07:01 PM
well most OBD-0 systems are the same, but there is some differences. Some control more and some less. I'm trying to work out the differences between the systems right now. Mostly cause the OBD-0 to OBD-1 conversion harness is not made just for your model it is suppose to be universal for all OBD-0 models. So if pin B14 controls the alternator on the accord, but on the CRX it controls the main relay, there is going to be some problems with these all ready made conversion harness, since it is suppose to work for all OBD-0.
So the link I gave should be good so far until I have more time to completely pick through it to look for any differences that will cause us problems if someone bought it.

Robs89LXi
09-23-2004, 03:21 AM
Not quite true. I've got an Exel file with our PJ-0 (obd-0) and a P-72 (obd-1, very similar to P-75) pinouts. If anyone wants it, pm me.

thegreatdane
09-23-2004, 06:02 AM
What year is the PJ0 pinout?

4sillypwr
09-23-2004, 06:27 AM
88-91 is obd-0. our cars are pre-obd. i compare the wiring diagrams once. they are differant.

carotman
09-23-2004, 07:37 AM
obd-0, pre obd is the same thing.

Gregg86DX
09-23-2004, 07:50 AM
well I could use either the P06 or the P75, I'm just waiting on some help for the wiring from cartman, cause I can get either ECU no problem.

Hey Justin, do you have a good source for the P75 in Oregon? I am looking for one right now.

Gregg

Justin86
09-23-2004, 08:54 AM
Well here in town there is no more P75, and they want $100 for any ECU some are more. I'm going back to look at some civic's that I belive have the P06.

OMG rob you have had a pinouts all this time..........

NXRacer
09-23-2004, 09:19 AM
from what i've been told the P06 is probably a better option then the P75.

Robs89LXi
09-23-2004, 10:28 AM
Well here in town there is no more P75, and they want $100 for any ECU some are more. I'm going back to look at some civic's that I belive have the P06.

OMG rob you have had a pinouts all this time..........

No, I've got pinout for the P-72. Very similar to the P-75, but there are a couple wires that are different. I was waiting to do mine and get it right before I posted. Try to save anyone else from having to reinvent the wheel. Just haven't gotten around to it yet, 'cause I'm still building the engine. If you guys figure it out first though, please be sure to post it.



from what i've been told the P06 is probably a better option then the P75.

I don't see why that would be. You have to still do a wire converion, and find a distributor to fit, but you still end up with an OBD-0 car. For the same amount of work, you could have OBD-1 ECU control for better/more tunability. P-06s are probably easier/cheaper to find though. I guess it's just up to what you want.

NXRacer
09-23-2004, 10:34 AM
the p06 ECU is OBDI US 92-95 Civic DX (according to hondata)

Robs89LXi
09-23-2004, 11:32 AM
the p06 ECU is OBDI US 92-95 Civic DX (according to hondata)

Oops. Sorry, I was thinking PM6.

Gregg86DX
09-23-2004, 12:08 PM
from what i've been told the P06 is probably a better option then the P75.

Just curious, what about the P06 makes it better?

Gregg

maka_RTH
09-23-2004, 12:21 PM
here's an OBD-1 ecu pinout..., not sure if the P75 will be the same..., lemme look some more to see if i can find a specific P75 pinout.
http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=478377&uid=999314580&postid=9932539#9932539

a couple guys here (http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=921439) say the the p72 ecu pinout (http://tech2.hybridgarage.com/ecu.php?ecutype=p72_obd1) is the same as the p75, minus the vtec stuff. *edit: www.pgmfi.org also said that the p75 uses the same board as the p72..., but unsuccessful at making p75 vtec capable(that shouldn't matter for us though).

also from www.pgmfi.org, how-to add a knock sensor to the p75 (http://www.pgmfi.org/twiki/bin/view/Library/AddAKnockSensor)

i'm also starting to think that we could run a p72 w/out the vtec stuff hooked up, and that would already have a knock sensor capability.

Justin86
09-23-2004, 01:01 PM
Well the pinouts between the P72 and P75 I think would be the same, just one has the VTEC.
here is my stuff 94 accord dizzy, P06 ECU, OBD-1 harness, OBD-0 plugs
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/469581_140_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/469581_141_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/469581_142_full.jpg

carotman
09-23-2004, 01:36 PM
haaaa finally someone is getting there!

Accordtheory
09-23-2004, 05:56 PM
yeah, im probably about to be next, I like where this is going, fuck a gm computer with non sequential injection

Gregg86DX
09-23-2004, 09:15 PM
Here is a link to some more pin-out lists:

http://www.g2ic.com/tegtips/engine/15.html

There is a link on there to a spreadsheet with several ECU's, including the P72 and PR4. The PR4 should be the same as a P75 (they are both OBD1 LS Integra ECU's). If you compare the P72 and PR4, you can see they are almost exactly the same.

One nice thing about the P72, is you can use the VTEC switch to control the secondary butterfly on our 2 stage manifolds. Also, I don't know if it's been mentioned, but these ECU's want a 4 wire O2 sensor and a speed sensor. I am in the process of converting to the 4 wire for my B20A and it's not too hard.

Gregg

maka_RTH
09-23-2004, 11:47 PM
the speed sensor is pin B18 on our ecu's. just looked it up in the pinout. does anybody know if the p72 will throw a code if the vtec stuff isn't hooked up? cuz i'm thinking if they're the same price as the p75, and come with a built in capability of a knock sensor, i might run that one.

Justin86
09-24-2004, 08:51 AM
not sure if this has been linked yet but here is the pinouts for our PJ0
http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=11852&highlight=ECU+pinouts

AccordEpicenter
09-25-2004, 12:21 PM
hmm was it turboedit or uberdata that lets you use a 3 bar map sensor on the obd 0 or 1 computer? I know one of em should do that...

guaynabo89
09-25-2004, 05:45 PM
Well the pinouts between the P72 and P75 I think would be the same, just one has the VTEC.
here is my stuff 94 accord dizzy, P06 ECU, OBD-1 harness, OBD-0 plugs
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/469581_140_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/469581_141_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/469581_142_full.jpg



You try mounting the distributor to the a20 yet?

4sillypwr
09-25-2004, 06:06 PM
88-91 civic/crx electronics are NOT the same generation as the 84-87lude/86-89accord. you'll have to trust me. i've done the obd-0 to obd-1 swap and the mpfi swap on a crx. i'm not trying to show anyone up just pointing that out. i dont want you do guys to buy a conversion harness and get screwed. if you do want to buy a harness i know that the ecu that runs the 86-87 crx si will run an a20. it's been done. i do beleive hasport does, or used to offer a conversion harness for a 86-87 rex to run the b16. would be a good starting point.

man if i go through all this wiring and shit i'm just bustin out the welder and throwin in a b18b or something. at least then i can get wicked sweet clutches that actually hold power. who needs place racing anyway? hehe.


-david

Justin86
09-26-2004, 09:48 AM
I have put it in place on an extra head, but haven't had time to make it bolt in yet.

A B swap is still expensive to do even if you make the stuff your self, and still you have no torque like the A20 makes.

4sillypwr
09-26-2004, 12:45 PM
um no offense but in stock form the b18a makes 140hp 121tq compared to the 110hp 115tq that my a20a3 makes. plus i have the option of a good clutch, lsd, cams, etc... a typical boosted b18a on stock internals will make between 200-250hp 185-235 tq. nothing to sneeze at. i can buy a complete running DA teg with a shit body for around 1k.

-david

carotman
09-27-2004, 01:37 PM
The VSS wiring could be problematic.... I found some threads on Honda-Tech tough.

Here is what I found
http://www.classictiger.com/HondaCRX/VSS/honda_vss_engineering_analysis.htm

I don't know if the OBD-1 VSS would be more compatible than this but that conversion seems to do the job for sure.

Gregg86DX
09-27-2004, 02:07 PM
The VSS wiring could be problematic.... I found some threads on Honda-Tech tough.

Here is what I found
http://www.classictiger.com/HondaCRX/VSS/honda_vss_engineering_analysis.htm

I don't know if the OBD-1 VSS would be more compatible than this but that conversion seems to do the job for sure.

That's an interesting read, those guys know their electronics a hell of a lot better than I and they seem to have sorted it out. I actually did some testing on my VSS signal this weekend and it appears the same as yours, Carot, i.e. pulsing 0-5 volts. So I just moved the ECU B16 wire to the B18 position and my CEL went away.

After reading that article, I am wondering what the difference between the 88-89 PK2 and 90-91 PK2 might be. The 88-89 Preludes used a speed sensor mounted in the speedo, like ours, while the 90-91 Preludes had it mounted on the tranny and did not use a speedo cable. The 90-91 Preludes also used a PK3 (for the B21) which is an OBD1 ECU. I bet the 90-91 PK2 and PK3 use that new style VSS and the 88-89 use the old style. This would explain why some of the Prelude guys can just use a OBD0-OBD1 conversion harness and plug in a P75/PR4 OBD1 ECU and have it work fine.

I know my PK2 is from an 89, which would explain why it works fine with my VSS. This may also explain why Openloop had problems with their PK2, if they were using a 90-91 version.

In any case, it looks to be fairly straightforward to make our VSS compatible with OBD1, which is good!

Gregg

guaynabo89
09-27-2004, 02:32 PM
The VSS wiring could be problematic.... I found some threads on Honda-Tech tough.

