Dragstrip pictures. (yes 1/4 mile times too)

[carotman]

Ok ok ok

As requested, here is my time at the dragstrip I am the car on the left. (number 535

http://pages.infinit.net/omus/forum/156time.jpg

So, yes my best time was 15.6..

That's a bit disapointing but I am still very satisfied and here's why.

That was my first attempt at drag racing after all those years. That was on my 4th run. All the other runs were around 15.7.

I had a real hard time launching at the start. Most of the time, i got enormous wheel hop like I had never seen. The rest of the time the tires just spinned. The Konis are only set at half of their adjustment so that might be the source of the problem.. I have no choice but to adjust them stiffer now.

I really got to practice my launches tough. I'm sure that I can lower it at least to 15.3 if I manage to do a good start. As you can see on the timeslip, the other car did 15.4 but was 3 mph slower than me at the end of the race. That car was my friend's 4th gen F22B with almost the same mods as me but he has tuned his engine with camgears and a chipped ECU. Most of my times were exactly like this. I had a poor launch but managed to get back to the other racer at the end so this is quite encouraging.

Don't forget my engine is still untuned. The camgears are set at somewhat TDC with naked eye precision... the pk2 ECU obviously does not par with the B20A I have right now. With proper tuning and a good driver (lol) I should be able to do a low 15, high 14 times.... close to the H22A 4th gen Accords

Oh BTW, those times are done wit ha 100% stock exhaust and fully loaded interior.

Here are some pictures of the day... http://www.clubaccordquebec.com/temp/napi/DCP_3708.JPG

You can see how poor I was launching there :D... I still won tough
http://www.clubaccordquebec.com/temp/napi/DCP_3720.JPG

Yokohama A520 on Integra rims.
http://www.clubaccordquebec.com/temp/napi/DCP_3727.JPG


Even with this average time, I'm very satisfied. I must add that I need to upgrade to a B16A intake, overbored TB, header and underdrive pulleys... 14's are attainable for sure!

[Civvy]

U need lose some weight man! what psi u have in the fronts? did u correct ure camber again for max grip?

[carotman]

The tires had around 25 psi cold. The camber is set at 0

[NXRacer]

thats awesome! good work.

[accordlxi2.0]

it look's like your rear wheel's was spinning not the front . . . . .
i think it was worth it, nice job.

[Civvy]

We used 15psi last time ...i think!

[maka_RTH]

it look's like your rear wheel's was spinning not the front . . . . .
i think it was worth it, nice job.
how could the rear wheels be spinning when it's a front wheel drive car :ugh:

[Hash_man_Se_i]

Thats pretty good man... what elevation are you at there?

I know my friend just ran 15.4 on friday at our high elevation in his 03 Accord v6.

[blazin3gen]

15.6 http://www.hondahookup.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif

His 60ft was worse than yours and he still ran a better time. Still not bad for an Accord. I would say more, but u running 15.6 is enough , especially after u talked some smack about my STOCK B18c1. Run a P06, Wideband o2 and some Uberdata. A lil A/F does wonders. What Compression are u running? How aggressive are those cams?http://www.hondahookup.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/nodno.gif

[thegreatdane]

Not a bad time considering the PK2 ECU. Do you plan on keeping that ecu or do you want to convert to OBD1?

PS. I can only see the timeslip picture..

[HostileJava]

While that is def a good time I was kinda hoping for better. All the same can't wait to see what times you eventually reach with it.

[88LXi68]

ditch that 100% STOCK exhaust and get the 2.5" piping with a nice magnaflow or flowmaster muffler.

[MoonScryer]

Carot: not bad, given you got a fully loaded car. Drop your tires down to 15psi like Civvy said, and semight consider getting some of those coil spacing rubber block things on like JC Whitney or something to stick in the coils of your rear springs - this is an old trick that will keep the rear end from sagging down and transferring weight to the rear of the car on launch which equals less traction. This will improve your 60ft times more than anything.

Oh, and the car looked good in the batch of pics you put up - pretty.

[carotman]

Yeah I do plan on getting a P06 ECU this winter.. the PK2 is ok but it doesn't give the full performance that the engine is capable of.

Also, the intake manifold is obviously too small. I can hear the engine litteraly scream when the dual runners open at 5500 rpm. the B16A intake with overbored TB should solve the problem.

Putting those rubber dampers in the spring should help yeah. I already got some in the garage so I guess it's worth a try.

Like I said, seeing how bad I launched and how good it performed during the race, I can only lower this time more.

I am completely new at dragracing so...

