forged crankshaft

[Chadroper]

does anyone make a forged crankshaft for the A20A3 engine. Arn't ours cast.

[Chadroper]

the perfect engine would be a closed stainless steel block, stainless steel valves, rods, and head, titanium pistons, stainless steel valvetrain parts

[AccordEpicenter]

our crankshafts are forged man

[Justin86]

but they are not billet. :D

[Oldblueaccord]

the perfect engine would be a closed stainless steel block, stainless steel valves, rods, and head, titanium pistons, stainless steel valvetrain parts

SS block lol uh no.

Better do a little research on your metals bub your way off on all of these.


wp

[AccordEpicenter]

SS block lol uh no.

Better do a little research on your metals bub your way off on all of these.


wp

[mykwikcoupe]

billet is the way to go but ubercostly. I was looking at one for my tbird to do a 4.2l stroker out of a 3.8l supercoupe. the billet crank was about a grand.

[Neuspeed87lx]

i paid a 1000 bucks for the crankshaft in my civic ... isnt the stock crank in the a20s stong enough for most applications ?

[AccordEpicenter]

the entire bottom end should be good to 400+ hp with forged pistons (Thats it, really) as long as you stick to the stock rev limit. If you exceed 7krpm alot youre gonna need rod bolts and maybe stronger rods, it depends.

[Justin86]

oh yea you don't see to many people breaking honda cranks, better chance of putting a rod through the block.

[Chadroper]

I thought our rods, pistions, and crankshaft were cast.

[SteveDX89]

i paid a 1000 bucks for the crankshaft in my civic ... isnt the stock crank in the a20s stong enough for most applications ?

Is it made of gold or something? Just about all Honda cranks are forged. You got shafted on that crank.


I thought our rods, pistions, and crankshaft were cast.

The pistons and rods are cast. The crank is forged.

[Chadroper]

dont all B series engines have billit crankshaft, forged rods and pistons, far sturdier than ours

[Chadroper]

i know it takes more force to pull a B series rod in half than ours. Also if you clamped onto the base of a b series block and tried to crush it, it takes more force to crush a b series block than an a series

[SteveDX89]

B series have cast pistons and rods. They also have forged cranks. An all aluminum block is not as strong as a cast iron block so I think a B series block would crush easier. But who goes around crushing blocks?

[Chadroper]

even thought ours are cast iron and iron is almost twice as strong as aluminum (per cubic inch) the B series block uses more cubic inches of aluminum so it is actually stronger

[Chadroper]

an aluminum block that is twice as thick as a cast iron block is stronger aluminum is stronger for its weight than iron. aluminum is 1/3 as heavy and about 5/8 as strong as iron. So if the aluminum block weighs 80% as much its far stronger.

[rjudgey]

the Crank and rods are both forged, i've raced with stock rods are are safe upto 8K you can get them shot peened and polished to add a little extra safety and also use new Honda rod bolts or get ARP ones and mod the rod to fit. The pistons are the week link they tend to only last 15-20K at 8K rpm.

[Chadroper]

our rods are cast you dont know what you are talking about. if you cut one in half you can see the metal grains

to make our rods they have a sand mold of a rod and pour in liquid metal. then after it cools they cut it in half and machine the part for the crankshaft end and wrist pin end, then they make the holes for the bolts

[SteveDX89]

an aluminum block that is twice as thick as a cast iron block is stronger aluminum is stronger for its weight than iron. aluminum is 1/3 as heavy and about 5/8 as strong as iron. So if the aluminum block weighs 80% as much its far stronger.

B series blocks are open deck so you have a huge void around the cylinder sleeves. Therefore the aluminum is not thicker in this case. I don't know the properties, etc. of metals but last time I checked iron is a stronger metal. Why would people who turbo B series get their blocks re-sleeved with cast iron sleeves if the original aluminum sleeves are stronger.

[Chadroper]

because the sleeves are thin, if it was a closed deck block it would be sturdier, the crankshaft part is sturdier than ours, cast iron is brittle and will break, aluminum will flex before it breaks

[rjudgey]

i don't know what i'm talking about?
Howmany 200bhp N/A Honda engines have you built then!!
Well i have had no reason to cut one in half, and from cast rods i've seen the Honda ones are ten times better quality, if it were cast i would have broken one by now!! I've had other engine builders tell me that thay aren't cast so i suppose they don't know what their talking about either!!! They may not be forged but their definately not plain cast.

