Hi-Performance Engines

[ICEMAN707]

Hi-performance engine builders:

In their catalog the HP rating for say, a Stage II 2.0L/2.2L 4cyl Honda engine, is 228 hp. Is that pretty standard for that stage of tune for ALL 2.0L/2.2L 4cyl Honda engines despite DOHC, VTEC, or whatnot? Or does the type of engine matters? Like an 89 Accord a20 (120HP) versus a 97 Prelude h22a (190HP)... Isn't the h22a a superior engine due to dual overhead cams, vtec, ECU tuning, aftermarket support, etc?

They say it doesn't matter what the engine block is, the internals will be changed 100% to attain that hp. But wouldn't the h22a make more power instead? Or 228hp is their standard HP that usually attain for a Stage II tune no matter what the block is since the internals will be changed to their specs? I just wanna make sure which engine would be a better candidate before I fork out $5500 (for Stage II) to have an engine built. 228hp Stage II A20 sounds real nice. If built for turbo, 300hp is within reach.

I dunno, maybe I'm confusing crank HP with wheel HP. I think the h22a would have more HP to the wheels simply cus there are so many aftermarket add-ons/bolt ons that you can put on the engine to make it past 228hp. And even though both engines will have the same HP for Stage II, I think the h22a would have a much broader powerband cus of more displacement for low end and VTEC for top end. Not to mention all other goodies like headers, LSD, intake manifolds, stronger Stage II & III axles, etc.

But in all, I think a bulletproof 228hp A20 would be good enough costwise and daily driving. Good enough to spank some v8 cars out there. Turbo it to about 300hp, you would annihilate them. It's all about power-to-weight ratio. It's just that $5500 is kinda steep and I dunno if I wanna settle with the a20 since only the a20 bolts in without serious swapping mods. Then again, you'd be spending close to $9000 for a built h22a engine in a 3gee. You figure $5500 to have it built, $1200-$1500 for the engine itself, plus $$$ for other stuff needed to fit that engine in a 3gee. It's better off starting with a Prelude that h22a came in.

JDM b20a would be nice to have built, but with the same HP, why bother? Especially if maintenance parts for the JDM b20a can't be found at your local parts store.

~Nino

[Justin86]

that price is pretty steep and I don't think they can live up to the 228 hp rating. maybe with some newer honda engines. but with the A20 I'd say 200 is possible but how streetable it is would be up in the air.

[ICEMAN707]

Stage 2 is the streetable trim and is 2x more reliable than stock. I'm more concerned about the HP figures though. Maybe 228hp is just an average figure. Some make less, some more. But they did say 228hp is the ballpark figure with all the upgraded parts and machine work they'd do to the engine. No matter what type it is. I guess only way to find out how much hp the a20 will make is to have one built up. But somewhere in the back of my head tells me the 2.0L/2.2L Honda engines that make close to Stage II 228hp is the DOHC, VTEC ones, particularly the h22a since it's the only one that came in VTEC, b20's never did unless you have them built up a CRVtec motor with a b16a head.

Their built shortblock is $1820, the $5500 is the complete engine.

[AccordEpicenter]

for $5500 i could be making well over 400whp and still have money left over to buy a set of Volk TE37s and tires, new

[mouchyn]

in order you get the A20 up to that magical 228hp mark, you would have to rebuild the entire engine. It wouldn't even be a honda engine anymore. The only thing left that would be honda would be the block itself -- if they will even work on an iron block.

the head would have to be completely custom built with bigger valves, better springs, huge-ass cams, really good porting, etc.

Then you would have to make an intake manifold, throttle body, exhaust header, and exhaust from scratch and design it to flow perfectly with the engine. External programmable ignition and ECU will be required to make the whole thing work properly and to make the most power out of it. You'll have to fnd/make/use a lighter flywheel, too.

Then, once the engine physically exists, you won't be able to start the thing on pump gas. I bet you would have to raise compression so much that even 93 octane gas wouldn't be completely stable...

[FyreDaug]

Well if you think about it, N/A you could get close to 200 for much cheaper than that on an a20, bored/stroked/high compression will give you a significant power increase, then you throw a cam and some head work and its doable.

But for power on a small engine like this you would be better to boost. Im boosting mine with a full engine soon, Ive got the whole engine to build now and Ive got the summer. I plan to hit the magical 228 mark atleast. Then again, im staying carbed just because. Aslong as you are EFI and you boost, even stock engine Im sure 165 is doable.

[mykwikcoupe]

so when you say on any honda engine. Ok so if your thinking old engines like ours with 120 hp. 228 is alot dont get me wrong. But say you send them a ITR engine stock trim 190 hp. there going to charge 5500 for minor work to get it to 228. No way. Say the 1850 is for short block. granted all the power is in the headwork but to add almost 3grand to intake,head,exhaust wow thats a freakin rip.

Anyway Id say like most. Placeracing isnt around anymore so you may find the Bseries mounts maybe worst case make your own and save som bucks. Your a smart guy. So from there its sky limit right. Or go JDM b20a, parts are available just not easily. Oreder 3 kits like rob. Im going to order a few more just in case. At least Ill have them in my garage waiting for me if anything does happen.

Youd be starting with DOHC, 160 hp so the 228 mark is 40 hp closer. Pop in some nice pistons do some major headwork on the side work wth the typicals, engine mamgment, intake, exhaust Id say 228 is very attainable N/A for say 3k. Turbo 300 easy

[ICEMAN707]

in order you get the A20 up to that magical 228hp mark, you would have to rebuild the entire engine. It wouldn't even be a honda engine anymore. The only thing left that would be honda would be the block itself -- if they will even work on an iron block.

the head would have to be completely custom built with bigger valves, better springs, huge-ass cams, really good porting, etc....

Yeah that's what I'm talking about. Pretty much everything in the engine is custom built/machined. Like you said, the only thing left HONDA is the block and head which are also custom machined. I guess that's why they say it doesn't matter what block it is, as long as it's 2.0L or 2.2L. Everything inside is their own custom made stuff.

The intake manifold isn't included, you have to figure that part out yourself like the headers, ecu, etc. The price is just for the longblock. But i think Gude makes a pretty good intake manifold for our cars or just swap on a performance b-series manifold.

