budget motor build q's

[hondamanlxi]

Well the n2o finally got the best of my motor and i got a mechanically sound motor from the j/y. This motor/head will be completely (re)built b/f i put it in...

1) I wanna get to 10/1 comp without spending 700 on diamond pistons/rods.How much can the block be decked? How much can the head be shaved?

2) I know the stock head cfm is 135, but how many cc's? Intake especially

3) Is it true that ls pistons are the same size? Are they higher comp?

4) Has anyone found stock valves from any car that are the same installed height but bigger?

please understand i cant afford diamond pistons,titanium valves/retainers,or any high dollar shit! This in no way means im doing this half-assed!

thanks guys

[Chicane]

I hear the unobtanium pistons are better than the diamond ones. ;P

[AccordEpicenter]

nothing youre gonna do is gonna be cheap here. Valves and the bigger pistons will cost you out the ass. Youre gonna need some good rod bolts, you can use stock rods but id have them shotpeened. LS pistons are the same bore i belive, but... the pin height is different (you cant use them). With a good cam and head port youll outflow the stock cam with oversize valves and a mild port etc. You can safely take these engines to 7250 rpm on a stock valvetrain if its in good shape, but i wouldnt do it very often on stock pistons/rod bolts, aftermarket pieces are lighter and resist the flex that such a high rpm load will have. With the stock replacement forged pistons from diamond you should be able to keep your stock rods if you have the small end enlarged from 19mm to 21mm at a machine shop. Also a better intake manifold will help boatloads? how much hp are you shooting for?

[3gn86lxi]

HP=$$$$$$$
Spend it wisely. :alc:
It will take money to make true horsepower.

[hondamanlxi]

you know what, nevermind! Ill just build it and show you that SOME money in the right places can really help!I know performance isnt cheap, budget is a relative term! Thanks for treating me like im dumb ;) Im only shooting for 200hp b/f spray
mods to date (http://www.3geez.com/vbgarage.php?do=view&id=135)

not listed is the crower cam i ordered from vinny

[Chicane]

200hp out of a 2 liter that normally makes 98-160ish? Good luck! Hope you can do it, it'd be cool. :)

[A20A1]

There was a 300 + A20... not sure if it was N/A or nitrous injected.
It had quad bike carbs. :D

I'd just shoot to keep improving what you've got, whatever the hp is you'll at least be better then it was before... sooner or later you'll hit 200.

I would jump at the chance to pop in a larger exhaust valve seeing as we only have one to play with... but that's money I don't have.

Did you ever end up getting a larger TB?

[A20A1]

1) I wanna get to 10/1 comp without spending 700 on diamond pistons/rods.How much can the block be decked? How much can the head be shaved?
...

Ah, don't shave, do what Openloop did and weld the inside of the chamber to increase compression... this way you still have good deck height for safety of your valve train. and you don't have the added expense of fitting in custom made high comp pistons.

http://www.3geez.com/vbgarage.php?do=getimage&id=85



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[hondamanlxi]

thanks alot a20a1! your attitude is why you deserve AOTM!

a20a1: ill keep you updated on my quest for STOCK REPLACEMENT valves that are 1mm bigger on the intake and 2mm on the exhaust! Im not sure what car theyll come from but ill find em ;)

[AccordEpicenter]

well 200hp n/a before spray is quite a project... I seriously doubt it could be done without some seriously big cams and huge port work

[hondamanlxi]

big ports YES! big cam eventually! I dont know how to make the ecu happy yet

[Vanilla Sky]

persoanlly, i don't like that welded head... it may raise compression, but it screws up what honda put millions of dollars into for design... the shape of the head is the shape it is for a reason... having an oddly shaped head goes against what i know about head design... i think you're better off with the high comp pistons or a shaved head... anyways, i thought most people that built nitrous motors dropped thier compression...

[AccordEpicenter]

youre gonna need either a chipped ecu from a different car (somthing that you can control timing with) or standalone or somthing... fine tuning N/A has to be more exact then for turbo for big power gains... Turbos you can ballpark it if youre on the safe side of things.

[hondamanlxi]

vanilla sky, thats the whole thing, Im trying to get off the spray! I want it to be kinda like backup;)

[A20A1]

persoanlly, i don't like that welded head... it may raise compression, but it screws up what honda put millions of dollars into for design... the shape of the head is the shape it is for a reason... having an oddly shaped head goes against what i know about head design... i think you're better off with the high comp pistons or a shaved head... anyways, i thought most people that built nitrous motors dropped thier compression...

Is it the path of the flame kernal or how the air flows thru the intake and to the exhaust that causes so much trouble with welding it?

In my view a smaller space will flow the gasses at a higher velocity, but that effect may only be relavent durring a short period in the engine cycle.

However
What I don't like is the little " V " notch near the spark plug... it may effect the efficiency of the intake stroke some durring the overlap period.

Also the filled in area has a straight edge instead of a chamfer... that may effect things on the exhaust stroke.

But I'm only guessing here.

Anyways what is shown may be a bit extreme.. you may only need to fill in less then what is show to achieve the comp ratio you want or go for the A18 head.

[Chicane]

I really think that's going to be damn impossible unless you stroke it, run insane RPMs or something. Ever heard of MEP? Google for MEP.... it's basically the efficiency of an engine..... for example, an s2000 has a mep that's pretty high... the corvette z06 has a fairly bad mep.

HOLD ON! Even though the s2000 has a higher mep, it has a quite narrow powerband making it kinda suck for street use, and the Z06 with it's old school technology and shitty mep manage to beat the s2000 in every single category, INCLUDING miles per gallon...

Moral of the story? It'd be really really hard to get 200hp out of 2 liters if it's NA. Turbo, sure, nitrous sure, but very very very very expensive to do so completely na. Also, just because you have a higher mep doesn't mean it's going to be a good idea for street car.

- Chicane

[Vanilla Sky]

mike, i'll take the first answer for $100... that and the fact that you want everything in there opened up, not walled off like that welded head...

chichane... the s2000 and vetter use two motors, each of which are pretty much polar opposites... the vette has a v-8 that has gobs and gobs of torque... it has a decently smoothe and wide power band because of the fact that it's a medium displacement v8 motor... the motor in the s2000 on the other hand is a fairly small 2 or 2.2(year dependant) litre 4cyl motor which is tuned to make power much farther higher in revs... because of the natures of these two very different motors, they are going to perform differently... niether is really better than the other... they are just different... though i think if you really got into the throttles of these cars on a racetrack, such as a road course, things like milage will come out the same... on the road, one may get better milage because of other attributes to the car, such as gear ratios, number of gears, shiftpoints... we can go on and on about this......

200HP on a naturally aspirated 2 litre engine may require a lot of tuning and a good bit of money, but it's attainable without robbing the bank weekly... things like crossreferencing parts, such as hondaman is looking into is a good route... i do have to say though that if i were hondaman, i would spend the money on pistons, rods, and a balanced bottom end... may not be a power maker in itself, but it's going to make the motor more reliable due to better made parts, and make the rotating mass lighter, so as to have the ability to rev higher (well, at least until valvefloat becomes and issue)...

one question i must ask is that where do you want to see this 200 HP? at the crank or at the wheels? big difference

[AccordEpicenter]

while im not knocking the vette (i like some vettes) if they made their v8 to honda specs itd be making 570hp stock n/a oem factory... that would be impressive. I dont like that head because it looks like itd develop hotspots thatll lead to detonation with all those added edges and shapes, and thats a risk i wouldnt like very much if i was forced induction or spraying... or even top shelf N/A. For the money youre looking to spend on this project youd prolly be better off moneywise on a small turbo setup.

[Vanilla Sky]

For the money youre looking to spend on this project youd prolly be better off moneywise on a small turbo setup.


yeah, that's what they keep telling me... i wanna see 200 WHP out of our cars without boost and the A20 motor... i think it can be done, too...

[Mike's89AccordLX]

Definately get your bottom end balanced. Build it good from the bottom up and you will reach your goal. I have the same goal of 200hp with my accord. I'm not in any hurry to do it though. I might end up getting a b20a motor and making it carbed :)

-Mike

[AccordEpicenter]

get some dcoe's

[AccordEpicenter]

edit... im a retard :repost: :sadwave:

[Chicane]

I'm posting this from another forum....

