Stage 1, not what was expected!! Help

[FyreDaug]

Okay, I did the stage 1 carb vacuum remove. Success. However, the thermovalve or whatever only has 2 nipples, not 3. I broke of them off while I was pulling off a hose, but its plugged for now, I ran a T line to the other nipple to still get 2 connections.

I had to hook up the idle vacuum thing (cant remember name, 1 hose going into it) straight off the carb (I dont have the ABC thing, so it was 1 of those ports on the back) just to get the car to not idle at 3000rpm. But now it idles at ~2000 because "its not getting enough vacuum" to that solenoid thing to hold the idle back. The arm CAN move back more but it wont.

I have no idea where this screw that keeps getting refferred to for idle speed. I only know of the idle stop screw, which isnt helping because it doesnt even touch the screw it idles so high. Where is the screw to adjust the idle speed through the solenoid? Or how can I lower idle?

By the way, ive had some more problems with this mod and im no idiot with cars. Maybe those thermovalve things on the back of the intake manui arent working? I dont get vacuum to anything else when I connecct stuff to em...

[FyreDaug]

And when I shutu off the car it tries to keep running, like the timing is too advanced. Timing is at spec right now but it still does it. Why would it? Like after it turns off, it fires a couple more times, sometimes for 5 seconds.

[myaccord7]

i retarded of timing when i did my vacuum removal, i thought the "how to" says you should retarded your timing.



zach

[A20A1]

well don't double up on your thermovalve ports with "T's"... the specific ports are ment for that vacuum line alone. some are bleeds others hold the vacuum. If you fudge the vacuum routing it wont work right.

The idle control diaphragm is ment to be hooked to manifold vacuum, there are no solenoids in the diagram for it... if you have a check valve hooked up in line then make sure it's facing the right way.

You could have a vacuum leak
Or
you could have a bad adjustment on the idle screw.

If youy shut the car off above 1500 rpm then there is a good chance you can get some dieseling.

If you hooked up #25 along with #2 then you'll get more vacuum advance.

#2 is used primarily

#25 is just for cold advance... after that it doesn't get vacuum cause the thermovale cuts off it's supply. The diagram bypasses the thermovalve so the supply is constant.

The A/C idle boost will not move much at all.

Thermovalves are valves... they only act as a valve for the vacuum lines you have hooked to them... thermovalve on their own do not supply vacuum because they do not tap directly into the manifold... they are screwed into the manifold to recieve the coolant to operate the valve.

[FyreDaug]

Okay, I ran the connection to the idle solenoid directly off the manifold. One of the big ones I was supposed to plug. It idles now. I was having problems at 6000rpm though, its like it cut spark. Rev limitter like, but ive brought it past 6 before...

[FyreDaug]

Okay, my last reply was rushed. I dont have vacuum advanced hooked up at all right now. It just ~stock spec while it idles. Do you think the advance would fix the 6000rpm cut off? It definately pulls better now though.

Where is the air/fuel mixture screw? I dont have AC either. Im pretty much running any vacvuum off the manifold because I wasnt getting anywhere with the valves.

Ive got a bunch of other wierd things not included in the diagram for the mod. I made do with what I could and capped the rest, but ill track down my digicam tonight when I go home and shoot pics. I dont want to know where things go, I just need to know what they do, what they do with vacuum, and if they are capped, what happens. I'll ask later

EDIT: Hmm, this 6000rpm thing is wierd, it cuts off about 5750 unless I bring it up there slower. Under WOT, it will cut off...

[FyreDaug]

Oh and by the way, what does the float bowl vent look like?
EDIT: Sorry, can someone explain simply how the thermovalve works? Like, ,the 3 nipples on there, ,when the engine is fully warm do all 3 get equal vacuum? I ned to know because theres something I need to change.

[FyreDaug]

I guess I'll go ahead and make this a quad post here...