I dunno, I was just wondering if engine type did matter. For $5500 built engine, I'd rather start off with an engine with already alot of HP. Like a Supra TT 2JZ engine. Well, thanks guys for your thoughts. I guess I'll just buy myself a regular remanufactured engine for $950 and call it a day. This car isn't for racing anyways, it's for show.

[RobT5580]

I wouldnt spend that kinda money on a package that is not comparable to our engines none the least. If you want to build an engine buy all the stuff yourself (rods, pistons, bearings, etc) and find a shop that is well known with hondas such as ERL, Benson, RLZ etc and get it done right for half that. From my personal machine shop experiences i will never settle for any shop. My next engine will be built by RLZ or ERL for sure.

[ICEMAN707]

I wouldnt spend that kinda money on a package that is not comparable to our engines none the least. If you want to build an engine buy all the stuff yourself (rods, pistons, bearings, etc) and find a shop that is well known with hondas such as ERL, Benson, RLZ etc and get it done right for half that. From my personal machine shop experiences i will never settle for any shop. My next engine will be built by RLZ or ERL for sure.

Rob this shop is PAECO, they've been around since 1964. They are one of the best.

[FyreDaug]

PAECO is charging 5500? They cant be the best then, unless they quadrouple double check everything and the fees are in labor. Then thats still a rip.

[ICEMAN707]

PAECO is charging 5500? They cant be the best then, unless they quadrouple double check everything and the fees are in labor. Then thats still a rip.

Yeah PAECO is pricey. It takes them 3 months to build your engine. That's 3 months of research, development, and testing labor cost mostly.

[Vanilla Sky]

well, the big parts of the research have been done around here... if i were you, i'd do a rebuild like racer x did...

oh, and a friend of mine with a 3gee has a really nice head that's almost finished... you should come up and see it next weekend

[mykwikcoupe]

well Im not disputing the price since my thunderbird engine alomst 10k in parts. hence the reason Its going to be biult last. Its the HP rating. If it was generic like 90 hp increase on the wheels for 5500 ok cool Id get it but like the H22, if you start with most of that HP whats the price justify? I dont get the logic. If the cars strictly for show you need to find the next big craze and go that route. A friend of mine has a SR20DET in his Z3. Looks like it came stock that way. Same thing its show but it will go. Custom is where its at. If this is for your 87 let me know Ive got a gude intake and TB.

[Vanilla Sky]

i tend to agree... you're just not gonna get that kind of power out of this motor for that money... not unless you're doing the work yourself

[ICEMAN707]

what if the a20 is built to be bullet proof to handle up to 40 psi of turbo boost like using the Darton sleeving process, cryo-freezing the block, titanium rods and wrist pins, forged chromoly low comp pistons, and other high strength parts etc... would that be more logical for $5500 and the 228+ HP claim? or is the price still too steep?

[FyreDaug]

Well 40psi of boost will put you well over 400hp ;)

[ICEMAN707]

since the research about that a20 performance has already been done, what do some of you guys consider to be the best combo for an a20 build? make sure you mention n/a or boosted. thanks guys.

[mouchyn]

since the research about that a20 performance has already been done, what do some of you guys consider to be the best combo for an a20 build? make sure you mention n/a or boosted. thanks guys.

you can't ask a question like that without describing what you want out of the engine. Without a goal, people will just post up their personal wishlists and "recommend" that to you.

if you want an engine that gets 30 mpg, will run for 250k miles, and get you from A to B, just do a regular rebuild of the stock engine.

If you want something in the 200 WHP range, start with the H22. For the cost of pushing the A20 up to 200WHP reliably, you could swap in the H22 and hit your mark and still have room to improve. This is, of course, naturally aspirated.

If you want to go turbo, you really have to set a HP mark and stick to it. Then you can build to match that decision and save yourself some dollars.

so, what do you want out of the engine? like, exactly. Then we can help you decide the best way to get there.

[ICEMAN707]

i guess i want to turbo the a20 to about 210hp without reliability issues. got any good setup suggestions for that?

[mouchyn]

you could do that with about 10-12 psi. With proper fuel upgrades and dyno tuning, that's possible on stock internals.

If you want to get anal about it, custom forged internals would be good. You don't have to sleeve the A20 since the block is iron. The crank is good up to 500+ HP. You can have it spin balanced at a machine shop for $75 or so, but other than that, the crank is fine. Get JE, or whoever, to make you some custom forged rods and pistons. Have a machine shop port the A20 head to flow a little better, too. Most of the work required for a mild turbo setup like what you want is labor -- IF you have someone else do the work.

I could reliably get to 210 WHP for less than 5 grand. That includes turbo parts, engine parts, suspension parts, and brake parts.

Remember: you need to upgrade your suspension and braking systems if you upgrade the engine's power.

[FyreDaug]

Actually, if you want something thats efficient and lasts a long time, make it less restrictive, put an intake and exhaust on it, youll get more performance out of it too. Though there are limits between economy:performance, you can ride the limit and get both sometimes. Also, for efficiency, get something to push your powerband up higher, the less power you make the less fuel you burn. Of course that doesnt count all the time, but when you are cruising on the highway and stuff it will help, mainly for coasting. During accel however, you may end up burning more gas by having to rev it more to get going. Just some ideas I had, nothing concrete so dont quote me on it.

[phrenology]

Doh!

[phrenology]

Yeah PAECO advertises alot of shit. When I got their catalogue I thought they were the bomb. Have you actually called them and talked to them about your project? It took me three weeks of talking to them about making a set of A20 headstuds, they gave me the run around and finally told me "it wouldn't be cost effective to do". What kind of answer is that. If they wanted to charge in upwards of $500 for a set of studs they should have quoted me and then I can tell them if it's "cost effective"...you shouldn't advertise that you can make stuff and then say well we can't really.