Here is what I found
http://www.classictiger.com/HondaCRX/VSS/honda_vss_engineering_analysis.htm

I don't know if the OBD-1 VSS would be more compatible than this but that conversion seems to do the job for sure.


QUestion is will the same 6k pull up resistor work on the Accord vss signal or would we need a different value?

carotman
09-27-2004, 03:50 PM
Same 6k resistor

I did alot of research on that OBD-1 conversion and the VSS is the only thing that needs to be modified on most cars. Of course, you still need to add wires for the O2 Heater , the crank sensor and stuff like that... It's nothing big so far.

Gregg, I'm glad you finally swapped the pins. It works like a charm after this.

guaynabo89
09-27-2004, 03:55 PM
I need to read up on this cause Im just recently thinking about doing this on the a20 to improve its tunablty and responsiveness to mods.
The only thing that I see as the most dificult is finding a obd-1 distributor to fit or make fit on the a20 head.

Hey carot... You happen to know if any of the obd-1 cars came non vtec with a knock sensor?

maka_RTH
09-27-2004, 04:47 PM
from what i've seen, the only cars that came with a knock sensor were vtec. i don't know that i've looked at every ecu, but i know i've seen the most common ones(i was looking for the same thing, which is why i wonder if we could rig a vtec ecu without using vtec...)

guaynabo89
09-27-2004, 04:50 PM
from what i've seen, the only cars that came with a knock sensor were vtec. i don't know that i've looked at every ecu, but i know i've seen the most common ones(i was looking for the same thing, which is why i wonder if we could rig a vtec ecu without using vtec...)

I wonder the same thing but would it throw a code withut being able to activate the vtec is the question. If not than I would definalty try a vtec ecu for converting the Accord just for the knock sensor.


Hey were you bidding on a p75 ecu last night that the seller took off?

maka_RTH
09-27-2004, 04:53 PM
yah, that was me. it kinda pissed me off, it was gonna be cheap, so he took it off. were you the otehr guy that had bid?

guaynabo89
09-27-2004, 04:54 PM
Yeha I found it right before it ended and bid. I guess the guy didnt want to let it go for so cheap. lol

carotman
09-27-2004, 05:39 PM
The H23A came with a knock sensor. The P13 and P14 ECU will have the knock board inside them. That knock board can be transfered to any Civic/Integra ECU to make it work I guess.

Getting a P14 and P06 ECU shouldn't be that expensive... the P72 is really expensive.

The guys on PGM-FI.org said that the knock detection in Honda ECUs wasn't so great..

guaynabo89
09-27-2004, 05:42 PM
The guys on PGM-FI.org said that the knock detection in Honda ECUs wasn't so great..


Yeah Ive been reading up on that over there. They also say it malfunctions with forged internals and is of no use for boost. Which is y I wanted it in the first place so I guess no need for it now.

Just a obd-1 ecu and a dist that will fit.

Now the question is which ecu will be best suited for the a20?

Robs89LXi
09-27-2004, 06:40 PM
Darryl (from Openloop Motorsports) ended up with the F-22 distrubutor as about the only one that would fit. Even then, it still needed a bit of modification in the form of a small bracket. I emailed the guys at Distributor King and gave them a pic of our distributor for a match, and they came back with the same thing; the F-22. Seems like this is the best match (fitment wise) there is. They are two types; TEC-TD31U (internal coil, 90-91 Accord) and TEC-TD52U (external coil, 92-93 Accord).

guaynabo89
09-27-2004, 06:54 PM
What exactly did you ask these people? You sent them a pic of the a20 dist?

Robs89LXi
09-27-2004, 07:03 PM
Yeah, I sent them pics and measurements of my dizzy, and asked them for their opinion on what would be the closest match in a Honda obd-1 distributor.

guaynabo89
09-27-2004, 07:05 PM
I thought the 4th gen Accords were still obd-0? or maybe just from 92 and on are obd-1. I've got to look at my 4th gen to find out.

carotman
09-28-2004, 08:46 PM
The speed sensor modification might be problematic for the cruise control. We may need to use a diode not to interfere with the cruise signal. I'm at work not so I'll check the wiring diagram tomorrow and see if it is actually a problem.

guaynabo89, the Accord were OBD-1 since 1990. I suggest everyone to use a 92-93 external coil distributor since the A20A already has the coil mounted externaly. this inveoles less wiring and reliability issues

maka_RTH
09-28-2004, 10:20 PM
why would we need to modify the speed sensor if we already have one? don't we just need to hook up our speed sensor wire to the p75(or whatever ecu we choose) pin for it's speed sensor? or are they different..?

Robs89LXi
09-28-2004, 10:41 PM
I would not think so. You should be able to just use the P-75 pins like you say.

maka_RTH
09-29-2004, 12:49 AM
Here is a link to some more pin-out lists:

http://www.g2ic.com/tegtips/engine/15.html

There is a link on there to a spreadsheet with several ECU's, including the P72 and PR4. The PR4 should be the same as a P75 (they are both OBD1 LS Integra ECU's). If you compare the P72 and PR4, you can see they are almost exactly the same.

i added in our ECU pinout for easier comparison of what's already there and what would need to be added. i used the pinout for the '89 ecu.
http://www.maka-rth.com/ECU%20pinouts/ECU_Pin_Outs plus PJ0.xls

Robs89LXi
09-29-2004, 01:49 AM
Nice. Why is the P-75 pinout so elusive? I cannot find it anywhere. By the way, Greg, you working nights or what?

Justin86
09-29-2004, 07:48 AM
Nice. Why is the P-75 pinout so elusive? I cannot find it anywhere. By the way, Greg, you working nights or what?
Well most of the OBD-1 ECU's are pretty mush similar unlike the OBD-0's. AS far as I have seen the P-75, P-72, P06 are all the same just for the VTEC stuff.

Mike's89AccordLX
09-29-2004, 09:05 AM
For those of you that don't know what OBD years are here they are.

OBD 1 = All Vehicles from 1990-1996

OBD 2 = All Vehicles from 1996-Present Year

Vinny
09-29-2004, 09:28 AM
Well most of the OBD-1 ECU's are pretty mush similar unlike the OBD-0's. AS far as I have seen the P-75, P-72, P06 are all the same just for the VTEC stuff.


Correct. Most of the pinouts are the same. As a general reference dfor OBD1 ECU's

A1-INJ1 INJ1
A2-INJ4 INJ4
A3-INJ2 INJ2
A4-VTS VTEC solenoid
A5-INJ3 INJ3
A6-PO2SHTC O2 sensor (heating element)
A7-FLR1 fuel pump
A8-empty
A9-IACV IAC valve
A10-empty
A11-empty
A12-FANC engine coolant temp switch
A13-MIL MIL (check engine light)
A14-empty
A15-ACC (a/c compressor clutch)
A16-ALT C alternator
A17-IAB IAB Solenoid
A18-empty
A19-**
A20-PCS EVAP purge control solenoid
A21-ICM ICM
A22- *per Sander* Ignitor
A23-PG1 ground
A24-PG2 ground
A25-IGP2 to main relay and to gound for o
A26-LG1 gound
B1-IGP2 to pin A25
B2-LG2 ground to shields for CYP & TDC
B3-**
B4-**
B5-ACS a/c switch
B6-empty
B7-**
B8-PSPSW PSP switch
B9-STARTER SIGNAL starter signal
B10-VSS vehicle speed sensor
B11-CYP P CYP -P
B12-CYP M CYP -M
B13-TDC P TDC -P
B14-TDC M TDC -M
B15-CKP P CKP -P
B16-CKP M CKP -M
D1-VBU Back Up Power
D2-BKSW brake switch
D3-KS Knock Sensor
D4-SCS service check connector
D5-empty
D6-VTM VTEC pressure switch
D7-TXD/RXD (data link connector)
D8-empty
D9-ALT F alternator
D10-ELD electric load detector
D11-TPS TPS Signal
D12-**
D13-ECT ECT sensor
D14-PHO2S O2 sensor
D15-IAT IAT sensor
D16-VREF VREF
D17-MAP Map Signal
D18-**
C19-VCC1 MAP 5V
C20-VCC2 TPS 5V
C21-SG1 MAP GND
C22-SG2 TPS GND

http://tech.hybridgarage.com/tech/info_files/eg-pin.gif


http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNDQ4MDExNnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

My contribution to the thread. Some people dont feel like following links and stuff and dont want to have to PM people for info so I'll post some here.

Enjoy

NXRacer
09-29-2004, 09:57 AM
good stuff vin. i think we've hit on something really good here. Maybe it should be moved to project central as a sticky???

guaynabo89
09-29-2004, 10:01 AM
good stuff vin. i think we've hit on something really good here. ??

It definately is.


One things for certain. I'm going to dyno my car before and after attemting the obd-1 conversion to see if there is any whp diff, and compare the hp and tq graphs to see if there was any improvements across the rpm band between the two setups.

WHich I think there should be nothing but improvements compared to the accord fi setup.

smufguy
09-29-2004, 11:01 AM
That is awsome fellas. You guys are fucking crazy. hehe, seems like openloop had made a great way for u guys to explore new territories. Now you guys can say, Who said my ecu dont control ignition?? :)

Vinny
09-29-2004, 11:27 AM
Someone mentioned knock sensors earlier. On the back side of the block theres a plug/Bolt just to the right and up from the oil filter housing. I'll try and posy a pic of the location later to show everyone. I'm not sure if it goes into a waterjacket or what but I'll find out when I pull it off, if I can get it off. Connect to D3 of the ECU harness plug and tadaaa :D

NXRacer
09-29-2004, 11:49 AM
wouldnt you want to tap a hole higher up on the block that at the oil filter housing?? I'd want it as close to where the knock would be coming from i imagine. . . . .