I talked with Rob (Chicane) before and he wanted me to share with you a point I made to him. The point relates to "MEP" ("Mean Effective Pressure") MEP is defined as the pressure that would have exist inside the combustion chambers during the power stroke to produce an equal amount of power. This assumes no pumping or compression losses, and no friction. It is purely academic but it can be a useful tool.

If you think about it, MEP is directly proportional to torque. Torque, in turn (or rather, peak torque) is almost directly proportional to displacement. Don't believe me? Grab a car magazine, go through and find every naturally aspirated gas engine you can find. Calculate torque divided by displacement. Almost all engines will be in the range of 90-100 Nm per liter. (You can't count forced induction engines- that changes everything. ) The torque per unit displacement can tell you something about how "efficient" the engine is (but this is only loosely related to thermal efficiency, which is work out/energy in). But, since engines in most cars are designed by competant engineers there is not wide variation in MEP.

Now, with a naturally aspirated engine, you can only get a MEP so high. You can port and polish, put on new manifolds, raise the compression ratio, tune the fuel system, but there is definitely an upper limit to how much pressure (or effective pressure) you can get. What is this limit? Well, no one really knows, but you CAN look at some of the best engines in the world (namely, Formula One) and compare what their teams of 100's of world-class engineers are getting to what you want, and see if it's reasonable. The MEP's in high performance racing engines are typically around 20% greater than in passenger car engines.

Now, as I've said, MEP is proportional to torque. What about power? Well, power depends on WHERE on the tachometer the torque comes in. Power is proportional to torque x RPM, so torque at a higher RPM will get you more power. Putting in high performance cams, for example, does not change how MUCH torque your engine makes, but it changes WHERE on the tach the torque peak comes. It shifts the torque peak up, meaning you make more peak power. But you do this at the expense of low-end torque and power and a smooth idle.

So, if we want to know what the maximum power potential of an engine is, it's proportional to how much air you can flow into it. For a naturally aspirated engine that's proportional to redline x displacement. So, to see how close an engine is to its maximum power potential, you could take POWER(hp) / (REDLINE(kRPM) x DISPLACEMENT(L)) and call that the "power efficiency." This value is related to MEP, but they are not the same because of the RPM effect I mentioned in the last paragraph.

A modern F1 engine makes around 850 horsepower, has a displacement of 3 liters and turns 19,000 RPM. So, the "power efficiency" of this engine is 14.91. Consider this an upper limit for all of your projects (again, this only applies to naturally aspirated engines, and nitrous doesn't really count). A few other "power efficiency" values for high performance engines:

Moto GP - 14.55
McLaren F1 - 13.70
Honda S2000 - 13.33
Suzuki GSX-R600 - 13.22
BMW M3 - 13.01
Porsche 911 - 12.70

For the purposes of modifying your Subaru engines, you could probably take 14 to be a good upper limit.

Now, there are reasons why you WOULDN'T want the highest power efficiency. Rough idle, poor fuel economy, poor emissions, lots of noise, and deficient low-end torque are all consequences of tuning an engine for maximum power efficiency. Take the Chevrolet LS6 engine (from the Z06 Corvette). It has a power efficiency of *only* 10.93. Why? Because GM engineers are idiots? Hardly. The Z06 makes 405 horsepower, runs the quarter in 12.4 @ 116 mph, but still gets almost 20/30 mpg city/hwy. Compare that to the Honda S2000, which has a significantly higher power efficiency. Yet the S2000 makes less power AND has poorer fuel economy. So the “best” engine doesn’t always have the highest power efficiency.

The point is this: you need to figure out exactly what you want from your engine, and then the best way to get it. If you want 400 hp out of your SVX engine (3.3 liters, 6500 RPM redline) you’re going to have to increase the displacement, raise the redline, or add a supercharger or turbo (or nitrous). To do otherwise would require a power efficiency of 18.65, which is impossible. When modifying your engine ask yourself these questions:

-What fuel do I want to use? (regular, premium, race gas, alcohol...)
-Is a smooth idle important?
-Is fuel economy important?
-Do I care about flexibility (broad power band)?
-Do I care about peak power?
-How much money do I want to spend?
-How often to I want to rebuild it?

Invariably you’re not going to be able to get everything you want, so you need to set priorities. It’s a very complicated process, one for the most part I can’t help you with.

Rob wanted me to stress the fact that the power efficiency of the stock engine, 10.72, can be improved. He is correct. However, there are consequences to everything you do to your engine. Like I said, figure out what you want, and then the best way to get it.

[Chicane]

Basically, the honda version of the v8 would not make that much power... UNLESS it had the same RPM... the chevy's engine is not a dinosaur, nor is it outdated. In terms of MEP, it loses, but in terms of power, torque, powerband, and fuel mileage it wins. All with a lower mep.

[Chicane]

Also, you can't just use simple math and say "Honda made x amount of hp with 2 liters, so if I made a 6 liter honda engine it would make 3x amount!" It doesn't work like that. Bigger engines have heavier internal components, more moving mass, and they will naturally rev LOWER than small-displacement engines. This means that with a smaller engine, you can use revs to increase your mep.. with a larger engine it will have lower revs.

[Vanilla Sky]

chicane... i'm not sure how much you're around here, but engine theory has been discussed very indepth... i'm not saying that what you posted isn't good info, i'm just saying that it is overcomplicating this thread... this would make a good sticky write-up, though... not by any means everything you need to know, but is a good primer on this topic...

what hondaman is asking here is more of "what parts would you guys suggest for a nitrous motor rebuild, keeping in mind that i want to make 200hp" than why what works...

oh, and you double posted... the BIG post got double posted, so that's a lot of useless data clogging our servers... mods, please fix that, hehe... while you're at it, consider stickying write-ups such as this more often, or putting them into an archive of sorts...

[AccordEpicenter]

Yet the S2000 makes less power AND has poorer fuel economy. So the “best” engine doesn’t always have the highest power efficiency.

Thats only true if you shift the corvette 1st gear to 4th gear skipping 2nd and 3rd and using a light pedal.

[smufguy]

Also, you can't just use simple math and say "Honda made x amount of hp with 2 liters, so if I made a 6 liter honda engine it would make 3x amount!" It doesn't work like that. Bigger engines have heavier internal components, more moving mass, and they will naturally rev LOWER than small-displacement engines. This means that with a smaller engine, you can use revs to increase your mep.. with a larger engine it will have lower revs.

do not generalize bigger displacement with #of cylinders. All F1 cars and most of the high end F1 cars use a 3.0 V8 or a V10, this means the stroke is amazingly small and bore id moderate, hence they spin at 17000 rpm making 500bhp and what not. So please do not blindly compare american V8s to Import V8 or V6s.

it all depends on the stroke to rod length ratio of 1.75 or something. close the current motors numbers are to this, the higher it will spin utelizing whatever advantage a motor can have at those rpms, . Stroking a motor gives a lot of power since it increases displacement but at the same time it increases rotational mass since the piston needs to travel more coupled with the high compression they are used with to gain power. Last thing you wanna do is put a strain on the motor, and we are not race teams who have the luxury of swapping motors every 3 days.

[A20A1]

Yeah I've seen the head off of some F1 cars... tiny arse pistons.

[AccordEpicenter]

All F1 cars and most of the high end F1 cars use a 3.0 V8 or a V10, this means the stroke is amazingly small and bore id moderate, hence they spin at 17000 rpm making 500bhp and what not. So please do not blindly compare american V8s to Import V8 or V6s.

They also have scary high compression and or boost, like say, 75 psi boost... they also run on toluene and xylene etc. Stick to streetable stuff guys.

[Chicane]

Thats only true if you shift the corvette 1st gear to 4th gear skipping 2nd and 3rd and using a light pedal.

Uh, no. The vette is faster, and gets better mpg around town and on the highway. This is because a the honda engine lacks the large torque curve necessary to use tall gearing. It does have a higher mep, but it's a very good example of how just because an engine has a better MEP doesn't mean it's a good idea. The Z06 beats the s2000 in every category, and uses less fuel. That's the sign of a well engineered car.