So I think they are not the performance house they claim to be. If they farm out simple machining like making studs then I seriously doubt they would design and make all of your internals in house in 3 months with assembly. PAECO says alot of things. There was another user on here that was waiting to get their A20 back from PAECO I think. I dunno I have my doubts. Please someone prove me wrong and show me a PAECO rebuilt A20, I don't care if its Stage 1 NA or a Stage 5...I have yet to see either. I paid almost $1200 for my rebuilt A20 locally and that wasn't anything special or race modified. I think the A20 is a great engine its proved its durability many times over but IMO its not the best choice as a race engine. I'm just doing a clean bullet-proof rebuild that I can upgrade later when I make it to California. BTW I'll post pics of my engine as we drop it in today!!! Yay, finally my motor has a home! :gun:PAECO
:lol:

[ICEMAN707]

you could do that with about 10-12 psi. With proper fuel upgrades and dyno tuning, that's possible on stock internals.

If you want to get anal about it, custom forged internals would be good. You don't have to sleeve the A20 since the block is iron. The crank is good up to 500+ HP. You can have it spin balanced at a machine shop for $75 or so, but other than that, the crank is fine. Get JE, or whoever, to make you some custom forged rods and pistons. Have a machine shop port the A20 head to flow a little better, too. Most of the work required for a mild turbo setup like what you want is labor -- IF you have someone else do the work.

I could reliably get to 210 WHP for less than 5 grand. That includes turbo parts, engine parts, suspension parts, and brake parts.

Remember: you need to upgrade your suspension and braking systems if you upgrade the engine's power.


Yeah if you've seen my car, I've pretty much covered the suspension and brakes part of it. Now I want more power to see how the car really handles. I like the sounds a turbo car makes, so that's what I want to do. 210hp is good enough for me for daily driving and at least some fuel economy. Precision Engine rebuilders has their premium remanufactured long block listed for $945. I was thinking about that then I started thinking I should just go turbo and be much happier. Although turbo stuff adds up fast and I'm not sure I could put up against a 250hp Neon SR-T.

I know in terms of accessories I need:
- MSD box & blaster coil
- colder plugs
- thicker plug wires
- Turbo timer
- Boost controller
- bigger injectors
- upgraded fuel pump
- fuel rail
- fuel pressure regulator
- OBD-1 conversion and chipped ECU tuning (Zedyne, Hondata, etc.)
- copper headgasket
- low comp forged pistons (stock compression good for 12 psi?)
- balanced and knife edged crank
- t-off additional oil lines from the oil sending unit to the turbo and head
- oil pressure guage
- oil return line from the turbo to the oil pan
- oil cooler
- intercooler
- mild camshaft
- adjustable cam gear

....anything else I left out besides the usual turbo hardware?

Is the transmission ok besides upgrading to a stronger clutch and lighter flywheel? You think I would need an LSD? You think the B-series 10-bolt LSD's will fit?

[RobT5580]

The only problem with turbo is the small stuff adds up fast. But if i were you boost is the easiest way to make power and the A20 block is probably the best to use. Johnny O has run over 30 psi on an A20 block and the blocks take it no problem. The problem is engine management so that is where you need to research.

As for PAECO they may be really good but why spend that money when you can go to a honda specific place that already has the research behind them like Benson, ERL, and RLZ. ERL wanted $1300 to do a full long block with bearings, rings etc and a 3 week turn around time. When building an engine the most important part is clearances when looking for reliablility.

[mouchyn]

When building an engine the most important part is clearances when looking for reliablility.

clearances and balance :)

the key to turbo longevity is tuning. I know people in my area running 15 psi turbo setups on stock internals just fine. years and years of boost and the engine is still strong and reliable. As long as you spend the bucks to have the car dyno tuned at least once a year, you can run any turbo setup forever.

boost isn't what kills engines -- improper mixtures kill engines

[mykwikcoupe]

210 easy. teh bottom end stock will do that. Go get a small turbo say t3 42/48 and your good for 200-250. You can go with the afc hack or ODB1 upgrade with uberdata either way cost is about the same. You dont have to go overkill Id suggest going ewith a remote electric exhaust valve off the turbo so when your on the street turn it on so it uses the typical exhaust. When your showing or racing turn it off so it dumps clean off the downpipe. Its called a screamer pipe and sounds wicked cool and a little loud and hairy

[TheWatcher]

Iceman,

More power to you, I personally would like to see you try to put in the PAECO Stage II.

Alot of what a hear in this post is complaining and speculation. 400+ hp for $5500??? Bullshit! Post a pic of the dyno and I will believe it! Otherwise, it's just BS speculation. And the stuff about turbos ... valid to a point, but just think of where you can go with a turbo after the Stage II.

I totally think you have one of the nicest setups on the board. And it's funny to hear people recommend that you need to pay $2000-3000 for a good paint job, but recommend AGAINST $5500 for a 220 hp engine upgrade that will make it twice as reliable (per your post).

I say ask PAECO to post a pic of a dyno of an engine close to the A20, and go from there. With the JDM B20 so difficult to find, and the H22 officially a bust (no one on the board has one, and only one picture of a H22 on a 3g exists), it would be nice to see where this goes.

Good luck in whatever direction you go. As I have said before, I believe your path of upgrading the brake and suspension package first, then the engine, is the way to go.

Peace.

[ICEMAN707]

Thanks alot buds. I will look further into all your suggestions and soon in the future I will show you guys what I came up with. The searches help, but a good discussion like this one is better since new ideas come up everyday. Keep them coming!

[Vanilla Sky]

like i said, do a budget "race" rebuild like racerx did, and turbo on top of that if you want a fast reliable 210 WHP... not that hard of a thing to do when you have a solid engine to work with... i would recommend using a virgin block to rebuild, though... virgin just means it's not been rebuilt before... you would want the virgin block in case you need to bore it out some... with a rebuilt block, you may be to the service limit on the bore size, thus making that block unusable... i have what i suspect to be a virgin block up here, but i'm saving it for myself... they aren't hard at all to find, even in perfect condition... just look around for running parts cars with lower mileage...

and with you in orlando, a new member in cocoa, me in palatka, and a couple more in the general area, we should do a minimeet at the junkyard in daytona... i believe there's one old member here that goes out there weekly, and they seem to have good deals and a large inventory... PM me if you sound interested in that...