[SteveDX89]

because the sleeves are thin, if it was a closed deck block it would be sturdier, the crankshaft part is sturdier than ours, cast iron is brittle and will break, aluminum will flex before it breaks

When the block is resleeved they use sleeves that are the same thickness as the alum. ones. They even use thinner ones for people who want a larger bore.

[system-f]

aluminum will flex before it breaks

far from true. I believe most manufacures use a lost foam casting method to cast aluminum engine blocks ( Honda started a lost foam plant in Morikawa, 1985) regardless the blocks are cast aluminum. Cast aluminum does give a little teeny tiny bit more than cast iron, but it is still VERY VERY brittle and has no problem cracking.

[Chadroper]

everyone i know with a b series engine says the block is strudier than ours

there is a reason they dont make a cast iron b series engine

[SteveDX89]

everyone i know with a b series engine says the block is strudier than ours

It's probably because they live the fantasy world where they think the B is the ultimate engine and nothing will ever be better. The B is a better engine than the A but as far as the block being stronger, the A wins that battle.

[Chadroper]

a B16 will always be able to make more torque than an A20 no matter what you do to the A20 and the B16 will also last longer making the same power

[rjudgey]

if i ain't broke one then they are very strong!! I think the B20A block is quite tough makes me laugh as Honda's selling point for B20A was that it was a more compact and lightweight design? It's bigger and weighs the same? If you strip the block down to just the basics it's lighter but with everything else inside it and on it it's just as heavy!!

[Chadroper]

basically the reason the made the A20 was it was cheap. its a disposable engine

[SteveDX89]

a B16 will always be able to make more torque than an A20 no matter what you do to the A20 and the B16 will also last longer making the same power

This is the funniest shit I ever heard. :bowrofl: :bowrofl: A high revving motor with a 77.4 mm stroke makes more torque than an A20 that has a stroke over 90 mm.

[rjudgey]

Yeah look who's talking poo now!! a 1.6 litre engine with short stroke is never going to make big torque numbers not without a massive blower on it!! My A18/A20 engine makes B16 seem positively asthmatic!!

[Chadroper]

the ones i know have 111 lb-ft

[Chadroper]

so if you put a B16 in our cars with our transmission it wouldnt even propel the car?

[SteveDX89]

the ones i know have 111 lb-ft

Wow, a correct statement. The B16 does have 111 lb-ft. The A20A1 (carb edition) has 109 lb-ft. The EFI model has about 10 more.


so if you put a B16 in our cars with our transmission it wouldnt even propel the car?

An A20 tranny will never bolt to a B16. I have a stock B16 in my Accord and it would whoop the shit out of any stock A20 out there.

Where do you come up with your information? Seems like it comes straight out of thin air?

[Chadroper]

if you could bolt them

[Chadroper]

so you just admitted it, the b16 haas more torque

[rjudgey]

torque is also produced by creating high speed velocity ports in the head and inlet manifold, head work really makes a difference depending on wether you want a torque monster or Bhp killer ideally you want an even mix of both which unfortunately you'll never get with a small cc Vtec. Their just like big bike engines!! Personally i'd like to have a go with a Suzuki Hayabusa engine 1.5 litre stroked versions can put down 230bhp use 33mm stock inlet valves and have 45mm throttle bodies!! Nice!! but not much torque but it's in a bike which weighs nect to nothing, a heavy car like Accord or Prelude needs torque to haul it's weight quickly, thats why Civics have B16 Integra has B18 and Accord has H22 etc.
111lbft is stock figures, doesn't take much to increase that, also depends on which version A20 and country. Compare that to a stock type 1.6 litre and 111lbft looks good, stock Vtec 1.6 just about puts out that and maybe a little more and thats a highly tuned lump.

[SteveDX89]

so you just admitted it, the b16 haas more torque

I admitted that one version of the A20 has less torque. However, you said a B16 would have more torque no matter what. That's BS. The reason my B16 Accord is faster than an A20 Accord is because of horsepower. All torque does is get you off the line. Once you're moving, HP is in charge. My 40 hp advantage becomes significant then. You need to learn more about engines and cars in general before you come on here posting like you know it all cause you're gonna get ripped apart, just like you did in this thread.

[rjudgey]

so when you gonna do a B18 crank swap!! Or you gonna Turbo that sucka!!