[Chicane]

do not generalize bigger displacement with #of cylinders. All F1 cars and most of the high end F1 cars use a 3.0 V8 or a V10, this means the stroke is amazingly small and bore id moderate, hence they spin at 17000 rpm making 500bhp and what not. So please do not blindly compare american V8s to Import V8 or V6s.

When did I do that? I'm talking about mep. Displacement, redline, and horsepower. For example, if I want to find the mep of my SVX (sorry, I don't have the accord specs memorized), I take 230hp / (3.3 liters * 6.5k rpms), and end up with a MEP of 10.72. Like I stated, a modern F1 engine has about the best MEP in the world for a naturally aspirated engine.


it all depends on the stroke to rod length ratio of 1.75 or something. close the current motors numbers are to this, the higher it will spin utelizing whatever advantage a motor can have at those rpms,

Actually it doesn't all depend on just that. There's tons of variables. My point was the stock accord engine... puts out... what... 98hp... from 2 liters, and I'm guessing redline is 6.5k or so. That means the stock mep is 98/(2*6.5)= 7.5, a pretty weak mep (however, also probably the reason the engines last so long and are so reliable. Let's say you don't want to rev the crap out of your engine, and you don't want to stroke it.. you just want to increase the efficiency... so lets say you increase your mep to about... oh... 9.75, a pretty huge jump. Using the same equation, we can figure out how much HP it will make given the same displacement and redline. (6.5*2)*9.75= 126hp. In order to get 200hp out of 2 liters with a 6.5k redline, you're going to need a mep of 15.3, which is well above the current F1 engine efficiency... so basically, if you want 200hp, you're going to have to increase the redline by quite a bit, or increase the displacement.



Stroking a motor gives a lot of power since it increases displacement but at the same time it increases rotational mass since the piston needs to travel more coupled with the high compression they are used with to gain power. Last thing you wanna do is put a strain on the motor, and we are not race teams who have the luxury of swapping motors every 3 days.

That's not all. Stroking a motor also involves longer connecting rods, which means for every revolution the piston has to travel farther... if you bore it out, you avoid this, but one bad thing about stroking is that the piston is moving MUCH faster than before at any given RPM, puttinga lot more stress on your bearings.

- Chicane

[Oldblueaccord]

When did I do that? I'm talking about mep. Displacement, redline, and horsepower. For example, if I want to find the mep of my SVX (sorry, I don't have the accord specs memorized), I take 230hp / (3.3 liters * 6.5k rpms), and end up with a MEP of 10.72. Like I stated, a modern F1 engine has about the best MEP in the world for a naturally aspirated engine.



Actually it doesn't all depend on just that. There's tons of variables. My point was the stock accord engine... puts out... what... 98hp... from 2 liters, and I'm guessing redline is 6.5k or so. That means the stock mep is 98/(2*6.5)= 7.5, a pretty weak mep (however, also probably the reason the engines last so long and are so reliable. Let's say you don't want to rev the crap out of your engine, and you don't want to stroke it.. you just want to increase the efficiency... so lets say you increase your mep to about... oh... 9.75, a pretty huge jump. Using the same equation, we can figure out how much HP it will make given the same displacement and redline. (6.5*2)*9.75= 126hp. In order to get 200hp out of 2 liters with a 6.5k redline, you're going to need a mep of 15.3, which is well above the current F1 engine efficiency... so basically, if you want 200hp, you're going to have to increase the redline by quite a bit, or increase the displacement.




That's not all. Stroking a motor also involves longer connecting rods, which means for every revolution the piston has to travel farther... if you bore it out, you avoid this, but one bad thing about stroking is that the piston is moving MUCH faster than before at any given RPM, puttinga lot more stress on your bearings.

- Chicane

He's rolling now. Great info. Higher piston speeds arn't necessaryly a bad thing but like in the type r motor there kinda getting crazy. All this stuff is something to consider. 200 hp is what my target HP is thats why I'm looking into an H22 swap or a supercharger setup in the future on the a20. Its the only 2 setups that are sane IMO.

I never been a big fan of Honda's V-tec deal . There just playing the emissions game in Cali. I mean who drives around at 6-8 k rpms all day in traffic :rice:

I much rather have a car the pulls good in the 2-5 k rpm with a cruise of 3k at the most.

wp

[Oldblueaccord]

thanks alot a20a1! your attitude is why you deserve AOTM!

a20a1: ill keep you updated on my quest for STOCK REPLACEMENT valves that are 1mm bigger on the intake and 2mm on the exhaust! Im not sure what car theyll come from but ill find em ;)

Get a ferrea valve cat. and look thru it. On oddball motors you gotta do a little leg work but you can usually find what you needing. Just have your motor specs handy and do alotta comparing. Were not the only crew that has a great car with a forgotton motor.

I found out a few days ago that Chevy LS1 8 mm stem valves work in my "302" style heads on the 318 dodge motor im finishing up. It can happen.

wp

[smufguy]

mep = P (hp) *n * 396*000 / (V (cin)*N(rpm) );

where P = power (KW or hp) , n = 2 (crank revolutions, 2 for 4 stroke and 1 for two stroke), V = cyl disp, N = rpm


so Your equation is for a two stroke motor then?

from the right equation ur svx produces a mep of 230*2 *369000/(201.378*6500) which is 129.676 (lb/in^2) and a A3 efi motor produces 120*2*369000 / (6250*120) = 118.080 (lb/in^2). Not that great of a difference. Also u cant use the carb motor specs since that is of a different injection system. If ur gonna use a fuel injected svx, then lets use a fuel injected 3g motor.

in order to determine power of the motor, the head flow, fuel injection rate/system specs and spark and what not need to be taken into account. So if we are gonna make a side by side FAIR comparision, then aside from the motor differences, everything else should be the same, but in cars, its not. and yet, look at the numbers above, our motors are only 11 units shy of yours.

stroking the motor: its common sense that its already known that when u stroke u use longer rods. And yes, stroke to rod length ratio is crucial if you want to have a high revving engine that wont blow up after a while. Given all the parts are natural metal and are not cryo or nitrate treated. so yeah, stroking the motor induces higher rotational mass...... period.

Note: higher displ engines DO NOT have to REV LOWEr than 4 cyls. Ever looked at your own car? its a 3.3 V6 with a redline of 6.5K, while this 3g is a 2.0 with a redline of 6250K also, look at C32 type S motors, redlines almost at 7, look at 300zx motors, 3.0L with a 7K redline. Your rev limit on JUST the motor, is mainly due to the bottom end weight.

Back to the point of this thread. ........... I dont think its impossible to make 200 raw hp outta this motor. yeah of course its gonna be a lil hard since he wants too much for too little money, but with cams, enlarged and polished ports, valves, proper ignition and fuel, he can make his 200 hp if he wants with a decent 7K redline with an aftermarket high lift cam. of course its easier with a piggy back or standalone to tune it right since the stock vacuum shit ain gonna cut it.

[Oldblueaccord]

Your misunderstanding stroker motors. Usually its new pistons,higher pin height, and a stroker crank since your throw is LONGER. Its not always longer rods to stroke a motor.


wp

[smufguy]

Your misunderstanding stroker motors. Usually its new pistons,higher pin height, and a stroker crank since your throw is LONGER. Its not always longer rods to stroke a motor.


wp


:ugh:

[Chicane]

mep = P (hp) *n * 396*000 / (V (cin)*N(rpm) );

where P = power (KW or hp) , n = 2 (crank revolutions, 2 for 4 stroke and 1 for two stroke), V = cyl disp, N = rpm


so Your equation is for a two stroke motor then?


Nope. 4 stroke. Yours is probably more accurate, but mine is good enough for rough guestimation and comparisons.


Also u cant use the carb motor specs since that is of a different injection system. If ur gonna use a fuel injected svx, then lets use a fuel injected 3g motor.

