Lope, Misfire - after timing belt, head work

[[email protected]]

Background - I had some head work done 10K ago and had the timing belt replaced. I remember the symptoms of the car before it went to the shop; wouldn't run, like the timing belt was broken, but it turns out the cam or some part of it came loose. So, I'm not sure if the head was removed. Until recently, the lope/misfire was bearable, but it never seemed to have been a problem before I had the work done. I basically let the car sit for a year after the work was done, but it did have a noticeable lope after the work.
Currently, the car runs with sort of a lope (at idle), which turns into a misfire when driving at any rpm. It's very noticeable when the car isn't under any load, say 2-2.5K with the gas barely pressed. It's like a sp :ugh: utter, for example when the car isn't getting fuel. If you stomp the gas, that goes away, but then there's the miss with increased fuel... Obviously no one (not me anyway) likes to drive either full throttle or no throttle all the time, much less have a miss when accelerating.
To rememdy the problem, I've tried/replaced the following: plugs (inc .39 & .44 gap), wires, cap/rotor, pcv valve, main fuel filter, vacuum removal mod (stage 4), valve clearance check, and several timing settings. The vac removal mod and plug wires seemed to help a little.
Other things I've read point to leaking intake gasket, head gasket, bad distributor, coil, or ignitor. I've wondered if the guy just set the timing belt off one notch. Not sure if the car would even run though if that were the case. Anyway, I'd really appreciate the help. I want this car to drive like I know it can and to make it an enjoyable experience again.

[Vanilla Sky]

are you sure the timing belt isn't installed one notch off? that would cause your problems...

[Oldblueaccord]

Have you checked the valve adjustment. If you had a cam problem it might be bad again or not adjusted properly. Sounds like a valve is open. Take the valve cover off and see whats going on in there.

You can run a car a tooth off it will just be weak on power. I had mine 2 or three teeth off last month and it would run. Wouldnt climb the hill thats my driveway but it run. I had an oil leak on the front of the car and I have done the timing belt about 10 times in the last 2 months working on it.


wp

[[email protected]]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, about the t-belt being off one notch. It still has pretty good power (much more after vac removal), but it seems to be the most obvious thing if that's all the guy did when he replaced the timing belt & fixed the loose camshaft. I did check the valve clearances and they were all a little open: for the exhaust, like .11-.13 and the intake was around .8-.10. I set them all to .11 and .7 respectively to factory defaults. I'll have time this weekend to check the timing belt and I can adjust it if needed. Is there an easy way to clean all the oil off of my flywheel to check the timing mark? I had (and have again) a leaky valve cover gasket and there is no plug for the timing mark hole on the front of the engine. I assume the camshaft pulley was not removed, but who knows. If that's the case I guess I could try to move the belt forward/back a notch and see what happens. How long will it run with the water pump pulley off? lol Just kidding.

[Strugglebucket]

so have you been able to see the timing marks when making adjustments? to clean them just turn the engine manually to near TDC and use a q-tip with some solvent. i don't think that oil leaking from the valve cover would make it onto the flywheel. more likely that it's getting thrown up from a leaking rear seal.

when you've checked ignition timing were you able to get it to the correct range? since you're carbed you should be around 15deg WITH the vacuum advance connected to the distributor. if your timing belt was off a tooth you probably wouldn't be able to get the timing right even with the distributor turned all the way. also, is the timing steady or does it ever jump around? if it's jumping around your distributor could be bad. check the coil and the ignitor too if you have a multi-tester.

[[email protected]]

I used the TDC mark on the cam pulley when setting the valve clearances. I guess I can set that first, then look for the mark on the flywheel. I haven't actually peered down into the hole to check the flywheel yet, but if it's as nasty as the front of my engine it will be bad lol. You scare me when you say leaking rear seal. Hopefully that won't be a major prob in the future.
I'm not using vac advance on the timing. I removed basically all of my vac hoses with the carb mod. The timing is pretty steady. Haven't checked the coil or ignitor yet. I'll have to look it up again on how to do that. Prob should have been done before, but I have kept thinking it's got to be the timing belt placement.