[AccordEpicenter]

The A20 is a torque monster, at the same hp levels, the A20 will always have more torque than a B16. The reason they went to aluminum blocks insnt for strength, its for weight savings. Our blocks are shit heavy but you should be able to pick up a B series bare block and walk around with it (100 ish pounds). People always talk smack about stuff they dont know anything about. Cast iron is much harder and stiffer than aluminum but aluminum doesnt flex that much more than cast iron, its very brittle and somtimes has problems with metal fatigue (develops cracks etc). BTW our rods look very close in build to B16/B18 rods (should be good to around 400hp). The b20a motor is pretty strong too but it is VERY DIFFERENT than a B16/B18/B20Z block. The only reason a B16 can sustain 9000rpm on a stock block with lil probs is because its destroked to 77mm, thats a far cry from 91mm stroke of the A series engine. The A series ringlands are also stronger than some B series engines too, but the cast pistons are the weak link in both engines. Without modification to the stock block ive seen B series sleeves fail at as little as 225whp, so trying to get 400hp out of a non modified stock block in a B series somtimes results in serious failures. Why do you think that the Toyota Supra's 2JZ engine (capable of 1000hp on a stock bottom end), 300ZX Twin Turbo VG30 motor and the 3000GT VR-4 twin turbo engines are solid cast iron blocks? Because cast iron is much much stronger/stiffer and it wears better than aluminum or steel because its harder.

[SteveDX89]

so when you gonna do a B18 crank swap!! Or you gonna Turbo that sucka!!

I'll never say! :)

[smufguy]

a little late to the thread but as jason was saying. Here is the info to get the records straight. Dont bother with the crankshaft. It can handle in raw form for upto 400hp easy. Its more than 95% of people here will be running anytime soon. If you wanna push even more and have it a track car, get it nitrated and ur good. Blocks are the same way. Our blocks are strong enough to push about 35 and more psi with no problem (just the block itself, head well u gotta work on it). Our cranks are forged and unlike the Stealth/300GT tt motors, its not nitrated from factory.

[Chadroper]

so how much power would it support if i had the crankshaft heat and cryotreated and shootpeened and nitrided, then if they nitrided the block

[AccordEpicenter]

smurf are you sure theyre not nitrided from the factory? I heard they were... oh well. I dont think youll need all those treatments but if you did them, sky's the limit... soo far this limit hasnt been found, 35psi boost and 8000 rpm hasnt been an issue yet... im not even sure hes running aftermarket rods, they might be shotpeened stockers (johnny O's car)

[rjudgey]

More than you'll ever need!!
You won the lottery? If not than don't worry about to get anywhere near to getting over 400bhp your gonna need to spend well into 5 figures i have just on a N/A build but know i've done the research it costs me well under £500 to build a new block and head as long as the parts are in serviceable condition.

[AccordEpicenter]

the problems with these engines is that the heads flow like ass compared to a B16/B18C... the bottom end is bulletproof. Getting big flow numbers it tough without alot of custom work. Plus its an old ass car with no aftermarket support, so everyone talks shit about it

[rjudgey]

Their not that bad, in fact the A20 and some of the earlier designs are very advanced, in fact in some ways their better, for a N/A car you have added advantage that theirs less frictional losses as you have only one cam to turn and 12 valves to push, you get the same flow figures as most 16 valve engines but less waste in power. The biggest weak point is the valve size, 2.0 litre high performance engine really needs at least 33mm size inlet you change that like i have which isn't hard to do your on track for an easy 200bhp with other mods. The actual ports on the A20 are pretty good and the combustion chamber is a nice hemispherical design too. The head has better flow potential than B20A but lacks the tuneablilty from altering the phasing of the two cams to find the sweet spot thats the only downside but with a enough money you could have several cams made with different lobe phasing but thats not ever going to happen, i expect King Motorsports know what the real secret figures are as they built race engines in the 2G ludes they had 340bhp N/A but they have so far been unwilling to share anything!!

[smufguy]

jason, our cranks are not nitrated.

our head is good on the exhaust side. they are awsome on the exhaust, intake and combustion chamber just sucks. The plug placement is totally out of the book for some reason. So yeah, fix the intake on the head, get it to flow and u will be okay.