Yes actually I can use it. It's a free country, and considering I own a carb model, it's the only 3g accord's specs that I have memorized. Like I said, I don't know much abotu the EFI models otherwise I would use one of those. I wasn't using the SVX's eg33 to show that it's a superior engine or anything like that, I was just using the eg33 and the carb'd accord specs because I know those, and I don't have to google and look them up. The equation I was using will work on ANY engine as long as it's NA... boost and nitrous will mess it up.


in order to determine power of the motor, the head flow, fuel injection rate/system specs and spark and what not need to be taken into account.

Sure, but again, you're not going to get a mep of above 15. You're either going to have to raise the redline considerably, or increase the displacement. If you want 200hp out of a 2 liter engine with a mep of around 10, you're going to need to have a redline of 10k rpms. That's INSANE, which is why I stated that I don't think 200hp is going to happen from that 2 liter unless it's A. Boosted. B. Nitrous. C. Insane redline. D. Increase the displacement.



So if we are gonna make a side by side FAIR comparision, then aside from the motor differences, everything else should be the same, but in cars, its not. and yet, look at the numbers above, our motors are only 11 units shy of yours.

That was not the point. AGAIN, I was only using the eg33 because I know the specs. Same with the carb'd accord specs. I was not trying to say one is better than the other, or make any comparisons other than showing how the math works.


Note: higher displ engines DO NOT have to REV LOWEr than 4 cyls. Ever looked at your own car? its a 3.3 V6 with a redline of 6.5K, while this 3g is a 2.0 with a redline of 6250K also, look at C32 type S motors, redlines almost at 7, look at 300zx motors, 3.0L with a 7K redline. Your rev limit on JUST the motor, is mainly due to the bottom end weight.

Are you just trying to start a fight? I have said general things to try to help people understand things, and you're nitpicking small points. SURE, a 3.3 liter might rev higher than a 3 liter, but that's not what I was getting at. If you compare a model airplane engine to a v8, the model airplane engine has a redline of 15-20k! The v8 has a redline 6-7k! Guess what? A semi tractor engine has an even LOWER redline. You know those huge diesels that power ships? An EVEN LOWER redline. There's room for +- a few rpms, but in general, the bigger an engine is, the lower it revs. A diesel engine in a train is gigantic, and it has a MUCH lower redline than a puny automotive engine. It's a fact of life: The bigger the engine, the lower it's rpms. If you compare engines that are only .5 liters apart, OBVIOUSLY THIS DOES NOT APPLY since they're almost the same size.


Back to the point of this thread. ........... I dont think its impossible to make 200 raw hp outta this motor. yeah of course its gonna be a lil hard since he wants too much for too little money, but with cams, enlarged and polished ports, valves, proper ignition and fuel, he can make his 200 hp if he wants with a decent 7K redline with an aftermarket high lift cam. of course its easier with a piggy back or standalone to tune it right since the stock vacuum shit ain gonna cut it.

Fine, you believe that, but I'm not going to hold my breath. If you want 200hp out of a 2 liter engine with a 7k redline, it's going to require a mep of 14.28, which means it's going to have to be a MORE EFFICIENT ENGINE THAN THE MCLAREN F1. Almost close to motoGP racing engines. If you think that's goignt o happen, you go right ahead.

- Chicane

[Chicane]

Your misunderstanding stroker motors. Usually its new pistons,higher pin height, and a stroker crank since your throw is LONGER. Its not always longer rods to stroke a motor.


Sorry, my mistake. I misspoke. First off, I grew up on v8s... my first car was a 68 Charger with a 383/hurst 4 spd, so I'm still fairly new to all this honda stuff. Secondly, your right about strokers, I was just trying to get the point across that hte piston is going to be traveling farther in each RPM, meaning it's traveling faster, meaning more stress on the bearings.

[AccordEpicenter]

also in F1, when theyre hitting 17500 rpm... they have such a short stroke that their mean piston speed isnt much higher than say an S2ks at 9000... its all in the R/S ratio

[smufguy]

nobody is trying to start a fight here Chicane. If thats how you felt about it, then i am sorry. I know you are new here and most of us have been here for a long time. POint is that this is the car we can afford and we work around reality here and not be race team motor builders using every possible equation to get it right. We work around budgets and help each other out when we find something to work. Yeah there is a lot of debate that goes after it, but most of it turns out to be more informative and helpful to new guys and old guys as a whole.

The reason im replying to this thread everytime it gets a reply cause i find it to be informative. Also, lets have an example. You know of Jun and his works and his stroked out B16 to a 1842 cc motor with a redline of 8100 rpm making 257hp NA. So from your equation, its 257/(8.1*1.8) = 17.627. The motor is not considerably raised in the redline, its only what like 1000rpm more of a normal B16? also, its pretty close to a type R rev if im not mistaken (help me out here steve, u know im not good with B series). I dont know how much work he put into it, but with a same replica parts made to specs by a local builder, the same stats can be acheived.

This is why i always tend to keep my mind open to possibilities cause power making on any motor is not one way. Day by day they are finding a lot of possible ways to get the efficiency into the high numbers.

ps: I do not know your intentions here, but one thing i can guess is that you wanna get your point thru. but a comparission bwt a model plane motor to a V8? i lost the connection bwt them. Also, I have looked at a ship's engine, the cyl volume is big enough that i can just stand inside one of them. And diesel engines cannot be compared to a gasoline engine in terms of reving, cause their cyclic method is different, gasoline motors are spark ignition motors and diesel are adiabatic compression motors.

I understand what you are trying to say, but you get us lost with your comparissions to make yourself right. And please do not think anyone is trying to pick a fight with you here. Senior members here are not kids who are 15 or 16 and do not have the willingness to be immature. We try to guide anyone in need in the right way and at the same time are more than willing to learn what comes our way. That mentality is what made this forum friendlier and wonderful place to be not just for cars but just to socialize and know people around.

[A20A1]

Why did you use the carb motor with only 98 hp

Use the EFI 120 hp A20

Remember he is EFI and his goal is 200 hp then there is much less of a jump to make.

The carb motor has so much emissions crap on it and a fat ol grate (EFE SCREEN) inside the intake manifold adding a good deal of restriction.

With simply removing some junk for better cold running and the weak stock fuel system, the car really opens up and will probably still actieve the same emissions and maybe have a slight drop in fuel efficency.

No over boring of the cylinders... or rasing compression... nothing major.

Remember the EFI doesn't have to worry about the restrictions of needing restrictions, namely venturies and booster venturies. It also has more manifold options. Plenty of things are hindering performance for the carb motor... so don't think just because the A20 starts out at 98 hp that thats really what it's capable of making without big bucks thrown at it.

The EFI swap is the easiest way to get HP stock...

But it's not to say you can't stay carbed :D

[Chicane]

Can you give me some more specs on that b16? As I said before, current f1 engines cannot exceed 15... something isn't right with the specs you've given me. You cannot get 250hp out of 1.8 liters with only 8100rpms. It cannot happen.

[A20A1]

I think the B16 has a 11:1 or 13:1 CR

[smufguy]

Can you give me some more specs on that b16? As I said before, current f1 engines cannot exceed 15... something isn't right with the specs you've given me. You cannot get 250hp out of 1.8 liters with only 8100rpms. It cannot happen.

Name: JUN Super Lemon Civic
Chassie: (EK4)
Motor: B16 (stroked to 1842 cc)
max Power: 257 hp at 8100 rpm
Compression ratio: 12.4:1
Internals: 1.8L crank, pistons and connecting rods (pistons, rods and cams are Jun originals)

Search for its video online you will find it if you want more proof. I have the video of it.

It cannot happen?? Dude it can, change your mind.

F1 cars are all under regulations of many sort. And their technology and achievement does not mean its their peak or thats the limitations. When something is bound by rules and governing regulations, it cannot be subjected to as the limit for every single car out in the rest of the world.

[rjudgey]

Right everyone else has had a go heres what i've developed over the last 5 years.

