View Full Version : Hmm... a little more work in the head.
A20A1
08-01-2002, 12:54 AM
I was wondering about the camshaft and the way the rockers follow the cam lobe... should or can we equipt our cars with a roller rocker... would this be a benifit to those of us with reground camshafts.... I mean all the metal that was ground off... the cam won't sit right with the rocker 100% of the time like it used to with the stock cam... will it?
not sure what materials we would need or how we would start to make such things... but 12 vlaves means 12 rockers... it shouldn't be too expensive :)
ive got prototypes but there not for sale. the intent was to get rid of the lash pad and get a roller cam profile.
MoonScryer
08-02-2002, 04:26 PM
Is there anyway to get these into production Sean? I'm interested.
yeah an order of 10 sets at $500 a set not including the cam.
MoonScryer
08-03-2002, 09:40 PM
Ow :(
Oh well, I think the the hi-po 11:1 compression idea is slipping further away...
if i had the money to build a 1000 sets thecost would go down to 150 a set. get what im saying these were done as a favor.
PhydeauX
08-08-2002, 06:58 AM
We need to get a member with good ties to a fabrication shop ;)
andy
1988starter
08-08-2002, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by PhydeauX
We need to get a member with good ties to a fabrication shop ;)
andy
A-men brother
rallyeNate
10-08-2002, 05:36 PM
the cam will sit fine with the regrind ALL THE TIME, that is why you adjust you your valves. the reason you switch to a roller cam is for less friction and the a slower ramp accleration, bascial the valve is open at max lift longer.
A20A1
10-08-2002, 08:18 PM
yeah so wouldn't the decreased friction help the engine rev faster? maybe minute on a SOHC motor as compared to a DOHC... but every bit helps.
yeah but running out your lash screws will actually screw the valve train geometry up. ive been working on the problem. seems the easiest way to deal with it is to make thicker lash pads. just not sure of the hardness yet. should cost about 35-40 a set.just like using longer pushrods on a v8.
rallyeNate
10-09-2002, 10:08 AM
what the hell are you talking about? if you add a thicker pad to the cam side of the follower, isn't that the same as turning the screw on the cam follower (valve side), yes!
89lxi95zx7
10-09-2002, 11:06 AM
i need some head
no becuase if you think about it the rocker is not staying true to its geomtry. the rocker tips move away form the center of the valve tip the further down the screw is. the more reduce the cam base cirle is the worse the problem becomes. so they answer to the problem is to create a few cam blanks with reduced base cicrles)and make thicker lash pad to bring the rocker arm geometery back into spec. trust me dude ive been down this road before.
AZmike
10-09-2002, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by A20A1
yeah so wouldn't the decreased friction help the engine rev faster? maybe minute on a SOHC motor as compared to a DOHC... but every bit helps.
The best thing about roller followers is that you can run stiffer valve springs without wearing anything out too fast (because of the friction-reducing design). The stiffer springs will let you spin the engine faster without followers slapping the cam. Since horsepower is torque*rpm (and some constant to get the units to turn out right), the faster your engine can turn and continue producing torque, the more hp you have.
well that great and all but roller cams did not come about becuase of reduced frction. they came about becuase roller cams can run a faster lobe ramp then a flat tappet. and thanx to this you can lift the valve higher for lonegr within a given amount of duration. the accord motor doesnt really need a roller lifter/rocker. the pad design works quiet well. when making the new lash pads ill see if i can make the radiuos a bit sharper to allow for more lift under the duration curve.
rallyeNate
10-09-2002, 09:41 PM
are you sure your valve train isnt just ragged out? when they do a regrind, they DONT grind the cam juronal. do your adjuster screws not set level at base circle? unless you put a hing on valve side of the follower it will never, always sit level.
ralley nate i dont know how long youve been around but this is my 8th accord motor. i think i have just a smidgen of an idea of what im doing. i also build custom marine engines and other type of High HP applications all the time. trust me even though the lash adjuster can take up the slack its still messes with the valvetrian gemomtry. by reducing the base circle it make the rocker arm thurst the valve off to an angle in stead of linear up and down motion. it will wear ou the guides if left uncorected and will cost you in terms of valve train harmonics and and overall lift and duration delivered to the valve.
rallyeNate
10-10-2002, 05:45 PM
once again you are not taking all things in cosideration, need i remind you about your OPPS on thridgen.
since the cam follower is hinged along a rail off to the side of the camshaft, the follower is always moving in a circular movement. unless you place a pivit point on the valve side of the follwer, it will never sit flat on the valve. the easiest thing to do would be to take off the adjuster screw and tig a flat peice of medal on to it, that way there would always be a large flat surface area on the valve tip.
i hope your were not trying to befuddle me with a technical words and concept that you thought were over my head.
