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3gmodifier
05-16-2005, 10:02 PM
i am getting ready to fabricate a rear motor mounted turbo for my 88 lxi. i have a pace setter header allready and i have the custom pipes made up but i was wondering, what all do i need to modify to make it all work properly. (fuel rail, bigger injectors, ect.) also i was wondering, if i ran a small enough turbo, could still use the oem style pistons?

88accordhb
05-16-2005, 10:07 PM
http://3geez.com/showthread.php?t=37169

Heikki
05-17-2005, 05:46 AM
Hi..

I have Accord with A20A4 and turbo. http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/719519

- I didn't do anything about fuel rail (do i need? - i thinks no.. but.. ??)
- I bought a bigger fuel injectors. New injectors are made by bosch (4 small holes and they are ~350ml/min (80% & 3.0bar))
- Fuel pressure regulator, buy new and be sure that you get all that fuel pressure what you need! (this was one problem which slow me about 2 weeks before i figures what was wrong)
- Intercooler, this ain't "must have" things, but will make nice race look..

I didn't yet make a motor, i just bolt on a turbo & co. In next winter i will make / upgrade my A20 that i can use bigger pressures etc. More power is needed! :D

Robs89LXi
05-17-2005, 07:17 AM
Hi..

I have Accord with A20A4 and turbo. http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/719519

- I didn't do anything about fuel rail (do i need? - i thinks no.. but.. ??)
- I bought a bigger fuel injectors. New injectors are made by bosch (4 small holes and they are ~350ml/min (80% & 3.0bar))
- Fuel pressure regulator, buy new and be sure that you get all that fuel pressure what you need! (this was one problem which slow me about 2 weeks before i figures what was wrong)
- Intercooler, this ain't "must have" things, but will make nice race look..

I didn't yet make a motor, i just bolt on a turbo & co. In next winter i will make / upgrade my A20 that i can use bigger pressures etc. More power is needed! :D

Wow, that is a very nice setup you have there; be sure to post some more pictures, and please tell us more about it. You say that is a bolt on kit? What type/size turbo is it? How much boost are you running? Tell us more about the computer too, please.
Oh, and :welcome: to 3Geez!

Robs89LXi
05-17-2005, 07:23 AM
i am getting ready to fabricate a rear motor mounted turbo for my 88 lxi. i have a pace setter header allready and i have the custom pipes made up but i was wondering, what all do i need to modify to make it all work properly. (fuel rail, bigger injectors, ect.) also i was wondering, if i ran a small enough turbo, could still use the oem style pistons?

This is something I've also considered. Where do you plan to mount the turbo? If you have some pics of the piping, please be sure to post them (or send them to [email protected], and I'll host them for you). What size is the exhaust piping, and how do you plan to route the charge piping back up to the engine?

Heikki
05-17-2005, 11:46 AM
Wow, that is a very nice setup you have there; be sure to post some more pictures, and please tell us more about it. You say that is a bolt on kit? What type/size turbo is it? How much boost are you running? Tell us more about the computer too, please.
Oh, and :welcome: to 3Geez!

yeps, thanks for your interest! If i use funny words or miss spells, i'm sorry, english isn't my best skill..

My point is with "bolt on kit"-thing, i didn't open and modify my motor yet. Just few new parts like: exhaust manifold (custom made), turbo (hybrid), intercooler (custom made) and "pressurepipes" (custom made too) and ofcourse new full exhaust gas pipe (2.5" from start to end of car) (custom made). With those i needed to change & add few sensors (mostly needed for new ECU).

My turbo is basicly made by Mitsubishi, but it is modified. I don't remember exactly which kind of hybrid it is but it is almost like TD04. And I cant find my note anywhere just now.

My new ecu is made here from finland. (http://www.tatech.net/ -sorry, only finnish). It is fully real-time programmed with computer. Awesome! This is my secret weapon how I can keep this car running like dream. I may give this car for my mother-in-law's shopping - and she is awful driver! :) Tatech is almost like this Hestec (http://www.sci.fi/~hestec2/english/aindexE.htm) but little bit cheaper and better.

I use now 0.4bar, but nothing seems to be problem, so i try to rise it a little. Maybe A20A4 can handle 0.5-0.6bar with standard parts. Can't know without trying (and yes, i have 2 other A20A4 blocks waiting). I don't have any clue how much i have power now in use. Im sure that it is a little more than orginals because acceleration from 120-180km/h makes you chuckle!