33mm inlet valve conversion using exhaust valves turned down to a nicer shape and 33mm size, existing valve spring platforms and exhaust valve retainers and springs from exhaust can be used on the inlet side, the standard seals are still able to be used, i had the machinist reem out the old guides to the new size which saves having to fit new ones as well. The most expensive bit was getting the valves machined down to a nice shape and getting the necks narrowed at the port end, apparantly the O.E Honda Exhaust valves are super strength stainless steel type possibly even forged he had a job cutting them down and went through quite a few bits to do 8 of them, so might be easier/cheaper to get some custom made to the same specs. I liked this mod cause i had loads of exhaust valves knocking around, as well as loads of springs and their all double springs as well, after some mucking about with different types settled for a combo of A20 outer spring with A18 inner spring the ultimate would be A18 springs all round but with teh duration cam i was using this was unnessary and would have had too much frictional losses. Was using 275 degree cam and a 285.

The next big problem was valve seat cutting, with a 33mm valve the stock seats can just about be used but life may be limited done 20K and so far no problems, depends really howmuch you port the inside of the seats out if you just take them out 1mm-2mm not a problem but i bored mine out as far as possible as i wanted to gain the most from going up 3mm in size on the valves. Now the head i used was A18 which has smaller chambers, the reason i chose this was to initialy raise the CR ratio, but after 3 years of development this was leading to problems with gasket faliure, and also detonation problems, i then proceded to go back to the Honda designed hemispherical design, i bored out the chambers to match exactly the bore size, and then proceeded to flow the chambers so that i would gain extra power from being able to shift more air in and out the chambers, this worked out better, the valves all have more room to breathe, theirs no lips around the valve seats hindering flow, and no edges around the gasket to produce excess pressure, the chambers after flowing were all cc'd matched and then given a good polishing.

I chose the A18 head as the design of the ports give the engine quite a bit or torque and also had a setup of webers allready ready on an inlet manifold that was made for A18 by Autoquip, this was ported and flowed to the max port size was 45mm at carb end funneling down to around 40mm at the inlet port side, the carbs were also modded with some nice little tweeks to improve flow 42mm choke size and countersunk butterfly screws as well as all flash casting and imperfections cleaned up and polished out.

Thats the head sorted out started using 285 cam but found that with 33mm inlet valves this cam is way to big and the head bottlenecks up severly at 6000rpm where as before it would rev strong to 7.5K with 30mm valves. With the 275 cam found that this transformed the engine produced extra power everywhere from low down upto the top end with a little cam retard was making excellent power all the way to 6.5-6.75K and would still pull to 7K strongly in 4th.

If you wanted more revs and BHP then A20 head would be the way to go, but if you wanted 33mm inlet valves and high durationo cam you would need some porting work, but also you would need ITB's or Carbs with a minimum of 45mm bore ideally 50mm would fly, this is what i'm working on at the moment, just built up a spare engine using ET1 with Webers as a comparison going for Torque, then this year started on the Killer A20 33mm inlet valves custom, headwork by me, 295 cam with 11.5mm lift B16 ITB inlet manifold from Jenvey with either 50mm ITB's or some seriously large bike carbs 45+mm and that should be good for 250bhp with a bottom end using forged high CR ration pistons, at the mo using Sealed power cast pistons with a really low CR ration A20A1 spec. 11:1 would make it really fly!!

As for the block i've found that using stock rods is not a problem, i've used them on engines regualrily turning 8K in race use and as long as you get the polished and use new rod bolts from Honda or get ARP ones machinied to fit, these should not be an issue, but i've not tried them on Honda pistons which are heavier the sealed pistons are really light the pins are lighter too. Current bottom end is all stock replacement parts blueprinted ACL bearings, balanced etc. Rods and bolts stock, rods polished, pistons Sealed power rings hastings i use an oversize ring and gap them exactly.

If you go with a bigger bore piston .5mm/.75mm/1mm oversize thsi will increase your CR ratio as your pushing more fuel and air into the same size space, it is really worth getting forged pistons as cast ones will only last 15K at revs upto 7.5-8K if you limit to 7K they seem to last twice as long so far done 20K and not put a hole in them, but forged would last at least 50-70K and you would have higher CR ratio too. If you can only afford cast pistons then the block can be shaved .25-.5mm and the head can go max 1.5mm but 1mm for longer service life, this will increase the CR a little but if you flow the chambers this will only bring you back upto a near stock CR ratio about 9.5:1 if your not too over zealuous with the chambers, but you really do gain more power from flowing the chambers than increasing the CR ratio!! I've tried both!! The head with the welded chambers is not the way to go!! IF you look at all the big power producing heads the chambers are all symetrical and are designed for flow not minimal CC.

Block i'm working on, will have eagle rods, with titanium pistons pins, forged pistons custom made to 11.5:1 CR ratio, bore size of 83mm plus extra clearance for the forged pistons, total seal gapless top rings, ACL bearings again, CM ally flywheel with AP pressure plate and ACT 6 puck disc, and have found a U.K guy who specializes in solid copper headgaskets about £80-100.

BTW my A20/A18 hybrid with 82.75mm bore puts down around 200bhp depending on cam and ignition timing, this is with moddified stock cast manifold, stock ignition (just use good leads and Nology plugs), stock hood no cold air feed yet, i have a spare and i'm making a huge induction scoop and air box to directly feed the Webers/ITB's for the future. The car in springs is going to an exhaust specialist and is having a totally custom race system designed and fitted, long primary 4-2-1 with 2.5" main pipe at the moment got a 2.25" stainless steels setup but the manifold downpipe is bottlnecking as it was poorly made and the tubes are too small as well goes into a main pipe size of 2" then upto 2.25" after the join which is crap.

The best way to see big power gains, is to improve the head flow, the inlet system, exhaust system, and fit the biggest inlet valves you can, that is the most important thing, Hayabusa engine uses 33mm inlet valves and their good for upto 220bhp before they need changing.

I believe i was the first person to do this mod and also i believe i'm the only person to have fitted 33mm inlet valves sean only went upto 32mm. The exhaust valves aren't as important their still big enough just port out that guide and the material around the guide, if you make the port completely symetrical this will help improve the exhaust gas exit and gain more power. For those who might think i've made all this up, if you goto my cardomain site it has a picture of my head on their of both types the ET1 with stock valves and A18 with 33mm inlet valves you will soon see the huge difference in size!!

Hope this is of some help, the mods i do are within the cheapest budget that i can spare without severly impacting durability, i've also built around 10 of these engines now and tested them all to destruction and i've never bent a rod!! Yet ;0) Weakest link are the pistons to be honest!! valve train is good for 8K easy although the cam bearings take a huge bashing is you use strong springs so allways use good oil and use ZX1 xtralube, i find that if i take of valve train and re-check fit, remove cam, check wear and re-polish with fine wet and dry and a polishing mop on a dremel brings back to new every 15K or so helps out if you leave for too long may need new cam bearings machined in and a new camshaft as well. 200+bhp engines require more regular maintenance and servicing then normal engines but keeps you busy!!

[Oldblueaccord]

Sorry, my mistake. I misspoke. First off, I grew up on v8s... my first car was a 68 Charger with a 383/hurst 4 spd, so I'm still fairly new to all this honda stuff. Secondly, your right about strokers, I was just trying to get the point across that hte piston is going to be traveling farther in each RPM, meaning it's traveling faster, meaning more stress on the bearings.


I was responding to Smufguy. you I love keep it up.


wp

[Oldblueaccord]

Name: JUN Super Lemon Civic
Chassie: (EK4)
Motor: B16 (stroked to 1842 cc)
max Power: 257 hp at 8100 rpm
Compression ratio: 12.4:1
Internals: 1.8L crank, pistons and connecting rods (pistons, rods and cams are Jun originals)

Search for its video online you will find it if you want more proof. I have the video of it.

It cannot happen?? Dude it can, change your mind.

F1 cars are all under regulations of many sort. And their technology and achievement does not mean its their peak or thats the limitations. When something is bound by rules and governing regulations, it cannot be subjected to as the limit for every single car out in the rest of the world.


Jun motor on a budget LOL now thats the funniest thing you have said in a while. We never said cant we are just saying its very hard and very expensive. And a B16 aint a a20 talk about apples to oranges.


wp

[Oldblueaccord]

Right everyone else has had a go heres what i've developed over the last 5 years.