[DanG86LX]

[email protected]>> ..To remedy the problem, ..vacuum removal mod (stage 4)
..I'm not using vac advance on the timing..

U kind of contradict ur-self above. Are u using Vacuum line #2 to ur dizzy ?
Vacuum removal mod (stage 4) says clearly to KEEP it.
Also only rotor @ cap is not enough, take ur dizzy apart and clean it. Both vacuum advance AND centrifugal advance should be checked.
Here are some old post:Adjusting the timing (http://3geez.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=661)

[[email protected]]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I removed a little more than what was in the stage 4, so there is no vac from the dist. I'll try cleaning the dist this weekend after I check the cylinder/cam timing marks. Is there anything else I need to know before I pull and clean it? Anything else I should check while I'm in there?

[Oldblueaccord]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I removed a little more than what was in the stage 4, so there is no vac from the dist. I'll try cleaning the dist this weekend after I check the cylinder/cam timing marks. Is there anything else I need to know before I pull and clean it? Anything else I should check while I'm in there?


Sounds like you have no spark advance at your distributor. When you mash the gas the distributor advances the spark lead a little to smooth out the transition. I really think you gonna need that.


wp

[[email protected]]

I could reattach if necessary. Would it be possible to simply advance the timing a little? Wouldn't that accomplish the same thing? The lope/misfire/sputter existed before any changes to the car, minus the work done several years ago. I haven't noticed any negative effects since vac removal+ other than removing the choke, which I feel was a mistake. It would be nice to idle and not have to worry about a stall during the first two minutes of driving. Otherwise, there was definitely a performance increase whether it was done exactly as stated in the stage 4 diag. I'll try to check (and set?) the timing (cyl/cam) tonight if I have time. I want to get that out of the way first. Then maybe the coil, ignitor, and last dist cleaning. Thanks for all the input so far.

[A20A1]

Yeah check youir flywheel and cam gear allignment... if your cam gear was at TDC and you set the clearances it could be off if the Flywheel and cam gear were not both at TDC for Cyl 1.

Also you need that vacuum advance... it's okay to disable #25 cause that is normally disable once the motor is warm. but #2 is always connected directly to manifold vacuum from the distributor. Please tell me you kept #14 and the ABC's :D

[A20A1]

I could reattach if necessary. Would it be possible to simply advance the timing a little? Wouldn't that accomplish the same thing? ...

No, physically turning the distributor will advance the timing but it will do so for the entire RMP range. The vacuum advance is only for the lower RPMs where vacuum from the manifold is high.

[A20A1]

If you want to run richer idle mixture diable "B" on the air jet controller
If you want a richer throttle mix then disable "A" or "C"
Plug the unused port on the carb. and also the unused lettered vacuum line from the Air jet controller.


BELOW IS STAGE 4 VACUUM REMOVAL MODIFICATIONS
* Hard Core Stock Carburation

IF YOU WANT TO RUN THE BARE MINIMUM, HERE ARE THE COMPONENTS YOU KEEP:

- #2 VACUUM ADVANCE FROM DISTRIBUTOR CONNECTED TO THE REAR INTAKE MANIFOLD VACUUM PORT.

- #14 POWERVALVE FROM CARBURETOR CONNECTED TO THE REAR INTAKE MANIFOLD VACUUM PORT.

- ( AJC ) AIR JET CONTROLLER A,B,C CONNECTED TO CARBURETOR VACUUM PORTS.

HERE ARE COMPONENTS YOU REMOVE:
- CRUISE CONTROLL
- SECONDARY DIAPHRAGM
- A/C IDLE BOOST SOLENOID
- A/C IDLE BOOST DIAPHRAGM
- CHOKE PLATE
- THERMOVAVLE
- CHOKE OPENER / PULLER
- FAST IDLE UNLOADER
- IDLE DIAPHRAGM
- VACUUM CHECK VALVE
- BLACK BOX
- FLOAT BOWL VENT
- EGR
- AIR SUCTION VALVE

- CONVERT TO MECHANICAL SECONDARY
* IDLE WILL NOW NEED TO BE SET BY THE THROTTLE STOP SCREW SINCE THE IDLE DIAPHRAGM IS REMOVED, MAKE SURE THE CAR IS FULLY WARM BEFORE ADJUSTING THE IDLE.

