Realistically how much....

[Bryan]

How much power can you get out of our stock engines if they were EFI without doing a swap with the aftermarket that we have. Forget Nitrous and forget Turbo just straight hp. How much have people gotten out of them. :sadwave: .

[maka_RTH]

i honestly don't know.., but hopefully i'll know by spring ;)

[nswst8]

From Bottom end to Top end there are alot of options. What do you want and the big question is "HOW MUCH ARE YOU WILLING TO SPEND"
Crank, pistons, rods, Cam, valves, Throttle Body and intake.
I believe that there is enough to keep anyone happy.

[TheSummoner101]

u mean how much hp does a base engine have? i think its 110hp efi and 98hp carb'd

not shure about those numbaerz but some1 might...sorry if i didn't understand your question.

[keruhas184]

no.. i think the question is how much power can you get out of a naturally aspirated engine with all the mods possible? Can you push it to 200hp with enough $$?

[shepherd79]

I believe there was a guy by the name KMS and he has race A20 motor that was making something like 250 or 350 can't remember. to get that high numbers you will need to spend a lot of money.

[maka_RTH]

i'm hoping to get close to 200hp myself. but whatever i get i'm sure i'll be happy. i'm looking into getting a crank, i'm getting rods/pistons(highest compression i can get), p&p head and AEBS intake manifold, port match intake manifold, AEM fuel rail, and a bunch of other goodies in there. my vbgarage has most of what i intend to do, and as soon as i get around to finishing my webpage, that'll have everything plus some pics of the process.

['A20A3']

Shiiiiiit. 200? Okay,

Rods, Pistons, Valves, Springs, and Retainers, Cam, Port & Polish the Intake Manifold and the Head, Headers, Test Pipe, Bore out the Throttle Body, Ignition, CAI or Ram Air, Fuel Injectors...

There's gotta be more that 80 there. I'd say at least 140, plus if you do weight reduction....shiiiittt. When I start making that real money the sky is the limit.

[guaynabo89]

How much power can you get out of our stock engines if they were EFI without doing a swap with the aftermarket that we have. Forget Nitrous and forget Turbo just straight hp. How much have people gotten out of them. :sadwave: .

Well....

About 5-6 years ago I got 123whp out of a 87 lxi. Mods at the time were a p&p head tb and bolt ons cai/h/ex. The block was rebuilt but only to stock specs with no special parts.

Actually not bad considering it was rolling on 17"wheels runnig 205/45 rubber.

Ive done many an upgrade since then so hopefully I'll push more than 150whp at the wheels on 17's.


Oh and when I dynoed the car it still had the stock cam in the head. Which is where you get the most power out of an N/a engine.

[A20A1]

I think it was more like 250-300, but he had really high compression

[Justin86]

Well our openloop guys have gotten 140whp, and are looking to make more with there new set up, and still pass cali emissions.

[MarioBurke]

Well....




...Oh and when I dynoed the car it still had the stock cam in the head. Which is where you get the most power out of an N/a engine.

True...i agree

but i think Cams WITH adjustable cam gears is where the power increase is. cam will give you a big HP increase, but the cam gear allows you to tune the cam, without advancing the timing to get the full potential from the cam.

another way would be to Have the head milled down to raise compression. Then buy some of the Diamond Pistons and the Eagle rods or whatever they are. But that will only go so far if your still spinning that heavy ass stock flywheel. Fidanza (12lb) or the Aasco (8lb-11lb) aluminum flywheels will help to open up potential power.

Vavles, springs and retainers...I dont know. I could have sworn I remember someone saying that the stock internals on the a20 could handle a rev happy 10k. sure its a heavy motor but it stands up to most test, where the swapped motors tend to break. I am probably wrong though??