And about pictures.. I just take a few more. I will put them to cardomain's website very soon.

Heikki

Edit: Ok, I modified & add more pictures on cardomain's website..

Elijah
05-17-2005, 03:55 PM
Glad to see another A20 turbo out there. Need some more specs on your ECU how adjustable is it? Has it gave you any troubles yet? I ran 10 psi last year without an intercooler Im gonna run 12 this year with one. I thin you can easily go to 0.7 bar

AccordEpicenter
05-17-2005, 04:02 PM
his intercooler setup looks nice, elijah you need somthing like that

Elijah
05-17-2005, 04:39 PM
LOL you dont like mine?

3gmodifier
05-17-2005, 09:19 PM
i plan to mount it right obove the rear sub frame. the exhaust comes right up and to the side a little bit in between the axle and sub frame. (close fit) the down pipe will come off the turbo to the right then a sharp bend down and back over to the left to continue to the rest of the exhaust. as far as the intake inlet and charged pipe, i dont know if i am going to have some custom pipes made or run some type of bendable material, but there is definity space to have everything in there. as far as fuel pressure regulators, is there any for our 3g's.

Heikki
05-17-2005, 09:29 PM
Glad to see another A20 turbo out there. Need some more specs on your ECU how adjustable is it? Has it gave you any troubles yet? I ran 10 psi last year without an intercooler Im gonna run 12 this year with one. I thin you can easily go to 0.7 bar

0.7bar sounds vvvveeeeery fun! I need to get magnetic valve and then i can test stuff. Intercooler drops pressures but makes air "heavier", so that 10psi to 12psi may be good start. And bigger is better :)

You asked about that Tatech Ecu. I find an demo-version from they www-pages. Direct link: http://www.sohva.org/~tikkis/demo/tatech.exe or you can go to http://www.tatech.net/ and then click with mouse "TEKNISET TIEDOT" -page (it means: technics specks) and then click picture of computer ("LATAA ILMAINEN DEMO" - means download free demo). There come one selfunzip-file. Unpack it somewhere and run Tatech_4_3411_DEMO.exe. It ain't install anything or make any chances anywhere. Just test it and you can delete it like any files.. This program is ENGLISH!!! So you can try it and you can see what i can do with this ECU in realtime! If you have more questions, ask me and I'll try to answer. It's easier with that way..

Heikki

Heikki
05-17-2005, 09:45 PM
i plan to mount it right obove ...

Your turbo install-planes are just like mine car was done. So i can recommend: "go for it!". No bendable materials, only aluminium pipes with small peaces of silicontube are reliabilities with this kind of use. Go and check my pictures and you can see how those pipes can be done. And if you ain't add intercooler, doesn't matter only you need to modify is a little bit longer pipe down turbo to up.

Go look AccordEpicenter's car (http://www.sounddomain.com/memberpage/250993/4) you may see how it can doo too. Differences in short (i quess): I have bigger intercooler (size is like radiator, from down to up) and my intercooler in and out are in same side, than "Jason's Honda". You can see that differences about boostpipes.. Which solution is better in technically, i don't know..

Heikki

Heikki
05-17-2005, 09:55 PM
I check your car from sounddomain.. Why you have fuel pressure regulator unconnected? You lost some of performance so stupid way - or is that hose out only in picture..?

And where i can get samekind of adjustable camwheel that you have! Can you check who made that and type number / serial number etc that i can order samekind of piece of art..

Heikki

Edit: And when i ment you, i ment AccordEpicenter's car!

3gmodifier
05-23-2005, 09:42 PM
i was also wondering, what about all the vaccum lines that go to the box to the left. going from vaccum to forced induction, is there some thing that i need to do with those lines or do i just leave them alone?

3gmodifier
05-23-2005, 09:47 PM
Heikki, you said that your set up was done how i want to do mine, do you you have an intercooler, if so how did you route the charge pipes from the turbo to the cooler. do you have pictures anything can help.

Robs89LXi
05-24-2005, 11:45 AM
Have you looked at his website?
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/719519
He has a front mounted turbo and intercooler.
How much research have you done on rear mounted turbos, and why have you decided to go that route?