86LXItooFAST4me
09-29-2004, 11:53 AM
hey i was looking for some wiring fiagrams for this AFC i got from Sheph and came accross this: http://www.apexi-usa.com/productdocumentation/electronics_safc_wire.pdf

it was a bunch wiring diagrams for a few diff vehicals. i wasnt sure if it would help or not.

Vinny
09-29-2004, 12:01 PM
Just up from the filter housing is about as High as you get, for the most part. A few inches higher and your in the head

carotman
09-29-2004, 01:02 PM
Once this thread goes too big, we'll have to gather all the information on a same page.

Regarding the speed sensor, the OBD-1 ECU is looking for a 12V quare Wave while the OBD-0 is looking for a ground...

Anyway, I posted the link for the modification needed. I just didn't have time to look into the cruise control thing.

NXRacer
09-29-2004, 01:06 PM
is the speed sensor only for the cruise control? cause i bet most poeple who are gonna be using this will have jerked out the CC a long time ago.

Vinny
09-29-2004, 01:10 PM
I believe, and someone will correct me if I am wrong, that the speedo's on the 4th gens and up were electronic rather than cable driven. I think the sensor off the 4th gen tranny's only have a plug and no cable. Or so I have been told

carotman
09-29-2004, 04:31 PM
The speed sensor is used by the ECU for a number of things... you cannot avoid using it...

A20A1
09-29-2004, 04:44 PM
How would we convert to an electronic sensor... I don't want to use the cable, not do i want to use a cable driven speedo.

carotman
09-29-2004, 04:51 PM
well, we already have a cable speedo..... :D

The only way to change to a electronic sensor is to mount another speedo in the gauge cluster

A20A1
09-29-2004, 04:57 PM
I Know, but I have no cable or speedo... but I neeed the sensor to run an autometer speedo or the like.

do I need to get the weel hub or what not from a car that does have a sensor?

maka_RTH
09-29-2004, 05:00 PM
has anybody looked into mounting another speedo in the gauge cluster? like maybe from a 4g?

and Robs89LXi, i'm just always up late. i usually go to bed around 2 or 3 am(i'm an hour behind you). although i might start working a graveyard shift soon...

Gregg86DX
09-29-2004, 05:37 PM
The speed sensor from a 90-91 Prelude might work. It mounts on the tranny and would replace the cable drive unit so you would need to use a compatible electonic speedo. I am still trying to find one at a U-Pull-It junk yard since the regular junk yards around here want $75 for it.

Gregg

Gregg86DX
10-11-2004, 10:14 PM
Just a quick teaser update, I got my car running tonight on a P75 ECU. Keep in mind, this is with a B20A, so I did not have to solve the distributor problem. I am not totally done with the wiring yet, I still need to wire up the 4 wire O2 sensor heater and the VSS, plus, I think the P75 I have is from an automatic, so I need to do some mods to avoid a CEL.

I built the conversion harness myself and it fired right up the first time. I am getting a CEL, but that's certainly caused by one of the unfinished things I mentioned above. Tomorrow I'll spend some time getting the wiring finished.

The idle was fluctuating and my A/F guage was showing lean, so I still have work to do, but a quick drive seemed to indicate a substantial improvement from about 4000rpm up. Enough to make me go wow! How's that for a teaser Carotman? Get yours installed!

Anyway, once it's all done, I'll put together a chart showing how I wired the conversion harness. It's about 95% the same as the other conversions, but I found a few minor differences.

Gregg

carotman
10-12-2004, 05:00 AM
The speed sensor should easily be solved by the resistance wiring I showed earlier in the thread.

For the O2 heater, you can disable it in the ECU program and use a single wire sensor if you want.

4sillypwr
10-12-2004, 05:23 AM
Good work Gregg. I'm picking up a DA teg donor car for my B swap in a week or two. Then all the fun starts. Glad to see the great progress.

MoonScryer
10-12-2004, 08:08 AM
Speedometer: You use the bottom half from a A20 tranny, and the tops half with the electronic sender to make this part work. You do have to trim a bit here and there, but this should fit together.

Now, on the other hand, if you want to get VSS happy, I'm not sure how it was done, but Sean used the cruise control to make the VSS work on his ECU setups. Just thought I would share that.

carotman
10-12-2004, 06:39 PM
Again, I prefer to ass a single wire and resistor instead of swapping gauge clusters and VSS.

It's all explained here
http://www.classictiger.com/HondaCRX/VSS/honda_vss_engineering_analysis.htm

'A20A3'
11-18-2004, 10:38 AM
Okay, I still am very confused with this thing so please clarify for me.

What I need to buy to make this work:

Conversion harness - $100
TEC-TD52U(92-93 Accord:F22A6 - external coil) - $??
P75 ECU - $??

Is that all I need? How does the conversion harness work? Do I just plug it into my wiring harness in one end, and the P75 in the other? I can handle mounting the distributor on my own, won't be very difficult for me.

Can I use the coil from my A20 distributor on the 4G distributor?

I have more questions but I'm overwhelmed right now so when they come to me later I'll post them.

I HATE WIRING!

NXRacer
11-18-2004, 11:06 AM
Okay, I still am very confused with this thing so please clarify for me.

What I need to buy to make this work:

Conversion harness - $100
TEC-TD52U(92-93 Accord:F22A6 - external coil) - $??
P75 ECU - $??

Is that all I need? How does the conversion harness work? Do I just plug it into my wiring harness in one end, and the P75 in the other? I can handle mounting the distributor on my own, won't be very difficult for me.

Can I use the coil from my A20 distributor on the 4G distributor?


With the Dizzy, it depends on if you get it brand new or from a junkyard. Same story with the ECU.

The wiring harness is still an issue thats being worked out. Nobody is sure whether or not the conversion harness will plug and play or not. Some people say yes, others say no, but its close.

You can use the coil from the a20 dizzy, but i suggest you upgrade. Not necessary, but a good idea.

remember, nobody but mike from openloop has done this conversion yet so there are still kinks to be worked out. At least one conversion should be completed soon here so when its done this thread will DEFFINATELY be updated with new info.

'A20A3'
11-18-2004, 11:31 AM
I've been to a few junkyards around here, and no Cb7's.

However getting one shouldn't be a problem. I have resources.

As for the ECU I'll figure something out.

I think I'll just buy the conversion harness, and just re-pin what I have to to make it work with out throwing codes.

The conversion harness does just plug in, it's just that some things have to be re-pined?

Is there any way to safely bypass the 4 O2 sensors without throwing a code?

Otherwise how do I get that to work right?

NXRacer
11-18-2004, 11:45 AM
with uberdata or hondata you can program exactly what you'll be running as far as O2 sensors. You can even run a wideband O2 if you feel like it.

As far as the conversion harness, worste case scenario is that you'll have to splice the accord plug to the harness which shouldnt be too hard.

The ECU you should be able to pickup easily. They're out of the 92-93 civic EX i believe.

'A20A3'
11-18-2004, 11:50 AM
I thought the P06 was from the Civic, and the P75 was from the Integra LS(non-vtec)?

NXRacer
11-18-2004, 11:54 AM
yeah you're right.

from hondata site:
P75 OBDI US 95 Integra LS/GS

P06 OBDI US 92-95 Civic DX

'A20A3'
11-18-2004, 11:58 AM
Okay cool.

It would be awesome if Justanothermike posted some stuff up about this...

Justin86
11-19-2004, 10:51 AM
I guess Cartmon was going to post some stuff........?

