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View Full Version : Auto Body Guys!! HELP!!



86LXItooFAST4me
01-08-2005, 04:20 PM
this is my problem:
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/catimgs/13SE00_G05.gif

i bought this car and basically i have to replace #4

so ive got the enitre front end stipped down and i was pring it off and seeing how it was atatched and i see that its spot welded. what steps do i need to do to take this off? do i need to apply heat or is there a special tool? also how do i install the new one. do i just use a regular welder? tig welder? how does this work?

A20A1
01-08-2005, 04:43 PM
tig would be nice, I've never tried to spot weld parts together permanently.. only to hold the parts in place to weld thm later.

you might have to grind / drill it ( might want to add a drill stop so you only drill thru the top layer of metal ), but I've never tried it before so don't listen to me.

Vanilla Sky
01-08-2005, 04:47 PM
there's a special tool...

http://www.eastwood.com/jump.jsp?itemID=873&itemType=CATEGORY&iMainCat=483&iSubCat=873

there's a link to a place to get a couple varieties of them

by the way, there are spot welders, too... i would recommend getting one...

A20A1
01-08-2005, 04:56 PM
there's a special tool...

http://www.eastwood.com/jump.jsp?itemID=873&itemType=CATEGORY&iMainCat=483&iSubCat=873

there's a link to a place to get a couple varieties of them

by the way, there are spot welders, too... i would recommend getting one...

kewl nice find vanilla, maybe I'm just old school with a drill bit and drill stop. :D

Yeah I guess the Tig is a bit much, and more permanent then the Spot... but who want's to repair the front end more then once?

HondaBoy
01-08-2005, 04:59 PM
so the radiator support thing is spot welded on? i didnt know that. are you sure you can handle this? if you have any doubts, i'd say see if you can find someone to do it. the only thing i might worry about is getting it back on strait. dont know if you'd want to tack weld on a support between the left and right until you put the new piece in. really, if you take your time, i'm sure you can get it done right.

86LXItooFAST4me
01-08-2005, 10:48 PM
there's a special tool...

http://www.eastwood.com/jump.jsp?itemID=873&itemType=CATEGORY&iMainCat=483&iSubCat=873

there's a link to a place to get a couple varieties of them

by the way, there are spot welders, too... i would recommend getting one...


NNIICCEE thanks Vanilla!! :cheers:



so the radiator support thing is spot welded on? i didnt know that. are you sure you can handle this? if you have any doubts, i'd say see if you can find someone to do it. the only thing i might worry about is getting it back on strait. dont know if you'd want to tack weld on a support between the left and right until you put the new piece in. really, if you take your time, i'm sure you can get it done right.

lol, dude the best thing about working on cars when you are a TRUE car enthusiast is the challenges you encounter on your journey to your goal. just like any true enthusiast in there own hobby. if i let some one else do it... well thats... thats just no fun now is it??? lmao plus i do have some welding exp. i grew up on a farm and had to fabricate shit all the time with a torch, scrap metal and a welder.


PS- I LOVE SPECIALTY TOOLS they make jobs SO much easier

AccordEpicenter
01-08-2005, 11:26 PM
you have to measure it to make sure everything will line up. Thats the key. IF you can, id try and pull the front core support out as much as possible, even if its close, you can shim it back, but replacing it is a bitch and i wouldnt do it unless its totally trashed.

86LXItooFAST4me
01-09-2005, 01:43 PM
believe me, it is trashed. the rest of the body is in great condition, no rust or anything but the front clip is gone. the fenders and everything in that area are fine but there is no other option than to replace it.

im tempted to find another car but ive put so much work into this one. i didnt realize how bad it actually was till i got the bumper and fenders off. this car IS a lemon. ive basically fixed EVERY thing else on is so far though. i mean the suspention and breaks where gone, the engine was BBADDLY neglected as the entire car. thats one reason i want to fix it. it servived though all of that, this is a stong ass car.

thegreatdane
01-10-2005, 08:40 AM
Yea, just drill out the spot welds. But if it's trashed as you say, you have to be sure that the framework havent been bended. If it is then you will get problems getting it to align when you have to weld on the new radiator support, and you would have to bring it to a shop that can straighten out the frame to the correct specs.

