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SavageG
01-21-2005, 09:03 PM
I'm starting to plan my 250k mi engine rebuild and am hoping to get some information/advice. I if I can I want to get a moderate increase in HP and another 250k. Some of the things I want to put in are Diamond forged pistons, eagle forged rods and performance bearings. Other than these I am open to any suggestions other than turbo or an Engine swap.
I have herd mixed information on out head. Are our Valves Stainless? Also, if I went with a higher compression like 10.5 or 12.1, could the ECU compensate on 95 octane gas?
Right now I'm at 243,500 so hopefully I've still got 3-4 months before I do this

AccordEpicenter
01-21-2005, 10:32 PM
youd need a piggyback computer at least id think for 12.1... i dont think you could run it on anything less than 94 and even then im not sure youd get away without pinging. Stock honda bearings are some of the highest quality ones you can get. The stock valves arent stainless either. Diamond forged pistons and eagle rods are overkill except for high boost or nitrous or n/a to like 8000 rpm.

Justanothermike
01-21-2005, 11:52 PM
if u want something to last 250k use oem parts.

rjudgey
01-22-2005, 02:48 AM
no i disagree.
Honda parts for the money are crap, used them tried them not very good compared to the cost of high quality manufacturers, i'd go with ACL bearings or Clevette which are ACL re-badged, then use AJUSA gaskets or 2nd choice Felpro, Forged pistons are the way to go as they will last for ever where as cast ones don't especially if you do give it a bit of welly every now and then, but don't go higher than 10:1 CR ratio otherwise Detonation will be a huge issue with 10:1 you will have to use 94-95ron octane fuel if you want higher your gonna need 98-100ron which here in the U.K you can get but i thnkis a bit of a rarity where you are. Hastings or sealed power rings are good, also if you can get lighter piston pins that will help, less weight equals less wear on the bearings and rods also better performance as well. For reliability get a crank fired and custom ECU setup, that way you can fuel the engine perfectly and get a much more upto date system, with the right fueling the engines gonna last much longer, if you run too lean or too rich it will seriously shorten the engines life!! Also replace all the rockers, new rod's so might as well look at eagle rods, Arp bolts, head bolts or even convert to studs, full engine balance with it pre-assembled is best but at least get the pistons and rods match balanced and the crank and flywheel balanced together, don't do the clutch plate as if you plan on doing 250K they;ll be replaced a few times so it will throw it our later on anyway!! Perfectly balanced engine will really cut down on bearing wear!! Also modding the oil ways, the pickup pipe can be made larger and more of a rounded lip on it, crank can have the oil holes chamfered, and also the oil pump replaced with a TOGA high oil volume, and that should really help too, also using the right oil don't use anything too thin, start off with a cheap mineral oil 10/40w to bed in do 600-1000K miles then change to 5/40 or 10/50 oil semi sythetic and change every 3K or use a fully sythetic and change every 5K but i reckon if you used a mid range oil and change it every time you check the oil and it starts getting black will make your engine last a long time!! Also get your box re-built too and get the tallest 5th gear you can get if your gonna be doing loads of motorway miles the lowest revs that you can constantly cruise at is going to be best!!
Also get an oil pressure gauge fitted can be a real life saver sometimes!! Also air to oil cooler for engine helps if you live in a hot climate and get one with a thermostat for winter use. With all that lot should last for ever!! And even if your rings wear out you should be able to just pull the pistons out and re-ring the block and off you go again!!
P.S have built over ten of these engines biggest weak links are cheap bearings and also cast pistons, but also poorley built engine which hasn't been built to the right tolerances will not last long!! Bearing clearances and piston to bore clearance, piston ring gaps all need to be spot on or your hard earned cash won't last long!!

SavageG
01-22-2005, 10:49 AM
rjudgey, Thanks for all the great parts info. AccordEpicenter, "Overkill?" I want to put in the best that there is, mainly for peace of mind. I try not to make 7000rpm a habit, but its nice to have it there when you want it. I don't think that stock Honda parts are bad, I'm just saying forged is better. Would going with stainless valves be worth the effort?
I am leaning towards the 10.5 pistons, but might give this up in favor of stock compression forged. Remember, this will be a 35-40k MI per year car.

AccordEpicenter
01-22-2005, 10:51 AM
just remember, build this engine to your goals and objectives, because an engine specifically built for forced induction will have differnt clearnances than one used for all motor or nitrous...

SavageG
01-22-2005, 10:59 AM
Mainly I'm looking to make the ultimate bulletproof engine. Any HP gains that I can achieve without comprising that are welcome. I have no plans to do any FI on this engine.