33mm inlet valve conversion using exhaust valves turned down to a nicer shape and 33mm size, existing valve spring platforms and exhaust valve retainers and springs from exhaust can be used on the inlet side, the standard seals are still able to be used, i had the machinist reem out the old guides to the new size which saves having to fit new ones as well. The most expensive bit was getting the valves machined down to a nice shape and getting the necks narrowed at the port end, apparantly the O.E Honda Exhaust valves are super strength stainless steel type possibly even forged he had a job cutting them down and went through quite a few bits to do 8 of them, so might be easier/cheaper to get some custom made to the same specs. I liked this mod cause i had loads of exhaust valves knocking around, as well as loads of springs and their all double springs as well, after some mucking about with different types settled for a combo of A20 outer spring with A18 inner spring the ultimate would be A18 springs all round but with teh duration cam i was using this was unnessary and would have had too much frictional losses. Was using 275 degree cam and a 285.

The next big problem was valve seat cutting, with a 33mm valve the stock seats can just about be used but life may be limited done 20K and so far no problems, depends really howmuch you port the inside of the seats out if you just take them out 1mm-2mm not a problem but i bored mine out as far as possible as i wanted to gain the most from going up 3mm in size on the valves. Now the head i used was A18 which has smaller chambers, the reason i chose this was to initialy raise the CR ratio, but after 3 years of development this was leading to problems with gasket faliure, and also detonation problems, i then proceded to go back to the Honda designed hemispherical design, i bored out the chambers to match exactly the bore size, and then proceeded to flow the chambers so that i would gain extra power from being able to shift more air in and out the chambers, this worked out better, the valves all have more room to breathe, theirs no lips around the valve seats hindering flow, and no edges around the gasket to produce excess pressure, the chambers after flowing were all cc'd matched and then given a good polishing.

I chose the A18 head as the design of the ports give the engine quite a bit or torque and also had a setup of webers allready ready on an inlet manifold that was made for A18 by Autoquip, this was ported and flowed to the max port size was 45mm at carb end funneling down to around 40mm at the inlet port side, the carbs were also modded with some nice little tweeks to improve flow 42mm choke size and countersunk butterfly screws as well as all flash casting and imperfections cleaned up and polished out.

Thats the head sorted out started using 285 cam but found that with 33mm inlet valves this cam is way to big and the head bottlenecks up severly at 6000rpm where as before it would rev strong to 7.5K with 30mm valves. With the 275 cam found that this transformed the engine produced extra power everywhere from low down upto the top end with a little cam retard was making excellent power all the way to 6.5-6.75K and would still pull to 7K strongly in 4th.

If you wanted more revs and BHP then A20 head would be the way to go, but if you wanted 33mm inlet valves and high durationo cam you would need some porting work, but also you would need ITB's or Carbs with a minimum of 45mm bore ideally 50mm would fly, this is what i'm working on at the moment, just built up a spare engine using ET1 with Webers as a comparison going for Torque, then this year started on the Killer A20 33mm inlet valves custom, headwork by me, 295 cam with 11.5mm lift B16 ITB inlet manifold from Jenvey with either 50mm ITB's or some seriously large bike carbs 45+mm and that should be good for 250bhp with a bottom end using forged high CR ration pistons, at the mo using Sealed power cast pistons with a really low CR ration A20A1 spec. 11:1 would make it really fly!!

As for the block i've found that using stock rods is not a problem, i've used them on engines regualrily turning 8K in race use and as long as you get the polished and use new rod bolts from Honda or get ARP ones machinied to fit, these should not be an issue, but i've not tried them on Honda pistons which are heavier the sealed pistons are really light the pins are lighter too. Current bottom end is all stock replacement parts blueprinted ACL bearings, balanced etc. Rods and bolts stock, rods polished, pistons Sealed power rings hastings i use an oversize ring and gap them exactly.

If you go with a bigger bore piston .5mm/.75mm/1mm oversize thsi will increase your CR ratio as your pushing more fuel and air into the same size space, it is really worth getting forged pistons as cast ones will only last 15K at revs upto 7.5-8K if you limit to 7K they seem to last twice as long so far done 20K and not put a hole in them, but forged would last at least 50-70K and you would have higher CR ratio too. If you can only afford cast pistons then the block can be shaved .25-.5mm and the head can go max 1.5mm but 1mm for longer service life, this will increase the CR a little but if you flow the chambers this will only bring you back upto a near stock CR ratio about 9.5:1 if your not too over zealuous with the chambers, but you really do gain more power from flowing the chambers than increasing the CR ratio!! I've tried both!! The head with the welded chambers is not the way to go!! IF you look at all the big power producing heads the chambers are all symetrical and are designed for flow not minimal CC.

Block i'm working on, will have eagle rods, with titanium pistons pins, forged pistons custom made to 11.5:1 CR ratio, bore size of 83mm plus extra clearance for the forged pistons, total seal gapless top rings, ACL bearings again, CM ally flywheel with AP pressure plate and ACT 6 puck disc, and have found a U.K guy who specializes in solid copper headgaskets about £80-100.

BTW my A20/A18 hybrid with 82.75mm bore puts down around 200bhp depending on cam and ignition timing, this is with moddified stock cast manifold, stock ignition (just use good leads and Nology plugs), stock hood no cold air feed yet, i have a spare and i'm making a huge induction scoop and air box to directly feed the Webers/ITB's for the future. The car in springs is going to an exhaust specialist and is having a totally custom race system designed and fitted, long primary 4-2-1 with 2.5" main pipe at the moment got a 2.25" stainless steels setup but the manifold downpipe is bottlnecking as it was poorly made and the tubes are too small as well goes into a main pipe size of 2" then upto 2.25" after the join which is crap.

The best way to see big power gains, is to improve the head flow, the inlet system, exhaust system, and fit the biggest inlet valves you can, that is the most important thing, Hayabusa engine uses 33mm inlet valves and their good for upto 220bhp before they need changing.

I believe i was the first person to do this mod and also i believe i'm the only person to have fitted 33mm inlet valves sean only went upto 32mm. The exhaust valves aren't as important their still big enough just port out that guide and the material around the guide, if you make the port completely symetrical this will help improve the exhaust gas exit and gain more power. For those who might think i've made all this up, if you goto my cardomain site it has a picture of my head on their of both types the ET1 with stock valves and A18 with 33mm inlet valves you will soon see the huge difference in size!!

Hope this is of some help, the mods i do are within the cheapest budget that i can spare without severly impacting durability, i've also built around 10 of these engines now and tested them all to destruction and i've never bent a rod!! Yet ;0) Weakest link are the pistons to be honest!! valve train is good for 8K easy although the cam bearings take a huge bashing is you use strong springs so allways use good oil and use ZX1 xtralube, i find that if i take of valve train and re-check fit, remove cam, check wear and re-polish with fine wet and dry and a polishing mop on a dremel brings back to new every 15K or so helps out if you leave for too long may need new cam bearings machined in and a new camshaft as well. 200+bhp engines require more regular maintenance and servicing then normal engines but keeps you busy!!


This needs to be a sticky arcived or something. This is what we are talknig about and buddy your doing it. :thumbup:

I would resaerch the total seal rings in the end I never here anything good on them but what they tell you. I think with short ring lands they flutter bad at high RPM.

I kinda figured that our block could goto 83mm thats a pretty standard size I believe.

Maybe you could share some head flow numbers and stuff so the rest of the peanut gallery can learn something.

Also maybe you could provide a price list for us dreamers out here to think about.

Again thanks for writing that down.

wp

[Chicane]

Name: JUN Super Lemon Civic
Chassie: (EK4)
Motor: B16 (stroked to 1842 cc)
max Power: 257 hp at 8100 rpm
Compression ratio: 12.4:1
Internals: 1.8L crank, pistons and connecting rods (pistons, rods and cams are Jun originals)

Search for its video online you will find it if you want more proof. I have the video of it.

It cannot happen?? Dude it can, change your mind. .

Dude, it can't. All engines are simply a way to convert fuel to power, and what you're talking about is impossible. PLUS, the Jun Civic doesn't have a 1.8 liter from what I can tell. I've searched for it. Where is it?

http://www.junauto.co.jp/democar/index.html?en

I don't see a civic. I found a Jun yellow civic with a B18 2.1 Liter here:

http://asia.vtec.net/bmi/bmi4/

If we apply the equation with 2.1 liters and a redline of 8.1k, and making 250hp, we get a mep of 14.7, which is under the limit of 15 and achievable for a race engine. Like I said, I know this mep stuff fairly well. Your specs were wrong.