[ICEMAN707]

what is it exactly that racerx did for his build? im sure mine is a virgin block. i might try rebuilding my block soon. but first and foremost, im gonna have to do a 5 spd swap now that i'm done with the brakes. i'm thinkin' exedy clutch kit and aluminum flywheel. do you know if there are any LSD's that fit our car? it's a 10-bolt differential.

[ICEMAN707]

Well, I emailed PAECO. Here's what I got:

In your catalog the HP rating for say, a stage 2 engine, is 228 hp. Is that pretty standard for that stage of tune? Or does the type of engine matters? Like an 89 Accord a20 (120HP) versus a 97 Prelude h22a (190HP)... Isn't the h22a a superior engine due to dual overhead cams, vtec, ECU tuning, aftermarket support, etc? Wouldn't it make more power instead? Or 228hp is your standard HP for a stage 2 tune no matter what the block is? I just wanna make sure which engine would be a better candidate before I fork out $5500 to have that engine built. - Nino

"You are correct in saying that the H-22A engine is superior and will produce more than the stated HP listed in the PAECO catalog. However, the A20 engine is very mildly tuned to start with, whereas the H22A is moderately tuned for high performance as it comes from the factory. This means that a much larger increase can be made over stock with the A20, which tends to narrow the gap considerably. Hope this info helps." - Carl

[Vanilla Sky]

still not very business-like to me... go to a local and well-known shop and have them build for you

and here's a link to the rebuild he did: http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=42658&highlight=rebuild

[TheWatcher]

Iceman,

Why are you asking for comparison with a H22? The H22 is an urban legend, no one on this board has one. There was one picture posted, the equivalent of a picture of a UFO. A much more realistic comparison is the JDM B20A, but they are hard to come by. At least there ARE JDM B20A's on this board (props to all the B20A guys). :rant:

There are several of threads of people claiming they are going to complete a H22 swap, or theoretical discussions on it's feasibility, but no one has done it (unless you count the imfamous single photo of the 3g belonging to the "mystery" person). :thumbdn:

If you're thinking H22, maybe you should just go turbo.

Well anyway, good luck to you on your engine upgrade.

Peace.

[ICEMAN707]

well no one said a body kit could be made to fit a 3gee properly back in the day either but i did it. im sure no one thought an h22 would fit a crx either, but somewhere someone did it first and now it's no longer an urban legend. the 3gee is no different. just cus people fail, doesn't mean it can't be done. i've looked at 4gee accord with h22 swaps and they are no different other than wiring and mounting points. use the 4gee accord wiring and ECU, find out if the axles fit too since both accords are about the same width, if not, keep researching. i think the problem is no one has the time or patience or an extra vehicle to undergo such experiment, not to mention money. but i'm sure someway somehow, it can be done. not easily, but it can be done. if i had an h22 laying around somewhere and a 3gee parts car i can experiment my uncharted metal fabrication skills/welding skills on, i'd do it. it took me almost a year to fiberglass like a pro, but i stuck with it and got it done. i guess i'm one of those people who like to start things that people say is difficult or can't be done.

[RobT5580]

The more and more i read and meet new people the B18's seem superior over the H22's as far as reliablility and options. The H22's lay down nice power but have poor trannies and less options. If you really want to look into a swap look into a GSR or LS/Vtec. If your looking for nice power i honestly would boost the A20. I really regret it day by day for the simple reason the blocks are solid and with a good o-ring job and tuning you can boost it really high and safely. Only drawbacks are its still a custom job but your no stranger to custom stuff.

[ICEMAN707]

thanks rob, i also look to your b20a turbo setup for inspiration on maybe doing the same thing to an a20. ls/vtec or crvtec sounds real nice too. i guess i can just shut up now and get some work started. lol.

[TheWatcher]

well no one said a body kit could be made to fit a 3gee properly back in the day either but i did it. im sure no one thought an h22 would fit a crx either, but somewhere someone did it first and now it's no longer an urban legend. the 3gee is no different. just cus people fail, doesn't mean it can't be done. i've looked at 4gee accord with h22 swaps and they are no different other than wiring and mounting points. use the 4gee accord wiring and ECU, find out if the axles fit too since both accords are about the same width, if not, keep researching. i think the problem is no one has the time or patience or an extra vehicle to undergo such experiment, not to mention money. but i'm sure someway somehow, it can be done. not easily, but it can be done. if i had an h22 laying around somewhere and a 3gee parts car i can experiment my uncharted metal fabrication skills/welding skills on, i'd do it. it took me almost a year to fiberglass like a pro, but i stuck with it and got it done. i guess i'm one of those people who like to start things that people say is difficult or can't be done.

Well, I didn't mean to say it couldn't be done. By all means, go ahead if you want! BTW if you read the threads for civics w/ H22 swaps, you'll find out they have lots of problems, like axles snapping off and such.

I think Rob's advice is solid. The B18 is lighter than the A20 iron block, so you will have better handling, and turbos are bolt on, so much easier than a H22 swap. And since it's coming from someone who has successfully completed a B20 swap, rather than someone like me (who only reads about stuff), you know it speaks volumes.

Peace.

[RobT5580]

thanks rob, i also look to your b20a turbo setup for inspiration on maybe doing the same thing to an a20. ls/vtec or crvtec sounds real nice too. i guess i can just shut up now and get some work started. lol.

If i could start over i would have probably done an A20 because its a strong base. Or a B18 simply due to the aftermarket support. When you get into doing the majority of the stuff custom then it gets expensive and your on your own when you have trouble. But i stepped into this project and even though im dumping a rediculous amount into im determined to get the car running right and some dyno runs in to show what the B20A can do.

[ICEMAN707]

the thing about b18 Ls engines is, you can find them in 90-93 tegs. and those cars cost just about as much as buying a 3gee. plus the teg is lighter. you are better off with a teg. if i go b-series on a 3gee, maybe a crvtec is better. at least it's different. just use the Ls' cable tranny on the b20 instead.

i used to have a teg then sold it. it needed a buncha repairs to be done that i couldn't do cus all my money is focused on finishing the 3gee right now. maybe i'll buy another one that i could use daily and be reliable until i finish the 3gee. then make that teg fast and race it (at the autocross) and just keep the 3gee strictly for show purposes (after i mod the engine, of course).