I changed a couple things, I ran a T off the big suction hose off the manifold, 1 still going to the idle diaphram and the second going to #2 advancee. Didnt make any noticable differencee at all, but I figured it should be connected. It idles great now, it even sat for 20-25mins and I "cold started" and it did start in high speed idle, which I didnt have before.

However, I dont know how well my actual cold start will go. Every single suction line on this car is run off the manifold, so no thermo crap or anything. I have 9 (I think) nipples not being used now, all for little things. I have picture, but I have to wait till I go home to put them online.

Also about that 6000rpm thing, somehow the float got turned down. I know I turned it down a bit (1/4 turn) after doing the vacuum mod because it was a little higher than I like to keep it (and I keep it just a little higher than it should be). And I adjusted it again, this time it went 3/4 turn just to get it at the spec line. It helped, it doesnt stop the car from acceelerating, but you can still feel a slight hesitation or something right at 6000. I dont wanna keep bringing it up there to see if something I changed worked because it has over 285000km on the factory engine, ,which is running strong to this day. All the engine needs is a valve tune up, they tick, so a slight adjustment is all.

Now back to my problem, since the diagram I looked at did fuck all and didnt work what so ever, Ive managed to get it working 100% with only having 1 thing the same on the diagram. I will get pictures online when I get home, theres a couple things I need to know. Thanks for the help.

[A20A1]

the thermovalve will supply vacuum to the choke opener to slightly open the choke... however at a certain point it is supposed to start bleeding vacuum and so it stops opening. Also there is a fast idle cam that can sometimes be disengaged by pushing the gas pedal to drop the idle, but there is also some vacuum assistace to the fast idle unloader.

There are many ways to run the carb with or without vacuum lines.

2 vacuum lines that you should keep is the power valve to manifold vacuum and the secondary advance line connected direct to the carb from the diaphragm... if you didn't convert to mechancal secondary. If you choose to remove all vacuum lines you'll simply be adding richness below 3,000 rpm because the powervalve will be always open... and as for the mechanical secondary that depends on you setting it up right.

There is no need to adjust the A/F screw unless you bog off the line... with proper vacuum advance.

As for the float... what is your idle speed when you adjusted it... and did you adjust it when fully warm.

As for the diagram not working... either point out the faulty vacuum routing(s)... or just don't use it. But it seems to me you went off course from the beginning or may not have had properly working thermovalves, so don't be so quick to blame the diagram... I made it as simple as I could... before then people were doing the mod without how-to's with diagrams without problems... then they bitched and wanted more functions like the choke... so I made a diagram to accomodate them...


One more thing... this is for US model accords... not all accords use the same thermovalves. Especially since you don't have the Air jet controller it makes me wonder... it would help to know if you have an A20A1 or A20A2... and where you live in the world.

[A20A1]

Oh and by the way, what does the float bowl vent look like?
EDIT: Sorry, can someone explain simply how the thermovalve works? Like, ,the 3 nipples on there, ,when the engine is fully warm do all 3 get equal vacuum? I ned to know because theres something I need to change.


#17 bleeds vacuum when the thermovalve is open... when the thermovalve is closed vacuum doesn't bleed and the diaphragm connected to the thermovalve gets full use of the vacuum.

[FyreDaug]

I like in Saskatoon, city in Canada. Its not a US model and it doesnt have AC. Alot of the things in the diagram are different on mine and Ive got pics. I hope you can help me by telling me what each thing is, what it does under vacuum and what happens when its plugged. They are circled in white.

Pic 1: (http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/show_image.pl?fg=000000&bg=FFFFFF&migration=1&image=http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/808000-808999/808617_4_full.jpg)
Top circled one: need help - what is it?
Bottom circled, broken piece. It has 2 nipples and 1 is broken. Didnt seem to have vacuum...

Pic 2: (http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/show_image.pl?fg=000000&bg=FFFFFF&migration=1&image=http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/808000-808999/808617_5_full.jpg)
What the hell is that component? I just plugged it because I wasnt sure if it vacuumed anything at all

Pic 3: (http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/show_image.pl?fg=000000&bg=FFFFFF&migration=1&image=http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/808000-808999/808617_6_full.jpg)
What are they and what do they do? Thermovalves or what?