- Chicane

[Chicane]

Jun motor on a budget LOL now thats the funniest thing you have said in a while. We never said cant we are just saying its very hard and very expensive. And a B16 aint a a20 talk about apples to oranges.


wp

No, I am saying cant. You cannot make 250hp from a 1.8 liter engine with a redlin of 8.1k rpms.

[rjudgey]

would be hard i reckon too, but personally if on a all out budget K20A kicks arese 86x86 bore stroke ratio, also means you can fit some seriously large inlet valves 35-37mm and thats what gets you the power, unfotunately B16/B18 combo still stuck with max bore of 82mm max valve size would be 33mm maybe 34mm at a push. Their good engines but they've had their day, i'm sticking with my A20 good torque and not that heavy, less frictional losses due to simpler drivetrain.
Next Car/project is Ariel Atom weighs 500kg has race built and designed suspension and also comes equipped with Honda K20A in 160bhp type S spec 220bhp Type R spec and Jackson racing tuned package with 300bhp and a big fat supercharger give over 600bhp per ton power to weight ratio and all this on a car that comes all in at £30K the 160bhp one is £20K new as well!! I'll get a ex race series one with a shagged engine and start from their!! Need to find a garage first as it has no roof!! and my other two Hondas need saving from the water too!! Oh it's also faster than most bikes and not that much slower than a ferrari enzo round a track!! and howmuch does that cost!!

[A20A1]

When you say port out the guide... you mean remove what hangs into the port?
Feel free to hack up my image of a rusty head.
Honestly I'd be afraid to remove material from there but if it doesn't cause any mechanical issues I'll do it.

http://www.3geez.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3971
http://www.3geez.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3972

[A20A1]

This needs to be a sticky arcived or something. This is what we are talknig about and buddy your doing it. :thumbup:

I would resaerch the total seal rings in the end I never here anything good on them but what they tell you. I think with short ring lands they flutter bad at high RPM.

I kinda figured that our block could goto 83mm thats a pretty standard size I believe.

Maybe you could share some head flow numbers and stuff so the rest of the peanut gallery can learn something.

Also maybe you could provide a price list for us dreamers out here to think about.

Again thanks for writing that down.

wp


All in good time, all in good time. :deal:

[rjudgey]

cost wasn't that bad.

The guides cost me about £50 to re-size
Re-cut valve seats about £50 3 angle and i then radiused the edges myself
Exhaust valves re-machined/reprofiled £10 each X 8 +£80 new custom ones about £25 each X 8 £200
Cam re-profile from pipercams (the god of camshafts) £180
head shaved £40

Did all the port work and chamber work myself.
Sorry haven't had time to get some accurate figures done, i use a home made flowbench with a powerfull vacuum hoover, a funnel, and a weber air flow meter, i measure everything from the end of the inlet manifold to get more real world figures and also modding the inlet manifold makes a huge difference especially if it's a long runner, i use this cheap setup mainly so that i can see what works and also to balance each port close together, i would love to be able to afford a flowmasters bench but would rather spend it on engine parts or machining work!! All i can say is that it's very high well over 170cfm but more importantly flow isn't everything, with my new cam design i've been working on for the A18 and it's unusual inlet port layout i've managed to gain a huge amount of extra swirl and tumble so that the air and fuel really mix it up big style when entering the cylinder, this itself is giving me huge torque and power gains. I reckon that with the new cam, new designed exhaust system and header this engine should be good for 220-230bhp easy i might even give it a try with forged pistons with a High CR ratio, as fortunately when i get the monster A20 going the A18 head will still fit, i think it would be an interesting comparison especially as it only takes me about 2 hours to swap heads!!

[rjudgey]

that's the one you got it, get rid of that, use grinding disc to get rid of the guide end and some of the material around it, then use a round grinding stone to make it circular and symetrical, done it on 3 heads now, plenty of material down their never had a problem, only one thing maybe change the exhuast guide to bronze after your done, will last longer, the cast iron guides on these don't seem to last very long when using upgraded camshafts seem to get badly worn after 20-30K bronze are more accurate, tighter tolerance, cool the valve better as well and you can run them without seals which will help make the valve and guide last longer as better lubed, yes you will burn a tiny bit more oil but hey at least you'll re-build your head less!!
Send us an e-mail to [email protected] i'll send you a pic of what it should look like,depending on your mods you should see at least 5bhp gain the more you have the more you gain!! Same goes for the inlet ports as well but the A20 head is a lot better shaped than A18 and ET so not so much of a worry.

[rjudgey]

p.s if you go to preludepower.com theirs a thread called rjudgey's vids theirs a link to some videos i took over Crimbo time, it shows may car pulling from 70-silly speeds going up mainly a load of hills!! and then down a couple!!
nope don't worry found it for ya you may need adsl or a lot of patience their not too big!!
http://myweb.cableone.net/wkathol/150mphprelude.zip

[A20A1]

p.s if you go to preludepower.com theirs a thread called rjudgey's vids theirs a link to some videos i took over Crimbo time, it shows may car pulling from 70-silly speeds going up mainly a load of hills!! and then down a couple!!
nope don't worry found it for ya you may need adsl or a lot of patience their not too big!!
http://myweb.cableone.net/wkathol/150mphprelude.zip


I'll get it at school... I have 56k at home actually more like 14k :)

Oh I sent you an e-mail... I'm also adding the link to the video thread in racing stories.

[rjudgey]

i'll send you a pic no exhaust valve pics on my cardomain site.

[hondamanlxi]

im glad to see the thread turn into something useful! thanks alot guys, ive taken all of this into consideration and as soon as i have a game plan ill post it here

[smufguy]

Jun motor on a budget LOL now thats the funniest thing you have said in a while. We never said cant we are just saying its very hard and very expensive. And a B16 aint a a20 talk about apples to oranges.


wp

huh? where did i said that?

Chicane: i dont know what u searched for but if you typed in " jun yellow civic" the link i get is this http://fastpasses.com/exec.asp?Database=2656.16.3.0&viewRecord=10232276009649240/1093291359010237 save the video or what not and u will see it.

I gave the numbers what i saw on the video. So watch it and tell me if i am wrong,

rjudgey: Nice work man, i will keep ur work in mind defenitely. Awsome, get some pics up of ur work. I would love to see it :rockon:

[Oldblueaccord]

im glad to see the thread turn into something useful! thanks alot guys, ive taken all of this into consideration and as soon as i have a game plan ill post it here


Hope we didnt scare you off.

I question your goal of 10:1 compression. Usually upping the compression 1 point might give you 3% power gain and there is a break over point of course. Our cars prolly are around 9.0-9.3 measured Honda usually keeps things colse to the specs.

Read up all you can. Ask questions. Pay attention to what other motor builders are doing even the Chevy guys. You can learn something.


wp

[rjudgey]

not done the maths yet to work it out, not a strong point of mine unfortunately, i just try it and see how it goes on the road and dyno, fortunately i have onbaord electronics that give me same reall handy data which i can download onto my P.C.
But at a guess i think that the CR ratio would be lucky to be at 9 i think it might even be high 8 which is probably why i'm getting really good torque, mind you good for turboing though!! Thought about using Honda pistons again but they just cost so much and they are heavier too, i could use lighter pins which would reduce the weight a little, i think the extra weight could be due to the thicker crown for the higher CR, the sealed power pistons have quite a deep dish in the crown, Head hasn't had much shaved off and the chambers have had a lot taken out, block has had a minimal skim nothing major, i think with a Higher CR it would definately gain alot more bhp considering it's allready pumping out 200bhp allready it's just going to amplify it even more. But more concerned about exhaust manifold and system, might even look into a side exit with single silencer, or straight down the middle out the back, not sure but definately need bigger pipes and a 2.5" main bore what ever happens!! I think if i want to increase rpm and increase the service life of the block, typically 15-20K using cast pistons i'm gonna have to use forged.

[A20A1]

huh? where did i said that?