A20A1
10-10-2002, 06:05 PM
guys calm down please...
anyone with a cad drawing to put things to rest?
well it fairly obvious that even though you have a notion that the rocker arm will travel in a circular motion its flawed. the arm is a lever. my issue is not so much with harmonics. as it is with valve guide wear. even if you were to say add to the tip of the vale the issue is that the rocker arm is no longer perpendical to the vavle. this will destroy the vavlue guide if left unchecked. it has a fairly menial affect on lift but it does affect the durtion tent. you should go do some reading on valve trian geometry.
rallyeNate
10-10-2002, 10:48 PM
when the cam is stock, the rocker doesnt push completely perpendicual to the valve. YOU NEED A POINT OF PIVOT ON THE VALVE SIDE. it is geometrically impossable other wise. i didnt say add to the tip, but rather to put a flat plate or ever a sight up curve to that plate on the end of the adjuster screw and that would solve your problem.
did you ever build that cfm meter after the man from thridgen set you stright?
A20A1
10-11-2002, 01:13 PM
What about adjusting rocker ratios?
I was reading a VW Bug racing magazine and it had different ratio.s of rockers...
rallyeNate
10-11-2002, 04:42 PM
very commonly done on cam-in-block design engines. on the push rod engine you can just buy new rocker arms, you would have to buy new rockers with a greater ratio. Do you know some that makes them?
exscuse me no body from thrigen set me striaght. i think your a nuisacne.you come on here asking me questions that with your level of intellegence you should be able to answer on your own. ive have given you good sound advice now on numreous occasions. i have replied to your emails. ive sent you links and even wasted time on AIM talking to you. yet again ive been here for count em 3yrs. ive had sevral very fast and streetable engines. ive broken valvetrians and ive worn guides thru. you still miss the larger point. the enginers designed the valve train to behave in a specific manner. my whole point is simply to retore valve train geometeyr. ooh and would you like to see a 3inch card maf ?? flowing 700cfm. oh and runnign 128 blm's and INT. the maf is a air speed meter. thats it. you always miss the obvious. stop being obnoxious and for once be productive. stop asking questions. start answering a few. have you ever seen how severly a cam base circle is reduced in a regrind ????
as for the different ratio rockers. yes it possable. but its not easy. there are lots of valve train issues that need to be gone over. first of all is vavle spring coil binding. with only a moderate gian in lift the springs are pretty close to maxed. also there is the issue of moving the pivot of the rocker arm to icnrease decrease the ratios. there isnt a really elegant solution just laying around and as i have limited funds i cant afford to build any prototypes. and then there are other issues like changing the springs rate to accomodate the higher lifts and keeping the egnine out of valve float.
i wish there was a bolt on part but there isnt. the good news however is that the stock rocker arms perform quite well. just need to adress the lash pad issue and then bigger more aggresive cams will be easly done. got alot of homework to do. ill get back to this issue sometime off in the futer. i am thinkg that a simpel spacer for the las pad should be enough. i just have to work out the various cam base circle redutions to pad thickness. not a one day job but possiable.
and when they regrind the cam they reduce the base circle not regrind the lobe thats how you get the increase in lift and duration. give racer brown a call and see what they have to say ???