[[email protected]]

Nope, didn't keep 14 or 2 or the Air Jet Controller. I still have all the parts though so I can reattach if necessary. What are the consequences of removing each of them? Maybe the car was running so poorly beforehand that I didn't notice the negative effects. The choke is mangled up, but I could bend it back to form. I'd have to use screws though since there were rivets connecting it.
Didn't have a chance to check the cam/cyl timing today since I had to work a double, network admin shizat. Picked the wrong field!! ...or company? Does the boost for #2 provide that much assistance to the distributor, that say, +5 degrees couldn't improve? I realize it's not the same, but... Sorry for all the ?'s. I was going to sell this car, then decided to keep it to work on, race around. I don't plan to race per say, but it's fun to drive and I'm learning a lot working on it. If I get it running well I want to do suspension and tires. Then, later maybe gut, paint, etc. I need new tires anyway, but I hate to spend the money if I can't get it running right.

[Oldblueaccord]

"It would be nice to idle and not have to worry about a stall during the first two minutes of driving."

So this only happens when the car is cold or the first few minutes of driving?

The its cuz your not using a choke. A choke is used when the car is cold to "richen" the fuel mixture hence by lessening the air going into the carb. It just stays on until the car is up to temp and can take the base mixtures.


wp

[A20A1]

#14 is for the powervalve... it holds up the plunger inside the carburetor to keep the powervalve closed while at idle and low throttle... then as you move up towards Wide open throttle the pluger falls and opens the powervalve to richen the fuel mixture.

Honetsly the effects of richening the fuel mixture may be okay now with the weak stock pump...
but the same performance if not better can be obtained with a fairly unmodified carb with a upgraded pump and or regulator... it will run much smoother and give more power.

What I put in the diagram was for those who wanted the least amont of vacuum lines but still have good gas milage and performance...

I did say in the diagram that the air jet controller could be removed and listed what I interpreted to be the effects.

But #2 is the one thing you always should have, even with a weber conversion.

You can run without #14 but you should keep it if you find you are to rich at idle and off idle. Too rich a mixture can decrease power... but untill you run some tests you might not notice it.

I sure hope you kept your PCV valve and Brake booster.

I know you may be having fun removing everything but I've been there and done that. it really isn't worth it once you make the nescesary upgrades to the fuel system.

[A20A1]

"It would be nice to idle and not have to worry about a stall during the first two minutes of driving."

So this only happens when the car is cold or the first few minutes of driving?

The its cuz your not using a choke. A choke is used when the car is cold to "richen" the fuel mixture hence by lessening the air going into the carb. It just stays on until the car is up to temp and can take the base mixtures.


wp


He did the vacuum removal mod, part of the mods included getting rid of the choke but some people forget that I live in Hawaii so it's never so cold that it requires cold start or pre heater equiptment.
The sad thing is after a few members bitched for a diagram that keeps the choke, some people still remove the choke anyways and then end up complaining. Now I have warnings posted but no one reads those either.
I think the allure of performance topples better judgement.

[[email protected]]

Oh no, I'm not complaining about the choke. I knew how long it took to warm up before I did the mod, and the warnings were clearly stated. I'm just a little foolish and, yes, eager for performance. Personally, I can accept small problems with the car, but I never would have attempted or would have been much more careful had this been my only car. LOL, to be honest, I didn't expect it to crank!! But, it did and it drives like it did before, but faster, and that is what I wanted. I probably will hook up #14 if I didn't reattach it already and #2 is no problem either. Of course I did keep the brake booster b/c I like to be able to stop!! lol. I already replaced a brake line which leaked a cup of fluid a day, and I actually drove like that for a few weeks. Hey, the E brake still works and the other caliper. Ok, not everyone is this foolish thank god. I know the limits of the car when I'm driving to be safe. You know, right now I'm only using 3 wheels... Ok, just kidding. : )

Hawaii? Must be nice... It's 30 degrees here!! : (

[[email protected]]