Chicane
rjudgey: Nice work man, i will keep ur work in mind defenitely. Awsome, get some pics up of ur work. I would love to see it :rockon:
I got some pics from him.. I'll post them if it's okay with rjudgey

[Chicane]

huh? where did i said that?

ChicaneI gave the numbers what i saw on the video. So watch it and tell me if i am wrong,


The video is wrong. There is know possible way to make 250hp from 1.8 liters at only 8.1k rpms. It's impossible. If it was boosted or using nitrous then sure, but not NA.

[smufguy]

MIke: That would be awsome.



The video is wrong. There is know possible way to make 250hp from 1.8 liters at only 8.1k rpms. It's impossible. If it was boosted or using nitrous then sure, but not NA.

lol :bowrofl:

[Chicane]

:alc:

[A20A1]

Hey hey hey my spidey sense is going off. :lol:

Try and move this thread back to building 200hp NA with the A20... it doesn't matter if it's possible or not, every little bit of info helps.
We don't need to hear about JUN's numbers or hear the pitter patter of little MEP's running thru our thread.

Just suggestions on what is affordable and or makes good NA power for the A20. :D

[Chicane]

What makes good NA power for the A20? Another A20 in the trunk. :P

Seriously though... MEP is handy for calculating expected output if you change the redline, stuff like that... it also helps you find out what the limits are. I think EFI with a nice free flowing exhaust will do the most. Aside from that, you're going to need to spend some bling with a headshop equipped witha flow bench.

[AccordEpicenter]

or you could say fuck it and go turbo for more power without all the head work/cost

[Chicane]

or you could say fuck it and go turbo for more power without all the head work/cost

Undoubtedly the cheaper and easier alternative... but ... some people will do whatever they want to do anyway. :) it's their money...

[AccordEpicenter]

pretty much. I personally dont like nitrous oxide because of refilling the bottle and i personally feel that its harder on parts than turbo. I like turbo over N/A because turbos build torque, and torque makes fun

[rjudgey]

well Turbo setup is good for drag racing or light racing on street, but on the track a turbo setup would give toomuch torquesteer and upset the balance of the car. Also more of a challenge building a N/A engine but i like building engines, turbo is easier, but the great thing about N/A is no turbo lag!!

[A20A1]

May I post your pics rjudgey?

[ryotto]

wait, correct me if im wrong but that civic your talking about might have a higher redline than 8.1k rpm.
it makes 257 HP @8,100 rpm but it might not redline at 8,100 thats just where it makes peak power. so the engine might accully redline at 8,500, 8,600 rpm? i dont know

[Chicane]

Well, the MEP equation I stated is rough. I use redline, but you can also use the RPM at which point peak power occurs. either way, you're not going to get past the 15 limit of MEP. If it makes 257 up out of 1.8 liters with a mep of under 15, it's going to need to make the peak power (which is usually redline) at 9.58k rpms, .... so again, it won't work.

- Chicane

[thegreatdane]

It doesnt matter where the redline is... he could have it at 15.000rpm for that matter.


Rjudgey, I'm looking forward to get some work done on my own engine. Sounds like you've got some neat plans for your own engine too. I've got a lot of expences at the moment which is postponing the project a little.

[AccordEpicenter]

have you guys ever seen when Endyn made a built Cr-Vtec engine that was doing over 300hp NA at like 10.5KRpm?

[Oldblueaccord]

have you guys ever seen when Endyn made a built Cr-Vtec engine that was doing over 300hp NA at like 10.5KRpm?

The old one. I used to read his stuff but there some pretty tall tales. I dunno did they ever produce that super charger that like ran 23 psi on a stock motor with traction control and all that they kept talking about?? it but i never heard about a kit. It was alway "were to busy to mess around with stuff likethat" that made me smell..... well shit to be frankly.


posta link I wanna brush up on his jibber jabber.


wp

[A20A1]

....
http://www.theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/

??
?
?
?

[Oldblueaccord]

....
http://www.theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/

??
?
?
?


400 hp on a b-18 17-23 psi himm I might have the money nexy year when i sell my house.... :thumbup:


wp

[smufguy]

Chicane: Sorry to bug you again, but what are the units you are using? is it in KPa or psi? 15 what?

Here is the text book version of the limits, for a NA motor the bmep valves range from 850 to 1050 kPa (125 to 150 psi) at the rpm where max torque is achieved and for max power rpm its about 10% to 15% lower. For turbo motors, its 1250 to 1700 Kpa (180 to 250 psi) For non intercooled. and For intercooled motors, it can be upto 1400 KPa.

Here is for our motor @4000 rpm where we make peak torque. and @ 5500 where we make peak power. Disp is 1955 cc (119.301 cid)

@4000 :: mep (psi) = 120 * 2 * 396000 / (119.301 * 4000) = 199.160 psi
@5500 :: mep (psi) = 120 * 2 * 396000 / (119.301 * 5500) = 144.844 psi.


for the Jun ciivic at the peak power output, ((( Do note that this value is 10 ~ 15% less that the peak torque value. ))
@8100 :: mep (psi) = 257 * 2 * 396000 / (112.406 * 8100) = 223.555 psi

What is the point of the post? text books evaluations are limited to certain conditions, and when someone builds a motor, they can break all those rules in the book. This might seem impossible, but its possible. Its Science that MEP increases as compression ratio increases give the same motor. regardless of the displacement, a motor with a compression ratio of 10:1 having a mep of 146.488 psi which is within the limit can produce a mep of 155.916 psi if its compression ratio is increased to 12:1. So Chicane, stop saying its impossible alright? LOL you just dont have convincing proof to stand by it bro. Keep in mind, nothing is impossible. ;)

[Chicane]

Chicane: Sorry to bug you again, but what are the units you are using? is it in KPa or psi? 15 what?

Neither. I'm using HP/ (displacement (in liters) * redline(in thousands, so 7500= 7.5))= X

X is not exactly mep, but it's related to it. It's a good easy way of judging and engine's efficiency, and THUS FAR IN HUMAN HISTORY, no naturally aspirated engine has eclipsed the theoretical 15. I originally went to school for engineering and then changed my mind, so I have a lot of math and science in my background, but more importantly, and lot of friends still in the field. One of them has given me this equation. If you have an engine that you think is magically efficient, plug YOUR numbers into this equation. If you get over 15, something is bunk- double and triple check your numbers. If you still get over 15, please post it here, as i'm sure he'd like to be the first in the automotive engineering world to introduce an engine that beats the 15 mark.

Regards,
Chicane

[Oldblueaccord]

http://www.junauto.co.jp/products/complete-engine/b16-b18/data/index.html?en


JUN motor specs.

450,000 yen for stroker kit for the 2.2 nissan motor is the only price I can find. LOL wow how cheap. Oh yeah thats with there rods of course. :ugh:


wp

[smufguy]

chicane: all equations that involve units will pull out units in the answer. only ratios and constants (like Reynolds Number) dont have units. I am a graduated Mechanical engineer and i have taken a 6 month course in Internal combustion engine. I will be an automotive engineer in about 5 years once i get all my experience and requirements (experience) done. I dont know if you know about drag motors and their power output, but they do pull out crazy numbers and turbos put out 4 digit hp numbers on a 4 cyl, beats all text book calculations. So yeah, its already been done and maybe your friend does not know it yet, or he would like to be the first to have it have it on public cars driven everyday.

[Chicane]

>sigh< NO IT HASNT. First off, that equation does put out something in units, I'm just not sure what. All I know is that there is not an internal combustion engine that will get over the magical 15 number. Don't believe me ? Try it. Go find ANY naturally aspirated engine and plug the numbers in. Go ahead. Get back to me hwne you find one that's over 15.

[smufguy]

Dont believe you? Well i dont, without proper proof and relying on heresay of your friend. There are a lot of race bred na motors that we can try and find and plug your gustimation equation and get more than your magical 15. you just make me laugh Chicane. lol. well my work here is done.

[Chicane]

Give me an example if there are so many. This is a challenge or a bet, however you take it. Find me ONE engine that you can plug into my equation and come up with a number of over 15. It has to be naturally aspirated. If you don't come up with any, I rest my case.

[A20A1]

I though this was finished...