3gmodifier
05-24-2005, 02:53 PM
i decided to go this route becuase i already have header and i thought i'd just try some thing a little different. if i went front mounted i would have ditch the header, waste of money if i ditch it

Heikki
05-26-2005, 12:33 PM
i decided to go this route becuase i already have header and i thought i'd just try some thing a little different...

I don't know how much it effects but i think that if you install your turbo on rear, turbo will get cooler exhaust gas'es. I meens "volume" of gas is smaller and may that effect how your turbo works, how fast it reacts and so on... Probably exchaust gas'es pressure is same, so you can't even get any help to your lost horses with this way.. Front mounted turbo and intercooler, that is workking receipt!

I get today my own car workking even better.. Now i can tune my turbo-boost with lapptop! 0.3bar to 2.0bar and i have now (in use) 0.8bar and it still ain't knock! Super! Now my honda kicks!

Heikki
05-26-2005, 12:39 PM
i was also wondering, what about all the vaccum lines that go to the box to the left. going from vaccum to forced induction, is there some thing that i need to do with those lines or do i just leave them alone?

Yep, remove them! Everything from "the box on the left" has need to go, if you install new ecu. You ain't need any stock sensors! (ok, it defendly deponds what kind of stuff you will install - but like mine, i don't have any of those orginalls stuffs left - i only use that box for base of some new equemtns)

AccordEpicenter
05-26-2005, 01:04 PM
yeah the btm wasnt hooked up in those pics either. Both are hooked up now though

Heikki
06-03-2005, 05:36 AM
offtopic..

Hihii, i was yesterday visiting on dyno.. 172.1kW and 372.3nm torque! Quite impressive numbers at first try. On test i saw that orginal fuelpump can't handle high rpm's with those snozzles what i have. Pressure is ok, but volume drops. Motor can't get enought fuel and lambda-values goes too small.. So there are some cheap horses available !!!

Here i come, 300hp! :)

Robs89LXi
06-03-2005, 06:45 AM
Very nice. Are you driving this car daily? How drivable is it? Please post the dyno sheet if you have one too. I'd like to see where your boost comes in. Keep up the good work!

Heikki
06-04-2005, 03:58 AM
Very nice. Are you driving this car daily? How drivable is it? Please post the dyno sheet if you have one too. I'd like to see where your boost comes in. Keep up the good work!

Yeps, Aerodeck is my daily car! My wife have own car and this is my car, and if we need to go together somewhere, we will go with Honda!

How driveable is it? Very good, it works like stock turbo when i drive nicely - and when i press more gas-pedal then it runs like any car with big tbo! With this car i can smoothly accelerations from 1000rpm to 6000rpm with any gear and doesn't matter how deep or fast i press gas-pedal result is same - fast or SO FAST acceleration! :) Secret weapon for so good action is my realtime programable ECU - that is worth of every cent! (there was somewhere direct link for manufacture). It doesn't matter how good your turbo, manifold or snozzles etc. are if your motor-controler is piece of shit - full car will be piece of shit! Trust me on this! :)

Dyno sheats are so unprofessional that i don't like release them. Dyno was so old that results are taken with pen and paper, then moved to MS Excel.. Maybe when i get new fuelpump installed, I will go check other dyno-deck. But for tip, over 300nm torque was available on 2200rpm to 5300rpm. And motor can't get enought fuel (if pressure is 0.9bar) from 4800-> So there are some unreleased horsepowers available :)

Robs89LXi
06-04-2005, 05:03 AM
Yeah, I agree with you completely; engine management is the key ingredient to turbocharging, especially older cars like ours. I am planning to do an OBD-0 to OBD-1 conversion, and running Uberdata for fuel/spark management, but have also been toying with trying the TEC-3 using their direct fire units (DFU) later. Uberdata is free, so that will be my first try, but come tax return time, you never know :).
The next concern to me though will be turbo sizing. I want something that will hit boost early (2500-3000 RPM) and peak around 4500-5000 RPM. I do not want to have to wring out the engine to reach max boost, as most of the driving I'll be doing will require mid range punch. Like 3Gmodifier, I too am planning on mounting my turbo behind the engine. Living here in Texas requires having an A/C, so the lack of room up front does not give me much choice. Rear mounting will allow me to keep that, and keep my engine cooling efficiency up as well. This will complicate the turbo sizing problem though, as I have to somehow figure in the slight loss of exhaust gas speed. Any thoughts (anyone)?