Justin86
12-21-2004, 10:18 PM
well not getting much help with the swap as of pinouts so here is what I got so far. The ones with question marks I'm not sure if they need to be used, wires added etc, everything else I'm pretty sure on........... be nice if it stayed in Excel formant, well first is OBD-1 pins then name, wire color, 86-87 pins, and last 88-89 pins.
obd-1 OBD-0
Connector "A" 86-87 88-89
Pin Unit Wire Color
A1 Injector #1 BRN INJ1 A1 A1
A2 Injector #4 YEL INJ4 A7 A7
A3 Injector #2 RED INJ2 A3 A3
A4 VTEC solenoid GRN/YEL VTS
A5 Injector #3 BLU INJ3 A5 A5
A6 O2 sensor (heating element) ORN/BLK PO2SHTC ? ?
A7 fuel pump GRN/BLU FLR1 A12 A12
A8 (empty)
A9 IAC valve BLK/BLU IACV A11 A11
A10 (empty)
A11 (empty)
A12 engine coolant temp switch GRN FANC ? ?
A13 MIL (check engine light) GRN/ORN MIL B6 B6
A14 (empty)
A15 (a/c compressor clutch) BLK/RED ACC
A16 alternator WHT/GRN ALT C ? ?
A17 IAB Solenoid PNK/BLU IAB ? A14
A18 (empty)
A19 (a/t trans only) YEL (AUTO ONLY)
A20 EVAP purge control solenoid RED PCS ? B2
A21 ICM YEL/GRN ICM ? ?
A22 (empty)
A23 ground BLK PG1 A2 A2
A24 ground BLK PG2 A4 A4
A25 to main relay and to gound for o YEL/BLK IGP2 A13 A13
A26 gound BRN/BLK LG1 A18 A18
Connector "B"
Pin Unit Wire Color
B1 to pin A25 YEL/BLK IGP2 A15 A15
B2 ground to shields for CYP & TDC BRN/BLK LG2 A16 A16
B3 (a/t trans only)
B4 (a/t trans only)
B5 a/c switch BLU/RED ACS B8 B8
B6 (empty)
B7 (a/t trans only)park/neutral B7 B7
B8 PSP switch GRN PSPSW B9 B9
B9 starter signal BLU/WHT STARTER SIGNAL B13 B13
B10 vehicle speed sensor ORN VSS B18 B18
B11 CYP -P ORN CYP P C1 C1
B12 CYP -M WHT CYP M C2 C2
B13 TDC -P ORN/BLU TDC P C3 C3
B14 TDC -M WHT/BLU TDC M C4 C4
B15 CKP -P BLU/GRN CKP P ADD ADD
B16 CKP -M BLU/YEL CKP M ADD ADD
Connector "D"
Pin Unit Wire Color
D1 Back Up Power WHT/BLU VBU A17 A17
D2 brake switch GRN/WHT BKSW ? ?
D3 Knock Sensor KS ? ?
D4 service check connector BRN/WHT SCS ? ?
D5 (empty)
D6 VTEC pressure switch BLU/BLK VTM ? ?
D7 (data link connector) LT BLU TXD/RXD ? ?
D8 (empty)
D9 alternator WHT/RED ALT F B14 B14
D10 electric load detector GRN/RED ELD ? ?
D11 TPS Signal RED/BLK TPS C7 C7
D12 EGR YEL/GRN EGR A10 A10
D13 ECT sensor RED/WHT ECT C6 C6
D14 O2 sensor WHT/RED PHO2S C16 C16
D15 IAT sensor RED/YEL IAT C5 C5
D16 VREF WHT/BLK VREF ? ?
D17 Map Signal WHT/YEL MAP C11 C11
D18 (a/t trans only) control module
D19 MAP 5V YEL/WHT VCC1 C15 C15
D20 TPS 5V YEL/BLU VCC2 C13 C13
D21 MAP GND GRN/WHT SG1 C14 C14
D22 TPS GND GRN/BLU SG2 C12 C12

smufguy
12-21-2004, 10:55 PM
awsome work justin. THe only thing i can criticize about is that, it would be helpful if its in a table form. U know like a spread sheet with a title of the column and what not. put in on an excel and get a screen capture and it would be perfect. but again, awsome work tho.

ps: did'nt carotman already do a writeup like this???

carotman
12-21-2004, 11:17 PM
Well, I did check the 89 pinout when I swapped to the PK2 ECU on my car. I do know that it's 100% accurate. Justin sent me the corrections for the 86-87 ECUs so I can correct the post I did in the FAQ section.

I will do the correction tomorrow. It's not an excel table but a basic HTML table with some basic colors.

The FAQ can be found here http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=11852

The ECU pin swapping is not a big concern. The major concern IMO is the distributor itself. I was going to fit a F22A distributor on my olde A20A1 thin winter but it snowed way too much here and the engine is packed undet a protective tarpaulin in my trailer... I will need some help from my friends to take it out of there and put it in the garage.

Once we solved the distributor problem, the ECU pins should be easy. Of course, having an accurate pinout reference helps alot.

Thanks Justin for posting that. I replied to your PM, I'm not sure if you acutally got it.


Edit:

I double checked and it seems that Honda would have inverted the CYL and TDC sensor pinout between 86-87 and 88-89. This seems quite odd. Could someone check what are the wire colors on the ECU for those pins? (C1, C2, C3 and C4) The sensors had the same color code from 86 to 89. I just don't want to get stuff mixed up here.

guaynabo89
12-22-2004, 06:53 AM
Well, I did check the 89 pinout when I swapped to the PK2 ECU on my car. I do know that it's 100% accurate. Justin sent me the corrections for the 86-87 ECUs so I can correct the post I did in the FAQ section.

I will do the correction tomorrow. It's not an excel table but a basic HTML table with some basic colors.

The FAQ can be found here http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=11852

The ECU pin swapping is not a big concern. The major concern IMO is the distributor itself. I was going to fit a F22A distributor on my olde A20A1 thin winter but it snowed way too much here and the engine is packed undet a protective tarpaulin in my trailer... I will need some help from my friends to take it out of there and put it in the garage.

Once we solved the distributor problem, the ECU pins should be easy. Of course, having an accurate pinout reference helps alot.

Thanks Justin for posting that. I replied to your PM, I'm not sure if you acutally got it.


Edit:

I double checked and it seems that Honda would have inverted the CYL and TDC sensor pinout between 86-87 and 88-89. This seems quite odd. Could someone check what are the wire colors on the ECU for those pins? (C1, C2, C3 and C4) The sensors had the same color code from 86 to 89. I just don't want to get stuff mixed up here.

cylp - c1 orange
cylm - c2 white

tdcp - c3 orange/blue
tdcm - c4 white/blue

This is for the 87 lxi.

I bought a obd0 - obd1 conversion harness and did have to switch the wiring around because these two sensors were switched on the obd0 accord side.

I plan on running the wires in the next week or two for the o2 and the distributor and such.

I already had the dist modded to fit the a20 head so all I need is time to finish this project.

I'm using a 94-95 ls ecu. I like that cause it simplifies al the vacuum connections and doesnt use a egr valve on the manual transmission models.

In a couple of weeks I'll update to the problems I ran into etc.

Justin86
12-22-2004, 08:29 AM
well I wrote it out in excel, but when I pasted it went back to the regular word format. I could email you the excel file if you could post it in a colum format.........
Carotman the cyl and TDC I sent you are the same as in 88-89, i looked at my car and in the 86 honda repair manual.
So we have the dizzy wiring but on the enternal coil dizzy there is one extra one that needs to be figured out. There is the wire harness but I'm sure that there needs to be pins swaped and pins added. So I'm trying to figure that out before I buy the $100 harness......

carotman
12-22-2004, 02:45 PM
The pins for the external and internal coil dizzy are the same. The difference is that the A20A doesn't use an igniter that is controlled by the ECU directly (vacuum controlled)

Justin86
12-22-2004, 09:27 PM
yea I know ECU wise they are the same, but the external coil dizzy have one more wire then the internal and I don't know where it goes?

smufguy
12-23-2004, 07:01 AM
Thanks to Justin for sending me the file and here is the Excel spreadsheet view of what he posted earlier. Its much easier to understand

http://img52.exs.cx/img52/3781/a8qh.jpg


well I wrote it out in excel, but when I pasted it went back to the regular word format. I could email you the excel file if you could post it in a colum format.........

well email away at [email protected] I will post it in column format, Its gonna be just a regular picture, but easy enough to read ;)

guaynabo89
12-23-2004, 07:00 PM
yea I know ECU wise they are the same, but the external coil dizzy have one more wire then the internal and I don't know where it goes?


coil negative

Justin86
12-24-2004, 09:07 AM
yea i figured it had something to do with the coil, but I couldn't find anything about it.
Like I said before the stuff with ? are pins that I couldn't figure out, if they are needed or not, or require a wire to be added to make them work............

carotman
12-24-2004, 10:16 AM
Just get an external coil dizzy anyway. They are more reliable than the internal ones. Besides, you can upgrade later to a better coil without having to change to an aftermarket distributor cap

Justin86
12-24-2004, 10:07 PM
yea that is what I have right now off an F22a4

hondamanlxi
12-24-2004, 10:33 PM
not much help but....

the dist that comes in the 3rd/4th gen ludes(b20a5/f22) are external coil( i snagged a brand new one after an h22 swap ;) ) i do not think the 3d gen is obd1 though

carotman
12-25-2004, 09:04 PM
The 3rd gen Prelude uses a a distributor that is the same as the OBD-1 internals even if the 2.0SI engine is OBD-0. The B21A is OBD-1 and uses the same distributor. The Accord B20A also uses the same type of distributor.

Justin86
12-26-2004, 09:47 AM
so then your wiring diagram carotman is for the external coils.....

carotman
12-26-2004, 11:41 AM
Yes and No

The only difference is that the Igniter is inside the distributor for most cars (even with external dizzy). Just route the igniter wire to the dizzy and that's it. Same thing for the 2 coil wires.

Civvy
01-05-2005, 07:11 AM
In the U.K. we dont have o2 sensors and we dont have a cat, do i need to get a manifold from u guys to convert to 0bd1?
Do i need to get a p75 from a integra ls or will a 90+ lude (b21) suffice??

AccordEpicenter
02-15-2005, 11:24 PM
you could probably make the car run without a o2 sensor but the ecu will throw codes. What im trying to find out is if the obd1 accord distributor works with the P06 ecu... I might actually try this soon, i need better tuning and engine control

Justin86
02-18-2005, 08:59 AM
Well I haven't tried to wire this up but making the 4g dizzy fit is a little harder then what people think. In order for it to clear everything you have to bend the water pipe in the head down and away a little bit. On the thermostat side one of the dizzy legs has to be cut off and ground all the way throught. Which then leaves a nice hole in it behind one of the sensors, which has to be sealed somehow.

AccordEpicenter
02-18-2005, 10:23 AM
well i have a P06 ecu coming... so looks like im gonna try this after all. Yeah i see what you mean about the dizzy... Im wondering if we can swap obd1 internals into the obd-0 accord dizzy, have you guys tried that?

guaynabo89
02-18-2005, 10:28 AM
Well I haven't tried to wire this up but making the 4g dizzy fit is a little harder then what people think. In order for it to clear everything you have to bend the water pipe in the head down and away a little bit. On the thermostat side one of the dizzy legs has to be cut off and ground all the way throught. Which then leaves a nice hole in it behind one of the sensors, which has to be sealed somehow.