I can't wait for the dyno numbers... that should be more accurate than my racing attempt

Oh, if you look at the second drag picture, I was close to car behind this F22A Accord. The right side track had less traction and I launched the car at a too high rpm result: spinned the tires.

I still won by half a car and did 15.7.... he did 16.1 so I KNOW I can do better :D

[Gregg86DX]

Hey carot, good numbers and I totally agree with you regarding the upgrades you are looking at. I plan on doing almost exactly the same thing. I already have a B16 manifold and TB sitting on the shelf, and I am looking for a P75 or PR4 ECU. Once I get the ECU installed and sorted, I will install the manifold.

So I actually went to the strip this weekend too, but my results were a bit sad. To the point, my best was 16.4 at 83.5mph and a 2.4 60'. I was rather disappointed with these times, but I know there is plenty of room for improvement. Just to refresh everyone's memory, my setup is a stock B20A with CAI and full 2.25" exhaust. I am also using the PK2 ECU.

A couple of things that I think contributed to my slow times:
- my car is a full weight SEI, probably the fattest 3rd gen made.
- my tires are 205-40-17 running at 32psi and my wheels are way heavy Motegi's.
- I still did not have the VSS hooked up but I'm not sure if that would hurt or not.
- I put the 4 wire O2 sensor in, but the car still does not seem to be running right. I am getting a definite part-throttle misfire.

One thing that is noteworthy, my times definitely improved when I unplugged the secondary intake tract actuator (forcing the butterfly's to stay open). This helped overall power and did not seem to hurt low-end power. You may want to try this out, carot.

So, like you carot, I know my car has more in it and I won't be happy until I am well into the 15's on street tires with my current setup. I need to get a programmable ECU in it and get the thing running right and I should get a lot closer.

Gregg

[Coroncho80]

Not bad.

[accordlxi2.0]

maka RTH i said it look's like they were spinning . . not the rear's are spinning.
i know/knew it's a front wheel drive car!

i like what yall are doing though . . . .

[blazin3gen]

not bad not bad at all carrot that thing so awesome!

[SteveDX89]

I was expecting more. Let's race, Carot. :)

[maka_RTH]

maka RTH i said it look's like they were spinning . . not the rear's are spinning.
i know/knew it's a front wheel drive car!
my bad. i think it's just one of those things that could be read a couple different ways, and i read it the wrong way. the one thing that sucks about talking online, you can't tell HOW somebody is saying something.
anyways, yah, can't wait to see your times get quicker and quicker ;)

[carotman]

They will get quicker for sure don't worry about that :D The rear wheels look like they are spinnging because the rims are multi-spoke and the camera doesn't have a high enough obturation time to catch them in movement I guess.(that's not my own cam) I do have higher resolution pictures tough.

I thought that the intake manifold would provide enough flow but I was wrong. The bigger cams and ported head cannot breathe correctly and I can actually feel it. I did not have any issues with the O2 sensor and VSS on my side. I thought about running the car open headers but I didn't do it since I had nothing to attach the downpipe to. That should improve the times i'm pretty. I'm running the SE-I exhaust mated with a semi-cheap downpipe and stock exhaust manifold. I know some of you think it's slow but the F22B Accord I raced against was just sooo close to me I could have beat it with little tuning. Those F22B/H23A are good engines and they cost more than our B20A.

I unvested like 2500 on this setupp including the engine, parts and work on the head... still cheaper than any newer B series swap.

I might not be able to go on the dyno or dragstrip again this year since winter is comming quickly but I'll keep you updated.

What does a carbed A20A runs on the 1/4 mile anyway??? I've seen one doing 18.0.... that's definetly an improvement I think!

[SteveDX89]

What does a carbed A20A runs on the 1/4 mile anyway??? I've seen one doing 18.0.... that's definetly an improvement I think!

Ridiculously slow. :lol:

[night]

hmmm, you should be faster for sure :dunno:

my car was breaking into 14's with an 86-88mph trap (pretty sure,its been a long time. i'll look up my traps when i get home). that was with the 89 LXi engine, but on cool winter nights and with the heavy ass rims in my sig. like 14.95's.
although if i could have ever gotten my best 60ft with my best ET, it would have been 14.8's.

and now i should have the crvtec in it within a couple months :rockon:

[carotman]

on one of my 15.7 runs, my trap speed was 90 mph. If I manage to get a better start... the time is going to be lower for sure.

Maybe changing the torque rod bushings would help... The konis were too soft for sure so I don't know what caused that wheel hop.... my cigarette lighter poped out during one of the races :lol:

[Coroncho80]

I unvested like 2500 on this setupp including the engine, still cheaper than any newer B series swap.