[Accordtheory]

I feel like i should throw my 2 cents into this.. 'PAECO' is complete bullshit. 228hp with Better reliability, still street driveable? The only way you can get a small normally aspirated engine to have that amount of hp with good driveability is variable valve timing, aka VTEC. (and a decent 2 stage intake is helpfull, unlike the 88/89 A20 garbage) If you use a cam profile that will allow that much power on a non variable valve timing engine, like the a20, your lower rpm range (idle, mileage, and emissions) will all be nowhere near as good as stock. I have Never seen or heard of an n/a a20 with Anywhere Near that level of power. It is an expensive accomplishment to get that out of a B18C, and that has variable valve timing, 16 valves, and it is built to rev to 8k rpm! To get that out of an A20 would really be insanely difficult, due to its 12 small valves, (compared to the VTEC heads) Long ass, rev sabotaging 91mm stroke, and pathetic 1:5 rod/stroke ratio. To get power remotely close to 200hp, you would have to use pistons with a much higher static compression ratio, stronger rods, an aftermarket intake manifold for an engine designed to make power (B18C, B18C5) a decent header, bigger valves and associated headwork, a cam with much more lift, duration, and overlap. Then you would have an engine that could make good upper rpm power. (But would NOT last as long as a B series at that speed, due to the higher piston speeds caused by the longer stroke, and the high piston side loading caused by the shitty rod/stroke ratio, in addition to other factors..)
My car right now, with a stock A20 with 12psi, will pull away from cars like the SRT-4 and the WRX, etc. However, I'm still not happy with it, because I'm boosting such an outdated engine. I should have dropped in a turbo B series. 280hp, stock internals, 14psi is completely doable. (B18b) Not to mention better fuel economy and better handling, because of the aluminum block. I say drop in the newer engine, and let honda do the years of r&d for you. And if you want more power, just dip into the massive aftermarket support, which is something you sure as fuck cant do with the A20!

[ICEMAN707]

Yeah I hear ya man. I'm doubtful too. I have yet to see the real dyno numbers on a PAECO A20 from either here on 3geez or Preludepower.net to feel confident about it. I'd rather just buiild the heck out of the A20 to handle up to 50 psi and boost it at 40psi. That's how you can double the HP. But 240hp N/A for an A20 is pretty impossible even with the best parts and machine work done. Boost and NOS is the only way to make at least that kinda power. then again, it's better to spend that kinda money on a newer honda engine that already has alot of power to start off with. A20 was good only as an econo engine back in the late 80's. It can't compete with its younger counterparts.

[Justin86]

Yea turbo is the best option for some good power that won't break your wallet. Some of the stuff Sean was making can still be bought from different places so don't feel like it's a total loss. Shit I might be even start to make some basic turbo kits prob with a air to water intercooler. I could do an FMIC but to run the piping requires a decent amount of stuff to be cut for it to fit, making it not so bolt on process.

[ICEMAN707]

OK, I got another email back from PAECO. He says the a20 will get approx. 200hp N/A after all the work. That sounds more credible.

Nino -
With the A-20 engine you will end up with approx 200 HP in normally aspirated form. Yes, we can furnish the engine in "turbo-ready" form, but we need to know that you are going to put a turbo on it from the beginning and also the amount of boost that you would plan to use.
- Carl

I say 200hp for $5500 still isn't worth it. But at least you will have a more reliable engine and it will fit right in. For $5500 I'd rather have them build it for turbo so it can be made to have more HP - like 250hp-350hp depending on amt. of boost. BUT, the h22a or a built CrVtec is a better platform to start off with cus you already have close to 200hp start with.

BUT then again, who knows how much boost the B or H series can handle fully built compared to the a20. The a20 might not surpass the B & H in N/A form BUT it might surpass the B & H in boost form simply cus it has the iron block that can handle more boost. If you build the heck out of the a20 then cryo-treat it... should be able to handle almost 50psi of boost. I dont think I've heard any B or H engine handle that much boost even fully built.

Now, the a20 will need some serious tuning help to run that much boost. That's where the problem is, the ECU and timing. Meaning a custom ECU setup (OBD1), and timing control like MSD box and custom cam gear. And since we can use a B-series intake manifold, the fuel rail, fuel pressure regulator, and injectors should be easy to find as having a B-series.

There is hope for the a20 after all. It's an engine to be built for boost, not N/A. I think I remember seeing a thread somewhere with a pic of an a20 with a factory turbo? More like a design print really than an actual pic.

[Accordtheory]

I'd rather just buiild the heck out of the A20 to handle up to 50 psi and boost it at 40psi. That's how you can double the HP.
I think I have about about double the hp with 12psi. Like I said, I can pull on SRT-4s. You just need to keep everything efficient.

['A20A3']

All I know is that if I was killing SRT4's and WRX's I wouldn't be giving two shits about how "out-dated" my engine was.

[ICEMAN707]

I think the final verdict for A20 power is: BOOST it. My friend told me about cryo-treating the block and other engine parts. He says it makes the metal 4x stronger. But once it's cryo-treated, it can't be machined cus the metal will be so hard. It's best to build up the engine first as much as you want it to be then cryo-treat it. With high-strength parts, machine work, precision balancing, then cryo-treating, the a20 should be able to take 40-50 psi of boost no problem. Fuel management is easy once you get a hold of an aftermarket b-series manifold and aftermarket b-series fuel system upgrades. It's the Engine Management and Timing you have to worry about. A custom OBD-1 ECU-hack/chipped setup and custom adjustable cam gear to have more timing retard adjustment would be a must, as well as other turbo engine management accessories. After that, dyno it and have a good tuner tune the engine to boost 40-50 psi. Would be nice to see the HP an a20 would make at that much boost. Problem is...how would you fit a big ass turbo that can boost that high? Big turbos on a 4cyl usually means serious turbo lag. Maybe you have to run smaller twin turbos, one at the manifold and one in the downpipe. Or if you are happy with 10-15psi, one turbo is good enough.

HERE's AN ARTICLE I FOUND ABOUT ENGINE CRYO-TREATING

What Exactly Does Cryo Treatment Do?