[mykwikcoupe]

just to throw this up there but when people go with the lightest rotational masses in the drivtrain they find that they lose alot of torque off the line. If it where me id keep the rotaional masses stock in weight and try to get the recipricating masses as low as possible so it revs like a ducati on crack. im rebiulding my thundertbird right now and am going through this with my friend. Keep in mind the torque loses youll see is through kinetic energy at start only. after that its all about revs. just my 2 cents worth 1

[MarioBurke]

just to throw this up there but when people go with the lightest rotational masses in the drivtrain they find that they lose alot of torque off the line. If it where me id keep the rotaional masses stock in weight and try to get the recipricating masses as low as possible so it revs like a ducati on crack. im rebiulding my thundertbird right now and am going through this with my friend. Keep in mind the torque loses youll see is through kinetic energy at start only. after that its all about revs. just my 2 cents worth 1

I also agree with that Myk. You do lose torque because the flywheels rotational weight isnt there. BUT, i must, in my time with the flywheel I have found a couple interesting points. off the line, you do not have to much extra effort forth to launch off the line. witha stock flywheel launching at 3 - 3.5 k will break traction. when I launch its at 3.9 - 4.3. While a stock flywheel will break traction and the rotational mass will keep the wheels spinning until you regain traction the aluminum wheel causes revs to drop faster until traction is regained. once traction is regained rpms can be brought up quicker because the motor has less weight to turn freeing up power. the biggest down side i feel is trying break traction into 2nd and 3rd.

ya know what im talking about!! you feel pretty bad ass when your car can lay scratch in 2nd and 3rd. but with the light flywheel and no rotational mass its very difficult.

i bet if the motor were balanced and you had a light weight flywheel it would be insane crazy revs.

[Vanilla Sky]

i think we could see 300 crank out of an a20... just not on our budget...

i wanna get about 200 crank out of it without many aftermarket parts... i wanna build a junkyard racer out of my car... destroking might be a good option, along with a better valve train, we could rev to like 8500 without spending $50,000 on the motor

[Strugglebucket]

ya know what im talking about!! you feel pretty bad ass when your car can lay scratch in 2nd and 3rd. but with the light flywheel and no rotational mass its very difficult.
i think...
that integra gears with a lightweight flywheel is good :cool:

[maka_RTH]

i think...
that integra gears with a lightweight flywheel is good :cool:

exactly what i'm going to have ;)

[Strugglebucket]

me too! hehe

[MarioBurke]

I betcha I get mine first!! biatch!!


i think we could see 300 crank out of an a20... just not on our budget...

i wanna get about 200 crank out of it without many aftermarket parts... i wanna build a junkyard racer out of my car... destroking might be a good option, along with a better valve train, we could rev to like 8500 without spending $50,000 on the motor


Im just getting into engines...can you explained Destroking? sorry if thats a dumb Q?

[maka_RTH]

if i understand correctly, the stroke is how far the piston as to travel. the longer the stroke, the more torque, and the shorter the stroke, the higher rpms you can get(reliably). i guess our cars have a longer than average stroke, hence the torque, but not quite a lot of ponies. theoretical, shorten the stroke, get higher rpms, more horsies.

[Vanilla Sky]

shorten the stroke, get higher rpms, more horsies

EXACTLY...

destroke, shave the head, and go with even higher compression pistons... that really is a good way to get a lot of power, but you'd have one hell of a screamer engine

[MarioBurke]

EXECELLENT

i guess that is what i meant early when I said Milling the head and getting some Diamond pistons and eagle rods. but i didnt know there was a term for it

so how much you would have shaved. and if in theory that it does increase how how the engine will rev, how do you pass the rev limiter in the 88-89 ECU?

[Vanilla Sky]

well, destroking also requires reducing the stroke...

[MarioBurke]

ok so then im lost again. how do you shortenthe stroke?

[Vanilla Sky]

you change the crankshaft

[MarioBurke]

from which car?

[Justin86]

The A18 out of the 2G accords and I belive the rods also. ;)

[MarioBurke]

this quite interesting. I do have access to these cars!!

[MarioBurke]

ok what about Crankshaft grinds? as apposed to a swapping the crankshaft with a second gen. or possibly a crank shaft grind using the 2nd gen rods? is this possible?

[Vanilla Sky]

i believe the a18 has the same stroke as the a20, just a smaller bore... from what i hear, though, the a16 has a shorter stroke, and looks to be a drop in for the a20...

remember, though, that destroking drops your low end like nothing else... but you easily make it up on the top end...

i've been toying with the idea of this hybrid for a while, and i believe it is carotman that brought it up...