Heikki
06-05-2005, 02:48 AM
..Any thoughts (anyone)?..

What do you think about MegaSquirt? That is cheap to build (clearly available to make yourself) and there seems to be quite good support available. I might to try that if I could deside my ecu now.

My Mitsubishi TD04 tbo wakes in action just about 2500->. In dyno i saw full 0.9bar pressure 1500rpm but it never be in true situation so high. My tbo is Mitsubishi TD04, 14/19 hybrid. It is allmost like turbo in those new Volvo's V70R. I can honestly recommend thatkind of tbo. Now when i get my own workking correctly it seems that it might be littlebit bigger but then we lost of everyday-use. When you drive nicely with other peoples on highway, 100hp is enought, but when you drive like nuts, nothing is enought :)

If you install your tbo on rear you probably lost intercooler too. Exchaust gasses have long way to tbo, they are cooler and volume drops, so it meens less power to activate tbo. Pressuder air have sort way to manifold but if you want use intercooler (if you need AC to yourself - you need intercooler to your car!) you have again long distances. It meens even bigger laggs for moment to you press gaspedal to your car wakes up. And honestly, if you want use pressures like me, you need an good intercooler, bad intercooler not enought. If outside is about 20C temperature, my engine gets 0.9bar pressured air with 30-35C temperature. It is other keyfeature how to use big pressures without engine knocks.

So, i thinks that if you install your tbo in rear you can't get easilly so good performance and userfriendly action like if you install tbo in front of engine. This is my thoughts, may be somethging wrong.. (if so, please tell.. )

Heikki

Robs89LXi
06-05-2005, 04:18 AM
Yep, I already know about the loss I'll have to take in mounting it in the rear, but like I said, I don't really have much choice because I have to keep A/C and fans. I've even thought about remounting the A/C unit in the rear, but that seemed to be even more trouble, and cooling would be a definite issue. I don't think the loss will be as big as people make it out to sound though, as it will be only another maybe four to five feet of pipe. With a good design on the header and the least amount of curves (and there should not be much), I think the flow can be kept pretty good. Design will be key to overcome the length issue; kind of like the difference with a log style and a tubular style turbo header. The log is obviously shorter, but yet it does not perform as well as a tubular design. Add to that 4-2-1 bonus, and I think it will be okay. Bottom line again is that I just don't really have much choice.
I have a solid platform to start with, as phase 1 of my project was a bottom end rebuild, so I am using forged internals, copper gasket, and studs. I've measured it at the junkyard, and I'm pretty sure I can get a DSM SMIC in my front fenderwell for initial cooling. I'm toying with some other cooling ideas for later :), but it should be enough for starters.
I've briefly looked into the Megasquirt, but I will research it some more. Again, all that will depend on the sucess of the OBD conversion, as I want this to be completely street legal.

Heikki
06-05-2005, 04:56 AM
..I want this to be completely street legal.


Ahh, you are right, good design can help you! You can get better workking exchaust manifold like N/A-cars have - it may help you get more torque (just 4-2-1 style) at start than what normally people gets with short exchaust manifold & tbo.

In curiosity, how much A/C kompressor & stuff takes room? Do you have picture available? I have normal Honda's stock radiator and fan with intercooler. All what needed to doo was littlebit tilt upper-attachments. Cooler in front fenderwell sounds cool but how easy install that may be?

You want your car street legal, hmm, may this be a first time when I see that somewhere is harder to get modified car to street legal than here in Finland? My car is street legal, all I need to do is inspect a motor vehicle with bigger power. Maximum power is orginal plus 20%, so it meens in my case that i need to lower in that situation my tbo-pressures in 0.3 bar that i can get maximum 146hp out of front wheels. Rest hp's are for outlaws :) Do you need use in kalifornia catalyst? Here in Finland, if car is taken use in 1987 or later it needs catalyst in inspecet's visitors but my car is 1986's model I don't need even that! :)