I don't know what are you talking about. Didn't you know you can get a B16A2 from a 2k civic Si for less then that .... INSTALLED!? unless you are talking canadian money..... if that's the case, I dont know how much that would be in dollars.

[carotman]

Last time I checked, the B16A was less powerful than the B20A, required custom mounts and shift linkage that alore is worth 1k at placeracing. They make the same HP but the B20A has alot more torque... even more torque than a B18C.

I made a quick dollar conversion and the total is around 2300 US for the modded B20A. (depends of the exhange rate)

The B16A here costs around 2k for a 2nd gen. With the engine mounts and other little stuff, It brings the total to over 3K for an unknown B16A thah has an hydraulic transmission. I would need a cable tranny or do a hydro conversion. (more $$$). The 1st gen B16A isn't an option. Most of them need to be rebuild to I prefer to do this with the B20A.

The only advantages the B16A has over the B20A is the VTEC (I don't really need it) and all the parts are available at the dealer. You have to get some parts in Japan forthe B20A but it's really not that much. You can even get them in Europe to the language barrier isn't a trouble.. Alot of B series parts will fit on the B20A like cams, intake manifold, valve covers, camgears, pulleys, LSD, seals, distributors, etc.

Oh, the B20A has 0 miles on it (got it rebuild) while the B16A would kinda be unknown (if it's JDM). I could get a USDM B16A2 but it's a tad more expensive. The B20A cost me $350....

So, for this cost, I got a brand new engine that can match the newer B series.

Of course, the problem is the ECU... no OBD-0 ECU is capable of drivingthis engine at it's full potential.... I'm taking care of this soon.

It all depends on what you want to do with the car. The newer B series are really good engine, I just chose the other option.

[Coroncho80]

alst time I checked, the B16A was less powerful than the B20A


The B16A2 is a better engine than the B20A. If you wanna prove that, we can get a civic hatch with a STOCK B16A2 motor and one with a stock B20A motor and run to see who is stronger. Trust me, B20A will go down. Now, it will be sad to see a STOCK 1.6 beat a stock 2.0 littler.

As far as price goes, you guys are getting robbed because the B16s are not as expensive as they tell you guys.

[accordlxi2.0]

i don't mean to change the subject but i've alway's wondered why acura integra's engine has alot of horses but little torque?
and since you guy's have b series i figured yall could know??

[SteveDX89]

Newer B's have less torque because of the shorter stroke. They make power up top when HP takes over. Carot, I'm running my stock 1st gen B16 w/ I/H/E and unknown miles on Saturday. We'll see how it compares to your built B20A. :D

[accordlxi2.0]

oh okay, that's cool.

[carotman]

Steve, you should better times than me (I hope so). A stock Civic SI can do low 15's with the B16A2 if the driver knows what he's doing. Your car is obviously lighter than mine (I got power acessories all around) and has something to make the B16A breathe as it should.

My engine needs alot of adjusting and the car too. That was merely a "test" drive so see if everything was ok in the engine and I'm satisfied with the results. There is still alot of adjusting that needs to be done. This is a custom engine so you got the custom work to do that comes with it :P

BTW, I'll post a picture of my distributor soon.... I noticed this morning that my intake cam is set to open LATER than TDC on the camgear....

Coroncho, if you can get a B16A for cheap (a 2nd gen) show me where. I got some friends that would want some. The 1st gen is OK but there are some parts unavailable in America... (like the distributor and vtec solenoid)

[SteveDX89]

Well, I hope you get all your bugs worked out. Saturday will be my first time running at the track so I hope the newbness doesn't hurt me. I can drive the car pretty well so we'll see what happens.

15 sec Accords > 17 sec Accords. :rockon:

[night]

how about 14 sec preludes :sadwave:

anyway, the modern B swap isnt that hard. im still trying to find some tranny parts and some better pistons otherwise id be about done with mine by now. but 1k in place racing shit is definitly not needed.

and you can get an LS full swap for 600-800, or a 1gen B16 complete for 1000-1200.

my setup so far is looking to be, well, if someone wants a list ill make another thread. either B is a worthy swap, but i think it really depends on your final goals. coming down to ease of swap and power/money desires.

[Gregg86DX]

Can't we all just get along? :)

Anyway, it's kinda a moot point, since the B20A swap simply is not an option anymore. If B20A's were plentiful for the $500-$1000 that they typically went for, it would be a no-brainer since they drop in with minimal additional work and cost.