Justin86
01-22-2005, 11:22 AM
then stick with mostly stock parts and save your money. If you don't race this car and it's just a daily driver then why spend some much and parts that you never use to there max potential.

Justanothermike
01-22-2005, 12:20 PM
everything sounds good except the forged pistons. forged pistons will not last 250k. forged pistons have a higher expansion rate then the cast oem ones. but then again it really depends on the sillicon content in the pistons. some forged pistons like arias will slap like crazy when they are cold and expand when they are warmed up. forged pistons won't last more then 100k

SavageG
01-22-2005, 02:29 PM
Not race it!!? True, I don't plan to make this a race car but having an engine built well enough to race would be nice. It's always felt sort of risky taking it past redline. If I'm on the wrong path here, make some suggestions about things that WOULD be good.

carotman
01-23-2005, 11:16 AM
Just buy a low mileage JDM A20A... it will last up to 250k miles... and will cost a fraction of the price :p

those engines can be obtained for dirt cheap.

SavageG
01-23-2005, 02:14 PM
There's nothing wrong with my current engine. If I go with a stock rebuild I can get everything for around $350 + machining. It seems like (almost) everyone is saying that forged parts really aren't worth the extra expense for my situation.

Robs89LXi
01-23-2005, 08:59 PM
I don't think you are being very clear in what you are trying to achieve. You say you want a moderate increase in performance, and you want reliability (another 250K). What do you consider moderate? If you are talking about forged internals, then it leads us to believe that "moderate" must be quite a bit. A good intake/cam/exhaust setup will net you nice moderate increase in hp and torque, and you don't need forged interals for that. Honda parts are very good stock, but are expensive to replace in kind. You can get aftermarket internals though that are not as expensive as say Diamond, but will give you very good, reliable results. A good machine shop should be able to guide you on this, and apart from an overbore set and new bearings, just some good machine work would be all you need. Upping the compression to 12:1 will not bring you reliability, and is not in the realm of what I would call moderate, so again, try to clarify better what it is you are trying to attain.

SavageG
01-24-2005, 08:28 PM
Right now I figure I probably have around 115hp max. I have been thinking about a "moderate" increase in HP being in the 12-20 HP range. I haven't really been able to find est. HP increase for 10.5:1 on our car. But have found references to +-12.5 HP per 1 point. This would be around 17.5 HP w/ 10:5.
The main reason I was gunning for forged parts was that I have seen the diamond forged pistons w/ 10.5:1. And if I was going with forged pistons, why not get forged rods etc....
Basically what I'm hearing on the forged pistons is that because of the higher expansion ratio they will wear faster and that forged rods just aren't necessary. Since shaving the head and/or block isn't an option for our engine, any suggestions?

smufguy
01-26-2005, 07:38 AM
savage, here is the thing. Since you want moderate hp increase with very little money spent, here is what you can do.

1) full stock engine rebuild
2) port and polish the head with new valve guides and seals
3) differet lift and duration cam shaft (cam grind)
4) high compression piston (if you badly want)
5) stock rods (the reason is, these are forged from the factory, just get new rob bolts and sine u dont wanna go for high rpm or forced induction, these do the job right)
6) high flow injectors and fuel pump and adjustable fuel pressure regulator (if you want more power)
7) aftermarket ignition system (accell, crane or msd) and some good insulating wires

These mods will give you considerable increase in power and 20whp increase is something i think you might get out of these. also, running full ignition advance gives you more power too, so do that and always raise up the fuel pressure when u do that.

i hope u have full exhaust, cause that is somethin u will defenitely need.

bigbrat41
01-27-2005, 02:41 AM
in reading this thread i have read several comments about "aftermarket" parts.
Who, what, where??????
i just, last night received an e-mail from Diamond saying "we do not make parts for your engine".
i am waiting on a reply from Eagle.
i too am planning a bottem end rebuild. i eventually plan on adding NOS and some bracket racing, maybe a"midnight" race or 2, but mainly i want STRONG.
those of you who suggest other parts , PLEASE list manufacturers and parts numbers please as my search is going nowhere fast. :cool:

mykwikcoupe
01-27-2005, 06:36 AM
just because they dont makeit doesnt mean they wont. it only means they dont have any on the shelf and itll cost a little bit more to do. When your serious about it send them one of your pistons or rods and let them know what you want. they will first run it by any original on the shelf items to see if it can be modded to fit like making the king pin larger from 19-21 like many other hondas. Theyll do it its just more hassle.