"Everyone has seen a house being constructed," Reed explained. "A footing is poured and the foundation is built. The foundation is cured and stable before the first board is put in place. The foundation helps support the house and keeps everything in alignment. The foundation of an engine is the engine block, and it, too, helps keep engine parts stable and in alignment. All the other parts either go inside the engine block or are attached to it. An untreated engine block is full of stresses that were brought about by all the manufacturing processes necessary in it is production. When the untreated block is run, it becomes hot. The heat and stress combine to cause the block to distort. As the block distorts, it throws other engine parts out of alignment, including the crankshaft, connecting rods, and so forth. Parts that were straight and true as the engine was built and assembled are no longer straight and true when the untreated engine is running. The distortion brought about by the stress con-tributes to reduced performance, uneven wear, and even worse, break-age. Cryogenic treatment relieves the stresses in the block, preventing distortion, enabling the parts to stay in alignment, and helps to prevent breakage."

Another important change brought about by Cryogenic Treatment is the closing of the grain structure. Reed gives the example of thinking of untreated parts as "open grained," which can be illustrated by spreading our fingers apart. The open areas between our fingers are voids. In this state, parts are not as strong or abrasion resistant as they can become following treatment. In order to illustrate the grain structure as being closed, we need only use our other hand and squeeze our fingers together. Cryogenic treatment makes the parts more abrasion resistant and more durable. Don't confuse this with making the parts harder. Proper cryogenic treatment does not make the parts harder and that is good. Why? Because parts that become too hard also become brittle and are more likely to break.

Basically, cryogenic treatment relieves stress, helping prevent distortion and closes the grain structure, making parts more abrasion resistant and more durable.

How Long Does it Take?

Numerous computer controlled processors of varying size and shapes are used at 300 Below to meet the needs of their customers. One particular processor has treated as many as four disassembled 1,710 cubic inch Allison aircraft engines at once and also huge stamping dies for industry. "Processors are loaded on Tuesday afternoon and the treated parts are shipped out on Friday," Reed said. "Processors are loaded again on Friday and the treated parts are shipped out on Tuesday. Yes, it does take a long time to do it right. If it is worth doing, it is worth doing right."

How Much Does it Cost?

Nearly all the parts in a 6-cylinder or 8-cylinder automotive engine can be Treated for $560 or a 4-cylinder automotive engine can be treated for $450. That diesel in your hauler or pulling tractor is more expensive, but the treatment cost is only a fraction of the engine cost. 300 Below is a brand new technology that is just making inroads in Sprint Car racing and if they can sell race teams on the idea of saving money, they might just be able to make a huge impact.

In the next issue of FlatOut, we'll tell you exactly which parts can benefit from cryogenic treatment and exactly how each part is affected.

What Is the 300 Below Process?

It is an exceptional method of improving the physical and mechanical properties of various materials. Unlike so-called "cold' treatments that are generally limited to temperatures in the -110 degree range, 300 Below is controlled between 300 and 320 degrees below zero. Also, unlike techniques that involve use of cryogenic liquids, 300 Below is completely dry.

The chilling cycle provides ample time for the material to adjust thoroughly to the progressively colder environment. Time in the low temperature range is long enough to establish an orderly arrangement of crystals, increase internal bonding energy and achieve a structural balance throughout the mass of the material. The slow, gradual warming cycle is controlled to bring the material back up to room temperature without disturbing the basic uniformity of its transformed and stabilized molecular structure.

While the 300 Below process is now being applied to parts and products made of many materials, it has been widely used to improve the properties of high speed, high carbon/high chrome and other steels. By inducing virtually complete transformation of retained austenite to martensite, it eliminates the need [for tempering at temperatures high] enough to cause a loss of hardness. And, because improvements produced by 300 Below extend through the material, one treatment lasts the life of the treated part, regardless of any subsequent finishing operations or successive regrinds.

[AccordEpicenter]

at 12psi you should be able to shit on wrxs and srt4s like nobodys business. Its easier to make more power on stock internals with B series engines, thats a given, but the complexity and cost of the engine swap make the a20 with forged internals an easier and more straightforward task (at least i think so). I dont think youre going to need to cryo treat the block or anything like that to make it strong enough, just use some studs in the head and bottom end, spec everything out/balance everything, keep the stock bore (boring it out weakens the cylinders) but good fasteners and good rods/forged pistons should get you 500+ hp reliably at 30 ish psi, but you might need some headwork/cam/intake manifold to make it all work. Youll have to swap to obd 1 but thats not too big a deal. Hondas run forged cranks from the factory, so theyre pretty strong, kinda like the block.

[ICEMAN707]

How long have you had your turbo setup? What exactly does your setup consist of? If you don't mind sharing. Got any pics? I'm always interested in turbo 3geez, but unfortunately not many of them on the board.

[AccordEpicenter]

shes been together for probably 8 mos, but its been stored for a few mos during the winter. I have probably 5000 miles total on boost, not too much, but its not my daily driver and im always working on it, lots of little issues im fixing, but it should be just fine. Ive hit as high as 12-13 psi, but i need more tuning.

My setup i posted in this thread with pics: http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?t=37969&highlight=turbo

[ICEMAN707]

without a vtec lobe, im sure the stock cams aren't sufficient enough at that psi. what grind do you guys recommend for say 12-15 psi?

[Justin86]

for a cam nothing higher then a 272. with the turbo it would be best to have a smaller duration then what you have for NA. You don't want as much overlap with the turbo, so more like a 250's would be ideal, but some people still go with the 272 and make tons of power, the best thing is do have more lift then stock, it will make up for a low duration cam. I belive Sean was talking with Colt to make a cam just for turbo apps.

[AccordEpicenter]

yea what ever happend to that?

[ICEMAN707]

Is your Tasha a turbo'ed 3gee beast Justin? It's long overdue, show it! hehe.

[Justin86]

what my little secret project, he he he, you'll see when I bust out the pics. ;)

I belive if you call Colt they should be able to hook you up with a spec turbo cam.

[Oldblueaccord]

[QUOTE=ICEMAN707]

He says it makes the metal 4x stronger. But once it's cryo-treated,
it can't be machined cus the metal will be so hard.