Personally I think that, currently, the B16A1 is the best bang-for-buck since they are readily available and retail around $1200 or $1300. If you can fabricate your own motor mounts and can do some wiring, it should be possible to get that swap done for under $2000 and benefit from the great aftermarket support for those engines. A little more money and work can get you an LS/Vtec setup.

Actually, a DIY low-boost turbo A20 setup is also a good option these days.

It's mostly a matter of how much work you can do yourself and how much money you want to spend on a 15 year old economy car. :)

Gregg

[thegreatdane]

blablabla economy car.

LOL (http://www.l0rn.de.vu/)

[Blue Impact]

Yokohama A520 on Integra rims.
http://www.clubaccordquebec.com/temp/napi/DCP_3727.JPG


They're del Sol rims. :D

15.6 is not bad, man.

[accordlxi2.0]

just imagine once you get all those bug's worked out, plus getting used to the track luanch.
i belive you'll get into the 14's.

[Lok]

I thing, a nice N/A B20A ( like carotman's) is Ok for CA3 Accord..
15.7sec is a nice time for a 2600lbs car with that power..
Stock B16A2 (160hp) on Civic 4d Eg (2460lbs, same drag coeficient like CA3 Accord, but much shorter gear box) runs 16.1-16.4sec the 0-1/4mile with professional driver
(european magazines results)...
Carotman has performance cams, but stock header-exaust and stock intake manifold-TB..............that is not good, with a b16a1 manifold-65mm TB-and a 60mm internal
diameter(custom) exaust, i thing will pass the 200hp barier easy(don't forget that he run's 11:1 compression, dramatic improvement if compare it with stock 9.5:1), and he will drop the times to high 14sec ( the same as jdm INTEGRA TYPE-R 195hp-2400lbs).

The top-performance N/A engine for our Accord is B18C5 ( like wickedaccord's) or
B20VTEC with aftermarket parts, but since PLACE RACING went out of business,
i thing we must continue with the olds A20-B20..............they are very nice engines
and could make huge amount of power with TURBO-NITRO-and N/A tunning (but more
difficult N/A than newer Honda engines because of no many aftermarket parts)

[Hash_man_Se_i]

I am curious to know what elevation carotman is running at? anyone know, because I know where I would run here, i would take off .7 of a second and that would be my ET at sea level...

I think that this B20 has lots of potential, and can't wait to get mine underway, i think that now with 11:1 compression, improving the air-flow in and out of the engine would durastically improve the performance of the car... best of luck with future track times carotman, and I am getting very anxious to see some dyno results.

[night]

Stock B16A2 (160hp) on Civic 4d Eg (2460lbs, same drag coeficient like CA3 Accord, but much shorter gear box) runs 16.1-16.4sec the 0-1/4mile with professional driver


:ugh:

[Hash_man_Se_i]

BTW, my friend just ran 15.4 at the track with his '03 accord v6 coupe, with injen intake... I would say that the fact that carot's accord is on par with a 250hp car is pretty damn good.

[carotman]

Yeah like you said, the engine sure needs to breathe better and flow better on the exhaust side.

It's all part of the neverending project. It started as a stock Carbed Accord with no options... :D

[Hash_man_Se_i]

Hahah thats awesome, and how it has evolved is wicked... i know you park the car for the winter, so i can't see what you get around to doing while its sitting there... gonna be quite interesting to see, and exciting too.

I am definately gonna have to meet up with you next year when i'm at georgian college.

[carotman]

The car is definetly parked all winter. So far, I haven't been able to find a place where I can work on the car while it's in storage. This means it just sits there with the car cover on until I take it out of it's winter sleep.

During the winter, I'm basicaly collecting parts for the next season. I won't do much to more the car this year since I'll be storing it in about a month. Maybe fix the leaky oilpan drain bolt but that's all.

That would be great if we had a meet once you're at Georgian college. I saw it's in ontario but where will you be exactly?

[FyreDaug]

Not to bash yoru car man (and please take that seriously because I hate my sunfire) but my sunfire ran 15.6 with just an intake. Then again it is a new car and had <35000km on it. Its was a 2004 with an ecotec. I was proud of the car when I liked the piece of shit (that breaks down all the time) but lets see you push lower 15's!

[AccordEpicenter]

if youre having wheelhop issues, check your motor mounts betcha some are broken or shot, take the tire pressure in the front to 18psi and burnout hardcore thru the water/bleach in the burnout box, that should net you a 2.2 60 ft and maybe a 15.4. What were you shifting at? Yea im sure you could pull better times with some tuning.

[A20A1]

So would solid motor mounts reduce wheel hop... I really got to get mine under control.