[rjudgey]

I still think that the ET1 head is the best out the bunch for all round torque and Bhp figures the A20 is best for out and out Bhp and the A18 is excellent torque but less bhp. The ports on the A20 are fine seen a lot worse on other high performance engines, it's just Honda use really big valve seats and small valves!! The chambers well i think they work quite nicely after modding, maybe thats where your going wrong, i've done a lot of mods to my chambers where they flow a lot better than stock, i think people often think oh i'm not modding my chambers as i'll lower CR ratio from grinding out the metal, but the amount you loose from not having it flow as well is greater than loosing a bit of CR which can easily be made up by skimming the head and block and even using Higher CR pistons. As for the plug someone else mentioned that as well strangely enough but i can't think why it's so bad? it's near the middle the spark plug can be made to face open towards the two inlet valves? i know it's not as perfect as say a B20A or other DOHC engines but considering their not a lot of other places you could really put it i can't think why it's so bad? As with the valve seats i normally bore mine out at least another 1-1.5mm and then have a really thin seat 1mm 20degree top cut 1mm 45 degree cut and biggest 60 degree cut you can do with what ever is left, then just ever so slightly radius off the edge on the angles, just a quick rub with some wet and dry or with a bob on a grinder with some fine paper just to take the sharp edge off!! Same with the valves 1mm seat 20 degree backcut and smooth off the edges, but been experimenting with swirl patterns on the back of the valves to see if this helps mix the air and fuel, probably work better witht eh direct port injection engines or with guy's running really short inlet manifolds for ITB's and Webers, ideally high performance engine should have long inlet manifold as this will give better port velocity and also help mix up the air and fuel better before it enters the head. I'd like to maybe try and squeeze in some even bigger valves maybe try 34mm or even 35mm with new seats but the valves are getting very close to the edge of the chamber so not sure if i could get you seats put in but if it were possible 35mm inlets would really make it scream!!! but 33mm is good for upto 230bhp maybe a tad more if head is done to perfection!!
The other really big issue with these engines is that the manifolds are crap when you ditch the header and inlet systems and change to high performance products you really do get a massive jump in power figures and this is amplified from when you start mucking about with the head.

Enough of me rambling on just trying to big up the A20 it's not all bad!! Their's enough aftermarket support to get a good Bhp figure and like most engines the secret to really big Bhp numbers is in the quality of the head work and this is also where the majority of your money goes, which is why my engines will allways be better as instead of a machine shop only being to do a half descent job as they only get paid a set amount i can spend a whole month hell even three months sometimes porting and flowing my heads because all it costs me is time!!

[AccordEpicenter]

word the intake manifold flows like ass

[SQ is the SQUAD]

wow, where the hell is nate

[system-f]

[useless information]
You guys are confusing me with this B series talk (differences between the B20A and B16/18 series) As someone said the B20A and it's bigger/weaker brother B21A are VERY DIFFERENT..their stroke is actually so long they tend to eat rings.(the usdm motors do, never had problem with JDM b20's rings) When I pulled apart my 89 B20A5 motor a ring landing actually fell out of #3 piston. I ordered a JDM B20A motor which did have a bit more power out of the box on high test. The B20A motor and B21A motor both do not have an open deck, their deck has bridges that tie it to the block. *Also the B20A has cast iron sleeves where the B21A does not. To sum up B20A = MUCH more rigid block than the other B series motors, but long stroke, small bore = eats rings..lots of piston travel.

Someone said the B20A head flows worse than the A20 head? not sure, I do know at 5psi of boost I had a 71% increase in Horsepower and a 70% increase in torque with no intercooler, a fuel pump that was in adequate for the job, 10degree timing retard over stock, and an unhappy intake on my JDM B20A with stock internals. Those are very VERY good power increases especially for as ghetto as my turbo setup was. I did do some port matching on the head and 'flowed' it as good as possible with a dremel tool before install, but I doubt that had little to do with the ability for the B20A's head to flow better than stock.. also I used the USDM head on the JDM B20A block rather than the JDM's head since the USDM head had just been rebuilt.
[/useless information]

[A20A1]

The A20 is a torque monster, at the same hp levels, the A20 will always have more torque than a B16. The reason they went to aluminum blocks insnt for strength, its for weight savings...


I also heard that having an open deck allowed for closer tolerances to be machined... and aluminum is much easier to machine then cast iron.

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[AccordEpicenter]

yeah that is very true, because cast iron is sooo hard its more difficult to machine. Ill bet that the B series engines cylinders distort much more than ours do when the head bolts are torqued down. The B21A1 engine and B20A5 arent really known to be great motors at all. The B20A is much different than B20A5/B21A1 and B20Z