"endquote

Quote:

Cryogenic treatment makes the parts more abrasion resistant and more
durable. Don't confuse this with making the parts harder. Proper
cryogenic treatment does not make the parts harder and that is good.
Why? Because parts that become too hard also become brittle and are
more likely to break.


You didnt read or didnt understand what you copy and posted?


wp

[ICEMAN707]

That's what my friend says, and what the article says. Two different opinions my friend.

But even still, either way the part is "abrasion resistant" meaning it can't be scratched, let alone cut. You can't machine it once it's been cryo treated.

[Oldblueaccord]

That's what my friend says, and what the article says. Two different opinions my friend.

But even still, either way the part is "abrasion resistant" meaning it can't be scratched, let alone cut. You can't machine it once it's been cryo treated.


Well heres my opinion. Your gonna need more then that to hold 40-50 psi of boost whatever your friend says. O-ring the block at the very least and serveral other things just to keep the head on the block. Theres a limit to just how much of anything can go. I dont think there to many diesel motors running that much boost in stock form. But hey its your money spend it as you see fit and good luck.


wp

[w00tw00t111]

Hey guys. Just kinda wanted to throw my opinion into the mix. I don't know really much at all about the a20. I don't even know the difference between an a20a1 and what car to get an a20a3 from. I do know that several boards that I use to go to they were always getting mad at the n00bs for asking "how much b00st?" and what not. There biggest complaint was that it didnt matter how much boost you could safely run. They said that each turbos boost levels were different. For instance a small A/R with lets say 20psi would be shoving less "compressed" air into the cylinders where as a huge huge turbo with major lag time ath that "same" 20psi would be shoving much much much much more air into the cylinders.
What they always said that you need to ask was "how much Horsepower" can the internals handle. That is the key not necessarily how much boost. 20psi for one turbo might make lets say 300horses where as the bigger turbo at 20psi might make 700hp and that would make it much harder for the block and internals to handle.

Just wanted to throw my .02 cents in. Don't know if this makes any sense what so ever but, I tried to explain myself the best that I can!
:)

[ICEMAN707]

Hmm i dunno if turbo size makes a difference psi wise. All that extra pressure is released via wastegate or blow-off valve anyways. I think the only difference is that the bigger one can produce higher psi simply cus it's bigger. On the other hand, a smaller turbo has less to no turbo lag cus it spins quicker but it's limited to how much psi it can push before it runs out of steam. Once it maxes out, that's all the power you would get out of that small turbo. But maybe you are right, the bigger turbo might be able to suck in more oxygen mixture compared to the smaller turbo at the same psi. But I dunno about turbos much.

Here's a question: You guys think the stock cast iron manifold can be used for turbo if you place the turbo right under it where the downpipe bolts onto using a custom conical collector flange? I've been thinking about that cus from what I see in homemadeturbo.com, that's all they are doing. They make a cone-type collector flange to connect the turbo to the stock cast manifold. And it's cast iron and should be able to handle heat better than welded pipe.

[Vanilla Sky]

you mean like in the downpipe? hell, it might just work, especially with the older 4-1 manifolds

[mr eff]

isn't the stock exhaust manifold tubing only 1.75" wide? i think that would be less than optimal for a turbo application

edit: correct me if i'm wrong, of course. i don't know much about turbo, this was speculation more than a rebuttal

[w00tw00t111]

isn't the stock exhaust manifold tubing only 1.75" wide? i think that would be less than optimal for a turbo application

edit: correct me if i'm wrong, of course. i don't know much about turbo, this was speculation more than a rebuttal
Yeah for us it should be 3" for header back.

[ICEMAN707]

isn't the stock exhaust manifold tubing only 1.75" wide? i think that would be less than optimal for a turbo application

edit: correct me if i'm wrong, of course. i don't know much about turbo, this was speculation more than a rebuttal

I think it's enough to spin a small turbo. A port and polished head can make substantial exhaust pressure to the manifold to spin the turbo, I'm sure. Especially smaller turbo with a smaller exhaust side like a t3/t4 turbo. Besides, it's not the exhaust pressure that really spins the turbo, it's heat. And the cast iron manifold does a better job of keeping heat in, compared to a welded pipe manifold. You only usually have to worry about tubing size after the turbo. From there you go 2.5" or 3". I dunno, I think it's worth a shot.

[military mase]

Iceman if your wondering about the specs of the Colt Cam I bought the stage I turbo tri-flo cam=> primary270dur/384lift secondary260dur/384lift exhaust274dur402lift 2degree wider lobe seperation.They do make a stage II but that would be the wildest you could go and i don't have the specs for that plus the stage II might act funny with the ecu.Right now my engine is in the proccess of a total rebuild. My machinist is the best in town here so i was in luck when he said he would rebuild it. Can't wait till it's done

[ICEMAN707]

thanks for the info mason. i can't wait to see how yours turns up!

[military mase]

It's gonna be a little bit but while it's in the shop i'm ensuring the suspension and tranny is in top shape before it's reinstalled

[modu03]

well... here's a new one...

try swapping in an s2000 motor... 240 horses

i have been examining and playing around with the s2000 at my school... the auto program started a racing league...

anyway... the engine is practically the same size. and obviously you would have to fabricate your own mounts. and then figure out how to get a different tranny on there, but if you really had some money to blow, that would be a fast 3g.

you can buy bolt on superchargers that will bump up the power to 330 hp...

if anyone has the money to build a supercar out of a 3g... this would be the best way... of course, does anyone have enough money to do this???

[ICEMAN707]

yeah right good luck finding that motor. even if you do, that motor is expensive. not to mention it's RWD and no FWD transmission is made for it. it's also a long engine and spins the opposite way much like the k-series engines do. with a comptech or vortech supercharger, it's impossible to make that engine fit. have you seen the s2000 engine bay? you are better off putting that engine in a RWD 1st gen rx7 for cheap or an old RWD 280z cus you wont have much money left to do all the crapload of custom work to get that engine to fit and run properly after buying that engine. part of doing a swap is being cost-effective... and that's not it.

take a look at the engine, it barely fits the way it goes, how would it even fit sideways? also, the engine mounts are located differently since it's RWD engine. so not only do you have to customize the engine bay for the mounts, you have to change where the mounts attach to on the engine block.