Robs89LXi
06-05-2005, 05:49 AM
Yeah, Houston has pretty strict emissions requirements and are done anually. Catalytic converters are a must, so I will be running as huge a diameter exhaust as I can to help reduce the back pressure. The nice thing about a rear mount turbo though, is that at inspection time, I can just install a bypass pipe and intake to get back to stock :).

w00tw00t111
06-05-2005, 10:58 PM
Yeah, Houston has pretty strict emissions requirements and are done anually. Catalytic converters are a must, so I will be running as huge a diameter exhaust as I can to help reduce the back pressure. The nice thing about a rear mount turbo though, is that at inspection time, I can just install a bypass pipe and intake to get back to stock :).
I live in H-Town too and didn't realize that there was a restriction on ponies. Do you know off hand what it is?

I am planning on doing a turbo set-up on my 3g. I had honestly not even thought of clearance issues! :uh: Stupid Stupid. Like you w/o my A/C I would be screwed even though most of the time my window is down I just don't want to completely lose it for when July hits us. :( When you say mount the turbo in the rear do you mean like past the oil pan? What about using a slim radiator like the Pro dragsters use? Man this suxors! What about using two teeny tiny Turbos like the DSM's use stock and mount those "on top" of the motor? Kind of like the Supra TT if you have ever seen a stock set up. The turbo is mounted up and to the left and right of the engine. You might need an after market hood but better then no A/C. Then you would have access to the IC much easier.

If you were to go the rear set up what would you use for a manifold? Would it be like an actual header that just has a mounting for a turbo?

Kinda off topic Robs89LXi did you happen to go to Texas Showdown? You planning on going to Formula D? Can't wait for that to come!
Hopefully my :rice: mobile will be out of paint by then!

3gmodifier
06-05-2005, 11:06 PM
robs89lxi, you know what, thats the one thing i didnt think of yet, making it so the set up can just be unbolted and bolt the spacer back in for smog checking. good idea, its pretty strict out here too, especially when it comes to turbos, it is so hard to get a set up legalized.

Heikki
06-06-2005, 12:53 AM
Hmm, if you have rought limits on polution & etc, its even more important that you have good engine management! If you have good system, you can easily make streetlegal-setup and usefull-setup for your engine. In street legal system you choke fuel injenctions so little that your car aint' pollute and there ain't too much power. When you want go outlaw, just download a new software to ecu from laptop and drive. If you start makeing system where you install and uninstall hardware between inspections - you will quite soon get bored and sell your car.. It's too hard to make - i quess :)

And catalysts, there are much of different racing catalysts what ain't make resistance at (allmost) all. Use them with big exchaust pipes and street legalize is easy.

Heikki

Ps. My car is today inspected and noted at one of street legal vehile! All i needed to do was lower pressure at 0.3bar and littlebit modify fuel injenction map.. there is now (in paper) 106kW :D

Robs89LXi
06-06-2005, 05:36 AM
Woot: There are no HP restrictions in Houston. For the mounting of the turbo, yes I'm going to be looking at mounting on the back of the engine towards the tranny. It will be tight, but I think there is enough room. Still in the planning stages right now. The other suggestions you mentioned might also work, but there would be a lot of plumbing involved and might be quite a nightmare. Plus, I like to keep things hidden :).
No, I don't go to any car events. Again, I like the sleeper.

Heikki: I am hoping that I will be able to make it an easy to reach/disassemble, flanged unit, and since inspection is only once a year, it would be a small price to pay to change out pipes to get it to pass. Like you said though, proper engine management is the first option, but if all else fails, I will rely on the stock setup. Congrats on passing too :thumbup: !

Heikki
08-16-2005, 06:24 AM
i am getting ready to fabricate..

So, how your project is going? Do you have any details etc..?

brandonjracerx
09-14-2005, 04:40 AM
TO THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN LOOKING, THERES A TURBO SET UP ON EBAYMOTORS.COM FOR THE 3GEN ACCORD BIDDING NOW :bowrofl:

BlueBead
09-22-2005, 12:52 AM
my question for those of you in the know is :why not do a rear mount turbo with an intercooler mounted to the rear left of the engine that feeds directly into the intake?? I would think short piping for both would be better wouldn't it??
I'm looking at doing something simple and clean... I want more ponies soon

89T
02-11-2012, 07:41 PM
I am bumping every old turbo thread. Is it running or gone.