86LXItooFAST4me
01-12-2005, 06:59 AM
ok, i thought about getting another car but i think im still going to do this myself. it looks simple enough. im just worried about getting everything square. anyway i need one of these:

http://www.autotoolmart.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/st_prod.html?p_prodid=10761&p_catid=56&sid=fg1x11EJ52e73z-28105506844.af

http://www.autotoolmart.com/2780.gif

does anyone have a used one? i mean thats not that bad of a price but ill probly never use this again unless i get into body work (maybe) but i was just checking to see if anyone had one. LEMME KNOW PLEASE.


**EDIT

never mind, they are all over eBay. wish me luck guys!

i do have a question about these spot welders though for all you welders.
the steal on these cars is a "mild" steel right? and would 115Vs be enough for this job? like this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26198&item=3866832898&rd=1

it says it runs off household current but is that going to do the job? this would be REALLY nice, that way i dont have to go rent a damn generator. if anyone has any info, please let me know!

86LXItooFAST4me
01-12-2005, 09:31 AM
is the 120/115V (LINK (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=67060&item=3865741322&rd=1)) going to be strong enough or do i need to go ahead and get the 230V (LINK (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26198&item=3866832040&rd=1))?

and does anyone know what gauge of steel the front clip is?

86LXItooFAST4me
01-14-2005, 09:45 AM
BUMP, anyone know? any ideas at all?

A20A1
01-14-2005, 01:18 PM
not sure on the gauge maybe 14 ?

I would google it, I'm not sure what kind of steel is used but the gauge rating can't be that far off. Just measure the thickness with a ruler then find out the gauge for that thickness, just make sure you're getting it for steel and not aluminum or some other metal.

epic1400cs
01-14-2005, 02:35 PM
is the 120/115V (LINK (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=67060&item=3865741322&rd=1)) going to be strong enough or do i need to go ahead and get the 230V (LINK (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26198&item=3866832040&rd=1))?

and does anyone know what gauge of steel the front clip is?

About the gauge of the body parts, these are the conversion (sorry in metric)

2mm =14g
1.5mm =16g
1.2mm =18g
1mm =20g

(25.4mm = 1 inch)

When I made a stretch limo like car out of Rover 827(sister car of Honda Legend) few years ago, I used 20g for outer body panel and used 18g for body structure (under body member etc but very limited locations) I am pretty sure your front clip is 20g but if you still have the car, I recommend you to simply measure the thickness.

About the material, they are mild steel. In modern cars some model use galvanised mild steel but like front section like this mild steel should be ok. Some limited parts (like side protection beam in side the door) are occasionary very tough steel (either high carbon or heat treated) but it is quite rare.

About the current, I dont know so much about the working environment in the US but when I was working as machinenist/welder in Japan (also use 110V for house hold, 230-240 3 phase for industrial) welding machine for 110V was not regarded as good enough to produce stable arc(stable arc = straight, continuous welding bead = strong welding). It doesnt mean that you cannot weld but if you expect good result and if you can afford, I strongly recommend 230V. In UK, occasionaly I use single phase 230V Mig welder. It is not as stable as 3 phase but good enough for both seam welding and simurated spot welding for car body work.

I have limited experience with spot welder installed on a bench but the spot welder you mensioned seems to be good enough to do the job (If the spec is practical spec not a logical calcuration spec). Weldable thickness is up to 3/32” = 2.38mm. It means you can weld two layers of 18g at maximum. Only one thing you have to find out is if there is enough space around the welding point because the two arm have to touch only with the welding point. I am sure the same manufacturer also sells different type of arms so that you can weld in various confined spaces. If you can find rental tool shop renting spot welder it would be the best.

I am not 100% sure about the figures as I am not working as pro anymore so please correct me if somebody notice it.

shepherd79
01-14-2005, 02:48 PM
before you even start drilling and taking old parts out, you should measure everything and weld some strat brases to keep the front of the car square. you don't want to end up with wrong measurements at the end.