Correct on the mounting situation, except you dont have to bend the water pipe if your willing to spend a couple of dollars.

I have yet to post but I have switched over to and 0bd1 ecu using the 93 Accord distributor and so far have only gotten a speed sensor cel.

What I did to make the dist fit the way I wanted is I keyed the distributors two pronged piece that lines up with the back of the camshaft, and then cut and rewelded the three tabs so that it bolts up like normal.

I had to pay someone for the welding and fitting of the distributor to the head 80 dollars though. Worth it In my opinion.

NXRacer
02-18-2005, 10:29 AM
i dont think that would work because the obd0 is vacuum advance and the obd1 is electronic. you might be able to jerry rig the whole deal, which wouldnt be a good idea. i heard that the EF civic dizzy's might work. We should talk to openloop and see if they had that much of a problem. Maybe there are diff versions of the accord dizzy's.

AccordEpicenter
02-18-2005, 10:35 AM
from what i know, obd-1 dizzys are obd-1 dizzys, you can use a variety of them. What are you using for an ecu guaynabo89?

guaynabo89
02-18-2005, 10:38 AM
from what i know, obd-1 dizzys are obd-1 dizzys, you can use a variety of them. What are you using for an ecu guaynabo89?


95 manual ls teg

AccordEpicenter
02-18-2005, 10:45 AM
so its a p74/p75 ecu?

guaynabo89
02-18-2005, 10:45 AM
so its a p74/p75 ecu?
p75

runs rich

AccordEpicenter
02-18-2005, 10:50 AM
are you going to chip it and uberdata tune it?

guaynabo89
02-18-2005, 10:57 AM
are you going to chip it and uberdata tune it?


probably not.

Hrere are some pics of the distributor

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid158/p8a0b3dac16702790cd03df45d9c80550/f515bd43.jpg


http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid158/p40bb2be608156b4dc00d9518a56926ec/f515bd47.jpg


http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid158/p79c204b8c4e44a07f7741231fdbc8507/f515bd4e.jpg


http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid158/p3af75fd37fa0b955ae18350f3aea32bb/f515bd51.jpg

AccordEpicenter
02-18-2005, 12:58 PM
looks real nice. Chipping doesnt cost much, like $10-$20 for the parts and socket and just get a rom burner (they vary) but relativley inexpensive for the amount of tunability you get, pretty damn near standalone capabilities. Thats why im trying to upgrade, i need the better timing and fuel control, plus the ability to read 2 and 3 bar map sensors and tune accordingly (you can do this on uberdata, maybe TurboEdit too, but thats obd-0)

Justin86
02-19-2005, 12:27 AM
ok I see so cut the F out of the thermo stat, then have someone relocate the dizzy mounting legs. damn wish I had an aluminum welder. how about some info on the wiring esp the ECU stuff.

AccordEpicenter
02-19-2005, 01:41 AM
JB weld son... it can be done

guaynabo89
02-19-2005, 06:13 AM
ok I see so cut the F out of the thermo stat, then have someone relocate the dizzy mounting legs. damn wish I had an aluminum welder. how about some info on the wiring esp the ECU stuff.

Well I have the genuine Honda manual for my car and I downloaded a acura manual of the net for the 95 teg. Thats how I figured most of the wiring. I used a obd0 to obd1 harness off ebay and then used the two manuals to doublr check the connections ath the conversion harness.

I only had to add the wires for the extra dist. sensor and icm. FOr the o2 I used wires that were already there that werent used anymore by the teg ecu like rgr lift sensor.

To give a dretailed instruction on everythiung I did will take forever but as soon as I have some time I sure will post a how to of sorts on what I did.

Im still not done wit this conversion as I'm in the process of using a b16 mani on the car so that will simplify connections plus hopefully make it run exactly how it should.

OH and yeah the thermostat housing tab that sits toward the distributor has to be ground down a bit in order t be able to get the distr. to turn. I only had to take off enough to where it almost broke through to where the bolt goes through the housing. Shouldnt see any problems with it though.

Justin86
02-19-2005, 11:37 PM
yea I have the manual for the accord, but I haven't been able to get a complete pin out for any OBD-1 ECU. So you didn't have to swap any pins on the harness, from what I was seeing there was a couple that needed to be relocated.

Oldblueaccord
02-20-2005, 01:07 AM
yea I have the manual for the accord, but I haven't been able to get a complete pin out for any OBD-1 ECU. So you didn't have to swap any pins on the harness, from what I was seeing there was a couple that needed to be relocated.


http://locashracing.com/store/index.php?cPath=29&osCsid=bb7352ea8ed75835ccb625c4df6a204b

this guy has alotta harnesses made up might help you guys out.

wp

guaynabo89
02-20-2005, 05:56 AM
yea I have the manual for the accord, but I haven't been able to get a complete pin out for any OBD-1 ECU. So you didn't have to swap any pins on the harness, from what I was seeing there was a couple that needed to be relocated.


Some of the pinouts were different and did need to get changed.

Here are some places that have manual downloads.

http://www.streetlegalkhk.nl/multimedia.php?dir=computer/


http://www.integra.orcon.net.nz/manuals

A20A1
02-20-2005, 10:31 AM
In order for it to clear everything you have to bend the water pipe in the head down and away a little bit.



For the water pipe I have mine capped off with a rubber plug, so I migh just find a way to remove the pipe a plug the hole

Justin86
02-20-2005, 05:29 PM
well adding the wires shouldn't be tought. If you can post up what pins to swap and wires you added to where on the ECU it would make life much easier on the rest of us.

RobT5580
02-20-2005, 05:51 PM
If you still need pinouts go to www.aempower.com and go in the forums and under the first honda section go into notes on the 30-1000 or the 30-1040 ecu and they have the pinouts there. I had a link but i lost it when my hard drive crashed a few months ago. Its relatively easy well it was with the boomslang harness.

AccordEpicenter
02-20-2005, 05:52 PM
apexi also has some pinouts in the VAFC install manuals...

guaynabo89
02-21-2005, 06:35 PM
well adding the wires shouldn't be tought. If you can post up what pins to swap and wires you added to where on the ECU it would make life much easier on the rest of us.


Will defintately try when I have time.

Justin86
03-03-2005, 07:30 PM
well any news yet and I can't get those manuals to work from those site or load up at all.

guaynabo89
03-04-2005, 11:36 AM
well any news yet and I can't get those manuals to work from those site or load up at all.

its alot of info to write up and right now im just to busy to do a full write up.

Just ask me some questions bout what you need and I'll help you like that.

Justin86
03-04-2005, 01:30 PM
ok then what I have got so far is.........
The conversion harness will work, but on the OBD-0 plugs A6 needs to go to B2 (purge control solenoid), B11 needs to go to C1 (CYP-P), B12 needs to go to C2 (CYP-M). OBD-1 pins (B15)CKY-P & (B16)CKY-M needs to have the wires added for the dizzy and be removed from their OBD-0 pins C1 & C2 to another, and one wire added for the O2 heater. Then you need to add that resistor for the speed sensor. also add a wire for the ignitor to either pin B15 or B17 on the OBD-0 plug or both?

guaynabo89
03-04-2005, 01:48 PM
ok then what I have got so far is.........
The conversion harness will work, but on the OBD-0 plugs A6 needs to go to B2 (purge control solenoid), B11 needs to go to C1 (CYP-P), B12 needs to go to C2 (CYP-M). OBD-1 pins (B15)CKY-P & (B16)CKY-M needs to have the wires added for the dizzy and be removed from their OBD-0 pins C1 & C2 to another, and one wire added for the O2 heater. Then you need to add that resistor for the speed sensor. also add a wire for the ignitor to either pin B15 or B17 on the OBD-0 plug or both?

What yr is your car?

I have the 87 model and the pinouts vary slightlyfrom the 88-89.

Also what ecu are you running?

Justin86
03-04-2005, 01:52 PM
It's a 87 wire harness so it will be the same, and I'm using the civic P06

guaynabo89
03-04-2005, 02:01 PM
I hada list of what pinout differences there was but I need to find it. I'll try and find it soon and I'll let you know.

Yeah the only things that need to be added are the o2htr, icm ang crank sensor.

Then under the hood the dist has two plugs totalling 10 cables. 6 are the sensors, the icm, power, coil neg.(if using a dist with an external coil) and rpm wire.

I'll try and get those pinout differences soon.

Justin86
03-04-2005, 02:06 PM
yea then it sounds like I got most of it, how about how you hooked up the O2 sensor. There is the main one there, heater wire, and ground, and the 4th one I'm not sure on?

guaynabo89
03-04-2005, 02:13 PM
o2 uses lg1 or 2 and igp1 or 2.( basicly power and ground) You can get these off the engine harness itself. I used the leads going to the egr lift sensor I think. The ls teg ecu dont use an egr valve.

Then you have the htr wire an o2 sensor leads that go to the ecu.