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/715000-715999/715913_122_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/715000-715999/715913_123_full.jpg

[Versanick]

actually the f20b (euro type R, and some JDM) isn't far off from the f20C in terms of internals, and can make about the same power. There's also a hydraulic tranny involved. If you're up for it, have fun. Maybe ys1 trannies will bolt onto newer b-motors?

[ICEMAN707]

you are better off with a 2005 JDM Integra Type R K20A which makes about the same HP and it's FWD if you are gonna bother with the kind of custom work/money that involves the F20C.

[w00tw00t111]

you are better off with a 2005 JDM Integra Type R K20A which makes about the same HP and it's FWD if you are gonna bother with the kind of custom work/money that involves the F20C.
That would be awesome except that the cost would be insane. Engine by itself is like $4-5 grand and then getting it to work is much much more. There was a guy in turbo(i think) that dropped one in his civic spent like 30g's on everything just engine wise. Way to much. Like you said it's got to be cost effective!

[mouchyn]

That would be awesome except that the cost would be insane. Engine by itself is like $4-5 grand and then getting it to work is much much more. There was a guy in turbo(i think) that dropped one in his civic spent like 30g's on everything just engine wise. Way to much. Like you said it's got to be cost effective!

i don't think it would be any cheaper than the F20C. that was the point of the comparison. for the amount of work and money you would spend on the F20C swap, you could make WAY more power with the K20.

[Versanick]

Either way, boost is the best way to make things work. Keep in mind that without a turbo, we all have 1 bar (1 atm) approximately of boost, varying very slightly with elevation.

Given this, imagine a car with any turbo at all, and boost at some RPM reaches 7 LB. This means that the air pressure helping to fill the cylinder is now about 1.5 atmospheres instead of 1. Just that amount is a huge advantage. As soon as you start retarding ignition timing (which is the ONLY THING YOU NEED TO DO to run a whole lot of boost, by the way), you lose some efficiency, so you make less than 1.5 times the power.

To run 19.5 or whatever pounds of boost can mean the 4g63 whatever in an Evo can have 276hp and ft/lb. There are 2.3 or so atmospheres of air pressure ready to fill the expanding cylinder space as the piston heads down, and therefore instead of making 150hp, or whatever it might make otherwise with similar cams, n/a advanced ignition timing, and slightly differently ported head, higher compression, and other minor details, it winds up making the 345hp minus retarded ignition timing minus lower compression minus a probably smaller cam (which, by the way, is a great way to make a car super fuel efficient, and yet fast, with a turbo that spools high RPM because of the way smaller cam you can keep, the ignition timing being electronic controlled to act normal at low RPM, and any boost being a fact of already wasted energy that's leaving the exhaust..)

... and so on until 276hp is approximately the product.

You can't make 300whp on 7lb with a 3g unless you have head work and other things already optimized for what extra air pressure is going to be put through. And nothing's wrong with using a ridiculous race cam with a turbo or other boosting mechanism. The cam timing itself is what matters for overlap. That's the other reason a DOHC motor is so much easier and better to tune. A serious drag race turbo cam will be considerably high lift and duration... all the same tricks apply wtih boost as with N/A. You're dealing with more air pressure.

So that 7lb can turn something over 200hp into a 300hp figure, but not 120hp into 300hp. Nor can 12lb.

Boosting is still the best option. Just find a good way to control ignition timing, to be safe. All these imports have come with forged rods and cranks since they started in the US. Cheaper made American cars were made a laughing stock of reliability, partly due to this, and even something like a Mustang had garbage non-forged internals while our 86 econoboxes had them.

Make the most of your motor. Boost like crazy.

[mouchyn]

it's not just ignition retarding. you can retard the ignition as much as you want with 25 psi on the A20 and it will still blow up because of a lean mixture. ignition timing control AND fuel management is the key to boosting success. if you're adding air, you gotta add an appropriate amount of fuel, too.

[ICEMAN707]

Here's a question: You guys think the stock cast iron manifold can be used for turbo if you place the turbo right under it where the downpipe bolts onto using a custom conical collector flange? I've been thinking about that cus from what I see in homemadeturbo.com, that's all they are doing. They make a cone-type collector flange to connect the turbo to the stock cast manifold. And it's cast iron and should be able to handle heat better than welded pipe.

Anyone else got any thoughts about this? I've seen Civic HF, CX, and DX stock manifolds used for turbo with a custom adaptor plate.

THIS (minus the catalytic converter)
http://i20.ebayimg.com/01/i/02/d3/98/ab_1_b.JPG
+
http://i12.ebayimg.com/03/i/04/43/9f/c8_1_b.JPG
+TURBO = BOOSTED

I was wondering if we could do that to ours? It'd be much easier to go turbo if we could. I guess it's worth a try right?

[uzair adil]

Hello ice man 707
i just bought a motor F20 pgmfi dohc for my 87 accord
Now i want a turbo up grade so what should i go for eg CT 26 or ...
and also how can i increase the psi of my stock engine

need your advise dude
thanks

[thegreatdane]

Hello ice man 707
i just bought a motor F20 pgmfi dohc for my 87 accord
Now i want a turbo up grade so what should i go for eg CT 26 or ...
and also how can i increase the psi of my stock engine

need your advise dude
thanks

well have you worked out how youre going to stuff that engine down your engine bay?


ICEMAN, I think the space down there on the A20 is to tight to have a turbo sitting there on an adapter plate.

[uzair adil]

Well i have sorted it out it will fit in
now i need a inter cooler turbo to be fitted in as well
and i dont know which one

[ICEMAN707]

ICEMAN, I think the space down there on the A20 is to tight to have a turbo sitting there on an adapter plate.

maybe a short 2.5" heavy guage steel pipe with the appropriate flanges could work instead of a collector? have it bend towards the passenger side where there is most room for the turbo?

UZAIR,
are you sure you got the right engine? i didn't think there was a DOHC F-series except maybe the s2000's. i dunno how you got that engine to fit and found a FWD transmission for it, but if you did manage to achieve that you should have the extensive mechanical know how to turbo that thing instead of asking me. otherwise i call BS on your F20 swap.