86LXItooFAST4me
01-14-2005, 03:04 PM
Weldable thickness is up to 3/32” = 2.38mm. It means you can weld two layers of 18g at maximum. Only one thing you have to find out is if there is enough space around the welding point because the two arm have to touch only with the welding point. I am sure the same manufacturer also sells different type of arms so that you can weld in various confined spaces. If you can find rental tool shop renting spot welder it would be the best.


yeah the welding spots look like they were postiioned for a welder like that. in one hard to reach position the frame has a gap in it for easy access. and you can tell its for this kind of welder because the gape is only big enough for something like that. but yeah the welder will work fine. and i forgot about the stacking for the metal doubling the gauge. im going to go ahead get the 230V and i gues go rent a generater. and im going to go check up a couple rental shops as well. thing is i only have house hold current :( and i would have to get it towed or trailered to a place with one or that could do it for that matter.


but thanks a lot epic1400cs and the rest of you. im starting to get a better picture of what im to do. anymore info would be very helpfull though. thanks again guys.

86LXItooFAST4me
01-14-2005, 03:09 PM
before you even start drilling and taking old parts out, you should measure everything and weld some strat brases to keep the front of the car square. you don't want to end up with wrong measurements at the end.


i still have the engine in and the front engine support installed. i already took off the bulkhead yesterday. i thought of supports to keep it square but i dont think ill have a problem, if anything ill have to push the side out (the car was drivin into somthing so the side would have been pulled in. you can tell on my front shot pick on the picture that it had to be a poll or tree) so im almost posative it isnt strait anyway. but yeah, thanks alex

epic1400cs
01-14-2005, 03:32 PM
im going to go ahead get the 230V and i gues go rent a generater. and im going to go check up a couple rental shops as well. thing is i only have house hold current :( and i would have to get it towed or trailered to a place with one or that could do it for that matter.


Do you think can you manage the job only with the spot welder? If so, why dont you hire the portable spot welder with 110V? Then you dont have to hire the generator - must be big and expensive.

My explanation was not enough. The spot welder works different to other Mig, Tig or Arc welder. It is fitted with timer and the current goes through the two metal alms and heat up the material you weld. Mig, Tig and Arc throw the current through the air so it need high current, naturally 230V is better.

If I were you, I would check if all the job can be done with spot (can ask pro at a dealership). Then find the rental spot welder with 110V and hire for one day to experiment with junk panel if it works properly for your job then hire it. If not, then hire spot welder with 230V and generator. If you cant find spot welder at all, you can simulate spot weld with Mig or Tig (if you havent tried it before, you may need practice). Also I would ask pro body shop an estimate how much they will charge for only the welding job and if rental cost is almost the same, ask pro to do it.

Another 2 pence, before you dismantle or in the process, make a note or take a picture of all the joint, location of the spot weld, number of the spot etc - this will be helpful when you put together with new panel. Also if you think the body is not straight already, get the body chart on eBay or somewhere so you can know what would be the correct distance of each panel etc. I have heard that +/- 3 mm is the tolarance.

86LXItooFAST4me
01-15-2005, 07:10 AM
Another 2 pence, before you dismantle or in the process, make a note or take a picture of all the joint, location of the spot weld, number of the spot etc - this will be helpful when you put together with new panel. Also if you think the body is not straight already, get the body chart on eBay or somewhere so you can know what would be the correct distance of each panel etc. I have heard that +/- 3 mm is the tolarance.


what ebay body chart are you talking about? ive never heard of that, got a link or anything?

epic1400cs
01-15-2005, 11:48 AM
what ebay body chart are you talking about? ive never heard of that, got a link or anything?

It is a chart with dimention of chasis so that you can measure your chasis and correct it where needed.

You can buy it on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7946625222&category=6032&sspagename=WDVW

89 1989 Honda Accord Frame Chart
Item number 7946625222

But also it is included in the Honda shop manual. Thanks to Mr.Paul, you can down load it from

www.pauldesign.ru/honda/shopmanual.html

and look for 'Frame Repair Chart 21-106' under Body section.

Luis 89LXi
01-17-2005, 04:05 PM
Hey tooFast !

I need to do same on my car, i take out the front bumper awhile ago and realize i have a front end damage on pass side. The area on the bumper bracket is bent and the bracket is weld on the frame and bumper support on both sides. due a bad aligment on holes. Pass side popup ligth is down for about a .5 inch and this horrible gap on bumper. All messed up. Anyway I just love this car.
I have a friend on body repair they do frame repair and welding chassis parts. He can help me out.

For real man, keep us posted i will do same on my car but until this spring "when the money comes".

Luis