AccordEpicenter
03-04-2005, 03:13 PM
if you burn a new chip for your ecu using uberdata, you can change the code to support a 1 wire o2 sensor instead of a 4 wire, and you can turn off closed loop which eliminates the EGR etc

Justin86
03-04-2005, 03:51 PM
well i plan on running a wideband O2, but disabling the EGR I plan on doing.

rjudgey
03-08-2005, 04:39 AM
Do a search under Megasquirt a whole load of custom ECU's that are DIY and cheap, but not for the beginneer good understanding of electronics is usefull. Also theirs a company in U.K Emerald ECU's just brought out a cheaper ECU under £400 that seems good value for those who don't like soldering!! I think the biggest prob for most these systems is getting new sensors in or ones that will work to fit, mainly fiddly than impossible!!

bobafett
03-10-2005, 09:29 PM
http://www.homemadeturbo.com/forum/index.php?topic=31055.0

my contribution to the thread. if you are not a member u should be, its worth signing up...


I have been chipping ECUs on here for a while now pretty successfully (thanks to all my HMT clients!!!) and I have to decided to broaden my horizons a little bit.

Although I will continue to only chip OBD0 ECUs (except for locals, i will do OBD1 as well) for you guys that want it done well and right the 1st time with no mistakes and great service after the sale...I want to offer you the opportunity to learn more and do it yourself at an affordable price. My goal is to broaden your horizons and make it easy for you to learn about DIY engine management.

Besides the products below, I also chip ECUs. See my ECU services page.

I have made two chipping 'kits' thus far:

$21 - OBD0 TurboEdit Chipping Kit


$23 - OBD1 Uberdata/Crome Chipping Kit


These are complete, high quality parts kits and I have tried to make it easy to order using Paypal (or you can always send a MO). Prices already include shipping and if you need a chip burnt and sent with the kit, its only $5 extra and I will donate a portion of the price to the Engine Management System of your choice. (In your name if you want) Smiley

Other donations will be made to PGMFI.org as well for teaching me what I have learned and continuing to make advances in the DIY ECU arena.

PGMFI Chipping Guide for Do-It-Yourselfers

Other products -


RS232 Datalogging Complete Cable
$28.00


RS232 Datalogging Board Kit
$18.00


ZIF Socket
$9.00


Amtel 29c256 Chip
$6.50


(2) - SST 27SF512 Chips
$7.00

OBD0 --> OBD1 Harness

Convert your 1988-1991 civic/crx and 1990-1991 Integra to run any OBD1 1992-1995 ecu. Requirements: All civic/crx models must either be a SI or HF or a MPFI(Multi Point Fuel Injection) converted car. DX and Standard models that are DPFI (Dual Point Fuel Injection) must be converted to MPFI for this conversion to work properly. This conversion is primarily made for 5 speed chassis, but can be constructed for automatic transmissions. You will need an OBD1 ecu, distributor and a 4 wire O2 sensor.

All Harnesses come with detailed instructions for an easy installation. Also included with the harness is a quick disconnect connector that will allow you to feed the sensor wires through the firewall easily. All sensor wires are color coordinated for an easy installation. I will beat any advertised price of the same harness style and construction.

Price: I'll beat any advertised price you can find! - PM ME - Free Shipping to the Continental U.S.

OBD2a-->OBD1 Harness

Convert your 1996-1998 civic, 1996-1999 Integra, 1996-2001 Prelude and 1996-1997 Accord to run any OBD1 1992-1995 ecu. All OBD2 to OBD1 harnesses are manufactured using all brand new OEM pieces only! I will beat any advertised price of the same harness style and construction. Email me if you find it cheaper!

Price: I'll beat any advertised price you can find! - PM ME - Free Shipping to the Continental U.S.

OBD2b to OBD1 Harness

Convert your 1999-2000 Civic, 2000-2001 Integra and 1998-2002 Accord to run any OBD1 1992-1995 ecu. I will beat any advertised price of the same harness style and construction. Email me if you find it cheaper!

Price: I'll beat any advertised price you can find! - PM ME - Free Shipping to the Continental U.S.


Money Orders preferred, paypal accepted, PM me if you have any special requests or need a custom harness.

phrat_boy(at)yahoo.com <---Paypal

Money Orders to:

Chris Harris
313 Cypress Court
Ramsey, NJ 07446

dillirk
03-12-2005, 12:51 AM
Do we need to switch to OBD1 injecters too?

88' Accord Ltd
03-12-2005, 09:01 AM
no you dont have to

deevergote
03-13-2005, 10:43 AM
Man that was a good read!

For guys who want junkyard parts (p75, F22 dizzy) you should check out www.car-part.com . It's a junkyard search engine, and you can find some VERY good prices on there. I just missed a $50 P28 a few months ago! (search for a P28 on ebay... they go for a minimum of $80, some over $150) There's a 92 dizzy on there right now for $25...

dillirk
03-13-2005, 06:28 PM
car-part.com kicks ass. I use it at work to find cheap tempered glass. Its so mutch quicker than calling around.

If we use our injectors do we need to use resistors for them.

AccordEpicenter
03-13-2005, 06:42 PM
If we use our injectors do we need to use resistors for them.

if we re use our injectors... would we magically not need resistors anymore? Peak hold injectors you need resistors across the board. You can use a ecu designed for saturated type injectors with peak hold type injectors, as long as you keep the resistor box

dillirk
03-14-2005, 12:29 AM
I didn't Know we had a resistor box allready. I thought one would need to be added to use our injectors. Thanks for the info. I would have found out the hard way when upgrading to bigger OBD1 injectors and not removing the resistors.

Justin86
03-21-2005, 06:37 PM
ok million dollar question where do I find a 6K pull up resistor, Radio Shack dosn't have any or a clue what a pull up resistor is.............

AccordEpicenter
03-21-2005, 07:41 PM
omg... just get a 6k resistor... the pull up describes what it does, not what it is

Justin86
03-22-2005, 09:11 AM
yea only problem is radio shack didn't have a 6K resistor period.

NXRacer
03-22-2005, 09:44 AM
justin, lemme check my bag of goodies and see if i have one. i have a zillion IC's in a box somewhere. . . .

guaynabo89
03-22-2005, 12:37 PM
omg... just get a 6k resistor... the pull up describes what it does, not what it is

I looked around the web to see if I could find more info and apparently there are pull up and pull down resistors. WHat the difference is I have no idea.
I do know that I need one though cause my car runs fine except for the speed sensor cel.

AccordEpicenter
03-22-2005, 12:40 PM
the pull up describes what it does, not what it is

guaynabo89
03-22-2005, 12:42 PM
apparently there are pull up and pull down resistors. WHat the difference is I have no idea.
.

AccordEpicenter
03-22-2005, 03:18 PM
the only difference is their position in a circuit to pull up or pull down the voltage. Just get a 6k resistor

Justin86
03-22-2005, 06:22 PM
Ok so then does the location of the resistor madder?

AccordEpicenter
03-23-2005, 11:04 AM
it matters were the resistor is in the circuit

Justin86
03-23-2005, 05:52 PM
edit

so I guess it goes somewhere behind the speedo.............. :sad2:

88' Accord Ltd
03-31-2005, 06:28 PM
Which way does the distributor have to sit to run the car properly? I need to let my machinist know so we can finish up this work. The way openloop had theirs and the way guayanbo89 has his are different.. Anyone know whats up? :dunno:

Justin86
04-02-2005, 10:56 AM
ok the way guayanbo89 has it is the best way to set it up it has the most clearence around the water pipe. But the way he has requires you to redrill the dizzy key.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/1/web/469000-469999/469581_211_full.jpg
In my pic I drilled it 40 deg from the stock and all you need is 20 deg I found earlier. If that isn't an option if you can rotate the dizzy towards the thermostat (advancing it) then wedling the legs in the correct position.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/1/web/469000-469999/469581_208_full.jpg

what I did is found where the sensors line up at TDC #1 in the dizzy then went from there. Here is a pic of it at TDC #1
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/1/web/469000-469999/469581_209_full.jpg
By looking at the very bottom sensor in the dizzy (TDC) you will see were it lines up.
Here's a pic of the key at TDC, also note it needs to be rotated 180deg to be in the right spot and that is with it out being redrilled.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/1/web/469000-469999/469581_210_full.jpg

I'll have a full detailed write up once I get this wiring bug figured out.

Robs89LXi
05-09-2005, 11:18 PM
Has anyone gotten any further on this project yet?

guaynabo89
05-10-2005, 01:28 PM
Has anyone gotten any further on this project yet?


As far as what?

My hatch is obd1 and running fine (except a little idle problem but I think thats the iac valve) with only a speed sensor cel and thats only because I havent found a 6k ohm pull up resistor.

Better top end and improved throttle response are gains ive noticed.

Robs89LXi
05-10-2005, 03:08 PM
As far as what?

My hatch is obd1 and running fine (except a little idle problem but I think thats the iac valve) with only a speed sensor cel and thats only because I havent found a 6k ohm pull up resistor.

Better top end and improved throttle response are gains ive noticed.

Great, that is what I wanted to hear! Now, get busy on the "how-to" :)!!
I'm about a week away from cranking my (new) engine, then will be the break in period, but soon after that, I will be doing the conversion. I know it is a lot to ask for with a how-to on this, but the sooner you do it is the better because the information will still be fresh in your mind. Old guys like me tend to forget things if we put them off too long :).
Good job on the conversion,
Rob.

NXRacer
05-10-2005, 03:24 PM
i know justin is using the F22 dizzy from the F22a6. Do you know which one you're using guaynabo?

guaynabo89
05-10-2005, 03:54 PM
I'm using the same external coil dist. 92-93 Accord I think with the 95 integra ls ecu.