[MarioBurke]

ok so when you say its a drop in? do you mean that the crank shafts will swap out? no problem. If you loose low end power, theoretically couldnt you make it up with the Teg tranny hybrid as well. this is really interesting me because i have a spare engine to work with on the weekends when I go back to my moms house.

[Vanilla Sky]

yes and yes... i've never tried it myself, so i'd like to get an a16 imported and see... you can get one shipped to your door for about $400, in running condition

[MarioBurke]

the a16 comes from which car now?

[night]

seems like some serious overkill to me. torque is what these motors have going for them, and the top side hp can be obtained.
have the full crank assembly balanced and i'll promise its good to 7000. dont be trying for the vtec 8k+, it just isnt necessary. with headwork, cam and higher cr, the top end will take care of itself.
and i would strongly suggest finding some lighter valves, retainers and stronger springs.

[Vanilla Sky]

overseas ludes and accords...

[A20A1]

A16 was in the accord, it had a carb and was manual choke, I dunno if there was an efi version

[MarioBurke]

well I was talking with some other people about the matter and they passed along a few ideas. so I rethinking. One suggestion was to get a crank shaft grind. I dont know exactly the benefits, but from what I have heard it is a tremendous difference. keeping the rods for the longer stroke so I keep the low end torque and then just going to maybe a 11:1 piston. that with the teg tranny should produce a nice streetable car. I do have a couple motors lying around so it wouldnt be a hassle to pull one apart and send it to the shop.

any thoughts on this idea?

actually i gotta rethink this option too. I am wondering how it will effect emissions output?

[night]

emissions is stupid.
if the car is tuned and running right the emissions are likely to be better than they are now.

[MarioBurke]

well I am just wondering because when you have a cam shaft grind or a colt cam i know the car wont keep a steady idle. that is a big part of the emissions process. I wonder if having the crank shaft grind would do the same? it would be a pain in the ass but it looks like I might have to have one more for smog purpose and then swap in the other motor when its play time...

[keruhas184]

get a hookup... its as easy as that. If you don't know anyone, ask your friends around, and they will know a guy.

[maka_RTH]

that's pretty much the same route i'm going. i'm prolly gonna keep the stock crank. although i am looking to see if i can get a lightened one from scat.

[night]

ya i was gonna mention that earlier, but wanted to keep it simple.

i dont remember whats out there for these motors, but if you want a good cam, u need a new blank or at least a welded. regrinds are very limited.

and ya, with these motors cams are easy as hell to change, and having a stock to swap in is no big deal. whatever you use to tune the car should be easy enough to tune a stock cam at the same time for testing once a year.

[Busted_Blue]

Well our openloop guys have gotten 140whp, and are looking to make more with there new set up, and still pass cali emissions.

I believe they have givin up on that project..

Openloop motorsports is no longer a open shop. I think they are only doing appointment only sets now.

[MarioBurke]

um yeah , its NOT that easy. I worked at a body shop for a year and some months. we were connected with every other automotive facility in the area. Ca is just too strict and no one is willing to lose their license cause they passed come punk kids honda. besides I i just moved away from there anywhere. I dont know anyone here

[Vanilla Sky]

man... why can't cali just hook you up to a sniffer and let that be it? who cares if all of the equipment is there? as long as the motor isn't putting out "bad" emissions, it should be passed, simple as that...

[mykwikcoupe]

thats the way it is up here in washington. if you can get it to pass under the regs of the car being tested your good. We dont even have the under the hood inspection. Cool huh. We can register out of justiction so you dont ever have to take a smog test. you cant do that?

[Vanilla Sky]

see? that's a good way to keep offenders off the roads, but still give rights to everybody that drives a car...

[A20A1]

Who said colt cams wont hold a steady idle...

[maka_RTH]

Who said colt cams wont hold a steady idle...
yah, i've never had problems with the idle with my colt cam(on two different cars too).

[MarioBurke]

yah, i've never had problems with the idle with my colt cam(on two different cars too).


Really??! then this is really exciting news. I wonder if maybe it just had something to do with the fact that the cams had a regrind? I dunno why it would make a difference though. isnt it the same as what Colt Cam does? if I remember correctly the two cam shafts I had the regrind done too, were to 271-2 and were sold to Ts87lx and 30070088lxi. both of them seem to kinda have a loopy idle. ts87lx is worse cause his is carbed though.