rallyeNate
10-14-2002, 10:33 PM
Did I strike a never? “Excuse me no body from thrigen set me straight”, right they just put in your place and told you how to complete your project correctly. Ya nobody, nobody like 32v_DOHC and Rbob. Your right (<-that should help your ego!) you have spent time talking to me on AIM and you did send me a link (so what if I already had it) and you gave an answer to my questions. But seriously, do you think I really need your help? The only reason I was asking you those questions I did was to see if you had an easier way of doing the same project, which you didn’t. You say that you have worn thru valve guilds and broken valve stems, think about what you have just said. Maybe you don’t known as much as you think you known. I missed the larger point, why don’t you spend less time trying to flex and belittle do a bit better job of explaining something or better yet, read book on the subject. Where have you been for 3yrs, here on 3geez, building engines, working on engines? If you have been working with engines for just 3yrs, you have a lot of catching up to do; great you’ve been on 3geez 3yrs (belittling people for 3yrs). If you want someone to just agree with you, then just say so. You say I have missed the obvious, maybe I have maybe I haven’t, or maybe you need to read up on the subject. They regrind the base circle not the lobe, well YA, if they regrind the lobe it will become smaller. If they are doing anything to the lobe they are harding and facing. Ya known what, they also don’t regrind? That is the journal, so the regrind will sit in the engine just as the stock cam would. No cam follower will ever sit perfectly flat on the valve even stock it is just geometrically impossible (under current design). If you want the follower to sit perfectly flat, you need a pivot point on the valve side. As far as answering question, I have, I will and I do. I do answer question; I don’t think I need to answer every question. Why would I answer a question that has been answered already, has been beaten to death, or has been ask several times over? There have been several people that have PM me and also there is a member that has me working on his car and comes to me for modification advise. Maybe you need to spend less time on the message board trying to flex and more time learning.
A20A1
10-14-2002, 11:53 PM
I just saw an ad for roller rockers... it actually says reduces friction for 25 extra HP. I doubt such a gain is possible for our cars, but friction is a selling point for the rollers... at least in that ad.
Jerren
10-15-2002, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by funstick
"ive broken valvetrians and ive worn guides thru"
is that a good thing???:lol
ok man now im annoyed. first of all ive built sevral not 1 not 2 but sevral now 8 motors. ive borken all the things that you need to break to find out where things need to change. ive spun them to 9000rpm iv pushed 25psi of boost. you keep looking for the easy way there is no easy way. it takes money. ive built and broken enough motors now to find the weak spots. friction with the CAM FOLLOWER layout currently in the engine is actually pretty low. its not enough to worry about. the bigger issue is still yet again keeping from munching the valves guide over an extened period of time. im not going to make you happy ive told you what need to be done. you wont listen and this is why you will always be here asking questions and irking my nervres. go call someone like comp cams or maybe even crane cams and talk to the valvetrian tech department. ive given you the answer ive told you where the problem is ( BTW something that would have cost you alot of money to find out. ) and you still dont listen. its like beating my head on a wall. either listen when people with experience talk to you or stop asking questions you dont really want answers to. the whole roller rocker idea of mine was to correct a geometery issue and the bigger isseu with that lie in
roller cams are made from billet steel due to its hardness and strength. on a sintered or gray iron cam like the one in your honda it will break the cam ( done this alreadly) i was curious if the cam was strong enough its not. now you may not have my luxuxrey of having 4-5 motor laying around to eperiment with but i do. and if im telling you theres a reason im doing something its becuase its nessacary. now theres 2 types of roller rockers.
theres a roller tiped rocker which with the vlalve tip centering issues and the aligment of the rocker tip as well as the departing thrust angle. look sot be promising for helping with the lash adjuster issues.
then theres basically a roller cam ( tried it and broke it) use both a roler tip and a roller cam follower.
you can
1 learn form my mistakes
2 be an idiot and swear that no one has any idea what they are talking about.
as for the issue with the highway spark mode on the 1227747 it was a misread on my part and i did post an apology. when your busy running a repair business and learning 2 assembler languages then i geuss youll be entitled to make mistakes to.
but in the future when i tell you something dont contiune to belive that you can do it cheaper easier or faster. i break parts all the time pushing the limit of these motors. i know where it is. ive also come a long way in understanding how the block flexes, the valvetrian behaves etc etc etc etc. i give good info becuase ive invested time colltecting it.
when your interested in listening then come back and talk to me. until then SHUT UP.
A20A1
10-20-2002, 01:10 AM
Ahh, I didn't mean to downplay your experience.
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