I'd love to write a how to but right now I'm just so busy plus I dont remeber half of the wiring off the top of my head. Id have to go over the wiring on the car to be able to doi it.

Plus I'm not finished. Id like to ad the eld sensor and I'w switching over to a b16 intake mani so all the wiring will get redone once I swap that in.

I finished this actually back in February and took a long bout 4 months to complete just because I have to cake care of my family first. So only working an hour on it here another hour onit a week after that really spreads out the process.

I think I spent about 300 in parts.

Justin86
05-10-2005, 03:56 PM
I have that F22A6 dizzy and a civic P06 ECU. I found that it ran better on the F22 ECU off that bat but once I get to change the fuel tables on the P06 it should be the better ECU in the long run. Also one problem is getting the 6K resistor(I can't find them) and the american ECU needs an ELD but it can be disabled same with the EGR, but I haven't had any EGR problems so far just the ELD and speed sensor. I some what have a how-to started just no time to finsh lately.
Also one thing I found the different ECU require different timming spot, like the F22 Dizzy like it best with 10deg less advance then the P06 did. So before you re weld the dizzy legs in a spot it is a good idea it find where it idles best. Also Highly HIGHLY recomend the use of a wide band O2 it make the tuning so nice and DIY. :cool:

Robs89LXi
05-10-2005, 04:52 PM
I'm using the same external coil dist. 92-93 Accord I think with the 95 integra ls ecu.

I'd love to write a how to but right now I'm just so busy plus I dont remeber half of the wiring off the top of my head. Id have to go over the wiring on the car to be able to doi it.

Plus I'm not finished. Id like to ad the eld sensor and I'w switching over to a b16 intake mani so all the wiring will get redone once I swap that in.

I finished this actually back in February and took a long bout 4 months to complete just because I have to cake care of my family first. So only working an hour on it here another hour onit a week after that really spreads out the process.

I think I spent about 300 in parts.

Thanks for the info. Yeah, that is exactly what I was worried about. Unless you write things down as you do them, it is easy to forget exactly what you did. I know it's asking a lot, but please jot down stuff as you think of it. Every little bit helps as we all find our ways through this. The greatest asset we have here is the ability to share information. By helping each other, we help ourselves.


I have that F22A6 dizzy and a civic P06 ECU. I found that it ran better on the F22 ECU off that bat but once I get to change the fuel tables on the P06 it should be the better ECU in the long run. Also one problem is getting the 6K resistor(I can't find them) and the american ECU needs an ELD but it can be disabled same with the EGR, but I haven't had any EGR problems so far just the ELD and speed sensor. I some what have a how-to started just no time to finsh lately.
Also one thing I found the different ECU require different timming spot, like the F22 Dizzy like it best with 10deg less advance then the P06 did. So before you re weld the dizzy legs in a spot it is a good idea it find where it idles best. Also Highly HIGHLY recomend the use of a wide band O2 it make the tuning so nice and DIY.

Great, glad to know you are working on the how-to. Same request; jot things down as you do them. Nice find on the timing spot; never thought of that. Also, what is ELD, and please tell me more about type/tuning of wideband.
Thanks.
__________________

guaynabo89
05-11-2005, 03:46 PM
Thanks for the info. Yeah, that is exactly what I was worried about. Unless you write things down as you do them, it is easy to forget exactly what you did. I know it's asking a lot, but please jot down stuff as you think of it. Every little bit helps as we all find our ways through this. The greatest asset we have here is the ability to share information. By helping each other, we help ourselves.



Great, glad to know you are working on the how-to. Same request; jot things down as you do them. Nice find on the timing spot; never thought of that. Also, what is ELD, and please tell me more about type/tuning of wideband.
Thanks.
__________________

ELD is just a sensor with three wires that monitors the electric load on the car to help the ecu compensate and keep idle constant.

Robs89LXi
05-11-2005, 04:00 PM
Hmmm.. what does it look like, and where is it located?

Justin86
05-12-2005, 05:31 PM
it is in the engine fuse box with the obd-1 cars. It shouldn't be a problem once I unchip it.

NXRacer
06-13-2005, 02:12 PM
a little FYI - i've been talking to these guys http://www.jkobd.com/ who are currently working on an OBD1 conversion harness for the 3g's. I'll let you know if/when i hear they have the kit made and ready to ship.

Justin86
06-13-2005, 03:27 PM
Nice Caleb, that should help make everything more direct bolt on. I spent a good amount of time to make sure I had re pined my civic harness to work with accord. This should help save the headache from the other members.

Robs89LXi
06-13-2005, 05:21 PM
Check this guy out. He has done the conversion harnes for OUR CAR before. If I wasn't dragging my feet on my car so much, I'd already have had him make one for me. Have emailed him several times, and Jason sounds like a real nice guy.

http://www.jkobd.com/0to1.htm

88' Accord Ltd
06-19-2005, 02:15 PM
I don't know about anyone else but Getting legs re-welded on the dizzy or replacing guts is a lot of hassle. What I am doing right now is using the 4g dizzy, cutting off one of the legs on the distributor to clear the water pipe, theres no other way, then making up new mounting points on the head for the 4g distributor.

Getting the obd-0 to obd-1 harness made at boomslang and running a p06 chipped for uberdata with the data cable. Its currently running an ls map setup to run 9lbs. Too bad im not that far along yet! With my car down and out for the last 3 months and getting another car going etc has cost me all my mod money so I havent made much progress.

I really can't forsee many problems this way and think it would be easier in the future to be replacing the distributor should it fail. My main concern would be the movement to set the timing properly but then theres always a way.

I'm taking all of my obd-1 goodies to get put together first week in july. The Head is going to be port and polished 3 angle valve grind etc, with the colt cams mild tri-flow cam and my cam gear, not to mention the b16 manifold. I could go on with the pile of parts I have here. :Owned2:

Legend_master
06-19-2005, 02:31 PM
a little FYI - i've been talking to these guys http://www.jkobd.com/ who are currently working on an OBD1 conversion harness for the 3g's. I'll let you know if/when i hear they have the kit made and ready to ship.

Jason made my ECU sub harness for my LS/vtec swap.

Robs89LXi
06-19-2005, 07:31 PM
What I am doing right now is using the 4g dizzy, cutting off one of the legs on the distributor to clear the water pipe, theres no other way, then making up new mounting points on the head for the 4g distributor.

How are you making new mounting points on the head? Got any pics?

88' Accord Ltd
06-20-2005, 04:21 AM
How are you making new mounting points on the head? Got any pics?


We are going to be welding a new piece of metal onto the head and drilling out a hole in the proper place, nut and bolt, using a huge washer to get the extra movement if its needed to set the timing. Similar to how openloop first did the conversion but with something a bit more solid. I'll be sure to get pics when its finished.

88' Accord Ltd
06-20-2005, 01:43 PM
Also we tried fitting several different distributors to the head. If I remember right the obd-1 d series dizzy was pretty similar to the f22 dizzy I am going to use. The obd-2 d series dosen't match up well neither does an ls dizzy. Really the best bet is the f22.

stereo
07-14-2005, 11:57 PM
which dizzy are you guys using as I have both 4th gen ones the one with the external coil is 180 degrees off compaired to the internal one, also i've ground the crap out of the dizzy all 3 legs to clear the thermostat housing. now I just have to find someone to weld the legs back on and fill the hole made by the 12mm nut on the thermostat housing durring the test fit. ( have to pull all the guts out of dizzy). then it's to the easy stuff ...wireing.

hot-87-hatch
10-06-2005, 03:00 PM
I've been looking into this ecu conversion thing. I've been to this website www.xenocron.com. The guys in new jersey and sells obd1 ecus, already chipped and socketed with a usb adaptor for datalogging. He'll sell it in a kit with four reburnable chips. the board in the ecu has a ZIF socket so you can change chips with out having to resodder and all that shit. He sells also an emulator which can interface between a laptop using Chrome, Uberdata, hondata ect. From what I hear, you can get free versions of this software.

I asked him about this type of application via e-mail. He said, well I'll just paste his resopnse here....(hope he won't mind me quoting him)

"As long as the ECU and the dizzy match up, you can run it on a Honda motor. So if the ECU is OBD1, the distributor needs to be an OBD1 (24 reluctor tooth) distributor. I am 99% sure the standard 0bd0-1 conversion harness will work just fine, but the car needs to be MPFI spec (converted already up from DPFI if your car was that originally)."


Now I'm not really sure what the difference between MPFI(multi-portfuel-injection) dpfi(direct-port-fuel-injection) but this difference could be why the harness isn't plug n play.


Now running a20a's is not this guys specialty. I think he does mostly obd0 turbo applications. But there is a lot of good info and links there.

I did the math and with his conversion kit, emulator, a distributor, and an Innovate motorsports wide band o2 meter (for tuning) you could have a tunable ecu for 700-800 bucks. Plus the fab work to fit the dist. and of course the lap top to run the reprogramming software. I here that CHROME is a little more user friendly than UBERDATA. I've seen some sample screens of this software and it looks pretty complete. If you want to have a look for yourself check out www.xenocron.com.