Great news!! The car is running much better. I checked the flywheel/cam timing marks and they were dead on, so that leaves the spark. I cranked the distributor around to advance the timing and it is MUCH smoother at idle and through gears like a normal car, lol. Now, the only prob is pinging, which (yes..) can come from advancing the timing, but can come from cheap fuel as well. It was pinging very slightly before I set it today, but it was also running like shite then too; ie, the original reason for this post. Maybe as A20A1 said it can be the #2 vac hose? Rechecking the valve clearances? Replacing the valve springs? Fuel? Maybe a combination of all these. If this is a basic maintenance issue for a car w/ 225K please end my suffering. I'll start looking for other threads and do a little more research but I'm content that the main problem was the timing.
A20A1, I'll attach the #2 vac line this weekend, check the coil, valve clearances, and see if my springs are worn out. I like cheap fixes. In the meantime I'll stay off the gas at low rpm to avoid warping my valves. Thanks for the input. Btw, would there be any performance loss by reattaching the choke? Not that I particularly want to take the trouble to put it back on... I went for broke, but I knew before hand I could live with the results. I never directed the "it would be nice" toward anyone. Yes, I chose to do it so I take full responsiblity. Anyone performing a mod should accept the disclaimer from the start. Nice mod btw.

[Oldblueaccord]

Great !! Glad its running good.

I dont think the choke is hurting your performance. That just helps air flow and really only on the hottest race cars. You can add it back and use a cable to actuate it to get you started. Run it up to your dash. Thats how they had em in the old days. Just remember to push it off when the car warms up.

Could try the next octane gas I run 89 myself I know its expensive.


I read up on the vacuum advance since I never have had a carbed 3gen Accord. I'm think that the advance plate is "on" unless it sees vacuum,oppsite to domestic car, so that might be were your getting to much advance at like part throttle ATM.

wp

[[email protected]]

I see you're from TN. I'm in Huntsville. I don't go up that way much except for the IRL race in Nashville/Lebanon the last two years. Fun stuff. I prefer F1. Last 2-3 seasons have sucked though since MS is no longer challenged, like Mika used to. Anyway... Have just a sec before I go out.
I did consider hardwiring/cabling a choke. Might still do that. About the advance, I'm gonna try to figure it out tomorrow. I won't have new fuel (good stuff, 93) until I can finish this tank. Sometimes it sucks to get 30mpg, lol. I DID notice a slight power loss since advancing the timing, so I think I missed a certain balance. Next steps: carb vac advance, fuel, possible fuel pressure check. Can advanced auto do this? Trying to remember, are there two fuel pumps or just the internal? Thanks!

[[email protected]]

Wahoo!! The sputter, lope problem is 95% gone, the pinging I got from advancing the timing is minimal now, and the car is running much faster after the vac mod. Advancing the timing by 15-20 degrees helped get rid of the lope. The pinging seemed to go away (95%) when the timing was advanced to 15+ and the #2 vac advance was reattached to the rear intake port. I rechecked the A/F mixture after all this and it is the best combination. Perfect settings. I'm also going to try colder plugs and higher octane to avoid detonation. Anyway, it's running much, much better. Thanks for all the help.
Oh, and even with the choke removed, now there is much better response while the engine is cold. Guess tweaking here and there can either really overshadow once useful components or prove they weren't really necessary after all. Cool.

[Oldblueaccord]

Cool

Thanks for reporting back. Yep I'm in Knoxville lived here about 10 years or so. I have a house on the west side of town.

wp

[[email protected]]

I researched this prob like a dog and finally solved the mystery. The main source of my problem was leaking intake manifold gasket. Yes, the mechanic apparently didn't do his job when he worked on the car and did not replace the ORIGINAL gasket. It was a mess. Put a new one on yesterday and it purrs like a kitten. THAT is the way my car used to run. Now it runs even better! :alc:

[Oldblueaccord]

I researched this prob like a dog and finally solved the mystery. The main source of my problem was leaking intake manifold gasket. Yes, the mechanic apparently didn't do his job when he worked on the car and did not replace the ORIGINAL gasket. It was a mess. Put a new one on yesterday and it purrs like a kitten. THAT is the way my car used to run. Now it runs even better! :alc:


Cool glad its flying!





wp