I can't see the pics... but there are no red x's either.. :sadwave:

[RobT5580]

As i found with my B20A using my stock computer was not good enough and it was running lean on my wideband O2. Carotman is running the prelude ecu which is certainly a better match but i still doubt its running to it full potential. Also he was using the dual stage manifold which i found extremely restrictive. So unless someone does what i wanted to do which is set the B20A up with a stand alone and have it tuned we wont really know its full potential naturally aspirated. I may do it if shit fails with my turbo but at this point im not willing to spend anymore money on it.

[AccordEpicenter]

you cant let the b20a turbo fail, rob... too many trash talkers are expected to go down in flames against that car...

[carotman]

Hehe the pictures might not work anymore.

Anyway this was more a test drive than anything else.

I will see with my A/F meter how the Lude ECU controls the fuel but this is definetly one of the first things to change with the intake manifold. The good thing is.... I got those parts in the basement right now... waiting for my car to get out of storage ..... in 2 weeks :D


The rear and side mounts ahde eurethane in them while the front mount is the Original mount that came with the car. I'm sure it's owrn out and needs to be replaced. The torque rod bushings are also the Honda Originals (16 years old). Those will need to be replaced to reduce wheel hop.

I don't know if I mentioned it but I had so much wheel hop that the cig lighter poped out on one of the launches.

Anyway, I know I can lower this by at least 1 second.... this is where the fun begins :D

[A20A1]

Oh, I didn't realise how old this thread was... lol :)

[Lok]

Yes, I agree with Rob..............stand alone ECU is the way to go if you wan't to take the most out of the B20A.
Old B20A/LS ECU are not that good.
Is not necessary to work with AEM ECU ( which is the best but very expensive) but
one e-manage G-Reddy will be OK.
Also one very good mod for B20A is INDIVIDUAL THROTTLE BODIES....................you
can take more than 35hp if you change the stock intake manifold with one ITB kit (Jenvey).
Euro Accord B20a2 with 137hp goes 190+hp stock with header,race cat, free flow exhaust and ITB kit with stand alone ECU.
I think Carotman's jdm B20a with 11:1 compression, regrid cams, P&P head, one good exhaust system (with Header) and one ITB kit will make easy over 200 wheel hp...

[carotman]

The ITBs might come in the future. I was seriously thinking about it but I got the JG Edelbrock manifold for now. This is the biggest thing you can get without goint to an ITB setup :D

That's good to know that the B20A is capable of such power with an intake upgrade

[RobT5580]

you cant let the b20a turbo fail, rob... too many trash talkers are expected to go down in flames against that car...

I dont plan on giving up but i have to catch a break somewhere and it better be with the 3rd block cause im out of money and patience on top of personal problems.

And carot the throttle responce was 10x better with the edelbrock manifold and 65mm tb when i put it on. I didnt get to drive it N/A with the changes but it certainly changed throttle responce.

[Coroncho80]

you cant let the b20a turbo fail, rob... too many trash talkers are expected to go down in flames against that car...


Love the Drama! :lol:

[SteveDX89]

I don't know if I mentioned it but I had so much wheel hop that the cig lighter poped out on one of the launches.


Damn, that's crazy. Maybe running some stiffer springs up front might help.

My track day is coming in the next 2 1/2 months. :) Finally, after having it postponed several times.

[Oldblueaccord]

Hehe the pictures might not work anymore.

Anyway this was more a test drive than anything else.

I will see with my A/F meter how the Lude ECU controls the fuel but this is definetly one of the first things to change with the intake manifold. The good thing is.... I got those parts in the basement right now... waiting for my car to get out of storage ..... in 2 weeks :D


The rear and side mounts ahde eurethane in them while the front mount is the Original mount that came with the car. I'm sure it's owrn out and needs to be replaced. The torque rod bushings are also the Honda Originals (16 years old). Those will need to be replaced to reduce wheel hop.

I don't know if I mentioned it but I had so much wheel hop that the cig lighter poped out on one of the launches.

Anyway, I know I can lower this by at least 1 second.... this is where the fun begins :D


Change those rod bushing or go solid. I still cant believe how much a differance my car handles with the new ones.

Try to make the rear stiff as possible also by those rubbers or maybe rig up somekinda solid deal to tighten it up as best you can. you can put water clamps on the shock rod an see how much suspension travel your getting and try to wittle it down.

mid fifteens is great !! I think really. My car on the gtech runs 17.0 at 89 mph so you have knocked of a lotta time.

To add upping the compresion helps but its only about 3% per point and there is a point of dimishing returns. So if you went from 11.0 to 15.0 your not going to see a %12 increase.


wp