I'm seriously thinking about using his system mostly because I want to start learning how to tune. And you can tune for your present mods and If you add something, plug up your laptop and retune in real time while the car is running! Sounds pretty F?:#&$^ exciting to me!

bobafett
10-07-2005, 07:00 AM
yeah i have made a few post saying pretty much exactly what you just posted there... hopefully you follow through with your plan, it would be nice to have a few poeople trying to accomplish this, to help each other out. maybe if we get like 5 guys together we can get a small discount on harnesses.

and dpfi is dual point on those old d15's (i think), the "conversion" they speak up is upgrading to mpfi with 4 fuel injectors.

crome is a friendly editor, but you have to pay for the full version, i dont know what extra functionality that gets you though...

hot-87-hatch
10-07-2005, 05:18 PM
i think the biggest problem i will face is making the adjustments to fit the adaptor to our harness. I here it almost fits bit a few things need to be changed. I wish I knew exactly what wires needed to be switched but I haven't found any concrete info on this. There was a post earlier in this thread that I saved and tried to look at but there's a lot of things I don't understand and on this chart comparing pinouts between our obd0 and an acura obd1 had a lot of question marks and blanks. This problem I fear will be the most frustrating and time consuming part of the whole project.

Any way I have a time frame in mind for when I want to complete this and I'm aiming at January. I have to buy a new motor and and a laptop and all the tuning parts as well as a few boltons wile I have the motor out. Before I take my old motor out, I'd like to also the dizzy fabbed. that way I have a little less downtime while waiting for the work to be done.

I contacted another supplier of conversion harnesses named Kenji. I asked him how compatible his system was with our cars and he gave me a very vague answer that wasn't even relevant to my question. Don't think I'll be doin business with that guy. It seems he just wants the money. Chris at xenocron really seemed to be informed and down to lend his knowledge.

Anyway I plan on doing alot of reading to try and get a headstart on the wiring problem. Wish me Luck. I'll keep posting for anyone who wants to read. And if anybody can help me out with the harness thing I'd appreciate it. I'm gonna do this with or without help.

Justin86
10-09-2005, 09:40 AM
An adapter harness will make it very nice esp. to hook up a wideband or even do a VTEC swap. These pins need to be swapped in order to use a civic OBD-1 harness; they are all OBD-0 pin location on our original harness
Here’s a pic………..
http://img270.imageshack.us/img270/7421/dsc006528hu.th.jpg (http://img270.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc006528hu.jpg)

B2-A6 Evap, C1-B10 CYP-P, C2-B12 CYP-M, A17-B1 hazard, add shielded wire to C2 CYK-P, add or use old O2 wire for adding the ICM signal to B17, add shielded wire to C1 CYK-M, lastly B18-B16 speed sensor (also needs a 6K resistor as previously noted which I have not confirmed the correct location on our cars)

It helps to have the engine harness out that way you can easily and cleanly add the shielded wires from the dizzy to the ECU. When adding the shielded you want to ground it with the other shield wires close to the dizzy plug. The ICM (igniter control module) black/yellow needs to be grounded to the coil which is where the aftermarket coil comes in handy and hooks up to coil negative terminal. The other ICM yellow/green goes to the ECU which I used the old O2 wire which is solid white.


As for a good tuning platform I'd go with Crome, it has a lot more options then all the other DIY programs. http://forum.pgmfi.org/viewtopic.php?t=6507

bobafett
10-09-2005, 11:03 AM
yeah i havent seen any of the other programs, but crome pro seems like the way to go for someone who is new to tuning.. :)

hot-87-hatch
10-10-2005, 04:32 PM
I thank you for post by the way and your instructions will help me out so much.

I'm a little confused by the following sentence...
"add shielded wire to C2 CYK-P, add or use old O2 wire for adding the ICM signal to B17, add shielded wire to C2 CYK-M"

I think by "CYK-P" you meant CKP-P. And by "CYK-M" you meant CKP-M.
Secondly, how to I add two signals to one pin (C2)? Maybe one sheilded wire goes to C1?

Also I found out where the VSS goes. IT's b18. The 6k resistor just needs to be added in line? ANother thing about the speed sensor. I think obd0 has a sensor too but runs off the gauge which is driven manually. If this is true do I even have to add a b18-b16 VSS, or could I just use this signal?

Justin86
10-11-2005, 07:57 PM
it s suppose to be c1 to CYK-P, C2 was a typo on that part. AS far as I know the CYK-M and CYK-P, etc are correct abrevation but they don't madder the pin locations are correct.
It does madder where the 6k resistor is, if you read the how to on PGM-fi it says that. It needs to go on the back of the gauge cluster but they only show where it goes on a Civic..................

guaynabo89
10-15-2005, 06:04 PM
ok guys heres a new issue. I was looking at the link carotman found about adding a 6kohm resistor (http://www.classictiger.com/HondaCRX/VSS/honda_vss_engineering_analysis.htm )and found out the vss signal on my 87 efi hatch goes through an amplifier on the back of the gauge cluster so the link with the crx cluster isnt just the same.

small plastic box on the right side.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid191/p3c2983dc783ff33ecad128dc1ff37e4f/f1e0548e.jpg

the small yellow plug that goes into it has three wires. one black one black/yellow and the last yellow. The yellow is out to the ecu and the other two are power and ground.

now on the left side of the plastic amplifier box are three wires. one is black/white which is a ground and the other two look pink and both put out small amounts of voltage. one was about 1.1 and the other was .6 I think. and all three go into the cluster to the speedo.

question is what type of voltage does this vss amp sent to the ecu and how to either bypass it or modify the signal?

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid191/p879131eaeecc8194431e3a60adea43f6/f1e0538a.jpg

Justin86
10-16-2005, 11:04 AM
I read that a little closer and all they did was hook up the resistor to the 12V power from the fuel gauge to the VSS signal. The 12V is very easy to find, there is 2 screws on the back of the cluster both with a + right next to them.
The question is where to tap in the 6K to the VSS cause the realy makes it difficult. The VSS signal to the ECU is C1(yellow wire on harness), It is the yellow plug on the back of the realy (circled in red, top pin). Or to tap it in before the realy which has 3 wired going to it from the speed sensor, black/white and 2 pink wires. If I could find a 6K resistor I'd try it out today but the local radio shack doesn't carry them

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/3016/gaugecluster7ki.th.jpg (http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gaugecluster7ki.jpg)

guaynabo89
11-21-2005, 06:34 PM
OK guys good news on the vss.

I used the example carotman posted with the resistor. You wire it up the same way in the diagram but you have to use the speed pulser grounding signal on the gauge cluster plug a2. (this wire goes to the cruise control unit) then you cut the vss signal wire on gauge cluster harness c1 and connect that to the resitor.

I drove around for half an hour in stop and go traffic and had it up to 60 and no cel light.:rockon:

The car is parked again for a week or two but I'llpost any more results if thee cel comes back with code 17/vss.

AccordEpicenter
12-25-2005, 07:30 PM
can you disable the vss under crome/uberdata?

Swap_File
12-25-2005, 09:03 PM
I found this site that I think explains the VSS fix too:

http://www.classictiger.com/HondaCRX/VSS/honda_vss_engineering_analysis.htm

guaynabo89
12-26-2005, 08:34 AM
I found this site that I think explains the VSS fix too:
http://www.classictiger.com/HondaCRX/VSS/honda_vss_engineering_analysis.htm


thats the same link carot posted in an earlier post.

thats what I used on my car except the lxi has some sort of amplifier between the speedeo and ecu. I didint use that at all and used the speed pulser output from the gauge cluser with the resistor to the vss of the ecu.

I double checked the speed pulser output to that of an obd1 speed sensor out of a 91 accord and are pretty much the same. Two on/off pulses per tire revolution. Thye only diff is the speed pulser is a ground/open circuit and the obd1 vss is a 12v/open.

Swap_File
01-01-2006, 10:00 AM
thats the same link carot posted in an earlier post.

Whoops, I guess I should have read through this thread a bit more before posting. I thought it looked familiar...

Thanks to refering me to this thread from the "Project, 4g Distributor / Ecu ( Obd-1 )" thread. It has alot of useful information.

carotman
07-31-2006, 08:29 AM
I wonder if that 6k resistor will make the cruise control ecu freak out?!?

I'm thinking of putting that resistor somewhere in my OBD-1 conversion harness. It would make things easier. Just connect a resistor between the 12V pin and the VSS pin on the harness and voila!.

It's just that I want to keep the Cruise control functionnal in my car.

Maybe I could just install a diode near the cruise ECU so it will never see 12V but it will see ground.

anyone has an idea?

thegreatdane
07-31-2006, 08:56 AM
yea I've got an idea, cruise control SUCK!! :D ...because mine doesnt have it lol

But I think you might be right with the diode on the cruise control!

carotman
07-31-2006, 09:07 AM
Yup, I'll have to get that wiring diagram sorted out to source the best place to put that diode. I don't want to hack the wiring too much and make it possible to return back to stock if necessary.

BTW, do you have your B20A running on an OBD1 ecu yet?

guaynabo89
07-31-2006, 09:15 AM
I wonder if that 6k resistor will make the cruise control ecu freak out?!?
I'm thinking of putting that resistor somewhere in my OBD-1 conversion harness. It would make things easier. Just connect a resistor between the 12V pin and the VSS pin on the harness and voila!.
It's just that I want to keep the Cruise control functionnal in my car.
Maybe I could just install a diode near the cruise ECU so it will never see 12V but it will see ground.
anyone has an idea?


I too was worried about this and installed a zerner diode( 2 bucks at radio shack) between the 6k resistor and cruise ecu.

I mounted both the 6k resistor and diode on the gauge cluster wiring harness.

I think I had pictures somewhere in this thread or another one about what I did.

No CEL's till this day.