Pic4: (http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/show_image.pl?fg=000000&bg=FFFFFF&migration=1&image=http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/808000-808999/808617_7_full.jpg)
Another pic of the broken nipple
And the 2 ABC ports on the back of the carb that are now plugged.

5: (http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/show_image.pl?fg=000000&bg=FFFFFF&migration=1&image=http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/808000-808999/808617_8_full.jpg)
What are the 3 circled things?
#1 in my pic goes to a T, that goes to idle diaphram and the always-dist advance (#2?)
and #2 in my pic (I think, going by memory, I cant remember by looking at the pic) goes to 18. Im PRETTY SURE. And just 1 18, just onto that thing (fast idle unloader?)

Pic 6: (http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/show_image.pl?fg=000000&bg=FFFFFF&migration=1&image=http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/808000-808999/808617_9_full.jpg)
Just showing ^^ said T junction

Any help is appreciated.

BTW: Idle speed was spec (~1000) and fully warm, fan was going on and off while I was doing it And I thought the A2 was EFI? Only the A1 was carbed? Or am I missing something? (EDIT: At your float bowl comment)

IMPORTANT NOTES:
When I was playing around with my car before, the high speed idle stopped working. It would idle 1600 for 2 seconds then drop back to 800-900 regardless of engine temp. But now everything works 100% like it did stock, it revs to 2200+ish cold, and when its still cold if I blip throttle it will go down to the diaphram speed set at 1200. Then once it warms up it will sit at 1000.

I just want to know what the things are that I plugged, and why my set up was so different than the diagrams..

[A20A1]

I like in Saskatoon, city in Canada. Its not a US model and it doesnt have AC. Alot of the things in the diagram are different on mine and Ive got pics. I hope you can help me by telling me what each thing is, what it does under vacuum and what happens when its plugged. They are circled in white.
I'm sorry I didn't add in that the diagram was ment for US model accords... I'll have to look over a canadian model vacuum diagram to make the appropriate adjustments.



Pic 1: (http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/show_image.pl?fg=000000&bg=FFFFFF&migration=1&image=http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/808000-808999/808617_4_full.jpg)
Top circled one: need help - what is it?
Bottom circled, broken piece. It has 2 nipples and 1 is broken. Didnt seem to have vacuum...
Well that plugged vacuum port is for VENTURI VACUUM... the diaphragm below it is the ACCEL PUMP DIAPHRAGM

The one with the 2 vacuum ports is a thermovalve.



Pic 2: (http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/show_image.pl?fg=000000&bg=FFFFFF&migration=1&image=http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/808000-808999/808617_5_full.jpg)
What the hell is that component? I just plugged it because I wasnt sure if it vacuumed anything at all
That is the fast idle unloader




Pic 3: (http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/show_image.pl?fg=000000&bg=FFFFFF&migration=1&image=http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/808000-808999/808617_6_full.jpg)
What are they and what do they do? Thermovalves or what?
The one pointing up is the THERMOWAX VALVE the one poiting towards the firewall is probably another THERMOVALE, just installed in a different location.



Pic4: (http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/show_image.pl?fg=000000&bg=FFFFFF&migration=1&image=http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/808000-808999/808617_7_full.jpg)
Another pic of the broken nipple
And the 2 ABC ports on the back of the carb that are now plugged.
Those are PORT VACUUM ports... they recieve the vacuum signal from the near the throttle plates... they are not related to the air jet contorller. Air jet ports will be at the top rear of the carb... not near the base.
The yellow valve is a THERMOVALVE



5: (http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/show_image.pl?fg=000000&bg=FFFFFF&migration=1&image=http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/808000-808999/808617_8_full.jpg)
What are the 3 circled things?
#1 in my pic goes to a T, that goes to idle diaphram and the always-dist advance (#2?)
and #2 in my pic (I think, going by memory, I cant remember by looking at the pic) goes to 18. Im PRETTY SURE. And just 1 18, just onto that thing (fast idle unloader?)
The larger vacuum port is to vent gas fumes from the float bowl.... the port next to it is to operate the vent diaphragm... the port on the far right of the pic is the VENTURI VACUUM PORT much like the one on the front of the carb used to operate the VACUUM SECONDARY... but the vacuum secondary Venturi vacuum port feeds from both barrels... that other port you have circled only feeds from the primary barrel so it's a bit weaker. Its good to plug it cause it will suck in unfilterd air into the carb... and also may affect the fuel mix. You wont notice much suction at idle from the venturi vacuum ports... they rely on the throttle being open to generate vacuum.



Pic 6: (http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/show_image.pl?fg=000000&bg=FFFFFF&migration=1&image=http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/808000-808999/808617_9_full.jpg)
Just showing ^^ said T junction
I dunno what to make of it... usually the choke opener will connect to the fast idle unloader with a "T" and the 3rd port will be used to connect to the thermovalve.



Any help is appreciated.

BTW: Idle speed was spec (~1000) and fully warm, fan was going on and off while I was doing it And I thought the A2 was EFI? Only the A1 was carbed? Or am I missing something? (EDIT: At your float bowl comment)

IMPORTANT NOTES:
When I was playing around with my car before, the high speed idle stopped working. It would idle 1600 for 2 seconds then drop back to 800-900 regardless of engine temp. But now everything works 100% like it did stock, it revs to 2200+ish cold, and when its still cold if I blip throttle it will go down to the diaphram speed set at 1200. Then once it warms up it will sit at 1000.

I just want to know what the things are that I plugged, and why my set up was so different than the diagrams..

A3 and A4 are EFI

[FyreDaug]

hmm, well I dont know if I have A1 or A2, ill go check right now.

Also, what should I change in regards to vacuum stuff? The way the fast idle unloader is plugged now, it wont drop down on its own? I dont think theres much I can do about that the way I have it set up. But that doesnt matter, it works, so when I go in it Ill blip the throttle. Should I open the float bowl vent?

And I have 2 things by my K&N, 1 I believe is the charcoal cannister (not hooked up properly right now) and another one that has (had) a check valve going into it with vacuum, and then another one going out. Not sure what it does, but its in the area of the filter in this pic (http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/show_image.pl?fg=000000&bg=FFFFFF&migration=1&image=http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/808000-808999/808617_1_full.jpg)

Thanks, very appreciated for all your help !

[A20A1]

You can still use press the throttle to disengage the fast idle... or it should work.

Right now you have no vacuum going to the fast idle unloader so it's not going to do anything.

once you remove the red fuel vapor hose that connects to the rear of the carb there isn't much need for the charcoal cannister... you'll nottice excess fuel vapor when you go to fill up gas if you plug the line on the firewall... if you leave that line open the water vapor may or may not be able to get into the tank which can cause problems. Also there will be no contorlling the fuel vapors from escaping the fuel tank.

I dunno about the pic I gott wait till I get home... is that how your secondary is set up now? you don't need the "T" just run the vacuum direct form the carb to the diaphragm.

[FyreDaug]

Well I have 1 line from the carb going into the cannister, but the line out is plugged right now... what SHOULD it be hooked up to? Carb vacuum?

The T is going to vac advance and idle diaphram. The secondary is run off the carb.

[FyreDaug]

Also, There is a vacuum line going into the cannister labelled pcv. Should that be hooked to constant vacuum?

[FyreDaug]

Oh and by the way, where else would the engine # be printed? Its not on a tag below the dist like this link (http://members.fortunecity.com/accordex87/engine.htm) says

[A20A1]

It should be where #8 points too. There isn't a different location for it. It may be covered in oil... it's carved into the metal... it isn't a sticker or anything like that. It's below the distibutor on the block.